Mystery Babylon the Mother of Harlots

[Last Things]

To receive Christ is pretty easy huh?

What does it mean to receive Christ?
People throw around words and phrases with all kinds of loaded baggage. Oh - one just must receive Christ. All while defining internal what that means.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

What does it mean to receive Christ?
People throw around words and phrases with all kinds of loaded baggage. Oh - one just must receive Christ. All while defining internal what that means.

Revelation 3:20-21
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hello again Eric.

In the verses we discussed Eric, there is only one special day that applies to both groups.

It is the same day that Paul applies to both the saved and unsaved.

There are not two separate days mentioned.

Yes the day of the Lord which will surprise the unsaved and be expected by the saved is one day.

But the day of his appearing or rapture and the day of the Lord are two different days.
2 Timothy 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[Last Things]

Revelation 3:20-21
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Still not an answer.

 

[brakelite]

Interesting thread.
Two Roman Catholics who as far as eschatology is concerned are traditionally preterist...a died-in-the-wool-card-carrying futurist...a non-denominational house churchman who sees all organized churches as Babylon...and two other contributors asking pertinent questions and offering pertinent challenges to all.
An unusual and revealing mix when the subject is regarding Babylon...confusion...a sign of the times in itself it seems.

 

[Last Things]

Preterism is not really an accurate description.

Revelation was written to provide answers to guide Christians in the questions they had. There was already a persecution and it was about to get worse. That raises a lot of questions. Why is God allowing this to happen to His people Am I am a sheep for the slaughter? What is the meaning of this? How can I understand seeing my friends, family, and fellow Christians killed? What is the divine plan in this? Will God bring justice? John is discussing current events and things about to unfold as a recognition of their suffering, with a glimpse of the justice to come. That is, we will be victorious. This is all well and good, but what good is this for Christians outside of these events?

Then there is the historical view - that Revelation's symbolism pertains not to current events, but things to unfold. This is rather unhelpful as it leaves Christians to question and wonder what events pertain to what symbolism. It also does not really answer anything, it just says what happens.

In the futurist view Revelation is about the last things to happen in the world, making it absolutely useless for the majority of Christians who have not and will not live at that time. The symbolism is historically replaced with certain world events that prove to be a wrong interpretation. Christians realize that these and such events were said to be about Revelation, but that time has passed, so how can I know what people are saying about our current world events are truly described in Revelation?
Revelation in this view is a guessing game of plugging in one current event or concept into something mentioned in the book.

Why not say Revelation is about the same thing as the other books of the bible? It describes current and near future events to bring comfort and meaning to those that are and will experience them, to offer hope, and for those that live centuries later, provide general values that are relevant in every generation.

 

[brakelite]

Preterism is not really an accurate description.

Revelation was written to provide answers to guide Christians in the questions they had. There was already a persecution and it was about to get worse. That raises a lot of questions. Why is God allowing this to happen to His people Am I am a sheep for the slaughter? What is the meaning of this? How can I understand seeing my friends, family, and fellow Christians killed? What is the divine plan in this? Will God bring justice? John is discussing current events and things about to unfold as a recognition of their suffering, with a glimpse of the justice to come. That is, we will be victorious. This is all well and good, but what good is this for Christians outside of these events?

You have introduced here a subject that cannot be dealt with adequately in this thread
because of its depth and scope. The subject is theodicy. The vindication of God's dealings with man. Is God justified in allowing suffering? Why has God allowed His worst enemy to rule and reign for so long on this planet and inflict such evil on God's creation? Very hard questions to answer, but our faith and trust in our Redeemer tells us that the time will come when these questions will be answered and we will be satisfied with the answers. In the meantime we can content ourselves in His love and watchful care and compassion in our suffering, knowing that Jesus went through every bit as much, even worse, than anything we will be called upon to endure. Truth is an affront to those who are either content with their lot or choose to reject the things of God in favor of the things of man.The true Christian is an offense to those who choose to worship themselves or their idols. "All that would live godly lives will suffer persecution". Whether your take on Revelation helped Christians to understand better these matters I don't know. But what it leaves out is a further 2000 years of very important and vital history in the lives of God's people.

Then there is the historical view - that Revelation's symbolism pertains not to current events, but things to unfold. This is rather unhelpful as it leaves Christians to question and wonder what events pertain to what symbolism. It also does not really answer anything, it just says what happens.

Actually, there is no wonder about the symbolism, as the Bible itself gives its own interpretation of what each symbol represents. The matching of the prophecy with the history then becomes a relatively easy matter. So long as one sticks with the same interpretation and doesn't introduce foreign concepts and ideas such as futurism is prone to do, then we can understand why Jesus said, "I tell you of these things before they come to pass that when they do come to pass you may know that I am He". (John 13:19). By our study of history and lessons learned, we may then more accurately know the future based not on conjecture, but on established patterns and cleaving to the same types and symbols.

In the futurist view Revelation is about the last things to happen in the world, making it absolutely useless for the majority of Christians who have not and will not live at that time. The symbolism is historically replaced with certain world events that prove to be a wrong interpretation. Christians realize that these and such events were said to be about Revelation, but that time has passed, so how can I know what people are saying about our current world events are truly described in Revelation?
Revelation in this view is a guessing game of plugging in one current event or concept into something mentioned in the book.

I agree that futurism is very much a guessing game. God does not expect us to practice clairvoyance in order to understand what is coming.

Why not say Revelation is about the same thing as the other books of the bible? It describes current and near future events to bring comfort and meaning to those that are and will experience them, to offer hope, and for those that live centuries later, provide general values that are relevant in every generation.

Because the book of Revelation is unlike any other book in the Bible, except for Daniel. Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand. One cannot be explained without the other. A thorough understanding of Daniel is essential for any understanding of Revelation. And Daniel is clearly an historicist account of the future. An unfolding of events from the time it was written, all the way down to the second coming. Revelation covers the same period. Both preterism and futurism disacard 2000 years of church history. This is hardly surprising knowing the history that ensued after the early church was dispersed under the pagan emperors, and the true modern source of the preterist and futurist hermeneutic.

 

[eddieb]

What does it mean to receive Christ?
People throw around words and phrases with all kinds of loaded baggage. Oh - one just must receive Christ. All while defining internal what that means.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

literaly it is asking God which is a spirit to come into you. and not only that but allowing him to rule your life. (john 4:24)

the door is your heart. (rev 3:20) in genisis it says God breathed the breath of life into adams nostrils and he became a living soul. when adam and eve ate the fruit it killed their spirit. we know this because God said on the day you eat you shall surely die, but he lived on physically to be 900 or so. His spirit died. we know this to be true because romans 6:23 says For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. When you ask Jesus in your heart this is God reviving this "breath" in you and once more you live spiritually.

one achieves this thru prayer and faith that Jesus is the son of God, was crucified for our sins, and rose again the third day. When I am praying this with someone i always get them to say the words "Jesus is Lord"
Last things have you recieved the Lord?

 

[Last Things]

You have introduced here a subject that cannot be dealt with adequately in this thread

I doubt there are many theological things that a thread can properly address

because of its depth and scope. The subject is theodicy. The vindication of God's dealings with man. Is God justified in allowing suffering? Why has God allowed His worst enemy to rule and reign for so long on this planet and inflict such evil on God's creation? Very hard questions to answer, but our faith and trust in our Redeemer tells us that the time will come when these questions will be answered and we will be satisfied with the answers. In the meantime we can content ourselves in His love and watchful care and compassion in our suffering, knowing that Jesus went through every bit as much, even worse, than anything we will be called upon to endure. Truth is an affront to those who are either content with their lot or choose to reject the things of God in favor of the things of man.The true Christian is an offense to those who choose to worship themselves or their idols. "All that would live godly lives will suffer persecution". Whether your take on Revelation helped Christians to understand better these matters I don't know. But what it leaves out is a further 2000 years of very important and vital history in the lives of God's people.

Revelation continues to be relevant. The persecution never ended. All of scripture reveals Christ, who is timeless, and so, scripture, is timeless.

Actually, there is no wonder about the symbolism, as the Bible itself gives its own interpretation of what each symbol represents.

I don't believe that is the case. That is why so many plug so many different concepts into the symbolism. It takes historical understanding to get at the symbolism.

The matching of the prophecy with the history then becomes a relatively easy matter. So long as one sticks with the same interpretation and doesn't introduce foreign concepts and ideas such as futurism is prone to do, then we can understand why Jesus said, "I tell you of these things before they come to pass that when they do come to pass you may know that I am He". (John 13:19). By our study of history and lessons learned, we may then more accurately know the future based not on conjecture, but on established patterns and cleaving to the same types and symbols.

I see no evidence of historicalism sense the symbols aren't readily interpreted.

I agree that futurism is very much a guessing game. God does not expect us to practice clairvoyance in order to understand what is coming.
Because the book of Revelation is unlike any other book in the Bible, except for Daniel. Daniel and Revelation go hand in hand. One cannot be explained without the other. A thorough understanding of Daniel is essential for any understanding of Revelation. And Daniel is clearly an historicist account of the future. An unfolding of events from the time it was written, all the way down to the second coming. Revelation covers the same period. Both preterism and futurism disacard 2000 years of church history.

Preterism was 2000 years of Church history. OT prophesy primarily dealt with issues of the exile. Hence the connection with Revelation - "mystery babylon".

This is hardly surprising knowing the history that ensued after the early church was dispersed under the pagan emperors, and the true modern source of the preterist and futurist hermeneutic.

Pagan emperors persecuted Christians - they did not influence the beliefs of Christians. Preterism is similar to the traditional belief. Historicalism and futurism were only created in the last few centuries.

 

[Last Things]

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

literaly it is asking God which is a spirit to come into you. and not only that but allowing him to rule your life. (john 4:24)

the door is your heart. (rev 3:20) in genisis it says God breathed the breath of life into adams nostrils and he became a living soul. when adam and eve ate the fruit it killed their spirit. we know this because God said on the day you eat you shall surely die, but he lived on physically to be 900 or so. His spirit died. we know this to be true because romans 6:23 says For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. When you ask Jesus in your heart this is God reviving this "breath" in you and once more you live spiritually.

one achieves this thru prayer and faith that Jesus is the son of God, was crucified for our sins, and rose again the third day. When I am praying this with someone i always get them to say the words "Jesus is Lord"

This began by a statement that one must simply profess Christ- which eventually became receive Christ, which became this post in which you explain what all this means. Proving my point. It is not 'simply' all these 'simple' phrases do is elude to more complicated theologies and theological baggage. Some people love to try and simplify the faith, but what they are really doing is using phrases that are loaded.

The bible says this - that's all you got to do... oh, by the way, let me tell you what the bible means by that....

Last things have you recieved the Lord?

Yes, I invite the Lord every day into my heart. I repent of my sins and realize that He is my only Savior. He has been brought into me through baptism.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

This began by a statement that one must simply profess Christ- which eventually became receive Christ, which became this post in which you explain what all this means. Proving my point. It is not 'simply' all these 'simple' phrases do is elude to more complicated theologies and theological baggage. Some people love to try and simplify the faith, but what they are really doing is using phrases that are loaded.

The bible says this - that's all you got to do... oh, by the way, let me tell you what the bible means by that....



Yes, I invite the Lord every day into my heart. I repent of my sins and realize that He is my only Savior. He has been brought into me through baptism.

Was your salvation by water baptism?

 

[Last Things]

No I was not baptized by John the Baptist 2000 years ago.

I was baptized by the Holy Spirit acting through water based on the merits of Christ.

 

[eddieb]

This began by a statement that one must simply profess Christ- which eventually became receive Christ, which became this post in which you explain what all this means. Proving my point. It is not 'simply' all these 'simple' phrases do is elude to more complicated theologies and theological baggage. Some people love to try and simplify the faith, but what they are really doing is using phrases that are loaded.

The bible says this - that's all you got to do... oh, by the way, let me tell you what the bible means by that....

Did i use a "loaded phrase" ?
the point i was getting to was it is actually easy to recieve/profess/whatever word you wanna use (I am sure Jesus will not be picky) I mean you dont have to Go thru some wierd rituals where an altar is required. It can be done anywhere, on the roadside, in a church, in a house, a jail in a plane. you dont need money, which these days Getting saved is about the only thing you can do with out money. Sure there are others but very few.
Really I dont see whats your hang up on this is. Most phrases are loaded. religious and secular phrases are loaded. as far as theology, well have you ever noticed a baptist and a pentecostal preacher have both gone to seminary but yet each have different points of belief? for example baptists tend to believe in the Gifts of the Spirit but kinda shy away from them, but as for Pentecostals they seem to have more esteem for the Gifts, at least in the churches i have been in. I stick to if the bible says it, God says it.
I personally dont see a difference between the phrase recieve Christ and Profess Christ. if you recieve Chirst you will profess Him and if you profess Him you will have recieved Him. and even more it is actually simple to a believer becuase they have done it already, so some explaination must be had to someone who dosent know.

 

[Last Things]

Did i use a "loaded phrase" ?
the point i was getting to was it is actually easy to recieve/profess/whatever word you wanna use (I am sure Jesus will not be picky) I mean you dont have to Go thru some wierd rituals where an altar is required. It can be done anywhere, on the roadside, in a church, in a house, a jail in a plane. you dont need money, which these days Getting saved is about the only thing you can do with out money. Sure there are others but very few.
Really I dont see whats your hang up on this is. Most phrases are loaded. religious and secular phrases are loaded. as far as theology, well have you ever noticed a baptist and a pentecostal preacher have both gone to seminary but yet each have different points of belief? for example baptists tend to believe in the Gifts of the Spirit but kinda shy away from them, but as for Pentecostals they seem to have more esteem for the Gifts, at least in the churches i have been in. I stick to if the bible says it, God says it.
I personally dont see a difference between the phrase recieve Christ and Profess Christ. if you recieve Chirst you will profess Him and if you profess Him you will have recieved Him. and even more it is actually simple to a believer becuase they have done it already, so some explaination must be had to someone who dosent know.

I believe you used a load phrase because things like 'born again' and 'profess' or 'receive' always entail more theological ideas that what is being expressed. "I was born again" - "Oh, so you did this this this and that?"

 

[Last Things]

Also, profess and receive are two different things. Professing is an active verb, it is what someone does, whereas receiving is passive, meaning the verb is something done onto us.

 

[eddieb]

I believe you used a load phrase because things like 'born again' and 'profess' or 'receive' always entail more theological ideas that what is being expressed. "I was born again" - "Oh, so you did this this this and that?"

So did Jesus also use a loaded phrase here:
john 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

edit: I used this scripture as a refrence to that someone who is not born again isnt alive spiritualy thus has a dead spirit. its hard to explain it to someone who hasnt been born again as you can see from reading in John chapter three. You may need to look up more of the passage to get a better understanding that the guy Jesus was speaking to didnt really get it.

 

[Last Things]

So did Jesus also use a loaded phrase here:
john 3:5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

I don't think you get what I am saying. A loaded phrase is something that appears simple and agreeable but the person understands the phrase in a much more complicated loaded way. Christians would understand the phrase as Jesus described, being familiar with it. But most who go around using that phrase me much more.

edit: I used this scripture as a refrence to that someone who is not born again isnt alive spiritualy thus has a dead spirit.

I think a more proper term is 'spiritually dead' - which means lifeless. A dead spirit implies that the spirit is actually dead, ceasing to be.

its hard to explain it to someone who hasnt been born again as you can see from reading in John chapter three. You may need to look up more of the passage to get a better understanding that the guy Jesus was speaking to didnt really get it.

I am born again (from above). I am not sure what your argument is in this last part. Also, one's view of scripture is based on learning and experience. If people have two different views it isn't because one is saved and the other isn't. If that were actually true, then only one person would be saved, anyone that disagreed with him would be unsaved.

 

[eddieb]

I don't think you get what I am saying. A loaded phrase is something that appears simple and agreeable but the person understands the phrase in a much more complicated loaded way. Christians would understand the phrase as Jesus described, being familiar with it. But most who go around using that phrase me much more.



I think a more proper term is 'spiritually dead' - which means lifeless. A dead spirit implies that the spirit is actually dead, ceasing to be.



I am born again (from above). I am not sure what your argument is in this last part. Also, one's view of scripture is based on learning and experience. If people have two different views it isn't because one is saved and the other isn't. If that were actually true, then only one person would be saved, anyone that disagreed with him would be unsaved.

I think to a point i get what you are saying, but probably not all the way. To me in many instances we are saying the same things just worded a diffrent way. I knew a brother once who was very specific on words. (and he expressed some of the same concerns you are voicing here). I think you probably are too, not that I am saying anything is wrong with that, Just that other people arent and probably dont see it as so important. I really dont want to say "do not care" because i think thats not fair, but for a lack of a better term, dont care as much as say you do. I am only saying this to maybe help you see from someone elses perspective, not that either perspective is wrong or bad, just people use words differently. you say potato i say patato. (i dont really say it that way)

 

[NoHype]

The Scriptures are actually in oppposition to some of that theory.

Per the end of Rev.17 the Babylon Harlot is a "great city" that rules over all the kings of the earth. The first "great city" reference is in Rev.11:8 about the city where Christ was crucified at, i.e., Jerusalem. This is the city which is responsible for the blood of the prophets associated with that Revelation Harlot.

Also, Rev.17 mentions the ten kings (ten horns) of Daniel again, which means it's pointing to the prophecy in Dan.7 about another little horn coming up among them to subdue 3 of the 10, leaving 7. Rev.17 is showing us a structure with all ten kings reigning with the beast king (or "little horn") which gives more info about the Dan.7 structure. That structure can't be found with historical Rome, because it's end will only occur with Christ's second coming per the Daniel prophecies.

Also at the start of Rev.11 John is shown a literal temple on earth with those who worship in it, and the court without the Gentiles are to tread for 42 months, the same timing of the reign of the dragon in Rev.13. Along with that God's two witnesses are to appear there in Jerusalem to prophesy against that, with the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit killing them and leaving their dead bodies laying in the street of Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 days.

So it's very easy to get the understanding about the Babylon Harlot disconnected from those previous Revelation pointers, but that's just what some do. And because our Lord Jesus linked the Daniel prophecies with His Revelation through John, it means the "abomination of desolation" prophecy is part of those Revelation events too.

 

[HarpT]

The great ***** that sits above many waters is the statue of liberty. How many spikes on the crown? The way I remember it there were how many nations involved in putting it together before it was brought here? What makes America a *****? Trade policy with foreign nations. If you do your research in more than one instance God reprimanded and chided with Israel calling her a harlot and accusing her of fornicating with the nations around her. And why was this? Because Israel entered into trade agreements with them which was an abomination to God who had already provided for them everything. And what is the substance of this fornication? The new base economic commodity that determines all power and control in this present system, even above food? What is the wine of the wrath of her fornication? Oil! And America's greedy cup runneth over as she smacks her lips with deceit ("and her smoke ascends forever....") The USA consumes 3 times the amount of oil as the rest of the world combined yearly. And what is the trade deficit to date? 4 trillion? And also the bit about a man having great power but who's power was not his own (in the book of Daniel and Revelation)? A perfect picture of the democratic system and it's elected leaders.

(Think about this the next time you watch "Planet of the Apes.")