No Redemption for Angels

[lentz]

Parallel prophecy, two things at once. There were no kings when the garden of Eden of existed. Certainly not a nation called Tyre.
But there was a cherub in the garden. A cherub who was cast of heaven. The king of Tyre was never cast from "the mountain of God".
Says cherub in this passage as many times as it says king or leader.

It also say he was "blameless" ...until...

There is a lot of symbolism used in scripture as well.

 

[lentz]

So no scripture, its just what you would prefer to believe?

No scripture to back your claims as well

 

[lentz]

The angels who left heaven, raped women giving birth to hybrids, nah. No forgiveness in my opinion. But as biblical folks have warned, i do not declare judgement on them.

The disembodied spirits of the nephilim, the demons. Nah, not the ones that have crossed over some minimum threshold. No forgiveness in my opinion. Same caveat as above.

I am partial to thinking that some of the demons have not sinned. If such is possible then they have not interacted in a sinful manner with mankind. But, no proof of what i said will be made public by God because it is a matter that does not concern mankind, only the individuals involved. Just like any other private friendship. It is not a public matter.

The only reason i am willing to write what i just wrote is because i have been concerned about these matters for a decade. And 3 years ago i met a woman who claimed she aborted her own human hybrid demon, a non flesh offspring she initially consented to carry.

She said sometimes Jesus gives her peace about what she did. (Both the creation and the abortion)... I Ended up suspending judgement.

If the vast majority of christians today reject the biblical and extra biblical 2nd century explanation of what demons are.. (enoch, jashur, jubelees, etc)

Then who are you to reject the idea that more to this day are not being created?

If they fell they sinned. That is what fallen means. Not that they tripped over the banister and fell out of heaven.
Per the woman aborting baby, I would say she had mental issues,or she was the one demon possessed not the baby

 

[joestue]

If they fell they sinned. That is what fallen means. Not that they tripped over the banister and fell out of heaven.
Per the woman aborting baby, I would say she had mental issues,or she was the one demon possessed not the baby

The baby didnt exist in the physical realm.

 

[lentz]

The baby didnt exist in the physical realm.

I reread and saw that.
But the woman is still a nut

 

[Brad Huber]

No scripture to back your claims as well

True, but at least I realize it and even said it might not be right. I just think its unwise to assume things because tradition teaches us...,.

 

[lentz]

True, but at least I realize it and even said it might not be right. I just think its unwise to assume things because tradition teaches us...,.

Me as well brother. The only reason most believe in Lucifer being Satan and angels having sex,is because they were taught in Sunday school and grew up with a closed mind

 

[Christ4Ever]

I would say that maybe our understanding of their judgement is clouded.
An angel is not subject to the same fates as a human, that is to die in the flesh, thus hell(the grave) doesn't belong to the angels. Will they be cast into the lake
of fire? Sure, but why? Do they exist to fulfill some purpose today? Indeed, for a sign of a true believer is their casting out. Been there done that. So did Jesus,
but why are they allowed to entice humans to sin? Why has God allowed them to even be here with us?

I would add one set of scripture to Col 1:20 and that would be Rom 8:20 For the creature(creation) was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, NOT WILLINGLY, BUT BY
REASON OF HIM(GOD) WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE.
21-BECAUSE THE CREATURE(CREATION) ITSELF SHALL ALSO BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY
OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD.

So we have 2 witnesses here in Col 1:20 and Rom 8:20-21 that states ALL things are to be reconciled back to the Father, not saved in an angels sense but
nevertheless reconciled. And this agrees with Rom 8:20-21 in that creation was subjected to vanity by the Father with a positive outcome intended.
And when that outcome has been achieved the vanity that He put it under will no longer be necessary.

We think like carnal minded humans in the worst way, in that we condemn everything to a torment of unspeakable proportions just because we do not
truly understand the purpose of the lake of fire, nor angels, not even sinners. But God has a purpose for everything as "All things work to the good to
those that love His appearing"
If God wants you to see their value and what they truly are accomplishing, then He will have to show it to you. Line upon line..............

You can always piecemeal verses to come up with a doctrine brother.
That is why context to the whole is necessary. And when I say to the whole, I like you would say God. Yes, He is Love, but He is also Just, and many other characteristics that make Him God, but perfectly found in Him alone.

Though I dare say what you have cobbled here sounds reasonable. Except for where you question your own position by stating "not saved in an angels sense but nevertheless reconciled." lol I laugh because what came to mind was "whether they like it or not!". I thought this because they were already perfectly made, and were not tempted like the first humans were, but still made the choice that they made. Hummm unless you are saying that God will be removing free will or that free will never existed to begin with!!!! Anyway, I do believe there are other threads on "Free Will" so let's not go there! Yikes!

Just remember that the other parts of Scripture that shows the eternal condition of both man & fallen angels are no different than the ones you have quoted and hold as much validity to them as well. So, questioning the condemnation or final location of eternal spirits and putting it at the feet of the "carnal minded humans", bares at the very least reconsideration on your part.

Interesting, and thank-you for sharing.
God Bless

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I do have to ask. Which Bible version do you use? Thanks in advance.

 

[Samson2020]

You can always piecemeal verses to come up with a doctrine brother.
That is why context to the whole is necessary. And when I say to the whole, I like you would say God. Yes, He is Love, but He is also Just, and many other characteristics that make Him God, but perfectly found in Him alone.

Though I dare say what you have cobbled here sounds reasonable. Except for where you question your own position by stating "not saved in an angels sense but nevertheless reconciled." lol I laugh because what came to mind was "whether they like it or not!". I thought this because they were already perfectly made, and were not tempted like the first humans were, but still made the choice that they made. Hummm unless you are saying that God will be removing free will or that free will never existed to begin with!!!! Anyway, I do believe there are other threads on "Free Will" so let's not go there! Yikes!

Just remember that the other parts of Scripture that shows the eternal condition of both man & fallen angels are no different than the ones you have quoted and hold as much validity to them as well. So, questioning the condemnation or final location of eternal spirits and putting it at the feet of the "carnal minded humans", bares at the very least reconsideration on your part.

Interesting, and thank-you for sharing.
God Bless

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I do have to ask. Which Bible version do you use? Thanks in advance.

I use the KJV but cross reference with multiples on Blue Letter Bible study tools.

Similar to the Subtle Bible changers, the many interpretations lend themselves to different meanings and one could always choose the one
that fits their understanding.
However; when the Lord knows which version you have and specifically has you to look at verses in that Bible I think we can assume that He knows
what is written in it and wants that understanding for you. This has been my experience.

Now if we look at Rom 8:20 It should be apparent that you were subject to be here and in a state of vanity by God. So wheres the free will in that?
I could include the fact that if we were asked to be here prior to being born, I for one do not remember that conversation. You? Being a male or female?
Me neither. Color of skin? Nationality? What century?
Romans 9:14-19 again wheres the free will here? And notice in 19 that Paul asks the question Why doth He yet find fault?
Are those who were appointed to stumble at the word stumbling by their own free will? Or appointed by the Father?

In short I will take Gods will for me over my will for me any day, but when I was not born again it was always my free will, so I thought.


I know that the verses in Col 1:20 and Rom 8:20-21 simply state that "ALL things are to be reconciled". And that the creation will be set free from the vanity
it was subjected to by the Father. No need for me to infer anything.

I thought this because they were already perfectly made, and were not tempted like the first humans were, but still made the choice that they made.

Ok lets go there. If they were indeed perfect then where did the iniquity found in them come from? And it does say perfect in THY WAYS til iniquity......
Not created perfect. Eze 28:15
I also noted that the unclean spirits that Jesus cast out had to obey Him. Why would that be if they were in rebellion to God?

Sorry to be a thorn but thats my calling!

 

[lentz]

I use the KJV but cross reference with multiples on Blue Letter Bible study tools.

Similar to the Subtle Bible changers, the many interpretations lend themselves to different meanings and one could always choose the one
that fits their understanding.
However; when the Lord knows which version you have and specifically has you to look at verses in that Bible I think we can assume that He knows
what is written in it and wants that understanding for you. This has been my experience.

Now if we look at Rom 8:20 It should be apparent that you were subject to be here and in a state of vanity by God. So wheres the free will in that?
I could include the fact that if we were asked to be here prior to being born, I for one do not remember that conversation. You? Being a male or female?
Me neither. Color of skin? Nationality? What century?
Romans 9:14-19 again wheres the free will here? And notice in 19 that Paul asks the question Why doth He yet find fault?
Are those who were appointed to stumble at the word stumbling by their own free will? Or appointed by the Father?

In short I will take Gods will for me over my will for me any day, but when I was not born again it was always my free will, so I thought.


I know that the verses in Col 1:20 and Rom 8:20-21 simply state that "ALL things are to be reconciled". And that the creation will be set free from the vanity
it was subjected to by the Father. No need for me to infer anything.

Ok lets go there. If they were indeed perfect then where did the iniquity found in them come from? And it does say perfect in THY WAYS til iniquity......
Not created perfect. Eze 28:15
I also noted that the unclean spirits that Jesus cast out had to obey Him. Why would that be if they were in rebellion to God?

Sorry to be a thorn but thats my calling!

Except for the book of Jude there is no mention of fallen angels in scripture.
And even in Jude, saying they fell from heaven is conjecture.
Pastors are also called angels. Perhaps they are religious leaders,Pharisees,false prophets of old.
Turn on the TV,there are quite a few fallen angels there.

 

[lentz]

I did see snow angels today

 

[lentz]

Angels were not created with the seed of life, like men have been. But they can take on human form if they so desire, any form they want to I assume. And it would be possible that they collected the seed of men and then experimented with those seed to produce the offspring that were their corrupted creation that were the half human/half modification like goliath for example. And when those hybrids died in the great flood, their spirits had no place assigned to them that they were able to go to, and they became the evil spirits or demons if you will, that roam the earth.

Experimented……they have a laboratory?

 

[lentz]

These are fallen angels that did this with Satan's purpose in mind. That was to contaminate the seed of man so the Messiah could not come.

Personally, I believe it did happen. There are many things in Scripture that are not rational to mortal man's way of thinking.

Nothing could keep the Messiah from coming.
It was planned from before the foundation of the world.

 

[lentz]

I did see snow angels today

Well…. One anyway

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing could keep the Messiah from coming.
It was planned from before the foundation of the world.

Of course not, but that doesn't stop Satan from trying. Satan is deceived, he actually believes he's going to win in the end.

 

[lentz]

Of course not, but that doesn't stop Satan from trying. Satan is deceived, he actually believes he's going to win in the end.

I’m sorry, but win what? And where is that written?

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:;10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

1Pet 5:8; Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

 

[Brad Huber]

Experimented……they have a laboratory?

No reason to be a mocker, their world is not our world.

 

[lentz]

No reason to be a mocker, their world is not our world.

I disagree. I always mock things that are silly

 

[B-A-C]

Jude 1:7
(AMPC) [The wicked are sentenced to suffer] just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the adjacent towns--which likewise gave themselves over to impurity and indulged in unnatural vice and sensual perversity--are laid out [in plain sight] as an exhibit of perpetual punishment [to warn] of everlasting fire. [Genesis 19]
(ASV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
(BSB) In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire.
(CEV) We should also be warned by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the nearby towns. Their people became immoral and did all sorts of sexual sins. Then God made an example of them and punished them with eternal fire.
(CSB) Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns committed sexual immorality and perversions, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
(ESV) just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
(ESV+) just as R17Sodom and Gomorrah and R18the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and R19pursued unnatural desire,N1 serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
(GNB) Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the nearby towns, whose people acted as those angels did and indulged in sexual immorality and perversion: they suffer the punishment of eternal fire as a plain warning to all.
(Greek NT BYZ+) ωςG5613 ADV σοδομαG4670 N-NPN καιG2532 CONJ γομορραG1116 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ αιG3588 T-NPF περιG4012 PREP αυταςG846 P-APF πολειςG4172 N-NPF τονG3588 T-ASM ομοιονG3664 A-ASM τουτοιςG3778 D-DPM τροπονG5158 N-ASM εκπορνευσασαιG1608 V-AAP-NPF καιG2532 CONJ απελθουσαιG565 V-2AAP-NPF οπισωG3694 ADV σαρκοςG4561 N-GSF ετεραςG2087 A-GSF προκεινταιG4295 V-PNI-3P δειγμαG1164 N-ASN πυροςG4442 N-GSN αιωνιουG166 A-GSN δικηνG1349 N-ASF υπεχουσαιG5254 V-PAP-NPF
(Greek NT TR+) ωςG5613 ADV σοδομαG4670 N-NPN καιG2532 CONJ γομορραG1116 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ αιG3588 T-NPF περιG4012 PREP αυταςG846 P-APF πολειςG4172 N-NPF τονG3588 T-ASM ομοιονG3664 A-ASM τουτοιςG3778 D-DPM τροπονG5158 N-ASM εκπορνευσασαιG1608 V-AAP-NPF καιG2532 CONJ απελθουσαιG565 V-2AAP-NPF οπισωG3694 ADV σαρκοςG4561 N-GSF ετεραςG2087 A-GSF προκεινταιG4295 V-PNI-3P δειγμαG1164 N-ASN πυροςG4442 N-GSN αιωνιουG166 A-GSN δικηνG1349 N-ASF υπεχουσαιG5254 V-PAP-NPF
(GW) What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities near them is an example for us of the punishment of eternal fire. The people of these cities suffered the same fate that God’s people and the angels did, because they committed sexual sins and engaged in homosexual activities.
(HCSB) In the same way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them committed sexual immorality and practiced perversions, just as angels did, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
(KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(MSG) Sodom and Gomorrah, which went to sexual rack and ruin along with the surrounding cities that acted just like them, are another example. Burning and burning and never burning up, they serve still as a stock warning.
(NAS77) Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
(NAS95) just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
(NET) So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
(NIrV) The people of Sodom and Gomorrah and the towns around them also did evil things. They gave themselves over to sexual sins. They committed sins of the worst possible kind. They are an example of those who are punished with fire. The fire never goes out.
(NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
(NKJV) as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(NLT) And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.

ἐκπορνεύω
ekporneuō
ek-porn-yoo'-o
From G1537 and G4203; to be utterly unchaste: - give self over to fornication.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

There are many controversial verses in the Bible, but it seems this is more controversial than most. Out of the 21 Bible translations I have, 17 of them say the angels committed sexual acts ( sensual perversions, sexual immorality, fornication, etc.. )
The word here is ekporneuo, which of course is where "porn"ography comes from. It's used a number of places in the Bible as is translated as sexual immmorality and fornication most of the time, 4 of the Bible seems to infer that it is the inhabitants
of Sodom and Gomorrah that are imprisoned in hell here, not the angels. In many Bible you have to read verse 6 to figure out the that the beings who committed sexual sin "just as " Sodom and Gommorah did, are angels. 2 of the Bible don't even
mention the angels at all in this verse. But the word translated as angels in the Greek is...

ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

This word is in the original Greek manuscripts.

Jude 1:6; αγγελουςG32 N-APM τεG5037 PRT τουςG3588 T-APM μηG3361 PRT-N τηρησανταςG5083 V-AAP-APM τηνG3588 T-ASF εαυτωνG1438 F-3GPM αρχηνG746 N-ASF αλλαG235 CONJ απολιπονταςG620 V-2AAP-APM τοG3588 T-ASN ιδιονG2398 A-ASN οικητηριονG3613 N-ASN ειςG1519 PREP κρισινG2920 N-ASF μεγαληςG3173 A-GSF ημεραςG2250 N-GSF δεσμοιςG1199 N-DPM αιδιοιςG126 A-DPM υποG5259 PREP ζοφονG2217 N-ASM τετηρηκενG5083 V-RAI-3S

So then, assuming the original Greek is correct, and the majority of Bibles are correct, it would seem these angels committed some kind of sexual act with someone.

Some people take verses like Matt 22:30; and Mark 12:25; to mean angels can't have sex. But those verses don't say that, they simply say angels are not married. If they did say that, then it would conflict with Jude 1:6-7;

The sole verse in the Bible that mentions a third of the angels defecting with Satan is here...

Rev 12:4; And his tail *swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

This is taken by almost all Bible scholars to be when Satan took a third of the angels with him.

So then the obvious question becomes... where and when did they do this? We don't know for sure, at least not from reading Jude. Many believe this was the time in Genesis 6, when the sons "of God" came into the daughters "of men".
It's one thing to differentiate between sons and daughters, but it's another thing to differentiate between sons of God, and daughters of men. Why aren't both sons and daughters of men? Or, if you prefer, why aren't both sons and daughters
of God?

We do know that Jesus saw Satan cast from heaven. Presumably before tempting Adam and Eve in the garden.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.