ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? YES and NO!

[Brother-Paul]

Proverbs 6: 16-19

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

This post is Not directed at anyone, just sharing God’s Word

 

[Johann]

Proverbs 6: 16-19

These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

This post is Not directed at anyone, just sharing God’s Word

Aside from the tense of this word….there are tons of contextual problems with the doctrines of “instant sanctification” and “eternal security” as well. Those two beliefs seem to contradict much of what the Apostles taught and wrote concerning salvation. From Peter through James and Paul….they all seem to point to salvation being an ongoing process. The patterns in how they taught about it all seem to point to the idea that sanctification is not just “something extra”…..that it is absolutely a NECESSARY part of being saved, “seeing the Lord,” “entering the Kingdom of Heaven,” and however else the Bible words it. A overwhelming amount of scrip also points to the fact that this process of being sanctifies and thus saved, IS indeed ongoing (“die daily,” “take up your cross daily,” etc) as long as we live.

In translating the NT Greek texts, we also find the Greek root word for salvation, “soteria” being used in 3 distinct WAYS. 12% of its NT usage refers to physical healing, 62% refers to deliverance from sin or death IN THIS LIFE (presently), and only 26% of the time is it used in the eternal life message.

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification?


Sanctification is God’s will for us (1 Thessalonians 4:3). The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him holy.



Jesus had a lot to say about sanctification in John 17. In verse 16 the Lord says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it,” and this is before His request: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” (verse 17). In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification.

While we are positionally holy (“set free from every sin” by the blood of Christ, Acts 13:39), we know that we still sin (1 John 1:10). That’s why the Bible also refers to sanctification as a practical experience of our separation unto God. “Progressive” or “experiential” sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it (Philippians 1:6). This type of sanctification is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14) and is effected by the application of the Word (John 17:17). Progressive sanctification has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world: “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified” (John 17:18–19). That Jesus set Himself apart for God’s purpose is both the basis and the condition of our being set apart (see John 10:36). We are sanctified and sent because Jesus was. Our Lord’s sanctification is the pattern of and power for our own. The sending and the sanctifying are inseparable. On this account we are called “saints” (hagioi in the Greek), or “sanctified ones.” Prior to salvation, our behavior bore witness to our standing in the world in separation from God, but now our behavior should bear witness to our standing before God in separation from the world. Little by little, every day, “those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14, ESV) are becoming more like Christ.

There is a third sense in which the word sanctification is used in Scripture—a “complete” or “ultimate” sanctification. This is the same as glorification. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV). Paul speaks of Christ as “the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) and links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. “We know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

To summarize, “sanctification” is a translation of the Greek word hagiasmos, meaning “holiness” or “a separation.” In the past, God granted us justification, a once-for-all, positional holiness in Christ. Now, God guides us to maturity, a practical, progressive holiness. In the future, God will give us glorification, a permanent, ultimate holiness. These three phases of sanctification separate the believer from the penalty of sin (justification), the power of sin (maturity), and the presence of sin (glorification).

That is why I am saying, sanctification is first a "STATE"...then ongoing/progressive.

The Great Apostle enjoins upon the Corinthians a cleansing from all defilement and a perfecting of holiness. He makes it clear that the cleansing is a crisis event in the lives of believers, while the perfecting of holiness is a continuing process that is founded upon that crisis. The English term cleanse is, in the Greek, the hortatory aorist subjunctive καθαρίσωμεv, katharis_men: “let us cleanse.” It is in the aorist tense and as such denotes a crisis event. The English term perfecting is in the original text the present tense participle _πιτελo_vτες, epitelountes. Since the tense is the present, the perfecting denotes an on-going process. And the strict sequence of the tenses, first the aorist and secondly the present, unmistakably defines the order: first the crisis experience of sanctification and then the continuing life-experience of progress in Christian grace.

I am not advocating the Wesleyan holiness movement.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

The point of the discussion and the title of the topic is not whether a person is sanctified, but is a person, OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved or Not.

There is a big difference in what you are saying and the answer to the question I feel.

I notice you tend to flip from translation to translation, sometimes noting the translation and sometimes using another translation and not stating which you are using, I feel this is not good. Is it not better to use one translation and if you want to add another include the two.

Sanctification is God’s will for us (1 Thessalonians 4:3). The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him holy.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NLT I think)
3 God's will is, for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.

Plea for Purity​

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (NKJV)
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that YOU SHOULD abound more and more, just as you received from us how YOU OUGHT TO walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

3 FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that YOU SHOULD abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you SHOULD KNOW how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that NO ONE SHOULD take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 THERE FOR HE WHO REJECTS THIS does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.

Jesus had a lot to say about sanctification in John 17. In verse 16 the Lord says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it,” and this is before His request: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” (verse 17).

John 17:16-17 (NLT I think)
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

John 17:6-19 (NKJV)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have KEPT YOUR WORD.
7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and THEY HAVE RECEIVED THEM, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they MAY BE one as We are. 12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM in THE WORLD, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should KEEP THEM FROM the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM in THE WORLD, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus refers here to the actual time he was with his disciples in this statement. He refers to the fact none of them has been lost, except the son of perdition, while 'I was with them in the world.'

In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV).

1 Corinthians 1:30 (ESV)
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Glory Only in the Lord​

1 Corinthians 1:26-30 (NKJV)
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

This section is relating to giving GLORY for those things. GLORY ONLY in the Lord

The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10).

Hebrew 10:10 (NLT)
FOR GOD'S WILL WAS for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will​

Hebrew 10:5-10 NKJV
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying,
“Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 BY THAT WILL we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Here the context is towards the fulfillment through Christ's death on the cross, sacrices and offerings are no longer necessary, no longer required.
Jesus was/is the perfect sacrice, once for all.

I can follow on but feel I have included enough

Above we can read the will of GOD \o/
We are told things 'we should know' \o/
And how to possess our own vessel in sanctification and honor, NOT IN passion of lust
- tells us what we should do with a warning of sin.
NO ONE SHOULD take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
- no one should means some could
God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. THEREFORE HE WHO REJECTS THIS does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
- means we could reject thias



John 15:1-6 (NKJV)

The True Vine​

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, NEITHER CAN YOU, unless YOU ABIDE IN ME.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES IN ME, and I IN HIM, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 IF 'ANYONE' DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is WITHERED; and they gather them and throw them INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED.

CONCLUSION in reply also to the Title of the thread
Once Saved always saved does not stand up, the Warnings, I believe, are clear, whoever preaches such is a fool, it also misguides people to think they are saved and will stand before Jesus in judgement, 'Away from me, I know you not'

Shared in His Love

Paul

 

[Johann]

whoever preaches such is a fool, it also misguides people to think they are saved and will stand before Jesus in judgement, 'Away from me, I know you not'

Then I am a fool for Christ's sake and He is my Judge, not you.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

The point of the discussion and the title of the topic is not whether a person is sanctified, but is a person, OSAS, Once Saved Always Saved or Not.

There is a big difference in what you are saying and the answer to the question I feel.

I notice you tend to flip from translation to translation, sometimes noting the translation and sometimes using another translation and not stating which you are using, I feel this is not good. Is it not better to use one translation and if you want to add another include the two.





1 Thessalonians 4:3 (NLT I think)
3 God's will is, for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin.

Plea for Purity​

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (NKJV)
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that YOU SHOULD abound more and more, just as you received from us how YOU OUGHT TO walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.

3 FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that YOU SHOULD abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you SHOULD KNOW how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that NO ONE SHOULD take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 THERE FOR HE WHO REJECTS THIS does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.






John 17:16-17 (NLT I think)
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

John 17:6-19 (NKJV)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have KEPT YOUR WORD.
7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and THEY HAVE RECEIVED THEM, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they MAY BE one as We are. 12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM in THE WORLD, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should KEEP THEM FROM the evil one.
16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

12 WHILE I WAS WITH THEM in THE WORLD, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus refers here to the actual time he was with his disciples in this statement. He refers to the fact none of them has been lost, except the son of perdition, while 'I was with them in the world.'






1 Corinthians 1:30 (ESV)
And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption

Glory Only in the Lord​

1 Corinthians 1:26-30 (NKJV)
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

This section is relating to giving GLORY for those things. GLORY ONLY in the Lord





Hebrew 10:10 (NLT)
FOR GOD'S WILL WAS for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time.

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will​

Hebrew 10:5-10 NKJV
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying,
“Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
10 BY THAT WILL we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Here the context is towards the fulfillment through Christ's death on the cross, sacrices and offerings are no longer necessary, no longer required.
Jesus was/is the perfect sacrice, once for all.

I can follow on but feel I have included enough

Above we can read the will of GOD \o/
We are told things 'we should know' \o/
And how to possess our own vessel in sanctification and honor, NOT IN passion of lust
- tells us what we should do with a warning of sin.
NO ONE SHOULD take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
- no one should means some could
God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. THEREFORE HE WHO REJECTS THIS does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
- means we could reject thias



John 15:1-6 (NKJV)

The True Vine​

1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, NEITHER CAN YOU, unless YOU ABIDE IN ME.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES IN ME, and I IN HIM, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 IF 'ANYONE' DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, he is CAST OUT as a branch and is WITHERED; and they gather them and throw them INTO THE FIRE, and they are BURNED.

CONCLUSION in reply also to the Title of the thread
Once Saved always saved does not stand up, the Warnings, I believe, are clear, whoever preaches such is a fool, it also misguides people to think they are saved and will stand before Jesus in judgement, 'Away from me, I know you not'

Shared in His Love

Paul

It would seem you only have a "chapter gospel" John 15...forgetting the 13 epistles of Paul and the seven mysteries.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Then I am a fool for Christ's sake and He is my Judge, not you.

Shalom
Johann

I woke in the night, as I do many times, and guessed you would read what I put incorrectly.

Allow me to explain, the statement was in love, not as judgement, I do not judge my friend. I don't think you will receive these statement as meant either but I share them in love.

Firstly, I apologise if the message was taken as harsh, but cvonfirm there was a reason for stating what put in it the way I did.

This is why I used the word, fool, in this instance.

We ask, as the OP did, is OSAS a right or wrong belief based on the scriptures? You say right, I say wrong; now we must take on board each others views, as I have, we are both making our decision from scripture, so far I am sure you agree.

But, and here is the but; what you have provided from scripture does not in my view stand up against, what our Lord says to His disciples in John 15. So it seems you cannot see or accept what Jesus is saying regarding, being cut from the vine, removed, cut away, even though Jesus to great detail. I accept your view, though I disagree with it on the basis already explained, you have a view brother and I have another, and we note in both situations we are not on our own with our thinking, either of us.

Now, accepting you and I have different views, what is clear is for our different reasoning, we could therefore say, the situation is not black and white enough to make a definite stand, let us consider this the case. So when preaching what do we do and what are the consequences.

- If I, or others, preach that OSAS is false belief based on Jesus' words in, John 15, there is no way I can deceive a believer into believing incorrect doctrine.
- If on the other hand, you or others, preach OSAS as true doctrine, and you are wrong, then it is clear you could very easily be misguiding the flock into believing a false truth. Once saved always saved, and if they fall away they have nothing to worry about. Really.

On the basis of Jesus Words in John 15, He gives every reason for us to consider OSAS is incorrect, therefore to preach as such is a real concern, or should be, hence the word fool to make the point, although I repeat it was in love.

On judgement day, when a believer stands in front of the Lord Jesus Christ, and He judges us for what we have done or not done according to the Word, what will He say if the person in front of Him is guilty of misguiding believers who were born again, into thinking they were saved and end up, cut out, of the vine, as Jesus clearly says will happen.

I personally walk on the side of caution, if two items conflict for any reason, re-consider the scriptures and also the consequences of preachiung an untruth. I do not feel there is a conflict here but I assess the situation so as not to be guilty of misleading any souls, saved or not, regarding The Word we will be all judged by.

So feeling in my heart these deep concerns, and based on the conversation here, I felt it was right to use the word fool, as it was in love for God, in love for Jesus, The Word, in love for not wanting souls to be cut from the vine.

I conclude in love and pray you receive this reply in love also.

Paul

 

[Brother-Paul]

It would seem you only have a "chapter gospel" John 15...forgetting the 13 epistles of Paul and the seven mysteries.

Shalom
Johann

Greetings brother,

I feel your manner can rub people up a little, I have seen it has, that is sad.

The reason John 15 is quoted as I have is because, some don't seem to want to accept what Jesus is saying, He gives us a very colourful message in the parable, but He also includes words which should make us think.

ALL Scripture is God breathed, ALL Scripture. There is a saying love is blind, and it is true, our love from God can blind us from things we do not want to hear.

Did Jesus turn over the money changers tables, through love or through being anger?

I remember a retired preacher in the congregation some years ago, everything he preached and said was based on God is Love. Although as we know, God is love, God is also a strict but fair Father who does give us warnings and will reprimand us as He sees fit.

I also rermember one particular member of a congregation, who also believed God is love, but whilst chatting with him he confirmed, he does not believe all the end time stuff, and a loving God would never punish us.

ALL Scripture is God breathed.

As for quoting John 15, let me just say, there is enough in those verses, directly from the Lord, to say that onc e saved always saved is not true and is false doctrine.

In His Love

Paul

 

[Johann]

I feel your manner can rub people up a little, I have seen it has, that is sad.

Just pointing out the truth, and hits a raw nerve, hence the reaction from people @Brother Paul

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
4:2 In view of God's present observation of His servants and of His future reward, Timothy should herald the word. He should do so with a sense of urgency, availing himself of every opportunity. The message is in season at all times, even when some might think it to be out of season. As a servant of Christ, Timothy will be called upon to convince, that is, to prove or refute. He will have to rebuke what is false. He will be required to exhort or encourage sinners to believe and saints to go on for the Lord. In all of this, he must be unfailing in patient longsuffering and in the faithful teaching of sound doctrine.
4:3 In verses 3-6, the apostle gives two strong reasons for the charge he has just given. The first is that there will be a general turning away from wholesome doctrine. The second is that Paul's time of departure is at hand.
The apostle foresees a time when people will show a positive distaste for health-giving teaching. They will willfully turn away from those who teach the truth of God's word. Their ears will itch for doctrines that are pleasing and comfortable. To satisfy their lust for novel and gratifying doctrine, they will accumulate a group of teachers who will tell them what they want to hear.
4:4 The lust for inoffensive preaching will cause people to turn their ears away from the truth to myths. It is a poor exchange—to sacrifice truth for fables—but this is the wretched reward of those who refuse sound doctrine.
4:5 To be watchful in all things really means to be sober in all things. Timothy should be serious in his work, temperate, and well-balanced. He should not shun afflictions but should suffer willingly whatever hardships might come to him in his service for Christ.

Will turn aside (ektrapēsontai). Second future passive of ektrepō. They prefer “myths” to “the truth” as some today turn away to “humanism,” “bolshevism,” “new thought” or any other fad that will give a new momentary thrill to their itching ears and morbid minds.
Robertson

Yes?

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

Greetings brother,

I feel your manner can rub people up a little, I have seen it has, that is sad.

The reason John 15 is quoted as I have is because, some don't seem to want to accept what Jesus is saying, He gives us a very colourful message in the parable, but He also includes words which should make us think.

ALL Scripture is God breathed, ALL Scripture. There is a saying love is blind, and it is true, our love from God can blind us from things we do not want to hear.

Did Jesus turn over the money changers tables, through love or through being anger?

I remember a retired preacher in the congregation some years ago, everything he preached and said was based on God is Love. Although as we know, God is love, God is also a strict but fair Father who does give us warnings and will reprimand us as He sees fit.

I also rermember one particular member of a congregation, who also believed God is love, but whilst chatting with him he confirmed, he does not believe all the end time stuff, and a loving God would never punish us.

ALL Scripture is God breathed.

As for quoting John 15, let me just say, there is enough in those verses, directly from the Lord, to say that onc e saved always saved is not true and is false doctrine.

In His Love

Paul

Let's agree to disagree, and preach Christ Jesus.
BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Called, The Scriptures, The Law, &c.

For alphabetical arrangement of topics, see Index.
(Select Readings Psa_119)
Deu_6:4-12; Psa_19:7-11; Psa_119:1
(1) General References to
2Sa_22:31; Psa_12:6; Psa_119:9; Psa_119:50; Psa_147:15; Mar_12:24; Luk_8:11; Eph_6:17
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
& BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Law, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Statutes, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Truth, TRUTH
Gospel, GOSPEL
(2) Despised by the Foolish
--SEE, 2968
(3) The Book of the Ages
Psa_119:89; Psa_119:152; Isa_40:8; Mat_5:18; Mat_24:35; 1Pe_1:25
--SEE The Enduring, ENDURING
(4) Food for the Soul
Deu_8:3; Job_23:12; Psa_119:103; Jer_15:16; Eze_2:8; Eze_3:1
Mat_4:4; 1Pe_2:2
--SEE Spiritual Feasts, FOOD
Spiritual Food, FOOD
(5) Divinely Inspired
Jer_36:2; Eze_1:3; Act_1:16; Act_28:25; 2Ti_3:16; 2Pe_1:21
Rev_1:1; Rev_14:3
--SEE Inspiration, INSPIRATION, DIVINE
(6) Precepts Written in the Heart
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:18; Deu_30:14; Psa_119:11; Luk_2:51; Rom_10:8; Col_3:16
--SEE Law in the Heart, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Furnishes a Light in Darkness
Psa_19:8; Psa_119:105; Psa_119:130; Pro_6:23; 2Pe_1:19
(8) Loved by the Saints
Psa_119:47; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:82; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:140; Psa_119:163; Jer_15:16
(9) MIGHTY IN ITS INFLUENCE
A Devouring Flame
Jer_5:14
A Crushing Hammer
Jer_23:29
A Life-giving Force
Eze_37:7; Act_19:20
A Saving Power
Rom_1:16
A Defensive Weapon
Eph_6:17
A Probing Instrument
Heb_4:12
--SEE Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
& WORDS OF CHRIST
(10) A Blessing to Those Who Reverence it
Jos_1:8; Psa_19:11; Mat_7:24; Luk_11:28; Joh_5:24; Joh_8:31; Rev_1:3
(11) Purifies the Life
Psa_119:9; Joh_15:3; Joh_17:17; Eph_5:26; 1Pe_1:22
(12) WRITTEN WITH A PURPOSE
To Authenticate the Divinity of Christ
Joh_20:31
To give Hope to Men
Rom_15:4
To Relate Human Experience as a Warning
1Co_10:11
To give Knowledge of Eternal Life
1Jo_5:13
--SEE Aids to Faith, FAITH
(13) Read in the Great Congregation
Exo_24:7; Jos_8:34; Jer_36:8; Luk_4:16; Col_4:16
--SEE Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Instruction given, INSTRUCTION
(14) The Standard of Faith and Duty
Pro_29:18; Isa_8:20; Joh_12:48; Gal_1:8; 1Th_2:13
(15) Its Words Sacred, not to be Altered
Deu_4:2; Deu_12:32; Pro_30:6; Rev_22:19
--SEE Reverence (1), REVERENCE
(16) The Study of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Isa_34:16; Joh_5:39; Act_17:11; Rom_15:4
--SEE Knowledge (3), KNOWLEDGE
Wisdom Sought, WISDOM
(17) Contains Seed-Corn for the Sower
Psa_126:6; Mar_4:14; Mar_4:15; 2Co_9:10
--SEE Spiritual Sowing, SOWING
(18) Absolutely Trustworthy
1Ki_8:56; Psa_93:5; Psa_111:7; Eze_12:25; Dan_9:12
Mat_5:18; Luk_21:33; Rom_4:16
--SEE Faithfulness, Divine, FAITHFULNESS
Fulfilment, PROPHECY
& PROPHECY
(19) Profitable for Instruction
Deu_4:10; Deu_11:19; 2Ch_17:9; Neh_8:13; Isa_2:3; Act_18:28
--SEE Instruction (2), INSTRUCTION
Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(20) Ignorance of, Perilous
Mat_12:3; Mat_19:4; Mat_22:29; Joh_20:9; Act_13:27; 2Co_3:15
--SEE Spiritual Ignorance, IGNORANCE
(21) It Contains the Message to be Delivered
Jer_1:7; Jer_1:17; Jer_11:2; Eze_2:7; Eze_3:17; Act_5:20; Tit_2:15
--SEE Preaching (2), LEADERS
(22) Purity of
Psa_12:6; Psa_18:30; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:140; Pro_30:5; Isa_45:19
(B) THE LAW part of
(1) Ceremonial Abolished in Christ
Eph_2:15; Col_2:14; Heb_7:18; Heb_8:13; Heb_10:1; Heb_12:27
(2) Perfection of the Divine
Psa_19:7; Psa_119:142; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; 1Ti_1:8
(3) Keeping of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Jos_23:6; 1Ch_22:12; Pro_28:7
--SEE Obedience (1), 2614
Book of the Law, GOD'S
Testimonies, TESTIMONIES
Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
(4) In the Heart
Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Jer_31:33; Jer_32:40; Rom_2:15; Rom_7:22; 2Co_3:3
Heb_8:10; Heb_10:16
--SEE 418
(5) Despised
2Ch_36:16; Psa_78:10; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:9; Jer_6:19; Jer_9:13
Hos_4:6; Amo_2:4; Mar_7:9
--SEE Instruction Despised, REJECTION of God and truth
Despisers, DESPISERS
(6) The Public Reading of
Deu_31:11; Jos_8:35; 2Ki_23:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:18; Neh_13:1; Jer_36:6
--SEE "Word" Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Impartiality of
Exo_12:49; Lev_24:22; Num_9:14; Num_15:16
--SEE Strangers (3), STRANGERS
(C) STATUTES contained in
(1) General References to
Exo_15:26; Lev_26:46; Deu_4:5; Deu_16:12; 1Ki_3:14; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:12; Psa_119:54
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(2) Perpetual, given to Israel
Lev_23:14; Lev_23:31; Lev_24:3; Lev_24:9; Num_18:11; Num_19:21
(D) COMMANDMENTS contained in
(1) General References to
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:8; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:6; Mat_15:3; Mat_22:38; 1Jo_5:3
(2) To be Kept
Exo_20:6; Deu_4:40; Deu_6:17; Deu_10:13; Deu_26:18; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3
1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; Psa_78:7
Eze_44:24; Mat_19:17; 1Jo_5:3; Rev_14:12
--SEE Obedience (1), OBEDIENCE
Decalogue, DECALOGUE, THE
Tables of Stone, 3543
Words Kept, WORDS OF CHRIST
1Co_1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

In one of my posts I asked a question....is this "love all, offend none" biblical?

I asked another question.
Does water baptism "put us" into Christ Jesus?

No response so far.

I think you would agree with me that not everyone on a CF Forum is a Christian, a genuine blood bought, sealed with the Holy Spirit Christian, yes?
Warning Against False Teachers
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Christ Jesus Came to Save Sinners
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

...and not everyone that quotes scriptures is a Christian, yes?
Even the demons believe, and they tremble...[and can quote scriptures]

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here is another question to you, if I believe in the Triune Godhead, and you don't, is this going to bring a division between us, affecting our salvation?

I don't believe in OSAS because of our "Reformers and what they taught" but what I have studied myself, the Perfect, Present, Middle, Aorist.

Also there are two types of questions
Genuine questions, to be informed, and there is nothing wrong with "commentaries"
And ekpeiradzo questions, and there are plenty of those.

https://leadingwithquestions.com/leadership/you-can-download-for-free-today-339-questions-jesus-asked/

The above is free, gratis, for Nada, and Jesus offended many when He walked this earth and still people are "offended" in the Messiah and His messengers.

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on...why?

Where is the "true ekklesia and soma of Yeshua HaMashiach?"

In a sense I do agree with you, the truth lays buried under opinions and preconceived ideologies is the norm for today.

Olam, everlasting is not everlasting, to most, redefining scriptures everywhere, quoting scriptures out of context, twisting, perverting the infallible aleithia.

This was said and typed in love, brother.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

ALL Scripture is God breathed, ALL Scripture. There is a saying love is blind, and it is true, our love from God can blind us from things we do not want to hear.

...yet you "stay/abide/remain" in Yochanan 15?
Are you neglecting the "hard sayings" of our brother Paul, his 13 epistles, can you tell me what the mysteries are?

You have the "Before the Cross, and AFTER the Cross" Yes?

What are the mysteries given to Paul that the OT prophets knew nothing about?

Simple questions, not being combative, just answer them.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Johann]

Let's agree to disagree, and preach Christ Jesus.
BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Called, The Scriptures, The Law, &c.

For alphabetical arrangement of topics, see Index.
(Select Readings Psa_119)
Deu_6:4-12; Psa_19:7-11; Psa_119:1
(1) General References to
2Sa_22:31; Psa_12:6; Psa_119:9; Psa_119:50; Psa_147:15; Mar_12:24; Luk_8:11; Eph_6:17
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
& BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Law, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Statutes, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Truth, TRUTH
Gospel, GOSPEL
(2) Despised by the Foolish
--SEE, 2968
(3) The Book of the Ages
Psa_119:89; Psa_119:152; Isa_40:8; Mat_5:18; Mat_24:35; 1Pe_1:25
--SEE The Enduring, ENDURING
(4) Food for the Soul
Deu_8:3; Job_23:12; Psa_119:103; Jer_15:16; Eze_2:8; Eze_3:1
Mat_4:4; 1Pe_2:2
--SEE Spiritual Feasts, FOOD
Spiritual Food, FOOD
(5) Divinely Inspired
Jer_36:2; Eze_1:3; Act_1:16; Act_28:25; 2Ti_3:16; 2Pe_1:21
Rev_1:1; Rev_14:3
--SEE Inspiration, INSPIRATION, DIVINE
(6) Precepts Written in the Heart
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:18; Deu_30:14; Psa_119:11; Luk_2:51; Rom_10:8; Col_3:16
--SEE Law in the Heart, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Furnishes a Light in Darkness
Psa_19:8; Psa_119:105; Psa_119:130; Pro_6:23; 2Pe_1:19
(8) Loved by the Saints
Psa_119:47; Psa_119:72; Psa_119:82; Psa_119:97; Psa_119:140; Psa_119:163; Jer_15:16
(9) MIGHTY IN ITS INFLUENCE
A Devouring Flame
Jer_5:14
A Crushing Hammer
Jer_23:29
A Life-giving Force
Eze_37:7; Act_19:20
A Saving Power
Rom_1:16
A Defensive Weapon
Eph_6:17
A Probing Instrument
Heb_4:12
--SEE Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
& WORDS OF CHRIST
(10) A Blessing to Those Who Reverence it
Jos_1:8; Psa_19:11; Mat_7:24; Luk_11:28; Joh_5:24; Joh_8:31; Rev_1:3
(11) Purifies the Life
Psa_119:9; Joh_15:3; Joh_17:17; Eph_5:26; 1Pe_1:22
(12) WRITTEN WITH A PURPOSE
To Authenticate the Divinity of Christ
Joh_20:31
To give Hope to Men
Rom_15:4
To Relate Human Experience as a Warning
1Co_10:11
To give Knowledge of Eternal Life
1Jo_5:13
--SEE Aids to Faith, FAITH
(13) Read in the Great Congregation
Exo_24:7; Jos_8:34; Jer_36:8; Luk_4:16; Col_4:16
--SEE Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Instruction given, INSTRUCTION
(14) The Standard of Faith and Duty
Pro_29:18; Isa_8:20; Joh_12:48; Gal_1:8; 1Th_2:13
(15) Its Words Sacred, not to be Altered
Deu_4:2; Deu_12:32; Pro_30:6; Rev_22:19
--SEE Reverence (1), REVERENCE
(16) The Study of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Isa_34:16; Joh_5:39; Act_17:11; Rom_15:4
--SEE Knowledge (3), KNOWLEDGE
Wisdom Sought, WISDOM
(17) Contains Seed-Corn for the Sower
Psa_126:6; Mar_4:14; Mar_4:15; 2Co_9:10
--SEE Spiritual Sowing, SOWING
(18) Absolutely Trustworthy
1Ki_8:56; Psa_93:5; Psa_111:7; Eze_12:25; Dan_9:12
Mat_5:18; Luk_21:33; Rom_4:16
--SEE Faithfulness, Divine, FAITHFULNESS
Fulfilment, PROPHECY
& PROPHECY
(19) Profitable for Instruction
Deu_4:10; Deu_11:19; 2Ch_17:9; Neh_8:13; Isa_2:3; Act_18:28
--SEE Instruction (2), INSTRUCTION
Law Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(20) Ignorance of, Perilous
Mat_12:3; Mat_19:4; Mat_22:29; Joh_20:9; Act_13:27; 2Co_3:15
--SEE Spiritual Ignorance, IGNORANCE
(21) It Contains the Message to be Delivered
Jer_1:7; Jer_1:17; Jer_11:2; Eze_2:7; Eze_3:17; Act_5:20; Tit_2:15
--SEE Preaching (2), LEADERS
(22) Purity of
Psa_12:6; Psa_18:30; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:140; Pro_30:5; Isa_45:19
(B) THE LAW part of
(1) Ceremonial Abolished in Christ
Eph_2:15; Col_2:14; Heb_7:18; Heb_8:13; Heb_10:1; Heb_12:27
(2) Perfection of the Divine
Psa_19:7; Psa_119:142; Rom_7:12; Rom_7:14; 1Ti_1:8
(3) Keeping of Enjoined
Deu_17:19; Jos_23:6; 1Ch_22:12; Pro_28:7
--SEE Obedience (1), 2614
Book of the Law, GOD'S
Testimonies, TESTIMONIES
Words of Christ, WORDS OF CHRIST
(4) In the Heart
Psa_37:31; Psa_40:8; Jer_31:33; Jer_32:40; Rom_2:15; Rom_7:22; 2Co_3:3
Heb_8:10; Heb_10:16
--SEE 418
(5) Despised
2Ch_36:16; Psa_78:10; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:9; Jer_6:19; Jer_9:13
Hos_4:6; Amo_2:4; Mar_7:9
--SEE Instruction Despised, REJECTION of God and truth
Despisers, DESPISERS
(6) The Public Reading of
Deu_31:11; Jos_8:35; 2Ki_23:2; Neh_8:3; Neh_8:18; Neh_13:1; Jer_36:6
--SEE "Word" Read, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(7) Impartiality of
Exo_12:49; Lev_24:22; Num_9:14; Num_15:16
--SEE Strangers (3), STRANGERS
(C) STATUTES contained in
(1) General References to
Exo_15:26; Lev_26:46; Deu_4:5; Deu_16:12; 1Ki_3:14; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:12; Psa_119:54
--SEE Commandments, BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
(2) Perpetual, given to Israel
Lev_23:14; Lev_23:31; Lev_24:3; Lev_24:9; Num_18:11; Num_19:21
(D) COMMANDMENTS contained in
(1) General References to
Deu_6:6; Deu_11:8; Psa_19:8; Psa_119:6; Mat_15:3; Mat_22:38; 1Jo_5:3
(2) To be Kept
Exo_20:6; Deu_4:40; Deu_6:17; Deu_10:13; Deu_26:18; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3
1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; Psa_78:7
Eze_44:24; Mat_19:17; 1Jo_5:3; Rev_14:12
--SEE Obedience (1), OBEDIENCE
Decalogue, DECALOGUE, THE
Tables of Stone, 3543
Words Kept, WORDS OF CHRIST
1Co_1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Co_2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

In one of my posts I asked a question....is this "love all, offend none" biblical?

I asked another question.
Does water baptism "put us" into Christ Jesus?

No response so far.

I think you would agree with me that not everyone on a CF Forum is a Christian, a genuine blood bought, sealed with the Holy Spirit Christian, yes?
Warning Against False Teachers
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Christ Jesus Came to Save Sinners
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

...and not everyone that quotes scriptures is a Christian, yes?
Even the demons believe, and they tremble...[and can quote scriptures]

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Here is another question to you, if I believe in the Triune Godhead, and you don't, is this going to bring a division between us, affecting our salvation?

I don't believe in OSAS because of our "Reformers and what they taught" but what I have studied myself, the Perfect, Present, Middle, Aorist.

Also there are two types of questions
Genuine questions, to be informed, and there is nothing wrong with "commentaries"
And ekpeiradzo questions, and there are plenty of those.

https://leadingwithquestions.com/leadership/you-can-download-for-free-today-339-questions-jesus-asked/

The above is free, gratis, for Nada, and Jesus offended many when He walked this earth and still people are "offended" in the Messiah and His messengers.

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on...why?

Where is the "true ekklesia and soma of Yeshua HaMashiach?"

In a sense I do agree with you, the truth lays buried under opinions and preconceived ideologies is the norm for today.

Olam, everlasting is not everlasting, to most, redefining scriptures everywhere, quoting scriptures out of context, twisting, perverting the infallible aleithia.

This was said and typed in love, brother.

Shalom
Johann

This has not being answered...?
Too long?

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Just pointing out the truth, and hits a raw nerve, hence the reaction from people @Brother Paul

Greetings

You are pointing out the Truth, so am I brother, but I am also considering how what is preached can be so easily misunderstood and the consequences of one’s actions.

If there be a raw nerve my friend it is not mine.

As for the scriptures included in the post I reply to. Amen

I prefer when needed to include short post so the message is clearer and not diluted.

Humble yourself and you will be made great, in God’s eyes.

Shalom

Brother Paul

 

[Johann]

Greetings

You are pointing out the Truth, so am I brother, but I am also considering how what is preached can be so easily misunderstood and the consequences of one’s actions.

If there be a raw nerve my friend it is not mine.

As for the scriptures included in the post I reply to. Amen

I prefer when needed to include short post so the message is clearer and not diluted.

Humble yourself and you will be made great, in God’s eyes.

Shalom

Brother Paul

I think all of us must humble ourselves daily, and we do seem to have a problem.

Your gospel is Yochanan 15 only.

I have asked you several times a number of questions, no response.

I am very familiar with circular reasoning and if my response is a wee bit too lengthy, why can't you read that?
We ought to redeem the precious time we have.

I am amazed some can sit for hours on end in front of a TV, play games on a computer, but when it comes to what really matters, the scriptures, suddenly it becomes problematic.

Not being facetious with you, since scriptures, or lengthy posts can never be "diluted" as it is the d'var of YHVH.

Just a thought

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Let's agree to disagree, and preach Christ Jesus.
BIBLE, THE; THE WORD OF GOD
Called, The Scriptures, The Law, &c.

The scriptures are The Truth, the Truth is in The Word, let us be clear brother, we both agree in the accuracy and importance of The Word, that is not the issue here; the issue is accepting what we read as Gospel, as Truth and not looking for ways for it to fit our thinking.

John 15 is very clear, graphically clear. It does not say, once saved always saved, it refers to the opposite, that we can be cut out. We are to take note, this is a clear warning?

This message is not referring to those who are saved who continue to abide and bear fruit, no no, they have bo reason to be concerned, it clearly refers to those who are not bearing fruit for the vine anymore, those who are withering, those who are falling away, their hearts are growing cold.

The goodness for the vine comes from the lump, the root, God himself, from there the root feeds the vine, they are one, totally connected.

Jesus confirms in this beautiful parable that he is the vine, he tells us we are grafted into the vine as branches, that being when we are born again and the Spirit of God abides in us.

The sap from the root, the Holy Spirit, runs through the vine, through Jesus, to the branches, the born again believers.

This goodness is given by God’s Grace, for us to go forth in Jesus Name, doing God’s will, obeying Jesus’, teaching others what Jesus taught us, that souls may be saved, and to bring Glory to the Father through Jesus.

If we do not do that, the goodness fails to flow and the branch fails to bear fruit, it withers and is good for nothing except to be cut out and burned.

That clearly is the picture our Lord gives us here, we were grafted into the vine by God himself when we gave our life to the Lord and became born again. If we don’t bear fruit He who grafted us in, the Father, can cut us out, because the Father, the Husbandman, is the vine carer, the gardner who tends to the vine to make it more productive and keep it from decay and disease.

Without Jesus we can do nothing, if we are not in the vine we are out of it.

In His Love

Brother Paul

 

[Johann]

The scriptures are The Truth, the Truth is in The Word, let us be clear brother, we both agree in the accuracy and importance of The Word, that is not the issue here; the issue is accepting what we read as Gospel, as Truth and not looking for ways for it to fit our thinking.

John 15 is very clear, graphically clear. It does not say, once saved always saved, it refers to the opposite, that we can be cut out. We are to take note, this is a clear warning?

This message is not referring to those who are saved who continue to abide and bear fruit, no no, they have bo reason to be concerned, it clearly refers to those who are not bearing fruit for the vine anymore, those who are withering, those who are falling away, their hearts are growing cold.

The goodness for the vine comes from the lump, the root, God himself, from there the root feeds the vine, they are one, totally connected.

Jesus confirms in this beautiful parable that he is the vine, he tells us we are grafted into the vine as branches, that being when we are born again and the Spirit of God abides in us.

The sap from the root, the Holy Spirit, runs through the vine, through Jesus, to the branches, the born again believers.

This goodness is given by God’s Grace, for us to go forth in Jesus Name, doing God’s will, obeying Jesus’, teaching others what Jesus taught us, that souls may be saved, and to bring Glory to the Father through Jesus.

If we do not do that, the goodness fails to flow and the branch fails to bear fruit, it withers and is good for nothing except to be cut out and burned.

That clearly is the picture our Lord gives us here, we were grafted into the vine by God himself when we gave our life to the Lord and became born again. If we don’t bear fruit He who grafted us in, the Father, can cut us out, because the Father, the Husbandman, is the vine carer, the gardner who tends to the vine to make it more productive and keep it from decay and disease.

Without Jesus we can do nothing, if we are not in the vine we are out of it.

In His Love

Brother Paul

Nothing wrong with this

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Nothing wrong with this

Shalom
Johann

Thank you for confirming, this is the point I have raised from the start.

Shalom

Brother Paul

 

[Johann]

Thank you for confirming, this is the point I have raised from the start.

Shalom

Brother Paul

Took us the long route, but glad we can come to a agreement.

Shalom
Johann

 

[Brother-Paul]

Trust in the Lord with all OUR heart,
And lean not on OUR own understanding;
In all OUR ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct OUR paths.

No need to quote verses brother

In His love

Brother Paul

 

[Johann]

Trust in the Lord with all OUR heart,
And lean not on OUR own understanding;
In all OUR ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct OUR paths.

No need to quote verses brother

In His love

Brother Paul

Common phenomena, most rely too much on their intellectual prowess's to the exclusion of quoting scriptures, also the other way around, I'll stay on the derech of quoting scriptures, for it is the simplicity of the gospel that confounds the wise. To you is allocated 12 hours, same to me, what we do with the time is our prerogative.

But we shall give an account of what we did with the time given us.
I don't particularly enjoy this "fencing/parrying" between you and I, but then this is virtual communication.

Nevertheless....

2Ti 2:19 Al kol panim (nevertheless), the solid yesod of Hashem stands firm and zicher (certain), having this seal: V'YODA' Hashem ES ASHER LO ("Hashem KNOWS THE ONES WHO ARE HIS" BAMIDBAR 16:5); and let everyone who names the name of Hashem depart from avel (iniquity, gross injustice).
OJB

ο μεντοι στερεος θεμελιος του θεου εστηκεν εχων την σφραγιδα ταυτην εγνω κυριος τους οντας αυτου και αποστητω απο αδικιας πας ο ονομαζων το ονομα χριστου

As Paul thinks of Hymenaeus and Philetus and their false teaching, he realizes afresh that dark days are coming upon the church. Unbelievers have been accepted into the local church. Spiritual life is at such a low ebb that it is often hard to tell true Christians from mere professors. Christendom is a mixed multitude, and the resulting confusion is devastating.
In the midst of such a condition, Paul finds comfort in the assurance that the solid foundation of God stands. This means that whatever has been established by God Himself will endure in spite of all the declension in the professing church.
Various explanations have been given as to what is meant by the solid foundation of God. Some suggest that it is the true church. Others say it refers to the promise of God, to the Christian faith, or to the doctrine of election. But is it not clear that the foundation of God refers to anything that the Lord does? If He sends out His word, nothing can hinder it. Hamilton Smith says: “No failure of man can set aside the foundation that God has laid, or prevent God from completing what He has commenced. ... Those who are the Lord's, though hidden in the mass, cannot be ultimately lost.”
The foundation of God has a twofold seal. There is a divine side to it and a human side as well. From the divine side, the Lord knows those who are His. He knows them, not only in the sense of recognition, but of approval and appreciation. Lenski says He knows them “with appropriating and effective love.” The human side of the seal is that everyone who names the name of Christ should depart from iniquity. In other words, those professing to be Christians can prove the reality of their profession by lives of holiness and godliness. The true Christian should have no dealings with unrighteousness.

Another verse, three Imperatives...deny the ego eimi, take up your cross, and keep on following Me.

You have a good day

Shalom
Johann

 

[vhusley]

What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification?


Sanctification is God’s will for us (1 Thessalonians 4:3). The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him holy.



Jesus had a lot to say about sanctification in John 17. In verse 16 the Lord says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it,” and this is before His request: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” (verse 17). In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification.

While we are positionally holy (“set free from every sin” by the blood of Christ, Acts 13:39), we know that we still sin (1 John 1:10). That’s why the Bible also refers to sanctification as a practical experience of our separation unto God. “Progressive” or “experiential” sanctification, as it is sometimes called, is the effect of obedience to the Word of God in one’s life. It is the same as growing in the Lord (2 Peter 3:18) or spiritual maturity. God started the work of making us like Christ, and He is continuing it (Philippians 1:6). This type of sanctification is to be pursued by the believer earnestly (1 Peter 1:15; Hebrews 12:14) and is effected by the application of the Word (John 17:17). Progressive sanctification has in view the setting apart of believers for the purpose for which they are sent into the world: “As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified” (John 17:18–19). That Jesus set Himself apart for God’s purpose is both the basis and the condition of our being set apart (see John 10:36). We are sanctified and sent because Jesus was. Our Lord’s sanctification is the pattern of and power for our own. The sending and the sanctifying are inseparable. On this account we are called “saints” (hagioi in the Greek), or “sanctified ones.” Prior to salvation, our behavior bore witness to our standing in the world in separation from God, but now our behavior should bear witness to our standing before God in separation from the world. Little by little, every day, “those who are being sanctified” (Hebrews 10:14, ESV) are becoming more like Christ.

There is a third sense in which the word sanctification is used in Scripture—a “complete” or “ultimate” sanctification. This is the same as glorification. Paul prays in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (ESV). Paul speaks of Christ as “the hope of glory” (Colossians 1:27) and links the glorious appearing of Christ to our personal glorification: “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory” (Colossians 3:4). This glorified state will be our ultimate separation from sin, a total sanctification in every regard. “We know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).

To summarize, “sanctification” is a translation of the Greek word hagiasmos, meaning “holiness” or “a separation.” In the past, God granted us justification, a once-for-all, positional holiness in Christ. Now, God guides us to maturity, a practical, progressive holiness. In the future, God will give us glorification, a permanent, ultimate holiness. These three phases of sanctification separate the believer from the penalty of sin (justification), the power of sin (maturity), and the presence of sin (glorification).

That is why I am saying, sanctification is first a "STATE"...then ongoing/progressive.

The Great Apostle enjoins upon the Corinthians a cleansing from all defilement and a perfecting of holiness. He makes it clear that the cleansing is a crisis event in the lives of believers, while the perfecting of holiness is a continuing process that is founded upon that crisis. The English term cleanse is, in the Greek, the hortatory aorist subjunctive καθαρίσωμεv, katharis_men: “let us cleanse.” It is in the aorist tense and as such denotes a crisis event. The English term perfecting is in the original text the present tense participle _πιτελo_vτες, epitelountes. Since the tense is the present, the perfecting denotes an on-going process. And the strict sequence of the tenses, first the aorist and secondly the present, unmistakably defines the order: first the crisis experience of sanctification and then the continuing life-experience of progress in Christian grace.

I am not advocating the Wesleyan holiness movement.

Shalom
Johann

So what is your take on Hebrews 12:14 where we are told to "........pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord"?