No one goes to heaven!

[Rhema]

The same John.

John of Patmos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Allow me to clarify... YOU said that you hadn't seen anything wrong in the first Wikipedia article I linked, and yet now post the opposite? Okay. So you did see something with which you didn't agree.

But no. It's NOT the same John. And this was known in 250 AD.

Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria Egypt (same city as Athanasius 100 years later) was a well educated outspoken dissenter with regards to the authorship of Revelation, and writes:

The one who wrote these things (i.e.,the book of Revelation) calls himself John, and we should believe him. But it is NOT clear which John he was. For he doesn't call himself the disciple whom the Lord loved - as happens often in the Gospel - nor does he say that he was the one who leaned on Jesus' breast or that he was the brother of James, who both saw and heard the Lord. But surely he would have described himself in one of these ways to make himself clearly known.... I think [therefore] that there must have been another John living among the Christians in Asia Minor, just as they say that there are two different tombs in Ephesus, both of them allegedly John's. And from the ideas, and from the words and their arrangement [when comparing the texts], it may be reasonably conjectured that this [John] is different from that [John].​

The phrasing itself also helps to differentiate between the Gospel and Epistle [of John] on the one hand and the book of Revelation on the other. The first two are written not only without errors as regards the Greek language, but also with elegance and real skill with respect to vocabulary, logic, and coherence of meaning. You won't find any barbaric expression, grammatical flaw, or vulgar expression in them [the Gospel and epistles].... I don't deny that this other author had revelations... but I notice, however, that his dialect and language are not accurate Greek. He makes use of barbaric expressions and is sometimes guilty even of grammatical error... I don't say this in order to accuse him (far from it!), but simply to demonstrate that the books are not at all similar.​

- Ecclesiastical History 7.25, Eusebius (trans. B. Ehrman & New Advent .org)​

Meaning they have two different authors. (Unless you with to postulate that the author of the Gospel named John had a stroke or something...)

In the year ~ 250 AD, @B-A-C. They knew it back then.

Rhema

But thank you for the link. There are two substantive errors that I shall correct shortly.

 

[Rhema]

it's usually when you trigger me by being insulting.

I think we have a pot and kettle event happening. One where you demand I be more spiritual than you. (But you're the moderator.)

An angry man stirs up contention,​

But a longsuffering man even calms the rising quarrel.​

A longsuffering man will extinguish condemnations​

But the unglodly man stirs up more.​

Proverbs 15:20 (LXX) - The Orthodox Study Bible

It's best, then, that we both stick to the theological issues and viewpoints. But why do you get triggered when I don't write what you want me to write? I write what best expresses my views. And I post citations and references for why I believe a certain thing.

I have more respect for "Rhema" and do not see you as "utterance" with a Holy connotation

Most Christians have no clue what Rhema is. I chose my screen name to prod others into finding out, perchance they might actually learn something. That said, you and I have no idea what "Holy" would mean to each other. And my screen name is NOT "Rhema Theou." Basically my screen name would translate as "I am speaking" or "I spoke."

You don't think that "I am speaking" is accurate?

So, not lay man, but layman, for not being a cleric.

Yet, if I understand your dialect, I am a cleric.

Scrolling back up, I came across this (see below)!!! lol Maybe I was right, you won't mind being called "dude"!

The term can employed within the context of surprise. But not as general moniker.

Your guidance in this would be appreciated. Just understand until then, I will as a Moderator address you as you signed up with and I'm sure desired to be addressed as, but as a fellow member, nope, not happening.

So perhaps "I am speaking" doesn't' suit you. What of "Verbum" ?? If Greek offends you, does Latin? (You do think I am verbose...)

I provide the LINK to the Liddell Scott lexicon for Rhema per your request for guidance. Maybe "Mr. Speaker"? "Noisy One"? How about "Aesop" since I'm sure you think most of what I post to be a fable. It's probably the least disrespectful.

So... given your heartfelt request, shall we settle with "Brother Aesop" ? Unless you have another idea.

Open forum is not the way to go with this tit for tat.

I just followed your lead, dude.

Why thank God for not having standing with me?

"Standing" ? Rather quite different than Lordship. (But I'll admit a slight curiosity as to why you bring a legal term into the conversation. Or is it some sports metaphor that I don't get? I don't do sports.)

If at least a Brother in Christ, we'd have a civil discourse about it, but that would be verboten to you, right?

Not at all. It may surprise you that I consider you a Brother in Christ, but I know that you would not accept me as one. Having been excommunicated from 12 churches, (all for different reasons), and having attended at least 475 churches from all the hues of Christendom, I'm pretty sure I have a good handle on how various believers react to me from their various faith outlooks. (Except for @Br. Bear. He is a continuing enigma, one I find myself needing to watch. I rarely find people so interesting.)

And you take insult at layman??? lol
You may not realize it or intend to be, but you are very funny...for a Sadducee.

Ahhhgggg. You know I have nothing in common with Sadducees. But then again, neither Pharisee, or Essene. And most certainly not Scribe or Priest. Maybe the Fourth Philosophy. Nope. More likely the Fifth.

That's a first, but I do apologize

Well thank you. Not for the apology, as I don't believe there was a need, but for recognizing that it was indeed my first mistake, as I take great care to craft my posts with accuracy.

"Brother Aesop"

(But don't delete too fast. Give it maybe three days for those enjoying the repartee.)

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Brothers,

A sower went out to sow some seed...
Do you not know this parable?...
He who has ears, let him hear...
As ye mete, so also shall be meted unto you...

Ears?
Hear?

The seed that fell on....

Brotherly love

Putting aside the sin that so easily besets us, let us...?

While ye are yet children....

I have no need of you....

To him that overcometh...

Let each esteem other...

Christ is made unto us....


Consider yourself, lest...

-------

A little homework, my Brothers.

Post in Peace

Jesus Christ is the Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[th1bill]

I noticed that you provide zero evidence about dating. Zilch. Nada. I happen to know some of the criteria upon which these dates are based, specifically the notion of failed prophecy, so ...

What are the background facts that actually pin down your time frame to the years 85-90 AD?

Rhema

Tisk, tisk. Rhema, Christians use the writings, letters, from Yehovah to guide the lives we live by faith and we live by that faith alone.

 

[th1bill]

Dear Brother,
I know. Yet, this Member Rhema has set a criterion of the Apostle Thomas approval, in order to be considered canon. Which makes anything written after this Apostle's death unacceptable as canon. Yet, secular and religious paleographists have determined certain books/letters with dates that are after the death of the Apostle Thomas in 72AD, and yet are included in his church's canon.

Should be simple enough for him to answer, don't you think?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Should be.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Should be.

Dear Brother,
He ultimately responded. Since nothing can be dated with absolute precision, he finds no issue with the Church of the East and their standards. Thus, he neither endorses nor rejects them.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rhema]

Tisk, tisk. Rhema, Christians use the writings, letters, from Yehovah to guide the lives we live by faith and we live by that faith alone.

Tsk, tisk, Bill. One would think that you would at least find out where these writings came from before you use them as guidelines.

I use the teachings of Jesus. What more does one need to know His Gospel (i.e. proclamation).

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,​

(Mark 1:14 KJV)

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what JESUS preached.

Rhema
(Are we at least in agreement on that last sentence? Or is it that you just like being disagreeable about everything?)

 

[Rhema]

@th1bill

He ultimately responded. Since nothing can be dated with absolute precision, he finds no issue with the Church of the East and their standards. Thus, he neither endorses nor rejects them.

Here is where accuracy is necessitated. I did NOT say the above, and nobody likes to have words shoved into their mouth. But allow me to rephrase:

"Since nothing can be dated with absolute precision as it pertains to when any New Testament text was first written, I find no issue with the Church of the East and their standard for establishing a canon." One which does not include Revelation. Their criteria are more pure than with any other branch of the Christian Church. BUT, I am NOT in communion with the Thomas Christians of the Oriental Church of the East.

That said, there are multiple issues with the Protestant canon. Not the least of which is that it's fundamentally Catholic. Protestants claim they can trust God to be able to direct Catholic Bishops to select the "right" books, but they must then reject that God was able to direct these very same Bishops to preach a saving faith, as if God wanted to publish a book and couldn't care less about saving souls.

But since the Bible is worshiped by Protestants, no conversation is permitted about it. (Is it @Christ4Ever ??)

Those whose Faith is based upon the Bible will ultimately lose their Faith when they finally deign to study the Bible in depth.

My Faith, however, is not based upon the Bible, but upon God, His Son, and the Testimony of the Holy Spirit as I am directly taught.

Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

But since the Bible is worshiped by Protestants, no conversation is permitted about it. (Is it @Christ4Ever ??)

You complain about misleading and then post this.........

I'll let your post stand, because you do explain your position.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[th1bill]

Tsk, tisk, Bill. One would think that you would at least find out where these writings came from before you use them as guidelines.

I use the teachings of Jesus. What more does one need to know His Gospel (i.e. proclamation).

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,​

(Mark 1:14 KJV)

If Jesus came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what JESUS preached.

Rhema
(Are we at least in agreement on that last sentence? Or is it that you just like being disagreeable about everything?)

Being indwelt of the Holy Spirit I know the writings I follow are the Inspired Holy Word of Yehovah. And books like The Gospel of Thomas might have historical import, but they might not either. They are not given for study by Ruah but the 66 of the Holy Scriptures are. You choose in errancy and I follow the instruction from The Teacher sent by Yashua.

 

[Rhema]

Being indwelt of the Holy Spirit

As if you're the only one....

My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit Bill.

(But if that's the level of maturity you are at.... according to your faith so be it.)

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I follow the instruction from The Teacher sent by Yashua.

Glad to see that you enjoy milk. Should I bring a cookie?

Look Bill, if you're comfortable where you're at, there's not much even God can do.
But I get the feeling that you can't even learn from your Ruah.

Rhema

 

[Dave M]

if no one goes to heaven, wheat is the tree of life? because we are promised to eat from it.

Revelation 2:7​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’




If no one goes to heaven, wear is the altar of God, because there are souls under it, people who gave there life for the word of God, asking when God will revenge them.

Revelation 6:9-11​

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

[B-A-C]

if no one goes to heaven, wheat is the tree of life? because we are promised to eat from it.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Rev 22:1; Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
Rev_22:2; in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

It would seem the tree of life will be in the New Jerusalem, not heaven.

see Ezek 47:12;

 

[Dave M]

It would seem the tree of life will be in the New Jerusalem, not heaven.

Revelation 2:7​

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
Jesus actually tells us that it is in paradise of God that he is referring to. Is this maybe the same paradise that the thief on the cross was promised to be in?

Luke 23:43​

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


we also have another reference to paradise that seems to suggest heaven is the location

2 Corinthians 12:3-4​

And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

 

[B-A-C]

But does Luke 23:43 or 2Cor 12:3-4 say the tree of life is there?

 

[Bill]

Are you pretending you have not? I see, from time to time, people suggesting there is a formula for tricking Yehovah into speaking to us in the audible form and I say poppycock! God has spoken seven words to me in 2 months short of eighty years... that is more than enough. Every time I open Yehovah's Holy Word He speaks and gives me what I need to live by faith alone. We, Christians, do not live by sight, feel, and sound.

It is faith alone that brings you to Jesus, now you have to receive Jesus into your heart.

It wasn't faith alone that took the thief to heaven with Jesus, but the combination of faith and compassion which is a form of love.

Paul tells us that faith alone is like a Gong clanging in the Wind. We have to have faith and love to enter Heaven

 

[Rhema]

Paul tells us that faith alone is like a Gong clanging in the Wind. We have to have faith and love to enter Heaven

???

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.​

(1 Corinthians 13:1 KJV)

 

[th1bill]

As if you're the only one....

My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit Bill.

(But if that's the level of maturity you are at.... according to your faith so be it.)

Rhema

Rhema, Ruah never disagrees with Himself nor with the Holy Scriptures. When there is disagreement we all need to read the Word of Yehovah, our Elohim.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema, Ruah never disagrees with Himself nor with the Holy Scriptures. When there is disagreement we all need to read the Word of Yehovah, our Elohim.

I understand that is an axiom upon which your faith is built.

But that is a belief which is brought to the scriptures, not one that comes from the scriptures.

That said, I do have some deep questions, but I also know that this forum would not allow open discussion on them.

Kindly,
Rhema