Then off course what happened when our Lord Jesus Christ died, as recorded in Matthew 27.
(Matthew 27:52-53 KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I'm just curious as to how one can get from "slept" to "awake in heaven." One is either awake or sleeping, and there's just nothing in this text to state that saints who arose came out of heaven. It literally states, "came out of the graves." It also states that their
bodies came out of the graves, not that these persons were resurrected.
Obviously one would like more detail, especially if such a passage were to inform doctrine. After appearing unto many, did they all die after a certain amount of time? Had they "arisen" into an immortal state and then had to ascend into heaven? Or had they re-assumed mortality to die naturally at some later date? Or did the bodies after having appeared unto many just dissolve or disappear? How would the people at the time of Jesus even know what the "saints" looked like? Nobody would have known what Moses or Joshua or Isaiah or Elijah would have looked like.
Now before you lose it and decide I'm some heretic (in this regard). I actually believe this event literally happened, and I can show you photographs of the actual graves that had been opened from the earthquake.
But whatever happened, Orthodox Jewish theology holds that the bodies of the dead return to dust, and the spirit "goes back to" (is subsumed back into) God from whence the spirit (energy) had come. The dead do not exist in any conscious state until a resurrection. The Pharisees believed in a resurrection, the Sadducees did not. But unless I've missed something (which is possible) there's just no part of any Jewish belief system that thinks the dead are off somewhere awake in heaven meandering around and playing marimba or something.
Now while this cannot be readily seen in modern English translations, Paul literally stated (in Greek) that he suffered "deaths oft," meaning that he often actually died, and then came back to life. They did not leave him for dead, they actually killed him. Paul even had to invent a term, the "out-resurrection,"
ἐξανάστασις (G1815) in order to distinguish his "resuscitations" from the final resurrection of the dead. Modern translations cannot abide by this, and so play around with the words inventing the phrase "near death."
Now I can readily assure you that I am NOT a JW, but I take the scripture at it's face value. The dead know nothing. Why? (Because they're dead.)
I love how Paul writes of it in 2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV)
Yet..., this scripture doesn't say when. Even Paul uses the term "those who are asleep."
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
So even Paul is of the mind to say "by the word of the Lord" that the dead are Dead, and they don't arise until the trump of God.
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
(Philippians 1:23 KJV)
I would point out, though, that this scripture also doesn't say when. There's no time frame presented. So what would your conscious experience be upon death? To those here and now, you are asleep, knowing nothing. To you, though, your next thought would be of the out-Resurrection, at the trump. In the future.
but then I must ask about what is called the Mount of Transfiguration.
As I'm sure you know, the event is recorded in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. And while I believe this event did take place, it's puzzling in its own right as to what actually happened, especially if it is to inform Doctrine.
(Mark 9:4 KJV) And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
How would Peter, James, and John know what Elias and Moses looked like? (Perhaps this was an assumption?) The conversation isn't recorded, though Luke is the only one who gives a topical overview. Why? The text states that the two were talking with Jesus, not the others. (Luke even has them asleep, or groggy.) Did Jesus really need to have a sidebar meeting to consult with Elias and Moses?
I also need to mention that none of accounts state that Elias and Moses came from heaven, or anywhere else for that matter. They just "appeared." We don't know from where, and more importantly, we don't know from
when. Interestingly enough, the Greek verb is in the passive voice, so Elias and Moses were not doing the appearing, but rather they "were seen" by Peter, James, and John. (I've always been puzzled why that detail gets left out.)
Personally, I think it's obvious that this was a vision. There was a reason that the leading three disciples were separated and brought there, and there was a reason a voice came out of the cloud. And there was a reason that the three saw Elias and Moses. The vision informed Peter, James, and John that even Elias and Moses were subordinate to Jesus. "This is my beloved Son: hear
him." Before this, the three were of a mind (or at least Peter was) to build "co-equal" tabernacles. But now they knew that Jesus was greater than even Elias and Moses. And that was the reason for the vision.
Kindly,
Rhema
(Let me know if there are other passages you may wish to discuss.)
