ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

[Johann]

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Branch (klēma). Old word from klaō, to break, common in lxx for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (Joh_15:2-6), elsewhere in N.T. klados (Mar_4:32, etc.), also from klaō, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts.
In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).

The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mē pheron karpon) the vine-dresser “takes away” (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

Cleanseth (kathairei). Present active indicative of old verb kathairō (clean) as in Joh_15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though katharizō is more frequent (Heb_10:2).
That it may bear more fruit (hina karpon pleiona pherēi). Purpose clause with hina and present active subjunctive of pherō, “that it may keep on bearing more fruit” (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.


αιρει
G142
V-PAI-3S
αἴρω
to lift up
αἴρω
aírō; fut. arṓ, aor. ḗra, perf. ḗrka (Col_2:14), perf. pass. ḗrmai (Joh_20:1). To take up. Trans:
(I) To take up, to lift up, to raise.
(A) Particularly, as stones from the ground (Joh_8:59); serpents (Mar_16:18); anchors (Act_27:13); the hand (Rev_10:5); see also Sept.: Deu_32:40; Isa_49:22. Pass. árthēti (Mat_21:21).
(B) Figuratively, to raise, elevate; the eyes (Joh_11:41; see also Sept.: Psa_121:1; Psa_123:1); the voice, meaning, to cry out, to sing (Luk_17:13; Act_4:24; see also Sept.: Jdg_21:2; 1Sa_11:4). To hold the mind (psuchḗ [G5590]) or soul of someone suspended, i.e., in suspense or doubt (Joh_10:24).
(II) To take up and place on oneself, to take up and bear, meaning to bear, carry (Mat_4:6, "they shall bear you" [a.t.] in the hands. See also Sept.: Psa_91:12); my yoke (Mat_11:29; see also Sept.: Lam_3:27); the cross (Mat_16:24; Mat_27:32; Mar_15:21); to take or carry with one (Mar_6:8; Luk_9:3; see also Sept.: Gen_44:1; 2Ki_7:8).
(III) To take up and carry away, meaning to take away, to remove by carrying, spoken of a bed (Mat_9:6; Joh_5:8); a dead body, a person, and so forth (Mat_14:12; Mat_22:13; Act_20:9); bread with the idea of laying up, making use of (Mat_14:20; Mat_15:37; Mar_8:8, Mar_8:19-20). Generally (Mat_17:27; Act_21:11). Pass. árthēti, "be thou removed" (Mat_21:21). In a metaphorical sense, to take away sin, meaning the imputation or punishment of sin (Joh_1:29; 1Jn_3:5; 1Sa_15:25); to bear the punishment of sin (Lev_5:17; Num_5:31; Num_14:33); to take away by taking upon oneself (Mat_8:17; 1Pe_2:24).
(IV) To take away, remove, with the idea of lifting away from, usually with the idea of violence and authority.
(A) Particularly (Luk_6:29-30; Luk_11:22). The new piece tears away still more of the old garment (Mat_9:16; Mar_2:21). Of branches, meaning to cut off, prune (Joh_15:2); Spoken of persons, meaning to take away or remove from a church, excommunicate (1Co_5:2, in some MSS exarthḗ [G1808]). To take away or remove out of the world by death, and so forth (Mat_24:39). In His humiliation and oppression was His sentence; He was torn away, meaning hurried away to death (Act_8:33; Isa_53:8; Isa_57:1-2). In the imper. aíre or áron, away with, meaning put out of the way, kill (Luk_23:18; Joh_19:15; Act_21:36; Act_22:22).
(B) Figuratively (Joh_11:48, "and take away [destroy] our city and nation" [a.t.]; 1Co_6:15, taking away wrongfully the members which belong to Christ). With the meaning of to deprive of the kingdom of heaven (Mat_21:43); the word of God (Mar_4:15; Luk_8:12, Luk_8:18); gifts (Mar_4:25); joy (Joh_16:22; see also Sept.: Isa_16:10). Spoken of vices, to put away (Eph_4:31); of a law, to abrogate (Col_2:14).
Deriv.: apaírō (G522), to lift off; exaírō (G1808), to put away from the midst; epaírō (G1869), to lift up, as in the eyes, the head, the hands or the heel; sunaírō (G4868), to take up together, to reckon; huperaírō (G5229), to be exalted above measure.
Syn.: bastázō (G941), to bear; phérō (G5342), to bring, carry; methístēmi (G3179), to remove; lambánō (G2983), to take, lay hold of; piázō (G4084), to lay hold of forcefully; airéō (G138), to take; komízō (G2865), to bring.
Ant.: kataleípō (G2641), to leave behind; hupoleípō (G5275), to leave remaining; hupolimpánō (G5277), to leave behind, bequeath.


John 15:6
He is cast forth (ἐβλήθη ἔξω)
The aorist tense. Literally, was cast forth. The aorist, denoting a momentary act, indicates that it was cast forth at the moment it ceased to abide in the vine. Forth signifies from the vineyard; ἔξω, outside.
As a branch (ὠς τὸ κλῆμα)
Strictly, the branch: the unfruitful branch.
Is withered (ἐξηράνθη)
The aorist, as in was cast forth. Wyc, shall wax dry.
Men gather
Or, as Rev., they gather. Indefinite. Compare Isa_27:11; Eze_15:5.
He is cast forth (eblēthē exō). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of ballō as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also Joh_15:4, Joh_15:7 for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive meinēte and meinēi in Joh_15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption. Jesus as the vine will fulfill his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.
As a branch (hōs to klēma).
And is withered (exēranthē). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of xērainō, same timeless use in Jas_1:11 of grass, old and common verb. They gather (sunagousin). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.
Are burned (kaietai). Present passive singular of kaiō, to burn, because klēmata (branches) is neuter plural. See this vivid picture also in Mat_13:41, Mat_13:49.
Robertson.
εβληθη
G906
V-API-3S
βάλλω
to throw
βάλλω
ballō
bal’-lo
A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare G4496.
LXX related word(s)
H2904 tul
H3032 yadad
H3384 yarah
H4272 machats
H5186 natah
H5221 nakhah hi.
H5307 naphal qal.,hi.
H5375 nasa
H6566 paras
H6651 tsavar
H6696 tsur
H6923 qadam pi.
H7049 qala
H7411 ramah
H7760 sum
H7971 shalach pi.
H7993 shalakh hi.
H8210 shaphakh
H8327 sharash hi.
H8628 taqa

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

A. Verbs.
1. ballo (G906), "to throw, hurl, in contrast to striking," is frequent in the four gospels and Revelation; elsewhere it is used only in Acts. In Mat_5:30 some mss. have this verb (KJV, "should be cast"); the most authentic have aperchomai "to go away," RV, "go." see ARISE, BEAT, DUNG, LAY, POUR, PUT, SEND, STRIKE, THROW, THRUST.
2. rhipto (G4496) denotes "to throw with a sudden motion, to jerk, cast forth"; "cast down," Mat_15:30 and Mat_27:5; "thrown down," Luk_4:35; "thrown," Luk_17:2 (KJV, "cast"); [rhipteo in Act_22:23 (KJV, "cast off"), of the "casting" off of clothes (in the next sentence ballo No. 1, is used of "casting" dust into the air)]; in Act_27:19 "cast out," of the tackling of a ship, in Act_27:29 "let go" (KJV, "cast"), of anchors; in Mat_9:36, "scattered," said of sheep. See THROW, SCATTER.
3. ekpipto (G1601), lit., "to fall out," is translated "be cast ashore," in Act_27:29, RV, KJV, have fallen upon. See EFFECT, FAIL, FALL, NOUGHT.
A number of compound verbs consisting of ballo or rhipto, with prepositions prefixed, denote to cast, with a corresponding English preposition. Compounds of ballo are:
4. apoballo (G577), "to throw off from, to lay aside, to cast away," Mar_10:50; Heb_10:35.
Note: Apobole, "casting away" (akin to No. 4), is used of Israel in Rom_11:15; elsewhere, Act_27:22, "loss" (of life).
5. ekballo (G1544), "to cast out of, from, forth," is very frequent in the gospels and Acts; elsewhere, in Gal_4:30; 3Jn_1:10; in Jas_2:25, "sent out"; in Rev_11:2, "leave out" (marg., "cast without"). See BRING, No. 28, DRIVE, EXPEL, LEAVE, PLUCK, PULL, PUT, SEND, TAKE, THRUST.
6. emballo (G1685), "to cast into," is used in Luk_12:5.
7. epiballo (G1911), "to cast on, or upon," is used in this sense in Mar_11:7 and 1Co_7:35. See BEAT (No. 5), FALL, No. 11, LAY, PUT, No. 8, STRETCH.
8. kataballo (G2598) signifies "to cast down," 2Co_4:9, KJV, "cast down," RV, "smitten down"; Heb_6:1, "laying." see LAY. Some mss. have this verb in Rev_12:10 (for ballo).
9. amphiballo (G97 and G906), "to cast around," occurs Mar_1:16.
10. periballo (G4016), "to cast about, or around," is used in 23 of its 24 occurrences, of putting on garments, clothing, etc.; it is translated "cast about" in Mar_14:51; Act_12:8, in Luk_19:43, used of "casting" up a bank or palisade against a city (see RV and marg.), KJV, "shall cast a trench about thee." see CLOTHE, No. 6, PUT.
Compounds of rhipto are:
11. aporipto (G641), "to cast off," Act_27:43, of shipwrecked people in throwing themselves into the water.
12. epiripto (G1977), "to cast upon," (a) lit., "of casting garments on a colt," Luk_19:35; (b) figuratively, "of casting care upon God," 1Pe_5:7.
Other verbs are:
13. apotheo (G683), "to thrust away" (apo, "away," otheo, "to thrust"), in the NT used in the middle voice, signifying "to thrust from oneself, to cast off, by way of rejection," Act_7:27, Act_7:39; Act_13:46; Rom_11:1-2; 1Ti_1:19. See PUT and THRUST.
14. kathaireo (G2507), kata, "down," haireo, "to take, to cast down, demolish," in 2Co_10:5, of strongholds and imaginations. See DESTROY, PULL, PUT, TAKE.
Note: The corresponding noun kathairesis, "a casting down," is so rendered in 2Co_10:4 (KJV, "pulling down") and 2Co_13:10 (KJV, "destruction").
15. dialogzomai (G1260), "to reason" (dia, "through," logizomai, "to reason"), is translated "cast in (her) mind," Luk_1:29. See DISPUTE, MUSING, REASON, THINK.
16. apotithemi (G659), "to put off, lay aside," denotes, in the middle voice, "to put off from oneself, cast off," used figuratively of works of darkness, Rom_13:12, "let us cast off," (aorist tense, denoting a definite act). See LAY, No. 8, PUT, No. 5.
17. ektithemi (G1260), "to expose, cast out" (ek, "out," tithemi, "to put"), is said of a new-born child in Act_7:21. In Act_7:19 "cast out" translates the phrase poieo, "to make," with ekthetos, "exposed," a verbal form of ektithemi. See EXPOUND.
18. periaireo (G4014), "to take away," is used in Act_27:40, as a nautical term, RV, casting off, KJV, taken up. See TAKE.
Notes: (1) For zemioo, "cast away," Luk_9:25, see FORFEIT.
(2) For katakremnizo, Luk_4:29 (KJV, "cast down headlong"), see THROW. (3) For oneidizo, Mat_27:44 (KJV, "cast in one's teeth"), see REPROACH. (4) For paradidomi, Mat_4:12 (KJV, "cast into prison"), see DELIVER. (5) For atheteo, 1Ti_5:12 (KJV, "cast off"), see REJECT. (6) For ekteino, Act_27:30 (KJV, cast out"), see LAY No. 13. (7) For tapeinos, 2Co_7:6 (KJV, "cast down"), see LOWLY.
Vines

Two kinds of people
Those in Christ...and those not in Christ.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away [ airei (G142)]; and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it [ kathairei (G2508)], that it may bring forth more fruit.

There is a verbal play upon the two Greek words for "taketh away" and "purgeth" [ airein (G142) ... kathairein (G2508)], which it is impossible to convey in English. But it explains why so uncommon a word as "purgeth," with reference to a fruit tree, was chosen-the one word no doubt suggesting the other. The sense of both is obvious enough, and the truths conveyed by the whole verse are deeply important.

Two classes of Christians are here set forth-both of them in Christ, as truly as the branch is in the vine; but while the one class bear fruit the other bear none. The natural husbandry will sufficiently explain the cause of this difference. A graft may be mechanically attached to a fruit tree, and yet take no vital hold of it, and have no vital connection with it.

In that case, receiving none of the juices of the tree-no vegetable sap from the stem-it can bear no fruit. Such merely mechanical attachment to the True Vine is that of all who believe in the truths of Christianity, and are in visible membership with the Church of Christ, but, having no living faith in Jesus nor desire for His salvation, open not their souls to the spiritual life of which He is the Source, take no vital held of Him, and have no living union to Him. All such are incapable of fruit-bearing. They have an external, mechanical connection with Christ, as members of His Church visible; and in that sense they are, not in name only but in reality, branches "in the true Vine."

Mixing, as these sometimes do, with living Christians in their most sacred services and spiritual exercises, where Jesus Himself is, according to His promise, they my come into such close contact with Him as those did who "pressed upon Him" in the days of His flesh, when the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of His garment.
But just as the branch that opens not its pores to let in the vital juices of the vine to which it may be most firmly attached has no more vegetable life, and is no more capable of bearing fruit, than if it were in the fire; so such merely external Christians have no more spiritual life, and are no more capable of spiritual fruitfulness, than if they had never heard of Christ, or were already separated from Him. The reverse of this class are those "in Christ that bear fruit." Their union to Christ is a vital, not a mechanical one; they are one spiritual life with Him: only in Him it is a Fontal life; in them a derived life, even as the life of the branch is that of the vine with which it is vitally one. Of them Christ can say, "Because I live, ye shall live also:" of Him do they say, "Of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace." Such are the two classes of Christians of which Jesus here speaks.
Observe now the procedure of the great Husbandman toward each. Every fruitless branch He "taketh away."

Compare what is said of the barren fig tree, "Cut it down" (see the notes at Luk_13:1-9, Remark 5 at the close of that section). The thing here intended is not the same as "casting it into the fire" (Joh_15:6): that is a subsequent process. It is ’the severance of that tie which bound them to Christ’ here; so that they shall no longer be fruitless branches in the true Vine, no longer unclothed guests at the marriage-feast. That condition of things shall not last always. "The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." (Psa_1:5). But "every branch that beareth fruit" - in virtue of such living connection with Christ and reception of spiritual life from Him as a fruitful branch has from the natural vine - "He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Here also the processes of the natural husbandry may help us.
Without the pruning knife a tree is apt to go all to wood, as the phrase is. This takes place when the sap of the tree goes exclusively to the formation and growth of fresh branches, and none of it to the production of fruit. To prevent this, the tree is pruned; that is to say, all superfluous shoots are lopped off, which would have drown away, to no useful purpose, the sap of the tree, and thus the whole vegetable juices and strength of the tree go toward their proper use-the nourishment of the healthy branches and the production of fruit. But what, it may be asked, is that rankness and luxuriance in living Christians which requires the pruning knife of the great Husbandman? The words of another parable will sufficiently answer that question:

"The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful" (see the notes at Mar_4:19). True, that is said of such hearers of the word as "bring no fruit to perfection" at all. But the very same causes operate to the hindrance of fruitfulness in the living branches of the true Vine, and the great Husbandman has to "purge" them of these, that they may bring forth more fruit; lopping off at one time their worldly prosperity, at another time the olive plants that grow around their table, and at yet another time their own health or peace of mind: a process painful enough, but no less needful and no less beneficial in the spiritual than in the natural husbandry. Not one nor all of these operations, it is true, will of themselves increase the fruitfulness of Christians. But He who afflicteth not willingly, but smites to heal-who purgeth the fruitful branches for no other end than that they may bring forth more fruit-makes these "chastenings afterward to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in larger measures than before.

Good ol' Jamie Fausset, explaining it well.

taketh away; removes them from that sort of being which they had in Christ. By some means or another he discovers them to the saints to be what they are; sometimes he suffers persecution to arise because of the word, and these men are quickly offended, and depart of their own accord; or they fall into erroneous principles, and set up for themselves, and separate from the churches of Christ; or they become guilty of scandalous enormities, and so are removed from their fellowship by excommunication; or if neither of these should be the case, but these tares should grow together with the wheat till the harvest, the angels will be sent forth, who will gather out of the kingdom of God all that offend and do iniquity, and cast them into a furnace of fire, as branches withered, and fit to be burnt.
And every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. These are the other sort of branches, who are truly and savingly in Christ; such as are rooted in him; to whom he is the green fir tree, from whom all their fruit is found; who are filled by him with all the fruits of his Spirit, grace, and righteousness. These are purged or pruned, chiefly by afflictions and temptations, which are as needful for their growth and fruitfulness, as the pruning and cutting of the vines are for theirs; and though these are sometimes sharp, and never joyous, but grievous, yet they are attended with the peaceable fruits of righteousness, and so the end of bringing forth more fruit is answered; for it is not enough that a believer exercise grace, and perform good works for the present, but these must remain; or he must be constant herein, and still bring forth fruit, and add one virtue to another, that it may appear he is not barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of Christ, in whom he is implanted. These different acts of the vinedresser "taking away" some branches, and "purging" others, are expressed by the Misnic doctors (p) by פיסולה, and זירודה. The former, the commentators (q) say, signifies to cut off the branches that are withered and perished, and are good for nothing; and the latter signifies the pruning of the vine when it has a superfluity of branches, or these extend themselves too far; when some are left, and others taken off.
(p) Misn. Sheviith, c, 2. sect. 3. (q) Maimon. & Bartenora in ib.


...and so does Gill.

Shalom
Johann

 

[complete]

If they are cast out and burned, as Jesus says, they cannot be in and cast out the two are opposites.

Jesus makes a clearly defined line, in or out, no lukewarm, he refers to the two differences as extremes, and tells us of the advantages of each.



I am not suggesting Chris, I am referring to what Jesus is actually saying. The only assumption made is that if a person is not in the vine, having been cast out, they are subject to judgement as a none believer as their are only two options at the judgement.

Jesus’ use of parables is amazing, he can give us a most colourful picture and still make things black and white.

I will look into this tomorrow, I have done all I can for today.

It is good to talk, to share in love, to generate further interest in the scripture, the Truth is in The Word.

Bless you

Hello there, @Brother-Paul,

Forgive me if my use of the words, 'suggest', and, 'imply', offends you: for I mean you no offence. In regard to the content of your replies #118 & #119, I believe I considered those points in reply #115. You are tired and not able to concentrate at the moment as you say: I hope that you manage to sleep and wake refreshed in the morning and will take another look at what is said in #115,

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

Nicely done!

It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou mark not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom
With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after.

Miles Coverdale.

Johann.

Hi @Johann:

It is good to see someone else quoting this, instead of me. I often quote it, for it is a good guide to how to approach the Scriptures.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Branch (klēma). Old word from klaō, to break, common in lxx for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (Joh_15:2-6), elsewhere in N.T. klados (Mar_4:32, etc.), also from klaō, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts.
In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).

The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mē pheron karpon) the vine-dresser “takes away” (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

Cleanseth (kathairei). Present active indicative of old verb kathairō (clean) as in Joh_15:3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though katharizō is more frequent (Heb_10:2).
That it may bear more fruit (hina karpon pleiona pherēi). Purpose clause with hina and present active subjunctive of pherō, “that it may keep on bearing more fruit” (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members.


αιρει
G142
V-PAI-3S
αἴρω
to lift up
αἴρω
aírō; fut. arṓ, aor. ḗra, perf. ḗrka (Col_2:14), perf. pass. ḗrmai (Joh_20:1). To take up. Trans:
(I) To take up, to lift up, to raise.

(A) Particularly, as stones from the ground (Joh_8:59); serpents (Mar_16:18); anchors (Act_27:13); the hand (Rev_10:5); see also Sept.: Deu_32:40; Isa_49:22. Pass. árthēti (Mat_21:21).​

(B) Figuratively, to raise, elevate; the eyes (Joh_11:41; see also Sept.: Psa_121:1; Psa_123:1); the voice, meaning, to cry out, to sing (Luk_17:13; Act_4:24; see also Sept.: Jdg_21:2; 1Sa_11:4). To hold the mind (psuchḗ [G5590]) or soul of someone suspended, i.e., in suspense or doubt (Joh_10:24).​

(II) To take up and place on oneself, to take up and bear, meaning to bear, carry (Mat_4:6, "they shall bear you" [a.t.] in the hands. See also Sept.: Psa_91:12); my yoke (Mat_11:29;

see also Sept.: Lam_3:27); the cross (Mat_16:24; Mat_27:32; Mar_15:21); to take or carry with one (Mar_6:8; Luk_9:3; see also Sept.: Gen_44:1; 2Ki_7:8).​

(III) To take up and carry away, meaning to take away, to remove by carrying, spoken of a bed (Mat_9:6; Joh_5:8); a dead body, a person, and so forth (Mat_14:12; Mat_22:13; Act_20:9);

bread with the idea of laying up, making use of (Mat_14:20; Mat_15:37; Mar_8:8, Mar_8:19-20). Generally (Mat_17:27; Act_21:11). Pass. árthēti, "be thou removed" (Mat_21:21). In a metaphorical sense, to take away sin, meaning the imputation or punishment of sin (Joh_1:29; 1Jn_3:5; 1Sa_15:25); to bear the punishment of sin (Lev_5:17; Num_5:31; Num_14:33); to take away by taking upon oneself (Mat_8:17; 1Pe_2:24).​

(IV) To take away, remove, with the idea of lifting away from, usually with the idea of violence and authority.

(A) Particularly (Luk_6:29-30; Luk_11:22). The new piece tears away still more of the old garment (Mat_9:16; Mar_2:21). Of branches, meaning to cut off, prune (Joh_15:2);​

Spoken of persons, meaning to take away or remove from a church, excommunicate (1Co_5:2, in some MSS exarthḗ [G1808]).​

To take away or remove out of the world by death, and so forth (Mat_24:39). In His humiliation and oppression was His sentence;​

He was torn away, meaning hurried away to death (Act_8:33; Isa_53:8; Isa_57:1-2). In the imper. aíre or áron, away with, meaning put out of the way, kill (Luk_23:18; Joh_19:15; Act_21:36; Act_22:22).​

(B) Figuratively (Joh_11:48, "and take away [destroy] our city and nation" [a.t.]; 1Co_6:15, taking away wrongfully the members which belong to Christ).​

With the meaning of to deprive of the kingdom of heaven (Mat_21:43); the word of God (Mar_4:15; Luk_8:12, Luk_8:18); gifts (Mar_4:25); joy (Joh_16:22; see also Sept.: Isa_16:10).​

Spoken of vices, to put away (Eph_4:31); of a law, to abrogate (Col_2:14).​

Deriv.: apaírō (G522), to lift off; exaírō (G1808), to put away from the midst; epaírō (G1869), to lift up, as in the eyes, the head, the hands or the heel; sunaírō (G4868), to take up together, to reckon; huperaírō (G5229), to be exalted above measure.​

Syn.: bastázō (G941), to bear; phérō (G5342), to bring, carry; methístēmi (G3179), to remove; lambánō (G2983), to take, lay hold of; piázō (G4084), to lay hold of forcefully; airéō (G138), to take; komízō (G2865), to bring.​

Ant.: kataleípō (G2641), to leave behind; hupoleípō (G5275), to leave remaining; hupolimpánō (G5277), to leave behind, bequeath.​

John 15:6
He is cast forth (ἐβλήθη ἔξω)The aorist tense. Literally, was cast forth. The aorist, denoting a momentary act, indicates that it was cast forth at the moment it ceased to abide

in the vine. Forth signifies from the vineyard; ἔξω, outside.​

As a branch (ὠς τὸ κλῆμα)

Strictly, the branch: the unfruitful branch.​

Is withered (ἐξηράνθη)

The aorist, as in was cast forth. Wyc, shall wax dry.​

Men gather

Or, as Rev., they gather. Indefinite. Compare Isa_27:11; Eze_15:5.​

He is cast forth (eblēthē exō). Timeless or gnomic use of the first aorist passive indicative of ballō as the conclusion of a third-class condition (see also Joh_15:4, Joh_15:7

for the same condition, only constative aorist subjunctive meinēte and meinēi in Joh_15:7). The apostles are thus vividly warned against presumption.​

Jesus as the vine will fulfill his part of the relation as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.​

As a branch (hōs to klēma).
And is withered (exēranthē). Another timeless first aorist passive indicative, this time of xērainō, same timeless use in Jas_1:11 of grass, old and common verb.

They gather (sunagousin). Plural though subject not expressed, the servants of the vine-dresser gather up the broken off branches.​

Are burned (kaietai). Present passive singular of kaiō, to burn, because klēmata (branches) is neuter plural. See this vivid picture also in Mat_13:41, Mat_13:49.
Robertson.

εβληθη​

G906​

V-API-3S​

βάλλω​

to throw​

βάλλω​

ballō​

bal’-lo​

A primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust.
Compare G4496. LXX related word(s)

H2904 tul​

H3032 yadad​

H3384 yarah​

H4272 machats​

H5186 natah​

H5221 nakhah hi.​

H5307 naphal qal.,hi.​

H5375 nasa​

H6566 paras​

H6651 tsavar​

H6696 tsur​

H6923 qadam pi.​

H7049 qala​

H7411 ramah​

H7760 sum​

H7971 shalach pi.​

H7993 shalakh hi.​

H8210 shaphakh​

H8327 sharash hi.​

H8628 taqa​

Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist
Voice: Passive
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

A. Verbs.
1. ballo (G906), "to throw, hurl, in contrast to striking," is frequent in the four gospels and Revelation; elsewhere it is used only in Acts. In Mat_5:30 some mss. have this verb (KJV, "should be cast");
the most authentic have aperchomai "to go away," RV, "go." see ARISE, BEAT, DUNG, LAY, POUR, PUT, SEND, STRIKE, THROW, THRUST.

2. rhipto (G4496) denotes "to throw with a sudden motion, to jerk, cast forth"; "cast down," Mat_15:30 and Mat_27:5; "thrown down," Luk_4:35; "thrown," Luk_17:2 (KJV, "cast"); [rhipteo in Act_22:23 (KJV, "cast off"), of the "casting" off of clothes (in the next sentence ballo No. 1, is used of "casting" dust into the air)]; in Act_27:19 "cast out," of the tackling of a ship, in Act_27:29 "let go" (KJV, "cast"), of anchors; in Mat_9:36, "scattered," said of sheep. See THROW, SCATTER.​

3. ekpipto (G1601), lit., "to fall out," is translated "be cast ashore," in Act_27:29, RV, KJV, have fallen upon. See EFFECT, FAIL, FALL, NOUGHT.
A number of compound verbs consisting of ballo or rhipto, with prepositions prefixed, denote to cast, with a corresponding English preposition. Compounds of ballo are:

4. apoballo (G577), "to throw off from, to lay aside, to cast away," Mar_10:50; Heb_10:35.​

Note: Apobole, "casting away" (akin to No. 4), is used of Israel in Rom_11:15; elsewhere, Act_27:22, "loss" (of life).​

5. ekballo (G1544), "to cast out of, from, forth," is very frequent in the gospels and Acts; elsewhere, in Gal_4:30; 3Jn_1:10; in Jas_2:25, "sent out"; in Rev_11:2, "leave out" (marg., "cast without"). See BRING, No. 28, DRIVE, EXPEL, LEAVE, PLUCK, PULL, PUT, SEND, TAKE, THRUST.

6. emballo (G1685), "to cast into," is used in Luk_12:5.​

7. epiballo (G1911), "to cast on, or upon," is used in this sense in Mar_11:7 and 1Co_7:35. See BEAT (No. 5), FALL, No. 11, LAY, PUT, No. 8, STRETCH.

8. kataballo (G2598) signifies "to cast down," 2Co_4:9, KJV, "cast down," RV, "smitten down"; Heb_6:1, "laying." see LAY. Some mss. have this verb in Rev_12:10 (for ballo).​

9. amphiballo (G97 and G906), "to cast around," occurs Mar_1:16.

10. periballo (G4016), "to cast about, or around," is used in 23 of its 24 occurrences, of putting on garments, clothing, etc.; it is translated "cast about" in Mar_14:51; Act_12:8, in Luk_19:43, used of "casting" up a bank or palisade against a city (see RV and marg.), KJV, "shall cast a trench about thee." see CLOTHE, No. 6, PUT.​

Compounds of rhipto are:

11. aporipto (G641), "to cast off," Act_27:43, of shipwrecked people in throwing themselves into the water.​

12. epiripto (G1977), "to cast upon," (a) lit., "of casting garments on a colt," Luk_19:35; (b) figuratively, "of casting care upon God," 1Pe_5:7.​

Other verbs are:
13. apotheo (G683), "to thrust away" (apo, "away," otheo, "to thrust"), in the NT used in the middle voice, signifying "to thrust from oneself, to cast off, by way of rejection," Act_7:27, Act_7:39; Act_13:46; Rom_11:1-2; 1Ti_1:19. See PUT and THRUST.

14. kathaireo (G2507), kata, "down," haireo, "to take, to cast down, demolish," in 2Co_10:5, of strongholds and imaginations. See DESTROY, PULL, PUT, TAKE.​

Note: The corresponding noun kathairesis, "a casting down," is so rendered in 2Co_10:4 (KJV, "pulling down") and 2Co_13:10 (KJV, "destruction").​

15. dialogzomai (G1260), "to reason" (dia, "through," logizomai, "to reason"), is translated "cast in (her) mind," Luk_1:29. See DISPUTE, MUSING, REASON, THINK.

16. apotithemi (G659), "to put off, lay aside," denotes, in the middle voice, "to put off from oneself, cast off," used figuratively of works of darkness, Rom_13:12, "let us cast off," (aorist tense, denoting a definite act). See LAY, No. 8, PUT, No. 5.​

17. ektithemi (G1260), "to expose, cast out" (ek, "out," tithemi, "to put"), is said of a new-born child in Act_7:21. In Act_7:19 "cast out" translates the phrase poieo, "to make," with ekthetos, "exposed," a verbal form of ektithemi. See EXPOUND.

18. periaireo (G4014), "to take away," is used in Act_27:40, as a nautical term, RV, casting off, KJV, taken up. See TAKE.​

Notes: (1) For zemioo, "cast away," Luk_9:25, see FORFEIT.​

(2) For katakremnizo, Luk_4:29 (KJV, "cast down headlong"), see THROW. (3) For oneidizo, Mat_27:44 (KJV, "cast in one's teeth"), see REPROACH. (4) For paradidomi, Mat_4:12 (KJV, "cast into prison"), see DELIVER. (5) For atheteo, 1Ti_5:12 (KJV, "cast off"), see REJECT. (6) For ekteino, Act_27:30 (KJV, cast out"), see LAY No. 13. (7) For tapeinos, 2Co_7:6 (KJV, "cast down"), see LOWLY.​

Vines​

Two kinds of people
Those in Christ...and those not in Christ.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away [ airei (G142)]; and every branch that beareth fruit he purgeth it [ kathairei (G2508)], that it may bring forth more fruit.

There is a verbal play upon the two Greek words for "taketh away" and "purgeth" [ airein (G142) ... kathairein (G2508)], which it is impossible to convey in English. But it explains why so uncommon a word as "purgeth," with reference to a fruit tree, was chosen-the one word no doubt suggesting the other. The sense of both is obvious enough, and the truths conveyed by the whole verse are deeply important.

Two classes of Christians are here set forth-both of them in Christ, as truly as the branch is in the vine; but while the one class bear fruit the other bear none. The natural husbandry will sufficiently explain the cause of this difference. A graft may be mechanically attached to a fruit tree, and yet take no vital hold of it, and have no vital connection with it.

In that case, receiving none of the juices of the tree-no vegetable sap from the stem-it can bear no fruit. Such merely mechanical attachment to the True Vine is that of all who believe in the truths of Christianity, and are in visible membership with the Church of Christ, but, having no living faith in Jesus nor desire for His salvation, open not their souls to the spiritual life of which He is the Source, take no vital held of Him, and have no living union to Him. All such are incapable of fruit-bearing. They have an external, mechanical connection with Christ, as members of His Church visible; and in that sense they are, not in name only but in reality, branches "in the true Vine."

Mixing, as these sometimes do, with living Christians in their most sacred services and spiritual exercises, where Jesus Himself is, according to His promise, they my come into such close contact with Him as those did who "pressed upon Him" in the days of His flesh, when the woman with the issue of blood touched the hem of His garment.
But just as the branch that opens not its pores to let in the vital juices of the vine to which it may be most firmly attached has no more vegetable life, and is no more capable of bearing fruit, than if it were in the fire; so such merely external Christians have no more spiritual life, and are no more capable of spiritual fruitfulness, than if they had never heard of Christ, or were already separated from Him. The reverse of this class are those "in Christ that bear fruit." Their union to Christ is a vital, not a mechanical one; they are one spiritual life with Him: only in Him it is a Fontal life; in them a derived life, even as the life of the branch is that of the vine with which it is vitally one. Of them Christ can say, "Because I live, ye shall live also:" of Him do they say, "Of His fullness have all we received, and grace for grace." Such are the two classes of Christians of which Jesus here speaks.
Observe now the procedure of the great Husbandman toward each. Every fruitless branch He "taketh away."

Compare what is said of the barren fig tree, "Cut it down" (see the notes at Luk_13:1-9, Remark 5 at the close of that section). The thing here intended is not the same as "casting it into the fire" (Joh_15:6): that is a subsequent process. It is ’the severance of that tie which bound them to Christ’ here; so that they shall no longer be fruitless branches in the true Vine, no longer unclothed guests at the marriage-feast. That condition of things shall not last always. "The ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." (Psa_1:5). But "every branch that beareth fruit" - in virtue of such living connection with Christ and reception of spiritual life from Him as a fruitful branch has from the natural vine - "He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." Here also the processes of the natural husbandry may help us.
Without the pruning knife a tree is apt to go all to wood, as the phrase is. This takes place when the sap of the tree goes exclusively to the formation and growth of fresh branches, and none of it to the production of fruit. To prevent this, the tree is pruned; that is to say, all superfluous shoots are lopped off, which would have drown away, to no useful purpose, the sap of the tree, and thus the whole vegetable juices and strength of the tree go toward their proper use-the nourishment of the healthy branches and the production of fruit. But what, it may be asked, is that rankness and luxuriance in living Christians which requires the pruning knife of the great Husbandman? The words of another parable will sufficiently answer that question:

"The cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful" (see the notes at Mar_4:19). True, that is said of such hearers of the word as "bring no fruit to perfection" at all. But the very same causes operate to the hindrance of fruitfulness in the living branches of the true Vine, and the great Husbandman has to "purge" them of these, that they may bring forth more fruit; lopping off at one time their worldly prosperity, at another time the olive plants that grow around their table, and at yet another time their own health or peace of mind: a process painful enough, but no less needful and no less beneficial in the spiritual than in the natural husbandry. Not one nor all of these operations, it is true, will of themselves increase the fruitfulness of Christians. But He who afflicteth not willingly, but smites to heal-who purgeth the fruitful branches for no other end than that they may bring forth more fruit-makes these "chastenings afterward to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness" in larger measures than before.

Good ol' Jamie Fausset, explaining it well.

taketh away; removes them from that sort of being which they had in Christ. By some means or another he discovers them to the saints to be what they are; sometimes he suffers persecution to arise because of the word, and these men are quickly offended, and depart of their own accord; or they fall into erroneous principles, and set up for themselves, and separate from the churches of Christ; or they become guilty of scandalous enormities, and so are removed from their fellowship by excommunication; or if neither of these should be the case, but these tares should grow together with the wheat till the harvest, the angels will be sent forth, who will gather out of the kingdom of God all that offend and do iniquity, and cast them into a furnace of fire, as branches withered, and fit to be burnt.
And every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. These are the other sort of branches, who are truly and savingly in Christ; such as are rooted in him; to whom he is the green fir tree, from whom all their fruit is found; who are filled by him with all the fruits of his Spirit, grace, and righteousness. These are purged or pruned, chiefly by afflictions and temptations, which are as needful for their growth and fruitfulness, as the pruning and cutting of the vines are for theirs; and though these are sometimes sharp, and never joyous, but grievous, yet they are attended with the peaceable fruits of righteousness, and so the end of bringing forth more fruit is answered; for it is not enough that a believer exercise grace, and perform good works for the present, but these must remain; or he must be constant herein, and still bring forth fruit, and add one virtue to another, that it may appear he is not barren and unfruitful in the knowledge of Christ, in whom he is implanted. These different acts of the vinedresser "taking away" some branches, and "purging" others, are expressed by the Misnic doctors (p) by פיסולה, and זירודה. The former, the commentators (q) say, signifies to cut off the branches that are withered and perished, and are good for nothing; and the latter signifies the pruning of the vine when it has a superfluity of branches, or these extend themselves too far; when some are left, and others taken off.
(p) Misn. Sheviith, c, 2. sect. 3. (q) Maimon. & Bartenora in ib.


...and so does Gill.

Shalom
Johann

'Husbands, love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church,
and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That He might present it to Himself a glorious church,
not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;
but that it should be holy and without blemish.'
(Eph 5:25-27)

Hello @Johann,

This is a very long post, and I cannot begin to attend to it tonight. I can only address the opening words concerning cleansing. The verses above came to my mind, and the words:- 'That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word'. It is the hearing and application of the word of God that cleanses the mind and heart, and adjusts the life and walk of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it?

* Thank you for your time and the trouble you have taken to record this information. I can see that it is a labour of love.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Johann]

'Husbands, love your wives,
even as Christ also loved the church,
and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That He might present it to Himself a glorious church,
not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing;
but that it should be holy and without blemish.'
(Eph 5:25-27)

Hello @Johann,

This is a very long post, and I cannot begin to attend to it tonight. I can only address the opening words concerning cleansing. The verses above came to my mind, and the words:- 'That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word'. It is the hearing and application of the word of God that cleanses the mind and heart, and adjusts the life and walk of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it?

* Thank you for your time and the trouble you have taken to record this information. I can see that it is a labour of love.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

Thank you @complete, I am not here to be combative, just seeking after truth.
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

 

[Brother-Paul]

* It is a fact that the branches of the vine, are frail and useless for anything other than bearing fruit (Ezek. 15:3-5). In the light of this, the words, 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' needs to be examined. Do the words, 'taketh away', mean that it is cut away? No, for the words, 'taketh (it) away' means 'raiseth', and is translated more than 40 times, 'take up', or 'lift up', etc., Take away is a secondary meaning. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch: but suggests patient care, raising the branch, training it, lifting it into the air and the sunshine, so that it will become fruitful. While the branches that bear fruit are purged that they may bring forth more fruit.

Greetings Chris,

Looking at the passage in Ezekiel, I cannot see a definate link here to John 15, except of course the words relating to Fire, Burned and similar.

So I take the key words and meaning in the Hebrew for comparison.

Scrioture - Ezek 15:3-5 KJV
3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
4 Behold, it is cast [H5414] into the fire [H784] for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned [H2787]. Is it meet for any work?
5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?


H5414 - CAST

Hebrew Word: נָתַן
Transliteration: nātan
Phonetic Pronunciation: naw-than’

English Words used in KJV:
give 1078
put 191
deliver 174
made 107
set 99
up 26
lay 22
grant 21
suffer 18
yield 15
bring 15
cause 13
utter 12
laid 11
send 11
recompense 11
appoint 10
shew 7

a primitive root; to give, used with great latitude of application (put, make, etc.):- add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, × avenge, × be ([healed]), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit, consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute, do, × doubtless, × without fail, fasten, frame, × get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), × have, × indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, × pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up), + sing, + slander, strike, [sub-] mit, suffer, × surely, × take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, × willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield.


H784 - FIRE
Hebrew Word: אֵשׁ
Transliteration: ʾēsh
Phonetic Pronunciation: aysh

English Words used in KJV:
fire 373
burning 1
fiery 1
untranslated variant 1
fire + <H800> 1
flaming 1
hot 1
a primitive word; fire (literal or figurative):- burning, fiery, fire, flaming, hot.


H398 - DEVOURETH
Hebrew Word: אָכַל
Transliteration: ʾākal
Phonetic Pronunciation: aw-kal’

English Words used in KJV:
eat 604
devour 111
consume 32
miscellaneous translations 55

a primitive root; to eat (literal or figurative):- × at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up), feed (with), food, × freely, × in … wise (-deed, plenty), (lay) meat, × quite.


H2787 - BURNED
Hebrew Word: חָרַר
Transliteration: ḥarar
Phonetic Pronunciation: khaw-rar’

English Words used in KJV:
burn 8
dried 1
angry 1
kindle 1

a primitive root; to glow, i.e. literal (to melt, burn, dry up) or figurative (to show or incite passion):- be angry, burn, dry, kindle.

I will now do the same for John 15

 

[Brother-Paul]

JOHN 15:1-10 KJV
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth [G5342] not fruit he taketh [G142] away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide [G3306] not in me, he is cast [G906] forth as a branch, and is withered [G3583]; and men gather them, and cast [G906] them into the fire [G4442], and they are burned [G2545].
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.


G5342 - BEARETH
Greek Word: φέρω
Transliteration: pherō
Phonetic Pronunciation: fer’-o

English Words used in KJV:
bring 34
bear 8
bring forth 5
come 3
reach 2
endure 2
carry 1

a primary verb; to “bear” or carry (in a very wide application, literal and figurative, as follows):- be, bear, bring (forth), carry, come.


G142 - HE TAKETH AWAY
Greek Word: αἴρω
Transliteration: airō
Phonetic Pronunciation: ah’ee-ro

English Words used in KJV:
take up 32
take away 25
take 25
away with 5
lift up 4
bear 3

a primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figurative to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specially to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor);
by Hebrew [compare <H5375> (nasa’)] to expiate sin:- away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, put away, remove, take (away, up).


G3306 - ABIDE (ABIDE NOT, THE OPPOSIT TO ABIDE)
Greek Word: μένω
Transliteration: menō
Phonetic Pronunciation: men’-o

English Words used in KJV:
abide 61
remain 16
dwell 15
continue 11
tarry 9
endure 3

a primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy):-
abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), × thine own.


G906 - CAST
Greek Word: βάλλω
Transliteration: ballō
Phonetic Pronunciation: bal’-lo

English Words used in KJV:
cast 86
put 13
thrust 5
cast out 4
lay 3
lie 2

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):-
arise, cast (out), × dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare <G4496> (rhipto).


G3583 - WITHERED
Greek Word: ξηραίνω
Transliteration: xērainō
Phonetic Pronunciation: xay-rah’ee-no

English Words used in KJV:
wither away 6
wither 5
dry up 3
pine away 1
be ripe 1

from <G3584> (xeros); to desiccate; by implication to shrivel:-
dry up, pine away, be ripe, wither (away).


G4442 - FIRE
Greek Word: πῦρ
Transliteration: pyr
Phonetic Pronunciation: poor

English Words used in KJV:
fire 73
fiery 1

a primary word; “fire” (literal or figurative, specially lightning):- fiery, fire.


G2545 - BURNED
Greek Word: καίω
Transliteration: kaiō
Phonetic Pronunciation: kah’-yo

English Words used in KJV:
burn 10
did burn + <G2258> 1
light 1
apparently a primary verb; to set on fire, i.e. kindle or (by implication) consume:- burn, light.

So from my reading I view John 15 as is stated in the Greek

The branch was no longer bearing fruit, so it was pruned out, cast out and burned by fire.
Cast out, thrown out, thrust out, it wasa as dung! G906 above.
The branch had withered away from God, from Jesus; it was no longer abiding in the Lord:-
it did not abide 61
it did not remain 16
it did not dwell 15
it did not continue 11
it did not tarry 9
it did not endure 3

I therefore take Jesus by His Word in John 15, the reading translated from the Greek does not give any other explanations to make me think differently.

Pruned out, cast out, totally removed from the vine and burned, because the branch was not bearing fruit, it had withered, it was like dung one comment states which sound like the fruit is rotten, in God's eyes. Not abiding in Christ. This is a strong message, an impotant message and stops OSAS in its tracks as a none runner and false teaching.

In His Love

Paul

 

[Brother-Paul]

In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins' (quote).

This is not mentioned in the scripture, in actual words, I agree totally but, according to what Jesus says, we are either abiding in Christ or we are not abiding in Christ.

Jesus tells us that if the branch has withered, no longer bearing fruit it is cut out, cast out and burned.

Jesus is giving another blunt statement like in John 3:3 and 3:5, if ylou are not born again of water and spirit, you will not see, you will not enter the Kingdom of God.

In the vine and the branches he is saying, we must abide, we must bear fruit, then he tells us the consequences of not abiding and not bearing fruit.

He takes a colourful picture and make the black and white stand out, so we don't miss othe point.

John 3 was directed to unbelievers receiving salvation and being added to the Kingdom,
John 15 is to the saved showing they can be cut out of the Kingdom, the vine, cast out and burned as they are not good for anything else.

In John 3, Jesus shares God's love by making sure people know how to be added to the Kingdom
In John 15, Jesus shares with believers His love, and that God does not want any to be lost.

My reply is based on the facts in the scripture, if we are cut from the vine where are we? If we are removed because we do not bear fruit and we are only fit to be burned, where does that put the person in this situation, certainly not in the vine. Where does that therefore leave the person?

It is all done in love, and we share in His love in all we discuss in His Name.

In His Love

Paul

 

[complete]

'I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman.
.. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away:
.... and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it,
...... that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
.. Abide in Me, and I in you.
.... the branch cannot bear fruit of itself,
...... except it abide in the vine;
........ no more can ye, except ye abide in Me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches:
.. He that abideth in Me and I in him,
.... the same bringeth forth much fruit:
...... for without me ye can do nothing.
........ If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered;
.......... and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.'
(John 15:1-6)

Hello @Brother-Paul,

In regard to the last sentence of your first paragraph (above), ' ... unbelievers, which include those pruned out of the vine, to judgement for their sins' (quote).

* The illustration of the Vine and the branches finds its realization in the Lord and His chosen. The Lord is the true Vine, (not the Type) Those who are likened to branches that 'abide', are called 'disciples' (John 15:8), while those chosen ones who abide are called 'friends' (15:14): and fruitfulness leads to answered prayer.

* The Vine in OT typology represents Israel:- 'Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt' (Psa. 80:8 & Isaiah 5:1-7). Israel failed to fulfil the glorious purpose of their calling, but in this as in all else Christ is the answer and the fulfilment. He is the 'true' vine, of which failing Israel was but the shadow.

* It is a fact that the branches of the vine, are frail and useless for anything other than bearing fruit (Ezek. 15:3-5). In the light of this, the words, 'Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away' needs to be examined. Do the words, 'taketh away', mean that it is cut away? No, for the words, 'taketh (it) away' means 'raiseth', and is translated more than 40 times, 'take up', or 'lift up', etc., Take away is a secondary meaning. The idea is not necessarily that the husbandman cuts away the unfruitful branch: but suggests patient care, raising the branch, training it, lifting it into the air and the sunshine, so that it will become fruitful. While the branches that bear fruit are purged that they may bring forth more fruit.

* To assume that the words, 'taketh away,' refers to unbelievers being 'pruned out' of the Vine, as you suggest: and thereby being subject to 'judgement', as you imply, I do not believe to be correct.

* The words, 'Ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you', indicate the spiritual interpretation of the 'pruning' or 'purging', as supplied by the Lord Himself: Every believer is once and forever cleansed. The, 'withered branch,' in (15:6) looks especially to Judas, for they were not all clean, as our Lord said with reference to Judas in (John 13:11):- 'For He knew who should betray Him; therefore said He, "Ye are not all clean."'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Subject Heading:- Once Saved Always Saved. Yes or No?

Hello @Brother-Paul,

The reference I gave in Ezekiel 15: 3-5.

Thank you for your further two responses concerning the Vine. Forgive me if I do not pursue it further, but I do not think we will come to agreement. I will stand by my entry #115 (above) in regard to this, and allow your input to go unchallenged. The word of God must be the Arbiter between us I believe.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[PloughBoy]

Greetings Chris,

Looking at the passage in Ezekiel, I cannot see a definate link here to John 15, except of course the words relating to Fire, Burned and similar.

So I take the key words and meaning in the Hebrew for comparison.

Scrioture - Ezek 15:3-5 KJV
3 Shall wood be taken thereof to do any work? or will men take a pin of it to hang any vessel thereon?
4 Behold, it is cast [H5414] into the fire [H784] for fuel; the fire devoureth both the ends of it, and the midst of it is burned [H2787]. Is it meet for any work?
5 Behold, when it was whole, it was meet for no work: how much less shall it be meet yet for any work, when the fire hath devoured it, and it is burned?


H5414 - CAST

Hebrew Word: נָתַן
Transliteration: nātan
Phonetic Pronunciation: naw-than’

English Words used in KJV:
give 1078
put 191
deliver 174
made 107
set 99
up 26
lay 22
grant 21
suffer 18
yield 15
bring 15
cause 13
utter 12
laid 11
send 11
recompense 11
appoint 10
shew 7

a primitive root; to give, used with great latitude of application (put, make, etc.):- add, apply, appoint, ascribe, assign, × avenge, × be ([healed]), bestow, bring (forth, hither), cast, cause, charge, come, commit, consider, count, + cry, deliver (up), direct, distribute, do, × doubtless, × without fail, fasten, frame, × get, give (forth, over, up), grant, hang (up), × have, × indeed, lay (unto charge, up), (give) leave, lend, let (out), + lie, lift up, make, + O that, occupy, offer, ordain, pay, perform, place, pour, print, × pull, put (forth), recompense, render, requite, restore, send (out), set (forth), shew, shoot forth (up), + sing, + slander, strike, [sub-] mit, suffer, × surely, × take, thrust, trade, turn, utter, + weep, × willingly, + withdraw, + would (to) God, yield.


H784 - FIRE
Hebrew Word: אֵשׁ
Transliteration: ʾēsh
Phonetic Pronunciation: aysh

English Words used in KJV:
fire 373
burning 1
fiery 1
untranslated variant 1
fire + <H800> 1
flaming 1
hot 1
a primitive word; fire (literal or figurative):- burning, fiery, fire, flaming, hot.


H398 - DEVOURETH
Hebrew Word: אָכַל
Transliteration: ʾākal
Phonetic Pronunciation: aw-kal’

English Words used in KJV:
eat 604
devour 111
consume 32
miscellaneous translations 55

a primitive root; to eat (literal or figurative):- × at all, burn up, consume, devour (-er, up), dine, eat (-er, up), feed (with), food, × freely, × in … wise (-deed, plenty), (lay) meat, × quite.


H2787 - BURNED
Hebrew Word: חָרַר
Transliteration: ḥarar
Phonetic Pronunciation: khaw-rar’

English Words used in KJV:
burn 8
dried 1
angry 1
kindle 1

a primitive root; to glow, i.e. literal (to melt, burn, dry up) or figurative (to show or incite passion):- be angry, burn, dry, kindle.

I will now do the same for John 15

Now

complete​

You are way over their Heads. Remember now> "The Height, The Width, The Length, And The Deep." We must remember "How High, How wide, How long,, How Deep. You are out there By yourself They don't know what you are talking about. Keep going you will see.

Ephesians: 3 (KJV)

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[PloughBoy]

Subject Heading:- Once Saved Always Saved. Yes or No?

Hello @Brother-Paul,

The reference I gave in Ezekiel 15: 3-5.

Thank you for your further two responses concerning the Vine. Forgive me if I do not pursue it further, but I do not think we will come to agreement. I will stand by my entry #115 (above) in regard to this, and allow your input to go unchallenged. The word of God must be the Arbiter between us I believe.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

Now

@complete​

You are way over their Heads. Remember now> "The Height, The Width, The Length, And The Deep." We must remember "How High, How wide, How long,, How Deep. You are out there By yourself They don't know what you are talking about. Keep going you will see.

Ephesians: 3 (KJV)

14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Chris,

There are a number of things I am not settled on, and feel we should plod further, prayerfully and in love.

I always believe never say never, we learn daily, and the Holy Spirit has a lovely way of dropping something else in our lap to think about.

The couple of things are

- Jesus was talking to the eleven, his disciples, no outsiders.
- v6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and MEN GATHERED THEM, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

1 Cor 3:15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Lot is an example: he was out of fellowship with the Lord, he ceased to bear fruit to His glory, and his dead works were all burned up in Sodom; yet he himself was saved! I understand in the original text it is not “men gather them,” but “they gather them. Who are 'the men'?

Matthew 13:41-42 states: The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will 'gather out of His kingdom' all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Here we see... Angels gather “all things that offend” and “them which do iniquity.”

John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Cor 5:10 states. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Here seems to be a most solemn warning and heart-searching prospect for every Christian.
Either your life and my life is, as the result of continuous fellowship with Christ, bringing forth fruit to the glory of the Father, fruit which will remain; or,
because of neglect of communion with Him, we are in immense danger of being set aside as His witnesses on earth, to bring forth only that which the fire will consume in a coming Day

The weight of evidence so far, still points me the OSAS is false, but there is still things to consider, all scrioture is God breathed and as well as sharing in love we must all keep an open mind, and continue to abide in Him so He can continue to abide in us.

One thing is very clear, John 15 as beautifukl as the picture is, it carries a serious warning to all believers who are born again from above.

In His Love

Paul

 

[B-A-C]

You are way over their Heads. Remember now> "The Height, The Width, The Length, And The Deep." We must remember "How High, How wide, How long,, How Deep. You are out there By yourself They don't know what you are talking about. Keep going you will see.

It's great that God loves you. he loves everyone, even unsaved sinners. The love of God is not the salvation of God. Just because God loves someone doesn't mean they are saved.

 

[PloughBoy]

It's great that God loves you. he loves everyone, even unsaved sinners. The love of God is not the salvation of God. Just because God loves someone doesn't mean they are saved.

God hates anyone he wants to hate, God kills anyone he wants to Hate, GOD Loves who He wants to LOVE! There is no unrighteousness in GOD,,For HE is GOD and not A man! GOD Does what He wants to do, If he decides he wants to raise "PHARAOH's ARMY and then DROWN in The RED SEA! That is GOD 's Business. If he wants to kill every 1st. Born baby in Egypt and kill every women with child in the promise land that is is HIS Business.

And Who Can QUESTION HIM and ASK Him ,What are you doing?

Romans 9
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

JOB 8
New American Standard Bible
“If He were to snatch away, who could restrain Him? Who could say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’

New American Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

You better be glad, Your name is written down in The "LAMBS Book of LIFE" He chose you! You did not choose HIM!

He hates who he wants to Hate, He send who HE WANTS TO! SEND TO HELL! And He HATES THE WICKED EVERYDAY ! And HE has his "BOW" DRAWN"

JESUS has already told us To "FEAR HIM" The FATHER ain't no JOKE. The HEAVEN and the EARTH Fled and could not find a place to Hide!

 

[Johann]

God hates anyone he wants to hate, God kills anyone he wants to Hate, GOD Loves who He wants to LOVE! There is no unrighteousness in GOD,,For HE is GOD and not A man! GOD Does what He wants to do, If he decides he wants to raise "PHARAOH's ARMY and then DROWN in The RED SEA! That is GOD 's Business. If he wants to kill every 1st. Born baby in Egypt and kill every women with child in the promise land that is is HIS Business.

And Who Can QUESTION HIM and ASK Him ,What are you doing?

Romans 9
"And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

JOB 8
New American Standard Bible
“If He were to snatch away, who could restrain Him? Who could say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’

New American Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?

You better be glad, Your name is written down in The "LAMBS Book of LIFE" He chose you! You did not choose HIM!

He hates who he wants to Hate, He send who HE WANTS TO! SEND TO HELL! And He HATES THE WICKED EVERYDAY ! And HE has his "BOW" DRAWN"

JESUS has already told us To "FEAR HIM" The FATHER ain't no JOKE. The HEAVEN and the EARTH Fled and could not find a place to Hide!

I would really appreciate to remove the emoji's from the Holy Scriptures.
Shalom
Johann

 

[PloughBoy]

I would really appreciate to remove the emoji's from the Holy Scriptures.
Shalom
Johann

You stand to be corrected "dime store cowboy" you mean a "translation" do you know the difference between a "translation" "Holy Scripture", "A Bible" and a "Original Copied Manuscript of The Original BiBlICAL TEXT, and all of The CANONS for the common day.

Slow your Roll. You got the wrong one. So my advice, regroup. And I am being kind. JOHANN and bark up another tree! Because you are out of your league. Now go away quietly and be at peace.

Shalom

 

[Johann]

You stand to be corrected "dime store cowboy" you mean a "translation" do you know the difference between a "translation" "Holy Scripture", "A Bible" and a "Original Copied Manuscript of The Original BiBlICAL TEXT, and all of The CANONS for the common day.

Slow your Roll. You got the wrong one. So my advice, regroup. And I am being kind. JOHANN and bark up another tree! Because you are out of your league. Now go away quietly and be at peace.

Shalom

Is this the way and manner you interact with the members here?
You are "in league" while I am "out of league?"
brings this scripture to mind, immediately...

αγαπητοι μη παντι πνευματι πιστευετε αλλα δοκιμαζετε τα πνευματα ει εκ του θεου εστιν οτι πολλοι ψευδοπροφηται εξεληλυθασιν εις τον κοσμον

Shalom
Enjoy your day.

 

[PloughBoy]

It's great that God loves you. he loves everyone, even unsaved sinners. The love of God is not the salvation of God. Just because God loves someone doesn't mean they are saved.

And just for clarity, JESUS The Christ of GOD is "THE SALVATION of GOD" per se 'The Biblical text"

New American Standard Bible
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD!’”

New American Standard Bible
For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

Isaiah 52:10
The LORD has bared His holy arm in the sight of all the nations; all the ends of the earth will see THE SALVATION of our GOD.

Acts 28:28
Be advised, therefore, that GOD'S SALVATION has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

 

[PloughBoy]

Is this the way and manner you interact with the members here?
You are "in league" while I am "out of league?"
brings this scripture to mind, immediately...

αγαπητοι μη παντι πνευματι πιστευετε αλλα δοκιμαζετε τα πνευματα ει εκ του θεου εστιν οτι πολλοι ψευδοπροφηται εξεληλυθασιν εις τον κοσμον

Shalom
Enjoy your day.

No wood, no smoke, maybe no smoke no fire. So, let sleeping dogs lie.

And grow up, and stop acting like a "Barbarian". it is unbecoming to you. and bring something to the table.

 

[Brother-Paul]