Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[El Hombre viejo]

And what was the sin? Was it not the eating from the Tree of Knowledge?

God specifically said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. (Of course he knew they would though as he knew all things.)

He didn't want them to become as knowledgeable as the Gods and angels and only punished them for becoming knowledgeable.

Genesis 3:22 - "And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”





Well, granted these are assumptions, but its a good question. God clearly said he did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge lest they become knowledgeable as the Gods. If God didn't want Adam and Eve to become knowledgeable of good and evil, why would he want us to? Its not really made clear as there are verses that support wisdom and knowledge...and some that say its bad.

For example...


Proverbs 4:7 - "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

ECC 1:18 - "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

Proverbs 3:13 - "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding."

1CO 1:19: - "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Of course these should be read in context, but is not all knowledge of something either good or evil? There is no middle ground.




I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...can you clarify?

What was the sin? The sin was disobedience. Adam dishonored GOD.


Actually GOD did want us to know everything. HE wanted to teach us and HE would have if Adam had not disobeyed. Adam bowed his knee to the devil and the natural result was the curse, which is the devils version of Blessing. Put it this way. GOD gave Adam all the trees and plants in the gardern and reserved only one for HIMSELF. It was to be HIS. GOD didn't tell Adam that he could not touch it, for he was to tend it with the others. Adam was to tend it and even harvest the fruit and present it to GOD as HIS.
But he robbed GOD. He dishonored GOD. Makes me wonder how we would have done.


No. Knowledge is good. But from the wrong source, knowledge can be perverted. For example. If I told you something and made it 98% true, and only 2% fabrications, did I give you a true account. Or a lie?
Knowledge you get from disobedience ALWAYS is tainted.

I think you're asking what I meant about doctrine vs WORD?

Many times a man, (preacher) will forget to let the HOLY SPIRIT teach him and get things wrong. He will then teach 98% truth and 2% fabrication. It looks good, sounds good, and even feels good but its wrong. He's not an evil man but his teaching gets picked up by eager souls and retaught. Soon its a doctrine.

A doctrine is simply a set of teachings

doc·trine

   [dok-trin] Show IPA
noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.

2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.

3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

These are not nescessarily WORD, and if they are not SPIRIT taught they may be wrong. But many Christians hang on to doctrine because it their church that they go to.

 

[gdemoss]

Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'.

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

True, what most Christians follow is actually 'Paulism' and not the actual words of Jesus.

And please explain to me how God can have a perfect plan, that he already set in motion before the Earth was even created, knows all things including our last days and how they will end....

....and how we can 'change' his perfect plan by petitioning God?

Are you saying you have dominion over God, and have your own desires to change his PERFECT plan?

I beg to differ.

Greetings. I have a couple of questions for you. Do you follow the teachings of a specific bible? How many books are in it? Is it divinely inspired or words of man?

Your rejection of Paul tells me that the New Testament that I have and follow is worthless to you except maybe aside from the gospels?

In that sense it is pointless for us to discuss much of anything as we don't follow the same Jesus.

You brought up Adam and Eve in another post and I know that you have rejected everything that I have said up to this point but I would like to offer the idea that what happened in the Garden wasn't receiving the actual knowledge of what is good and what is evil but the ability to decide for themselves what they perceive to be 'good or evil'. I base this theory off of the fact that before they ate from the tree they were naked and not ashamed. They were naked and everything was said to be very good. After they ate, everything changed. They saw their nakedness and decided that it was a bad thing. Why would it be very good by Gods standard but then a bad thing when they realized it?

I hope that helps give you food for thought. I don't think we will be able to come to any other theological conclusions together though as your positions on Paul's teachings eliminate the possibility.

May the Lord bless and keep you,

Gary

 

[Donnie Ducati]

You jump all over the place and nothing you say really comes off very clear. Your original introdution thread (is there a pastor...) got closed because it got so far off topic and confusing....like all your posts tend to do to every thread.

You make my head spin trying to follow. :sick2:

You see, your doing it again Morningstar. The thread topic has been lost now.

 

[MorningStar]

Greetings. I have a couple of questions for you. Do you follow the teachings of a specific bible? How many books are in it? Is it divinely inspired or words of man?

Well, I have several bibles of different translations, but if there is ever any question concerning a translation, I go to the original Hebrew.

(Although I must add that finding a Hebrew version that came from the original Hebrew is tough, as most Hebrew versions were re-translated from English (of the KJV or similar) back to Hebrew for clarity. Unfortunately it only makes things worse as they are not correct according to the original Hebrew version).

Your rejection of Paul tells me that the New Testament that I have and follow is worthless to you except maybe aside from the gospels?

No, quite the contrary. I just place more emphasis on what Jesus said than what Paul said because Paul essentially gave himself authority.

Perhaps I've just met too many charlatan evangelists that claimed they knew the mind of God yet never met Jesus. If you look at how different the teachings of Paul are in comparison to Jesus, it can be quite dramatic.

You brought up Adam and Eve in another post and I know that you have rejected everything that I have said up to this point but I would like to offer the idea that what happened in the Garden wasn't receiving the actual knowledge of what is good and what is evil but the ability to decide for themselves what they perceive to be 'good or evil'. I base this theory off of the fact that before they ate from the tree they were naked and not ashamed. They were naked and everything was said to be very good. After they ate, everything changed. They saw their nakedness and decided that it was a bad thing. Why would it be very good by Gods standard but then a bad thing when they realized it?

I hope that helps give you food for thought. I don't think we will be able to come to any other theological conclusions together though as your positions on Paul's teachings eliminate the possibility.

Well, ultimately it doesn't matter if we agree or not on these things as each person has their own personal relationship with Jesus.

But, I should first say that I think its possible the Garden of Eden story was largely metaphorical because if you take it literally, then it was actually the serpent that told the truth, and it would make God out to be the liar....and we both know God can't lie.

The serpent said they would not die if they ate the fruit.
God said they would die if they ate it.

They ate, and they didn't die....so who seems to be telling them correctly? The serpent.

But, of course many people say that was a 'spiritual death' and not a physical death...although that point is never made in the story. Yet, God continued to give them blessings, so it does not make sense they went to hell for their disobedience either.

Also, it never states that Eve died...or if either Adam OR Eve went to Hell or Heaven.

 

[MorningStar]

You see, your doing it again Morningstar. The thread topic has been lost now.

What are you talking about? I wasn't the only one that talked about different things besides the original topic LOL. Yourself included...so you're blaming ME for hijacking my own thread? LOL

Once it became clear that I had already lost the bet that my cousin made to be, that the topic was basically answered, and simply progressed. Unfortunately people started attacking me, and hence I defended my points....as I am still doing here. I never did anything that others did not also do...including yourself.

So, therefore, I must ask you, what is your actual point?

 

[gdemoss]

Well, I have several bibles of different translations, but if there is ever any question concerning a translation, I go to the original Hebrew.

(Although I must add that finding a Hebrew version that came from the original Hebrew is tough, as most Hebrew versions were re-translated from English (of the KJV or similar) back to Hebrew for clarity. Unfortunately it only makes things worse as they are not correct according to the original Hebrew version).

First I have heard of this. I haven't spent a lot of time in the Hebrew but in the Greek of the NT.

No, quite the contrary. I just place more emphasis on what Jesus said than what Paul said because Paul essentially gave himself authority.

Perhaps I've just met too many charlatan evangelists that claimed they knew the mind of God yet never met Jesus. If you look at how different the teachings of Paul are in comparison to Jesus, it can be quite dramatic.

I am not sure I understand their to be a difference between their teachings. Maybe you could elaborate on your understanding of this in a new thread?

Well, ultimately it doesn't matter if we agree or not on these things as each person has their own personal relationship with Jesus.

But, I should first say that I think its possible the Garden of Eden story was largely metaphorical because if you take it literally, then it was actually the serpent that told the truth, and it would make God out to be the liar....and we both know God can't lie.

The serpent said they would not die if they ate the fruit.
God said they would die if they ate it.

They ate, and they didn't die....so who seems to be telling them correctly? The serpent.

But, of course many people say that was a 'spiritual death' and not a physical death...although that point is never made in the story. Yet, God continued to give them blessings, so it does not make sense they went to hell for their disobedience either.

Also, it never states that Eve died...or if either Adam OR Eve went to Hell or Heaven.

I understand it literally. They ate and they died. It was just a real slow painful death, they were forced to toil for 900 years or so knowing death was imminent. Also consider that it says they had to eat of the dust of the ground while they were waiting for the corpse they were carrying to drop. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. That appointment was set the moment they sunk their teeth in. We die much quicker today but we all begin the process immediately. I don't believe they died spiritually as they still had a relationship with God that was restored by him when he came and judged them for their error.


Good day,

Gary

 

[Christ4Ever]

Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'.

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

True, what most Christians follow is actually 'Paulism' and not the actual words of Jesus.

And please explain to me how God can have a perfect plan, that he already set in motion before the Earth was even created, knows all things including our last days and how they will end....

....and how we can 'change' his perfect plan by petitioning God?

Are you saying you have dominion over God, and have your own desires to change his PERFECT plan?

I beg to differ.

I know you were replying to Gdemoss, but it seems in your last couple of sentences that you entertain the thought that petitioning God or praying to Him, holds little value? I hope I’m reading your post wrong!

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I know you were replying to Gdemoss, but it seems in your last couple of sentences that you entertain the thought that petitioning God or praying to Him, holds little value? I hope I’m reading your post wrong!

PLEASE You're scrapping like feral cats. Stop! :coocoo:

 

[MorningStar]

First I have heard of this. I haven't spent a lot of time in the Hebrew but in the Greek of the NT.

I am not sure I understand their to be a difference between their teachings. Maybe you could elaborate on your understanding of this in a new thread?

Yeah, that's not a bad idea if people will put in their 2 cents on it without attacking me lol.

I understand it literally. They ate and they died. It was just a real slow painful death, they were forced to toil for 900 years or so knowing death was imminent. Also consider that it says they had to eat of the dust of the ground while they were waiting for the corpse they were carrying to drop. It is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. That appointment was set the moment they sunk their teeth in. We die much quicker today but we all begin the process immediately. I don't believe they died spiritually as they still had a relationship with God that was restored by him when he came and judged them for their error.

Technically speaking, you would only have half support for that view as there is no mention of Eve's dying.

It is generally thought that they would have died immediately if it meant a physical death, as there as also no precedence for death before their time, (nor immortality).

So, technically speaking, there is not 'full' support for either view of it being a physical death OR a spiritual death. This is why I consider it metaphorical.

 

[gdemoss]

Yeah, that's not a bad idea if people will put in their 2 cents on it without attacking me lol.

No guaranteeing it.

 

[MorningStar]

PLEASE You're scrapping like feral cats. Stop! :coocoo:

LMAO! No one is scrapping at all.

A discussion is not a scrap lol.

As long as it doesn't get personal, then its a good discussion.

 

[MorningStar]

I know you were replying to Gdemoss, but it seems in your last couple of sentences that you entertain the thought that petitioning God or praying to Him, holds little value? I hope I’m reading your post wrong!

No, it just depends on the type of prayer and the perspective in which it is used.

Do you think God has a perfect plan...that he put in motion before the foundations of the Earth were laid?

If so, then how could we change his perfect plan....and more importantly, WHY would we want to change his perfect plan?

Prayer can be for worship, not just petitioning God for change. I feel that asking God to change his perfect plan for my Earthly desires goes against his will. Therefore, i don't bother unless it is worship.

 

[RJ]

I clearly said I do not get my views from Westboro Baptist Church.

There is no inconsistency if you would just pay attention.

Regarding Paul's dream or revelation, if it wasn't in the flesh, then what was it?

Are you going to give us some strange semantics about a 'revelation' not being a type of dream?

Ever hear of day dreams?

Ever hear of a dream being considered a revelation? These words are interchangable depending on context.

But the question still remains....would you drop everything and completely follow someone who told you they had a revelation of Jesus on a bus or on the street?

I just feel that its not proper for Paul (himself) to give himself such authority and add to the teachings of Jesus in which Jesus never fully stated he supported outright, specifically. Therefore, I follow the teachings of Jesus....not Paul. Paul is not the one who brings salvation. It's Jesus.

Good grief Man! Paul was struck blind by the very presence of Jesus and that comes from no dream. And if you follow or know the Bible, as you say, you would know that Jesus spoke through Paul's teachings and not a revelation of Paul's doing. The Bible and all who spoke it into existence, is the living word of the Almighty!!!

 

[MorningStar]

Good grief Man! Paul was struck blind by the very presence of Jesus and that comes from no dream. And if you follow or know the Bible, as you say, you would know that Jesus spoke through Paul's teachings and not a revelation of Paul's doing. The Bible and all who spoke it into existence, is the living word of the Almighty!!!

And so I assume you would just drop everything and follow if a man you never knew came up to you on the bus and said he had just seen Jesus, and then started giving you commandments?? That's EXACTLY what cults do to gain gullible followers.

Are you aware that these type claims are made all the time, and have yet to be proven? There is not a shred of evidence to even prove Paul was a real person at all.

I see that happen with crazy TV evangelists all the time, and they are almost ALWAYS proven to be charlatans or insanely hypocritical....Ted Haggard comes to mind as a perfect example.

Once again, if you look at the contrast between what Jesus actually taught, and what Paul "said"....its amazingly different, and even contradictory in some cases. In fact, almost every major creed that Christians follow actually came from Paul, and not Christ. The Pauline teachings have long been in question with some major scholars and have been considered to be contradictory, just as other books of the bible were left out for the same reason.

I also think the Noah/flood story was completely metaphorical. Is that really a big deal? lol

Those things just do not make logical sense to me and I also know that as long as I believe in Christ, then all is well.

 

[David777]

In the doldrums, drifting from the thread.

Just thought I would throw in the original question on which this thread is based.

Hi All.

This questions comes up a lot and i'm still not sure of the answer. But can we lose our salvation?.
I've read scripures saying that all we need to do is confess with our mouths that Jesus is our saviour etc
and we will then have eternal life but then i read about God punishing others like King david for his sins.
I have had a few struggles with commiting the same sin over and over and i really do repent and do the 180
but i then fall back into sin again. I love Jesus, and i do hate disappointing God and myself.
But it always raises the question can you lose your salvation??...
Thanks in advance.. GOD BLESS.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
I know you were replying to Gdemoss, but it seems in your last couple of sentences that you entertain the thought that petitioning God or praying to Him, holds little value? I hope I’m reading your post wrong!
No, it just depends on the type of prayer and the perspective in which it is used.

Do you think God has a perfect plan...that he put in motion before the foundations of the Earth were laid?

If so, then how could we change his perfect plan....and more importantly, WHY would we want to change his perfect plan?

Prayer can be for worship, not just petitioning God for change. I feel that asking God to change his perfect plan for my Earthly desires goes against his will. Therefore, i don't bother unless it is worship.

I have to just assume you are talking about something else then petitioning or praying to God in your last couple of sentences above. Since I’m not sure of your position or what you're trying to say, and you readily accept Jesus’ word over any other I present to you my case for praying and petitioning as done and stated by Jesus. Did not Christ himself in pray asked that what He was about to go through be taken from Him? (Matthew 26:39) Even before then did he not tell the disciples if they believed they would receive whatever they asked for in prayer? (Matthew 21:22)

Now if you’re saying that God’s perfect plan does not take into account our prayers, petitions to Him, then aren’t you saying that God is not perfect or that His plan for all people happens exactly as He wills, whether we pray or not? If so why did Jesus pray as He did, and tell His disciples they could as well, as I mentioned before?

Here in lies the problem. Unless you know God's perfect will in all things, you won't know not to ask. I do not know His will in all things, so I pray and petition Him, on behalf of others, and even at times for myself, but always asking that it's His will to be done, because it's His will and not my own that is perfect.
YBIC
C4E

 

[Christ4Ever]

Are you aware that these type claims are made all the time, and have yet to be proven? There is not a shred of evidence to even prove Paul was a real person at all.

Just finished a reply to you and I read this one you made to RJ.

I’m pretty sure you don’t believe that since you readily quote 1 Corinthians to someone else. 1 & 2 Corinthians as I hope you realize were written by Paul and inspired by God? Or is your practice to quote nonexistent people?

The way it sounds you only give credence to the Gospels, and reserve the right to reject everything else. Is that right?

Just asking brother.

 

[MorningStar]

Did not Christ himself in pray asked that what He was about to go through be taken from Him? (Matthew 26:39) Even before then did he not tell the disciples if they believed they would receive whatever they asked for in prayer? (Matthew 21:22)

Yes, I am aware of Matthew 21:22, and yet I am also aware that, obviously, Christians do not always get what they ask for in prayer...so, what was your point again?

Also quite obvious, is that according to the bible Jesus WAS perfect as God's son. Therefore, he would not have asked anything outside of his own perfect plan in his prayers. So, I don't see the issue here.

Now if you’re saying that God’s perfect plan does not take into account our prayers, petitions to Him, then aren’t you saying that God is not perfect or that His plan for all people happens exactly as He wills, whether we pray or not? If so why did Jesus pray as He did, and tell His disciples they could as well, as I mentioned before?

I never said his perfect plan didn't include people's prayers.

On that same token, a PERFECT plan from an all knowing God would already know what prayers are asking for change to his perfect plan, as well as the ones who didn't.

Therefore, some prayers are in line with his perfect plan....and answered positively.

...and prayers that are not in line with his perfect plan, are not granted.

Do you disagree that God would already know all of our movements, words, calamities, and trials, etc. long before we were born?

Do you think that anything happens outside of God's will, or that he is unaware of?

If he already knew, then it was already set in motion. And therefore, already complete.

Why would God change his PERFECT plan because we wanted something against his will?

Here in lies the problem. Unless you know God's perfect will in all things, you won't know not to ask. I do not know His will in all things, so I pray and petition Him, on behalf of others, and even at times for myself, but always asking that it's His will to be done, because it's His will and not my own that is perfect.
YBIC
C4E

Yes, you are correct. Unless we know his will then making statements that could possibly go against his will are pointless. Are you claiming to know God's mind? I'm certainly not claiming such. I simply know its a perfect plan, he knows all (including the end), and therefore it is already completed and perfected.

So, per your logic, are you claiming that we MUST ask things of him for his will to be done?

I simply say go with the flow of his will, whatever that may be, and don't try to change it because I already know he has it perfected and completed....especially if he said he knows the end of things. (ie perfect).

 

[MorningStar]

Just finished a reply to you and I read this one you made to RJ.

I’m pretty sure you don’t believe that since you readily quote 1 Corinthians to someone else. 1 & 2 Corinthians as I hope you realize were written by Paul and inspired by God? Or is your practice to quote nonexistent people?

The way it sounds you only give credence to the Gospels, and reserve the right to reject everything else. Is that right?

Just asking brother.

And what about my quote makes you think that it is proof that Paul wrote it?

Or that I accept it as being Paul's writing?

That fact of the matter is, we don't know who wrote ANY part of the bible. All we have is "he said, she said, he said". Also, ALL scripture was written literally decades after their supposed time.

Therefore, all we have is circumstantial OPINION, and opinion is not concrete proof of anything.

 

[MorningStar]

I forgot to address your other questions so I had to come back to this...

You said "I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here on prayer"
You know that prayer is a direct communication with FATHER?

Communication is vital to any relationship. Try not talking to your wife/girlfriend whichever, for a month.

Talking to God like we talk to our significant other is not required for salvation. Only that we accept Jesus.

Besides, if I could get my significant other to stop talking for a month I honestly think things would get better LOL. jk

GODs plan? You know GODs plan? Wonderful! Most Christians do not, in spite of it being right there in the Bible in black and white.

I never said I know God's plan. I just know what is said about it....that he knows ALL things including the beginning AND the END. And that it is perfect. Therefore, I know that if I ask something outside his will (ie his plan) that it will not be granted.

I also know that even if I DON'T ask, and if it is in his perfect plan, it will happen anyway. Hence why we are to have FAITH.

Asking for things that are not in his plan is not only against his will, it is an action of non-faith.

Its GOD's plan for us to be Blessed. Right? In all things.

Correct. So what's your point?

Do you not think that his blessings were ALREADY part of his plan, and known to him before we even ask?

It's going against GOD's will to pray for change? Well kind of...He said to take dominion and subdue the Earth! And everything in it. So to ask HIM to do it is not HIS will. HIS will is for you to do it.

So, we have to do it for God for his will to be done? huh?

That's like saying we have to give God permission to do things here on Earth!

(Didn't we already discuss the futility of that? LOL :wink