Once Saved Always Saved....
First, hello brothers and sisters I am a new contributor to these boards, may the Lord bless you and keep you and cause His countenance to shine upon you, be gracious unto you and give you His shalom, in the name above every name, the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is too long let me know.
Now then it is my position that one who is truly and genuinely saved cannot ever lose their salvation. I will present my position from the Scriptures and leave little to conjecture. As far as calling eternal salvation or eternal life (as opposed to eternal death) the “once saved always saved” doctrine, I have to disagree with putting it quite that way. In the same sentiment and tone I would have to rename conditional immortality the “Russian roulette, can never be sure, begin in the Spirit end in the flesh” doctrine which to sincere scholars from this school would be equally offensive (although I know the Pollster did not have any such intent either way but asked a valid sincere question on the hearts and minds of many). So I hope this will help. May the Lord bring to me, His will being done, the Spirit of the word! Amen.
Okay, let us begin here. The word of God says, “The gifts and callings of God are without repentance”. This has always been understood since the earliest church to mean that God does not repent of the giving of any gift, and the bottom line is that Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23, etc.,). If you really genuinely have received this gift God will NEVER take it back. If you have rejected the gift or appear to have “down the line” turned from it, you were never saved to begin with. Perhaps such a person mentally chose to believe and even got baptized and partook of the bread and wine and heard the word and testimonies about answered prayer and so on, but they still never “believed as the Scriptures have said” (John 6:37) or out of their bellies would have flowed rivers of living water (the overflowing of the Spirit of Christ poured out through them unto a lost and dying world). Who can then deny what they have come to KNOW is the TRUTH.
Conditional immortality says that under certain conditions or in certain situations, despite Romans 11:29, the Lord will leave you (you will lose your salvation) but then by repentance and confession He takes you back (re-saved), then after weeks or months of faithful obedience (to that Churches alleged minimal standards) you sin and you are lost again, until you repentantly confess and get re-saved….over and over always unsure until hopefully you do not get hit by a bus after thinking some lustful thought before you could repent cause BLAM…straight to Hell!!! No re-repentance…no re-confession…salvation was still in lost mode…so sad…too bad! Amen? This doctrine re-crucifies Christ over and over. It stumbles at the Stumbling Stone (which is Christ) making the error of believing that after you received grace you now must secure your salvation through your own righteousnesses (Romans 9:32-33). Which of course in God’s eyes, according to the word of God are as filthy rags…!?!
But my Bible says, “…it is the gift of God, and NOT of yourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10) and that by NO works of righteousness of your own are you saved (Titus 3:3-8). My Jesus promises “I will NEVER leave you or FORSAKE you”! The book of John assures us that “we may KNOW (present tense) that we have (present tense) eternal life. But if the other is true one cannot really be sure at any given moment for in the next you could slip and fall and be blotted out (blotted in, blotted out, blotted back in…etc.,). Romans 10 which is all about “the saved” whom He loves and nothing can separate us (Romans 8). What cannot separate us? Our sin? Nothing! The devil’s trickery and temptation? Nothing! But why? Because Jesus did it all. He lived the life and you are dead (Col. 3:3; Roman’s 6). You are alive (having eternal life) “in Him”! He who began a good work in you has promised to finish it. Unless the Faithful and True lied!?! You see it is not based on our righteousness (for surely we all would miserably fail) but His (Matt. 6:33; Romans 4:6-8) and we are to seek this Righteousness (the only one which exceeds that of the Pharisees).
Eph. 1:7 tells us that the saved “have” (present tense) redemption (unless His blood alone was insufficient) and forgiveness.
1:11 – In Him (Acts 2:38) we have obtained (present tense) an inheritance
1:13 – we who believed (not just believed “in”) ARE saved and sealed (as with the Royal seal or stamped by God as His for we are now no longer our own…therefore He is responsible for the outcome)
1:14 – and the sealing (by the Holy Spirit) is not only God’s mark of ownership and authority over us but is a guarantee of our inheritance!
Now Jesus, who always prays God’s perfect will, who is Himself God, and who’s prayers are reliable, in John 17 (the true Lord’s Prayer) says of all that the Father has given Him He will lose none (John 6:37, and 17).
Now with this in mind read John 5:24 and John 10:27-29
Now what really gets to me is the people who preach conditional immortality always come off as if they are saved and your not…your sin loses salvation but somehow theirs does not (at least they think this because they live up to that churches minimal standards to maintain their salvation and think this makes them saved). So in effect man can reach a place where they do not ever sin again. But the word of God says “if any person says they have no sin in their life (present tense) that they are liars and the truth is not in them” (1 John 1:7-9).
So now here are three of the more common Scriptures used by their camp to put their flock under the yoke and my commentary, please do not be convinced by me but read as many commentaries as you can to see if I am way off, and if I am please feel free to express this here…
a) Ephesians 5:5 - does not mean these people can or will lose their salvation, it means these cannot become saved. Just because some people have made some verbal profession (though there is no implication these have) can not assure us they are saved. In fact, it cannot yet assure them, unless their heart was right with God, believing Him and in Jesus Christ whim He has sent. Do they really “believe” that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God? Do they really see Him as their Lord? Or are they just joining a popular club, or following the group, or practicing a family tradition, or trying to escape Hell, or taking Christ for a test drive?
You see, as in our example of Simon Magi, when the heart is right the ritual is right. But if the heart is wrong, one can mentally choose to believe (mere mental assent) and even take a bath and eat some bread and drink some wine repeating what some other wants to hear, but do they really “believe” (pisteuo’) as the Scriptures have said? Has the Spirit done a work in them? Has there been genuine contrition over their sin? Has there been that motivation to really strive to change (repent)? Do they really want the real true and alive now GOD to take over their lives? Do they even think it will really happen? Therefore there are three groups in regards to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. There are “the believers” (including those who would be His children but are still in the world that need to be called out by our loving, preaching, and sharing of the gospel). Then there are “the unbelievers” (unbelief is a sin unto death), who God in His foreknowledge KNOWS will never bend the knee to Christ in this or any other lifetime (though they will against their will at the Judgment Seat), who are condemned already because they have not believed in the name (person, authority, presence) of the Son of God. And finally there are “the make-believers”, who for whatever reasons at first appear to be of us, like the tares among the wheat, they initially go through all the correct motions, like they are trying it out for a test drive or something, some of these even go to seminary and become pastors and teachers and Bishops among the fold, but as time passes their fruit (or obvious lack thereof) surely reveals they were never really of us in the first place. In my understanding the people Paul is talking about here will more than likely never be saved unless they come to see their ways as sin and worthy of the judgment. After all there are only Two Ways; your way and Yah’s Way! Albeit none of us should be too quick to judge because few can reach perfection prior to glory when we appear and are made like Him. In fact is our lack of ability to do this on our own that Christ had to come. Lastly, Paul clearly tells us that they have “no inheritance”, and we know the Holy Spirit is said to be the guarantee, the seal of our inheritance (Acts 2:38), that is He sealed us with His authoritative stamp as Lord and King. We are no longer our own. If we are saved we have received the “gift of the Holy Spirit”! No inheritance? Then there was no Holy Spirit! No Holy Spirit then there was never rebirth in Christ, i.e., no eternal life, i.e., no salvation! So remember and watch, for we shall know them by their fruit (fruit takes time to grow, a cuke in one season, and an apple tree in five, but it indeed if it is to bear fruit it eventually reveals growth and transformation, for God gives the increase, now some of us are cukes and others apple trees, God knows).
b) 1 Corinthians 9:27 – What this is not saying is that Paul is implying he could or
would lose his salvation if he didn’t continuously beat his body into shape. The
entire chapter is a comparison between what he has done and what he has not
done. It reflects an effort to conform to the motivation of that Spirit which is now
within. He does this not to indicate his own potential loss, but in light of the
extreme liberties that the Corinthians were known for taking, he is warning them,
as well as us, to make sure of their salvation. Be not conformed to this world but
rather be transformed by the renewal of your mind (be determined to be the best
representative of Christ to a lost and dying world as you can with His help). The
Greek word for repentance means first to change ones mind (from unbelief to
belief, biblical belief is a verb meaning we totally trust in, are relying on and
cleaving to God and His word, albeit it is implied this is with a change in behavior
in view). Just as the Corinthians could relate to the Athletes of “the games”, who
would exercise to exhaustion and make sure they were absolutely fit, with a vision
in mind that they were so fit that there was no doubt they would win the race, Paul
is saying that this is how we should approach our salvation (if indeed we are really
saved), i.e., that we should strive to make sure we are worthy of it, not to gain or
maintain it, just as he, their model has done.
How can one be sure they are Christ’s if they mock God by their blatant flagrancy. What would others who are unsaved think if they look upon those who claim to be saved and see no noted difference in behavior after years of allegedly walking with Him? If we say we are of Christ and then live in the self based pleasure of our evil inclinations, we take the Lord’s name in vain (for this is what this means to declare our actions and statements to be of God when they are not). Here are the signs for testing the spirits. Christ Himself tells us they (the unsaved and secular) shall know we are His by the love we have one for another, and by our works that result from our
salvation (not done to procure it see Ephesians 2:8-10), and by these, they shall look and glorify our Father who is in Heaven! Without these, and seeing only a bunch of partying spirits all gluttonous, drunken, sleeping with our father’s wife (adultery with a step mom), etc., placing their own interests above the interests of others, etc., why would they who are watching us then want Christ (for there is no difference in attitude or behavior)? Do you think for example that the Massachusetts pedophile Catholic priests drew people to Christ or caused many to mock Him and the Church? Yes, mocking! Woe unto them that take the name in vain. Woe unto them that harm His little ones. Finally, when he speaks of being “disqualified”, or “rejected”, he means from being a candidate for salvation (though in His case He was already assured of salvation). If he had not shown his salvation also in his actions how could anyone tell? The lack of fruit would prove his profession false. He would be preaching and saying he is an Apostle, but the Lord knowing the motives of the heart may judge otherwise.
With 2 Peter 2:20, 21 we have a few things to consider. First the context. In context, we have a dissertation or warning against false prophets and false teachers that would arise from within the Church. As prophets and teachers they are occupying positions of authority. But the Scriptures imply they have an ill intent and in effect have personal motives to merchandise the church members, leading them into apostasy. They bring in damnable heresies and are described as clouds without water (illusory and void of God’s Spirit).
Now then just as today, there are such teachers of false gospels in otherwise legitimate churches who lead people astray. When they draw these people into bondage they are lost unless they can be rescued and saved. They themselves were never really genuine Christians, born of God’s Spirit, but got to hear the word, see the move of God, partake of the mysteries (the Sacraments), and yet they “fall away” (apostatize). They reject God and His grace and in fact serve to oppose Him and the work of the Kingdom, so naturally their end is worse than it was at first.
Now can others be drawn away who are genuinely saved (filled with God’s Spirit) and thus lose their salvation? No! Those who are drawn away to damnation were never really saved or else they could never deny what they know was/is “the truth”. Profession a Christian does not make...anybody can say things but whether or not they are genuine (filled with the Holy Spirit) will be born out over time by their works (which demonstrate not cause their salvation).
So there is my take, my prayer is that I have delivered the word as the Spirit moved me with integrity and that it causes you to trust in rely on and cleave to the Lord Jesus and his finished work on the cross. Faith (pistis) is the noun form of the Greek verb Pisteuo which is how the Scriptures have said to believe…it is this trusting in, relying on and cleaving to God, His Messiah, and the word…we who are saved not only believe in God we believe God and it is this that He counts as Righteousness. We are dead in trespasses and sins AND HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, and have been buried with Him in our baptism and are now hid in HIM….when the Lord looks at you on judgment day you who are saved will be standing on His right hand because as Acts 2:38 says, you who have repented from your unbelief (the sin unto death) and have been baptized (immersed) into the name (the person, presence, authority, and character) of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, HAVE received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit. This is the new birth (John 3:3-8). Amen and Amen! Thank you Lord Jesus for without you we are all most damnable, and your judgment would be totally justified (John 3:16). But through you and in you we may KNOW that we have eternal life. We are in your hand and as you promised NO ONE can pluck us out of your hand. Shalom Aliechem (the Peace of God be with you)!
First, hello brothers and sisters I am a new contributor to these boards, may the Lord bless you and keep you and cause His countenance to shine upon you, be gracious unto you and give you His shalom, in the name above every name, the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is too long let me know.
Now then it is my position that one who is truly and genuinely saved cannot ever lose their salvation. I will present my position from the Scriptures and leave little to conjecture. As far as calling eternal salvation or eternal life (as opposed to eternal death) the “once saved always saved” doctrine, I have to disagree with putting it quite that way. In the same sentiment and tone I would have to rename conditional immortality the “Russian roulette, can never be sure, begin in the Spirit end in the flesh” doctrine which to sincere scholars from this school would be equally offensive (although I know the Pollster did not have any such intent either way but asked a valid sincere question on the hearts and minds of many). So I hope this will help. May the Lord bring to me, His will being done, the Spirit of the word! Amen.
Okay, let us begin here. The word of God says, “The gifts and callings of God are without repentance”. This has always been understood since the earliest church to mean that God does not repent of the giving of any gift, and the bottom line is that Salvation (eternal life) is the gift of God (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23, etc.,). If you really genuinely have received this gift God will NEVER take it back. If you have rejected the gift or appear to have “down the line” turned from it, you were never saved to begin with. Perhaps such a person mentally chose to believe and even got baptized and partook of the bread and wine and heard the word and testimonies about answered prayer and so on, but they still never “believed as the Scriptures have said” (John 6:37) or out of their bellies would have flowed rivers of living water (the overflowing of the Spirit of Christ poured out through them unto a lost and dying world). Who can then deny what they have come to KNOW is the TRUTH.
Conditional immortality says that under certain conditions or in certain situations, despite Romans 11:29, the Lord will leave you (you will lose your salvation) but then by repentance and confession He takes you back (re-saved), then after weeks or months of faithful obedience (to that Churches alleged minimal standards) you sin and you are lost again, until you repentantly confess and get re-saved….over and over always unsure until hopefully you do not get hit by a bus after thinking some lustful thought before you could repent cause BLAM…straight to Hell!!! No re-repentance…no re-confession…salvation was still in lost mode…so sad…too bad! Amen? This doctrine re-crucifies Christ over and over. It stumbles at the Stumbling Stone (which is Christ) making the error of believing that after you received grace you now must secure your salvation through your own righteousnesses (Romans 9:32-33). Which of course in God’s eyes, according to the word of God are as filthy rags…!?!
But my Bible says, “…it is the gift of God, and NOT of yourselves (Ephesians 2:8-10) and that by NO works of righteousness of your own are you saved (Titus 3:3-8). My Jesus promises “I will NEVER leave you or FORSAKE you”! The book of John assures us that “we may KNOW (present tense) that we have (present tense) eternal life. But if the other is true one cannot really be sure at any given moment for in the next you could slip and fall and be blotted out (blotted in, blotted out, blotted back in…etc.,). Romans 10 which is all about “the saved” whom He loves and nothing can separate us (Romans 8). What cannot separate us? Our sin? Nothing! The devil’s trickery and temptation? Nothing! But why? Because Jesus did it all. He lived the life and you are dead (Col. 3:3; Roman’s 6). You are alive (having eternal life) “in Him”! He who began a good work in you has promised to finish it. Unless the Faithful and True lied!?! You see it is not based on our righteousness (for surely we all would miserably fail) but His (Matt. 6:33; Romans 4:6-8) and we are to seek this Righteousness (the only one which exceeds that of the Pharisees).
Eph. 1:7 tells us that the saved “have” (present tense) redemption (unless His blood alone was insufficient) and forgiveness.
1:11 – In Him (Acts 2:38) we have obtained (present tense) an inheritance
1:13 – we who believed (not just believed “in”) ARE saved and sealed (as with the Royal seal or stamped by God as His for we are now no longer our own…therefore He is responsible for the outcome)
1:14 – and the sealing (by the Holy Spirit) is not only God’s mark of ownership and authority over us but is a guarantee of our inheritance!
Now Jesus, who always prays God’s perfect will, who is Himself God, and who’s prayers are reliable, in John 17 (the true Lord’s Prayer) says of all that the Father has given Him He will lose none (John 6:37, and 17).
Now with this in mind read John 5:24 and John 10:27-29
Now what really gets to me is the people who preach conditional immortality always come off as if they are saved and your not…your sin loses salvation but somehow theirs does not (at least they think this because they live up to that churches minimal standards to maintain their salvation and think this makes them saved). So in effect man can reach a place where they do not ever sin again. But the word of God says “if any person says they have no sin in their life (present tense) that they are liars and the truth is not in them” (1 John 1:7-9).
So now here are three of the more common Scriptures used by their camp to put their flock under the yoke and my commentary, please do not be convinced by me but read as many commentaries as you can to see if I am way off, and if I am please feel free to express this here…
a) Ephesians 5:5 - does not mean these people can or will lose their salvation, it means these cannot become saved. Just because some people have made some verbal profession (though there is no implication these have) can not assure us they are saved. In fact, it cannot yet assure them, unless their heart was right with God, believing Him and in Jesus Christ whim He has sent. Do they really “believe” that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God? Do they really see Him as their Lord? Or are they just joining a popular club, or following the group, or practicing a family tradition, or trying to escape Hell, or taking Christ for a test drive?
You see, as in our example of Simon Magi, when the heart is right the ritual is right. But if the heart is wrong, one can mentally choose to believe (mere mental assent) and even take a bath and eat some bread and drink some wine repeating what some other wants to hear, but do they really “believe” (pisteuo’) as the Scriptures have said? Has the Spirit done a work in them? Has there been genuine contrition over their sin? Has there been that motivation to really strive to change (repent)? Do they really want the real true and alive now GOD to take over their lives? Do they even think it will really happen? Therefore there are three groups in regards to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. There are “the believers” (including those who would be His children but are still in the world that need to be called out by our loving, preaching, and sharing of the gospel). Then there are “the unbelievers” (unbelief is a sin unto death), who God in His foreknowledge KNOWS will never bend the knee to Christ in this or any other lifetime (though they will against their will at the Judgment Seat), who are condemned already because they have not believed in the name (person, authority, presence) of the Son of God. And finally there are “the make-believers”, who for whatever reasons at first appear to be of us, like the tares among the wheat, they initially go through all the correct motions, like they are trying it out for a test drive or something, some of these even go to seminary and become pastors and teachers and Bishops among the fold, but as time passes their fruit (or obvious lack thereof) surely reveals they were never really of us in the first place. In my understanding the people Paul is talking about here will more than likely never be saved unless they come to see their ways as sin and worthy of the judgment. After all there are only Two Ways; your way and Yah’s Way! Albeit none of us should be too quick to judge because few can reach perfection prior to glory when we appear and are made like Him. In fact is our lack of ability to do this on our own that Christ had to come. Lastly, Paul clearly tells us that they have “no inheritance”, and we know the Holy Spirit is said to be the guarantee, the seal of our inheritance (Acts 2:38), that is He sealed us with His authoritative stamp as Lord and King. We are no longer our own. If we are saved we have received the “gift of the Holy Spirit”! No inheritance? Then there was no Holy Spirit! No Holy Spirit then there was never rebirth in Christ, i.e., no eternal life, i.e., no salvation! So remember and watch, for we shall know them by their fruit (fruit takes time to grow, a cuke in one season, and an apple tree in five, but it indeed if it is to bear fruit it eventually reveals growth and transformation, for God gives the increase, now some of us are cukes and others apple trees, God knows).
b) 1 Corinthians 9:27 – What this is not saying is that Paul is implying he could or
would lose his salvation if he didn’t continuously beat his body into shape. The
entire chapter is a comparison between what he has done and what he has not
done. It reflects an effort to conform to the motivation of that Spirit which is now
within. He does this not to indicate his own potential loss, but in light of the
extreme liberties that the Corinthians were known for taking, he is warning them,
as well as us, to make sure of their salvation. Be not conformed to this world but
rather be transformed by the renewal of your mind (be determined to be the best
representative of Christ to a lost and dying world as you can with His help). The
Greek word for repentance means first to change ones mind (from unbelief to
belief, biblical belief is a verb meaning we totally trust in, are relying on and
cleaving to God and His word, albeit it is implied this is with a change in behavior
in view). Just as the Corinthians could relate to the Athletes of “the games”, who
would exercise to exhaustion and make sure they were absolutely fit, with a vision
in mind that they were so fit that there was no doubt they would win the race, Paul
is saying that this is how we should approach our salvation (if indeed we are really
saved), i.e., that we should strive to make sure we are worthy of it, not to gain or
maintain it, just as he, their model has done.
How can one be sure they are Christ’s if they mock God by their blatant flagrancy. What would others who are unsaved think if they look upon those who claim to be saved and see no noted difference in behavior after years of allegedly walking with Him? If we say we are of Christ and then live in the self based pleasure of our evil inclinations, we take the Lord’s name in vain (for this is what this means to declare our actions and statements to be of God when they are not). Here are the signs for testing the spirits. Christ Himself tells us they (the unsaved and secular) shall know we are His by the love we have one for another, and by our works that result from our
salvation (not done to procure it see Ephesians 2:8-10), and by these, they shall look and glorify our Father who is in Heaven! Without these, and seeing only a bunch of partying spirits all gluttonous, drunken, sleeping with our father’s wife (adultery with a step mom), etc., placing their own interests above the interests of others, etc., why would they who are watching us then want Christ (for there is no difference in attitude or behavior)? Do you think for example that the Massachusetts pedophile Catholic priests drew people to Christ or caused many to mock Him and the Church? Yes, mocking! Woe unto them that take the name in vain. Woe unto them that harm His little ones. Finally, when he speaks of being “disqualified”, or “rejected”, he means from being a candidate for salvation (though in His case He was already assured of salvation). If he had not shown his salvation also in his actions how could anyone tell? The lack of fruit would prove his profession false. He would be preaching and saying he is an Apostle, but the Lord knowing the motives of the heart may judge otherwise.
With 2 Peter 2:20, 21 we have a few things to consider. First the context. In context, we have a dissertation or warning against false prophets and false teachers that would arise from within the Church. As prophets and teachers they are occupying positions of authority. But the Scriptures imply they have an ill intent and in effect have personal motives to merchandise the church members, leading them into apostasy. They bring in damnable heresies and are described as clouds without water (illusory and void of God’s Spirit).
Now then just as today, there are such teachers of false gospels in otherwise legitimate churches who lead people astray. When they draw these people into bondage they are lost unless they can be rescued and saved. They themselves were never really genuine Christians, born of God’s Spirit, but got to hear the word, see the move of God, partake of the mysteries (the Sacraments), and yet they “fall away” (apostatize). They reject God and His grace and in fact serve to oppose Him and the work of the Kingdom, so naturally their end is worse than it was at first.
Now can others be drawn away who are genuinely saved (filled with God’s Spirit) and thus lose their salvation? No! Those who are drawn away to damnation were never really saved or else they could never deny what they know was/is “the truth”. Profession a Christian does not make...anybody can say things but whether or not they are genuine (filled with the Holy Spirit) will be born out over time by their works (which demonstrate not cause their salvation).
So there is my take, my prayer is that I have delivered the word as the Spirit moved me with integrity and that it causes you to trust in rely on and cleave to the Lord Jesus and his finished work on the cross. Faith (pistis) is the noun form of the Greek verb Pisteuo which is how the Scriptures have said to believe…it is this trusting in, relying on and cleaving to God, His Messiah, and the word…we who are saved not only believe in God we believe God and it is this that He counts as Righteousness. We are dead in trespasses and sins AND HAVE BEEN CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, and have been buried with Him in our baptism and are now hid in HIM….when the Lord looks at you on judgment day you who are saved will be standing on His right hand because as Acts 2:38 says, you who have repented from your unbelief (the sin unto death) and have been baptized (immersed) into the name (the person, presence, authority, and character) of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins, HAVE received THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit. This is the new birth (John 3:3-8). Amen and Amen! Thank you Lord Jesus for without you we are all most damnable, and your judgment would be totally justified (John 3:16). But through you and in you we may KNOW that we have eternal life. We are in your hand and as you promised NO ONE can pluck us out of your hand. Shalom Aliechem (the Peace of God be with you)!
