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Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots

Revelation 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The city will be Rome where blasphemy (the apostate church) resides and rules over the kings.

Revelation 17:16-18
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Hello Eric.

It's nice to have a chat about eschatology and the interpretations that seem so popular these days.

I asked you to validate your idea that "the harlot ... rides and controls the beast".

You replied with Revelations (17:16-18) which states 'the woman...great city...which reigns over
the kings of the earth'.

If you read those verses carefully Eric, they do not say that the harlot controls the beast itself.

The harlot only reigns over the kings of the earth, she does not reign over the beast.

The kingdoms she reigns over are only the horns on the heads of the beast.

Can I ask you Eric again to attempt to validate the idea that the woman controls the beast?
 
(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12

Hello Eric.

I was reading your post # 20 and noticed the following idea that you presented.

"(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12".

Here Eric is the first line of your quotation.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed...

This line does not say Eric that a rapture occurs before the antichrist receives power.

It actually states, 'for it will not come unless...' conditions one and two are met.

The day of the Lord 'will not come unless' the apostasy and the antichrist take place.

'for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first'

The apostasy must occur before Jesus returns Eric, not the other way around.

Read line three again and get back to me Eric.
 
The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12


(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4


(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15


Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.

What is your opinion?

I am uncertian of your number 2 (2thess 2:3-12) the reason i say this is because when you break in at verse 3 you miss a big part of whats actually being discussed here, which is, the people whom this letter was written to had been decieved by the trickery of teaching the day of The Lord had already come. when you place this into context the scripture takes on a whole new meaning. please read:
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—[a]asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

this clearly says the day of The Lord is after the man of lawlessness is revealed. well at least thats is my understanding of it.
now concerning your number one (Ephesians 4:8-10) I have heard this teaching before many times however, due to the fact I exsist after this period I havent ever given it much thought or prayer. I do however see maybe this is what is being said but other scriptures give me a mixed understanding on this say for instance enoch. it says he was "translated" up to be with God. enoch definitly came before The Lords ascending. perhaps he was in Gods eyes a special case. and what of the prophet uhm, i get the two mixed up elisha and elijah. i think it is elijah that a chariot swooped down and took him. (i have also heard enoch and elijah are the two witnesses, just an assumption tho) I just chalk it up to being beyond my understanding.
and as for much of the rest of your post God has not given me understanding on some of the scriptures, at least not in chronilogical order. which is why i was eagerly picking your brain.
 
I am uncertian of your number 2 (2thess 2:3-12) the reason i say this is because when you break in at verse 3 you miss a big part of whats actually being discussed here, which is, the people whom this letter was written to had been decieved by the trickery of teaching the day of The Lord had already come. when you place this into context the scripture takes on a whole new meaning. please read:
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—[a]asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

this clearly says the day of The Lord is after the man of lawlessness is revealed. well at least thats is my understanding of it.
now concerning your number one (Ephesians 4:8-10) I have heard this teaching before many times however, due to the fact I exsist after this period I havent ever given it much thought or prayer. I do however see maybe this is what is being said but other scriptures give me a mixed understanding on this say for instance enoch. it says he was "translated" up to be with God. enoch definitly came before The Lords ascending. perhaps he was in Gods eyes a special case. and what of the prophet uhm, i get the two mixed up elisha and elijah. i think it is elijah that a chariot swooped down and took him. (i have also heard enoch and elijah are the two witnesses, just an assumption tho) I just chalk it up to being beyond my understanding.
and as for much of the rest of your post God has not given me understanding on some of the scriptures, at least not in chronilogical order. which is why i was eagerly picking your brain.

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Matthew 5:13-16
13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

As salt and light restrain germs, the Holy Spirit in the church restrains evil.

Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Holy Spirit who is in each born again Christian will never leave us nor forsake us. Therefore when He that letteth is taken, we the church will be taken also! Praise God I am ready.

The antichrist will not be revealed untill we are taken away with the Holy Spirit.
 
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John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

What does reprove mean? Are you suggesting the universalist doctrine that ALL will be saved?
The Roman Catholic church will be defeated by the beast.

Rev 17:16; The ten horns and the beast you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her abandoned and naked. They will eat her flesh and burn her up in a fire.
 
What does reprove mean? Are you suggesting the universalist doctrine that ALL will be saved?
The Roman Catholic church will be defeated by the beast.

Rev 17:16; The ten horns and the beast you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her abandoned and naked. They will eat her flesh and burn her up in a fire.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I believe the Christian churches of every denomination will believe the lie of antichrist as judgment from God and will form an ecumenical church centered in Rome on the seven mountains. The ecumenical church is the harlot. The fear of the people will give the church power over the kings.
 
The antichrist will not be revealed untill we are taken away with the Holy Spirit.

if that be so how do you explain verse 7? I included some previous lines of scripture to be able to see which beast its talking about.

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

If we, the saints, as it says in verse 7, would be gone, how then will the antichrist make war with the saints and overcome them? to be sure that it is the antichrist look at verse two and verse 4. how would you explain this passage?

now as far as what you said in 2 thess(it was in another post) i see that already happening in the world. people believing the lie. I mean look at all the stuff people believe today, and i dont mean just in the church. even the bible says in the last days there will be a great falling away i believe its in the same chapter you quoted as well as 1 tim chapter 4.
 
If we, the saints, as it says in verse 7, would be gone, how then will the antichrist make war with the saints and overcome them? to be sure that it is the antichrist look at verse two and verse 4. how would you explain this passage?

There will be many people saved during the tribulation.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
There will be many people saved during the tribulation.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


wait what? I am not sure what you are getting at. my question to eric e, was based on his comment in his post which said "The antichrist will not be revealed untill we are taken away with the Holy Spirit."

and so then i asked for eric to explain verse 7. "if that be so how do you explain verse 7?" which is :
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

my point is that the antichrist and the saints would be here on earth at the same time according to this verse 7.

I totaly agree that many will be saved out of tribulation because of matt 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
If you look into the meaning and root in the greek of the word "trimmed" in matt 25:7 you can see this is a picture of revival.
 
On the negative side, we can easily see in the Scripture that no where it refers to a "church of Rome in Jerusalem", or "church of Rome in Ephesus". It is always "church in Jerusalem", or "church in Ephesus". Indicating that no particular Bishop of another region had authority over a different region.

I don't see how the naming indicates that. They did not identify themselves as Roman Christians in Jerusalem, but Christians in Jerusalem in union with the Bishop of Rome. The Pope does not have authority over other regions, the local bishop does. The Pope only removes bishops.

On the positive side, scriptural evidence for autonomy is that In Revelation Jesus speaks a specific message for each of 7 churches as if they were autonomous bodies, and each church has its own lampstand.

You are saying that because seven local churches each with their own set of problems are addressed separately, then they were autonomous? That does not seem to follow.

He does not address a single "mother church" in Jerusalem, Rome or anywhere else.

He does not mention other churches, so they didn't exist?

Also, the apostles appointed elders in every church and every city had its own elders (Acts 14:23, Titus 1:5, Acts 15:4, Acts 20:7, Phil 1:1). This doesn't mean the churches acted independently of each other, or did everything in isolation. But the authority and governance of each church rested with the elders of that particular church and no church of a different city.

Which is how the Catholic Church has already practiced it.

[qute[We note that this was prior to the existence of denominations, which is another topic of discussion, and so "church" and "city" go hand in hand - churches were defined by locality and not by method, founder, doctrine, creed or practice (as in the case of denominations). [/quote]

All the Churches believed the same thing. Denominations began when the reformation began disagreeing over how to do things and what to believe.

Thus, the Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination, although it is a man-made organization with a centralized authority structure which is foreign to the teaching of Scripture and practice of the early church.

I don't think most people understand how the Catholic Church functions. The Church consists of self governing churches which are in union with the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome or 'Pope' does not make decisions for local churches.

And just as the Roman Catholic church is the religious extension of the Roman Empire

Not sure what connect one can make between the two. The Catholic Church was persecuted by the Roman Empire. Only with Constantine was it made legal. The Roman Empire ended in 1453, 400 years after the separation of the Orthodox Church. During that time, the Empire was Orthodox, not Catholic.

The true church is not "of" a place, doctrine,creed, tradition or practice, but of the person of Jesus Christ alone, as it is referred to as the "Body of Christ". Given that the true church has no national or cultural identity apart from Jesus Christ, it cannot be a true church if it claims any other identity.

I don't know where you are getting that the true Church would not have doctrines, creeds, traditions, or practices. First of all, all groups have these, it is impossible not to. Second, scripture tells us of outside groups that do believe different things. Scripture would suggest that to believe different is to be outside.
Also, creeds were used in the very early Church. They were recited before baptism as an expression of the faith they wished to join.

So we can say with a high degree of certainty, that the moment a church claims to be "of" something or someone other than Jesus Christ, it is really not of Jesus Christ, and therefore not His true church.

You essentially identified the true Church as professing nothing and practicing nothing, no?

An organization of centralized power and authority (as in the Roman Catholic church) did not come into existence until later and caused by a number of political and religious circumstances. The year when Rome began expanding its influence was the year when it was declared that the Bishop of Rome has the sole legitimate claim to Petrine authority. As this idea of the Roman church having influence over the other churches is completely foreign to the Bible, it must have been not long after the New Testament was completed.

The bishop of Rome has exercised authority over other bishops, not churches, since the early years.

Regarding councils, I suppose the fact that there were councils necessary, is evidence itself of the autonomous nature of the individual churches.

For Catholics, the Councils recognized the official teaching authority of all bishops who are tasked with teaching and preserving the faith.

Nonetheless, the councils were called together by the Christian Roman Emperors, who enforced the decisions of those councils with the state church of the Roman Empire.

Councils came from Christians, the Roman Emperor made the transportation possible. The decisions were not 'enforced'. The bishops make declarations of things which had always been taught. If a bishop did not teach what was believed, he was declared no longer a bishop. This was done even during the persecution (that is, before the councils).

Hence the councils themselves were a mechanism by which the Roman Empire could control the religious affairs of all the regions.

The Roman Empire had nothing to do with the councils except to make them possible.

Not recognizing Roman papal authority was a clear mark of differentiation between the Orthodox Churches, who largely maintained the original autonomous nature of the churches, being several self-governing ecclesial bodies.

Not sure what you mean - the bishops of the Catholic (and what is now) Orthodox Churches participated in the councils. The east always recognized the Pope as the head of the Church, but they never worked out what that entails. The Churches seized communication in the 11th Century. The Orthodox Church existed mostly in the Roman Empire.

So the churches which think themselves to be churches but which are not, will comprise the "Babel" in the sense of mankind building a manmade structure in order to exalt himself to the sky, to reach heaven, as it were. And the "Babylon", in the sense of being a mixture of having spiritual appearance yet being worldly in nature. Hence we get the number 666 which indicates the man-made false trinity, rather than 777 which symbolizes the perfect Trinity. The number 6 and number 7 are different by only 1, indicating that the man made religions try to get close to God but never quite get there. All religions are man made attempts to reach a God far away in the heavens. But true Christianity is about finding life, by eating and drinking the body and blood of the Saviour who became close, available and reachable to us all, especially to those who humble themselves like a child. Matt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. John 6:53 " "Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don't have life in yourselves.". Religions are about how you behave, what you do, or don't do, but Christianity is about what and how you eat and drink.

I don't think Churches ever 'thought for themselves' - the bible shows they always communicated, helped, and rebuked each other when necessary. The first council was said to be at Jerusalem, by the apostles.
 
Not sure what you mean - the bishops of the Catholic (and what is now) Orthodox Churches participated in the councils. The east always recognized the Pope as the head of the Church, but they never worked out what that entails. The Churches seized communication in the 11th Century. The Orthodox Church existed mostly in the Roman Empire.

The churches in the early times were autonomous, and was never under jurisdiction of Rome. This view is maintained by the Orthodox faith. Catholic Cardinal and theologia Yves Congar stated
"The East never accepted the regular jurisdiction of Rome, nor did it submit to the judgment of Western bishops. Its appeals to Rome for help were not connected with a recognition of the principle of Roman jurisdiction but were based on the view that Rome had the same truth, the same good. The East jealously protected its autonomous way of life. Rome intervened to safeguard the observation of legal rules, to maintain the orthodoxy of faith and to ensure communion between the two parts of the church, the Roman see representing and personifying the West ... In according Rome a ‘primacy of honour’, the East avoided basing this primacy on the succession and the still living presence of the apostle Peter. A modus vivendi was achieved which lasted, albeit with crises, down to the middle of the eleventh century."
The Pope does not have authority over other regions, the local bishop does. The Pope only removes bishops.

Removal of bishops is an act of authority over local regions, therefore not true autonomy in the early church sense.


The bishop of Rome has exercised authority over other bishops, not churches, since the early years.

So the Pope exercised authority over other bishops, and these bishops have authority over regions. Therefore the Pope exercises authority over regions via control of the bishops. This is not supported by Scripture. Firstly, the church of Rome was never any church of significance in the time of the apostles, and the Bishop of Rome was never given any mandate to be in charge of other Bishops, as also not recogznied by the Orthodox faith.

I don't know where you are getting that the true Church would not have doctrines, creeds, traditions, or practices. First of all, all groups have these, it is impossible not to. Second, scripture tells us of outside groups that do believe different things. Scripture would suggest that to believe different is to be outside.
Also, creeds were used in the very early Church. They were recited before baptism as an expression of the faith they wished to join.

My point was not that they don't have them, but that they don't identify themselves by them.

You essentially identified the true Church as professing nothing and practicing nothing, no?

Please read my statement carefully, I said they profess Christ, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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I am uncertian of your number 2 (2thess 2:3-12) the reason i say this is because when you break in at verse 3 you miss a big part of whats actually being discussed here, which is, the people whom this letter was written to had been decieved by the trickery of teaching the day of The Lord had already come. when you place this into context the scripture takes on a whole new meaning. please read:
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—[a]asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

this clearly says the day of The Lord is after the man of lawlessness is revealed. well at least thats is my understanding of it.
now concerning your number one (Ephesians 4:8-10) I have heard this teaching before many times however, due to the fact I exsist after this period I havent ever given it much thought or prayer. I do however see maybe this is what is being said but other scriptures give me a mixed understanding on this say for instance enoch. it says he was "translated" up to be with God. enoch definitly came before The Lords ascending. perhaps he was in Gods eyes a special case. and what of the prophet uhm, i get the two mixed up elisha and elijah. i think it is elijah that a chariot swooped down and took him. (i have also heard enoch and elijah are the two witnesses, just an assumption tho) I just chalk it up to being beyond my understanding.
and as for much of the rest of your post God has not given me understanding on some of the scriptures, at least not in chronilogical order. which is why i was eagerly picking your brain.

eddieb,

Sorry for the delay, I have been sick and busy.
In 2 Thessalonians 2 the day of the Lord is not the rapture or catching up of the church. When He that letteth is taken away, the church and the Holy Spirit will go to heaven. Everyone who has heard the truth of the gospel and said no or not yet to Jesus will be sent strong delusion by God to believe the lie of the antichrist. At that time millions of people who had not heard and understood the gospel will get saved. The apostate church with the help of the antichrist will kill many of the new Christians. At the end of Revelation chapter 17 the kings in control of the earth revolt against the harlot church and take the assets of the ecumenical church and give their power to the antichrist because God makes them.
 
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Hello Eric.

I was reading your post # 20 and noticed the following idea that you presented.

"(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power in the Christian nations. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12".

Here Eric is the first line of your quotation.

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed...

This line does not say Eric that a rapture occurs before the antichrist receives power.

It actually states, 'for it will not come unless...' conditions one and two are met.

The day of the Lord 'will not come unless' the apostasy and the antichrist take place.

'for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first'

The apostasy must occur before Jesus returns Eric, not the other way around.

Read line three again and get back to me Eric.

You are right that the day of the Lord will not come before the antichrist comes but the catching up of the church or the rapture will come before the antichrist is given power.
 
Hello Eric.

It's nice to have a chat about eschatology and the interpretations that seem so popular these days.

I asked you to validate your idea that "the harlot ... rides and controls the beast".

You replied with Revelations (17:16-18) which states 'the woman...great city...which reigns over
the kings of the earth'.

If you read those verses carefully Eric, they do not say that the harlot controls the beast itself.

The harlot only reigns over the kings of the earth, she does not reign over the beast.

The kingdoms she reigns over are only the horns on the heads of the beast.

Can I ask you Eric again to attempt to validate the idea that the woman controls the beast?

When the religious leaders control the kings, they tell the kings what they must do with their countries. I thought this should be obvious so I didn't explain any more.
 
You are right that the day of the Lord will not come before the antichrist comes but the catching up of the church or the rapture will come before the antichrist is given power.

Hello Eric.

Here are some verses that I think you will find interesting Eric.

1 Thessalonians 5
5 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like
labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

What do you believe these verses are saying?
 
Hello Eric.

Here are some verses that I think you will find interesting Eric.

1 Thessalonians 5
5 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like
labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

What do you believe these verses are saying?

It is telling us that the unsaved people will be surprised when the day of the Lord comes.

but we are not of darkness we are of light and we will know when it is near if we watch.
 
Hello Eric.

Here are some verses that I think you will find interesting Eric.

1 Thessalonians 5
5 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like
labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

What do you believe these verses are saying?
The unsaved people will be surprised when the day of the Lord comes.


But Christians will not be surprised if they watch.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
 
The unsaved people will be surprised when the day of the Lord comes.


But Christians will not be surprised if they watch.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Hello again Eric.

In the verses we discussed Eric, there is only one special day that applies to both groups.

It is the same day that Paul applies to both the saved and unsaved.

There are not two separate days mentioned.
 
The churches in the early times were autonomous, and was never under jurisdiction of Rome. This view is maintained by the Orthodox faith.

Catholic Churches are autonomous, but you understand autonomous as meaning one region is completely disconnected with another. Bishops can only be ordained by other bishops. What is given can be taken away.
The Orthodox Church does not believe churches today or back then were 'autonomous' as you view it. Orthodox have patriarchs who appoint the bishops and are the head of their region. They believed the early churches were headed by Rome, but there was no common understanding of what that meant. Rome did demonstrate the ability to excommunicate and remove bishops.

Catholic Cardinal and theologia Yves Congar stated[/FONT][/COLOR]
"The East never accepted the regular jurisdiction of Rome, nor did it submit to the judgment of Western bishops. Its appeals to Rome for help were not connected with a recognition of the principle of Roman jurisdiction but were based on the view that Rome had the same truth, the same good. The East jealously protected its autonomous way of life. Rome intervened to safeguard the observation of legal rules, to maintain the orthodoxy of faith and to ensure communion between the two parts of the church, the Roman see representing and personifying the West ... In according Rome a ‘primacy of honour’, the East avoided basing this primacy on the succession and the still living presence of the apostle Peter. A modus vivendi was achieved which lasted, albeit with crises, down to the middle of the eleventh century."​


Many in the east, even the very patriarchs, believed that Rome was the head with an ability to remove bishops. I can't comment on the quote as I don't know its context. By autonomous he is referred to the fact that the east ordained its own bishops. Catholics and Orthodox would never say that regions were autonomous which you use like 'independent'. Autonomous means that the local bishop governed the region. Yet, that bishop was ordained by another bishop.

Removal of bishops is an act of authority over local regions, therefore not true autonomy in the early church sense.

In your equating autonomy with independence. By your reasoning, the opposite would also be true - the appointing of bishop by other regions shows lack of 'autonomy'. You might check into the Ecumenical Council where they discuss the status of bishops and their removal.

So the Pope exercised authority over other bishops, and these bishops have authority over regions. Therefore the Pope exercises authority over regions via control of the bishops. This is not supported by Scripture. Firstly, the church of Rome was never any church of significance in the time of the apostles, and the Bishop of Rome was never given any mandate to be in charge of other Bishops, as also not recogznied by the Orthodox faith.

The Pope was able to ordain and remove bishops. The Pope cannot and does not tell a bishop, you must do this and this in your region. He cannot remove a bishop because he does not like his style of governance.

My point was not that they don't have them, but that they don't identify themselves by them.

You said the Church was not 'of' these things, which raises questions. Early Christians identified themselves by what they believed and practiced. Those who did not were not 'of' them.

Please read my statement carefully, I said they profess Christ, nothing more, nothing less.

To me this is an empty statement. Profess Christ what? That He existed? Atheists believe that. That is the Son of God? The devil knows that.
The Church did profess Christ and many other things and rejected people like the Gnostics that professed Christ while not believe the other things​
 
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