No one goes to heaven!

[th1bill]

I understand that is an axiom upon which your faith is built.

But that is a belief which is brought to the scriptures, not one that comes from the scriptures.

That said, I do have some deep questions, but I also know that this forum would not allow open discussion on them.

Kindly,
Rhema

Isaiah 40:8​

​

The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

There are at least 39 other instances noting that He never changes. People without Ruah's leading do note differences, and that is because they do not have Ruah reconciling the scriptures for them. I am not guilty of bringing preconceptions to the scriptures.​

11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Source: Matthew 13 Parallel Bible (American Standard Version)

You see, based on scripture, as is all Absolute Truth, those finding the errors in scripture are, likely, not fully surrendered and indwelt. A harsh truth but the truth can be that way. This is the clear distinction between Yehovah's Truth and relative truth.

 

[th1bill]

Glad to see that you enjoy milk. Should I bring a cookie?

Look Bill, if you're comfortable where you're at, there's not much even God can do.
But I get the feeling that you can't even learn from your Ruah.

Rhema

Not only do you choose to flame by being intentionally rude but you insult Yehovah. Ruah is the Holy Spirit of Yehovah and is the Final Professor of humanity and instructs us in all Holyness. It saddens me to find folks attending services anywhere, calling themselves Christians and insulting God. I am a big boy and will not go cry to the mods over your childish flaming.

 

[Dave M]

if no one goes to heaven, who are the 24 elders?

Revelation 4:4​

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clothed in white garments, with golden crowns on their heads.

how about all those that came out of the great tribulation, if they are not in heaven where are they?

Revelation 7:14​

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Rhema]

And books like The Gospel of Thomas might have historical import, but they might not either.

Bill, this is exactly why one like yourself should study before commenting on things about which they know nothing.

The Gospel of Thomas has absolutely NOTHING to do with canon of the New Testament established by the Apostle Thomas who planted the churches in India (aka The Parthian Empire). It's not even IN the canon that was authorized by him. (So obviously Thomas didn't write it.)

You choose in errancy and I follow the instruction from The Teacher sent by Yashua.

We disagree on this. But your statement is a bit confusing. If the Teacher is Yashua, then he sent himself? I had thought he was sent by the Father? (cf. John 5:37)

Tisk, tisk. Rhema, Christians use the writings, letters, from Yehovah to guide the lives we live by faith and we live by that faith alone.

Your "writings, letters" were selected by the Roman Catholic Church (more accurately, though, the Orthodox Empire Church, as the Great Schism had not yet happened). But then again, you might be Catholic, so that might not present a problem to you.

So yes, you live by faith. I live by faith. But you live by faith in what? Nobody ever seems able to answer that question, but I did. (Post #207.) My faith is in the teachings of Jesus.

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,​

(Mark 1:14 KJV)

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what JESUS preached, no matter what anyone else may say.

And no one seems able or willing to take what the prophet Jeremiah said at face value:

How can you say, "We are wise, and the TORAH of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it (the TORAH) into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

I have faith that Jeremiah spoke the truth and said what he meant. I need no "Ruah" to make it mean something different.

Rhema, Ruah never disagrees with Himself nor with the Holy Scriptures. When there is disagreement we all need to read the Word of Yehovah, our Elohim.

How can you say, "We are wise, and the TORAH of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it (the TORAH) into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

(And just in case the moderators conclude that I am speaking heresy, all I actually did was quote scripture.)

You see, based on scripture, as is all Absolute Truth, those finding the errors in scripture are, likely, not fully surrendered and indwelt. A harsh truth but the truth can be that way. This is the clear distinction between Yehovah's Truth and relative truth.

The harsh truth is that you change the words that are actually written in order to embrace some religious fantasy of "all Absolute Truth."

But again, the topic of Inerrancy cannot be discussed on this forum, at the threat of being banned. So you post a thing that you know cannot be addressed.

The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.​

(Isaiah 40:8 KJV)

To which I wholeheartedly say AMEN. But you have taken the phrase "word of our God" and changed it to mean "Bible." I find that is handling scripture deceitfully. The Word of our God is that which HE has decided upon and has revealed to us formerly in the prophets, but in these last days has sent His Son to proclaim that Word.

How can you say, "We are wise, and the TORAH of the LORD is with us," when, in fact, the false pen of the scribes has made it (the TORAH) into a lie?​

(Jeremiah 8:8 NRSV)

I don't deal with lies Bill. And I'm sure you would rather not too.

God bless,
Rhema

Not only do you choose to flame by being intentionally rude but you insult Yehovah.

Well, yes, sorry about that. It was a "low blow." Sorry about that. I regret the "off the cuff" remark and apologize. But first, you're not Yehovah. And I'm not the one accusing you of not having the Holy Spirit, as you are with me.

Ruah is the Holy Spirit of Yehovah and is the Final Professor of humanity and instructs us in all Holyness.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "Final Professor of humanity." Is that some underhanded insult to call me a demon? I don't know, which is why I ask. The words have no inherent meaning, and the phrase is NOT found in the Bible. But yes, the Holy Spirit shall instruct us in all Holiness, when one is ready.

I am a big boy and will not go cry to the mods over your childish flaming.

Nah... you'll just flame back.

 

[Rhema]

if no one goes to heaven, who are the 24 elders?

Some have suggested they are the 12 sons of Jacob, and the 12 princes of Ishmael.

Technically, though, there is nothing in the book to even remotely suggest that the elders are human.

how about all those that came out of the great tribulation, if they are not in heaven where are they?

One of the problems with interpreting Revelation is the invention of Archetypes. Certain phrases are capitalized and we come up with The Great Tribulation, as a singular or punctilinear event. While many people just link this to Matthew 24 (or Mark 13), I find it interesting that the KJV dropped the Direct Article (there is no "the"):

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

(Revelation 7:14 KJV)

The NRSV, however, presents a somewhat differing view, which suggests that these are everyone who had been martyred for Christ at any period in time.

I said to him, "Sir, you are the one that knows." Then he said to me, "These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

(Revelation 7:14 NRSV)

But the NRSV dropped out the word "and." In addition, the actual verb is a participle, so ought to read, "These are those coming out of the tribulation, the great and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...."


Your concern might better be addressed by the fifth seal:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.​

(Revelation 6:9-11 KJV)

But then note, they are not in some "nice" part of Hades, but are under the altar.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Dave M]

not seeing how it matters if they came out of the great tribulation, or a great ordeal, it wear they are, they are in heaven worshiping the Lord.

or am I missing a point ?

 

[B-A-C]

they are in heaven worshiping the Lord.

I am not against people going to heaven ( I didn't start this particular thread ). But even if they do, I think it's only temporary.
After the millennial reign, it seems all saved believers will be in the New Jerusalem with the Father and Jesus.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Rev 21:9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

Rev 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev 22:2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev 22:4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.

 

[Dave M]

I am not against people going to heaven ( I didn't start this particular thread ). But even if they do, I think it's only temporary.
After the millennial reign, it seems all saved believers will be in the New Jerusalem with the Father and Jesus.

100% agree that it is temporary, if people are in heaven.

 

[Rhema]

not seeing how it matters if they came out of the great tribulation, or a great ordeal, it wear they are, they are in heaven worshiping the Lord.

or am I missing a point ?

It all depends on one's Definitional Framework.

I've seen it posted recently that when believers die they go to "Abraham's Bosom" which is the "nice" part of Hades. And I would rather think that Hades is not a part of Heaven.

Within Evangelical Eschatology, a "thing" is made out of The Great Tribulation, when a case can be made that the people described in Rev 7:14 are those throughout the church age who have been martyred.

I was just pointing out alternatives to show that there's no definitive Truth on the matter.

Rhema

 

[Dave M]

Rev 7:14 are those throughout the church age who have been martyred.

I would tend to agree with this,

I've seen it posted recently that when believers die they go to "Abraham's Bosom"

I would disagree with this, I think it is no longer, that it was for the OT saints, because of this verse

Ephesians 4:8-10​

Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[Rhema]

I would disagree with this,

Me too, but I see it clearly as an allegory.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[th1bill]

As the Ruah has taught me, I understand, from The Revelation mostly, that after the Thousand years of God led peace Satan is to be released and soon after Yehovah burns the Earth into ruin. He then restores the Earth to the condition that it originally was and, a man can walk around the earth un henderd by ocean or river. The plants will be watered from under the surface.

Then Heaven comes down and is found on the Earth. Yashuah taught that He would return to Heaven and prepare many rooms for us. If I have a room in Heaven, I fully expect to be in residece there.

 

[Bill]

It all depends on one's Definitional Framework.

I've seen it posted recently that when believers die they go to "Abraham's Bosom" which is the "nice" part of Hades. And I would rather think that Hades is not a part of Heaven.

Within Evangelical Eschatology, a "thing" is made out of The Great Tribulation, when a case can be made that the people described in Rev 7:14 are those throughout the church age who have been martyred.

I was just pointing out alternatives to show that there's no definitive Truth on the matter.

Rhema

I think it is beyond our understanding

As the Ruah has taught me, I understand, from The Revelation mostly, that after the Thousand years of God led peace Satan is to be released and soon after Yehovah burns the Earth into ruin. He then restores the Earth to the condition that it originally was and, a man can walk around the earth un henderd by ocean or river. The plants will be watered from under the surface.

Then Heaven comes down and is found on the Earth. Yashuah taught that He would return to Heaven and prepare many rooms for us. If I have a room in Heaven, I fully expect to be in residece there.

That is interesting. How all these things will come about, i have no idea. I prefer God to surprize me than figure it out

 

[Rhema]

Yashuah taught that He would return to Heaven and prepare many rooms for us.

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:1-15 KJV)

--- It's hard to know where to stop.

But Bill... the word heaven isn't found anywhere in this passage. And the term "Father's house" might just mean the Temple.

And if Jesus returns to the Earth, and "that where I am, there ye may be also," then wouldn't we be on the Earth? That's what this text says....

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I prefer God to surprize me than figure it out

Well, you'll be surprised when the wicked disappear !!

 

[Bill]

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:1-15 KJV)

--- It's hard to know where to stop.

But Bill... the word heaven isn't found anywhere in this passage. And the term "Father's house" might just mean the Temple.

And if Jesus returns to the Earth, and "that where I am, there ye may be also," then wouldn't we be on the Earth? That's what this text says....

Kindly,
Rhema

What God is speaking of, is being in His Heart. The Father's house is His Love and you joining Him in His heart