Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[El Hombre viejo]

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here on prayer. If you read the bible in a fundamentalist/literal sense, then some forms of prayer are different than others. Meaning, if God has a perfect plan, and knows our beginning and end...knows ALL things...then how is our prayer going to really change anything, as all things are already in his 'will', or set in motion in his perfect plan?

In fact, it can be debated that prayer for some kind of 'change', (as opposed to prayer for worship), is actually an action of 'non-faith' as it would be trying to change God's perfect plan.

Even in times of sickness or death, we often pray for some kind of 'change' but we also forget that it was God's will anyway.

In fact, if God has a perfect plan, and knows our beginning and end...then it actually totally contradicts the concept of 'free will'.

So, I guess it comes down to just letting him be in the driver's seat.

You said "I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here on prayer"
You know that prayer is a direct communication with FATHER?

Communication is vital to any relationship. Try not talking to your wife/girlfriend whichever, for a month.

GODs plan? You know GODs plan? Wonderful! Most Christians do not, in spite of it being right there in the Bible in black and white.

Its GOD's plan for us to be Blessed. Right? In all things.

So then why would it be praying against GODs will to go against sickness? By JESUS stripes I was healed. Thats all there is to it. Sickness has no place in me.

It's going against GOD's will to pray for change? Well kind of...He said to take dominion and subdue the Earth! And everything in it. So to ask HIM to do it is not HIS will. HIS will is for you to do it. Decree change. That is what the one who reigns does. And we Christians are to reign in the Earth.

Genesis 1:27-28 (King James Version)


27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


enough for now

 

[gdemoss]

if God has a perfect plan, and knows our beginning and end...knows ALL things...then how is our prayer going to really change anything, as all things are already in his 'will', or set in motion in his perfect plan?

If your perspective is correct, explain why these requests.

Paul need to prayer so that he would be able to freely preach?

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

We each need each others prayer to be preserved blameless?

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us.

Paul needed prayer to get out of prison?

Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Paul thought he needed prayer in order to be able to spread the gospel?

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

God is God. It is true that he has a perfect plan. His plan is to purify his creation, ridding it of all evil. The details of each and every move do not have to be in perfect place for that to happen. If a person does not come to repentance of sin and turn toward God, putting their faith in Jesus Christ, it doesn't change or diminish the perfect plan of God. That person just goes to hell followed by the lake of fire.

If I were you, I would get busy being a follower of Paul as he was of Christ and start praying for others as well as requesting prayer from others that you might further the work of our Lord. Even Jesus, who knew of his Fathers perfect plan came to him in prayer asking if there be a different way and also to lift up all believers that would come after the disciples.

You have an active role in Gods perfect plan or your not part of it.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[MorningStar]

You said "I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here on prayer"
You know that prayer is a direct communication with FATHER?

Communication is vital to any relationship. Try not talking to your wife/girlfriend whichever, for a month.

GODs plan? You know GODs plan? Wonderful! Most Christians do not, in spite of it being right there in the Bible in black and white.

Its GOD's plan for us to be Blessed. Right? In all things.

So then why would it be praying against GODs will to go against sickness? By JESUS stripes I was healed. Thats all there is to it. Sickness has no place in me.

It's going against GOD's will to pray for change? Well kind of...He said to take dominion and subdue the Earth! And everything in it. So to ask HIM to do it is not HIS will. HIS will is for you to do it. Decree change. That is what the one who reigns does. And we Christians are to reign in the Earth.

So, are you really claiming that you never get sick as a Christian???

Really?

So, in other words, all the Christians in hospitals, dying of starvation, cancer, and all other forms of illness....they're not really Christians?

My mom is in the hospital for cancer as we speak. She has been a lifelong Christian and has never wavered from her faith. Are you now going to tell me she is sick because her faith isn't 'strong enough'??? :secret:

 

[MorningStar]

If your perspective is correct, explain why these requests.

Paul need to prayer so that he would be able to freely preach?

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

We each need each others prayer to be preserved blameless?

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us.

Paul needed prayer to get out of prison?

Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly. But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Paul thought he needed prayer in order to be able to spread the gospel?

Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

God is God. It is true that he has a perfect plan. His plan is to purify his creation, ridding it of all evil. The details of each and every move do not have to be in perfect place for that to happen. If a person does not come to repentance of sin and turn toward God, putting their faith in Jesus Christ, it doesn't change or diminish the perfect plan of God. That person just goes to hell followed by the lake of fire.

If I were you, I would get busy being a follower of Paul as he was of Christ and start praying for others as well as requesting prayer from others that you might further the work of our Lord. Even Jesus, who knew of his Fathers perfect plan came to him in prayer asking if there be a different way and also to lift up all believers that would come after the disciples.

You have an active role in Gods perfect plan or your not part of it.

In Christ,

Gary

Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'.

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

True, what most Christians follow is actually 'Paulism' and not the actual words of Jesus.

And please explain to me how God can have a perfect plan, that he already set in motion before the Earth was even created, knows all things including our last days and how they will end....

....and how we can 'change' his perfect plan by petitioning God?

Are you saying you have dominion over God, and have your own desires to change his PERFECT plan?

I beg to differ.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

True, what most Christians follow is actually 'Paulism' and not the actual words of Jesus.

^^


Your still here ?

Sorry to rain on your parade but Jesus actually never wrote anything in the Bible. You might want to through your Bible away now.

Your views amaze me. :helppc:

 

[El Hombre viejo]

So, are you really claiming that you never get sick as a Christian???

Really?

So, in other words, all the Christians in hospitals, dying of starvation, cancer, and all other forms of illness....they're not really Christians?

My mom is in the hospital for cancer as we speak. She has been a lifelong Christian and has never wavered from her faith. Are you now going to tell me she is sick because her faith isn't 'strong enough'??? :secret:

No. I get sick but I quickly send it packing. I don't have to stay that way. By JESUS stripes I was healed. My body must line up with my FATHER's WORD.

No Christians do get sick. Some even die from it. Why?
Its not because of a lack of faith. Its not because of sin in their lives. The WORD says. "My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 When we know what the WORD says we can stand on it. If we don't know, how can we? Then the enemy comes in with his lies and kills us.

I am sorry about your mother my brother. My mother died of cancer, my father too. I will pray for her and you.

Hugs.

 

[MorningStar]

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

True, what most Christians follow is actually 'Paulism' and not the actual words of Jesus.

^^


Your still here ?

Sorry to rain on your parade but Jesus actually never wrote anything in the Bible. You might want to through your Bible away now.

Your views amaze me. :helppc:

You can throw your bible away if you want to, but I think I'll keep mine...thanks anyway.

So, are you saying that you worship Paul over Jesus???

Are you now going to claim that verses like these commandments are God inspired?...

- homosexuals should be killed
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13)

So do you follow this commandment Donnie? Do you actively kill homosexuals as the bible commands?


- slavery is ok/condoned
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46)

Do you condone and think slavery is moral and righteous Donnie?


- that you can beat your slaves up to the point of death
"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21)

Beat your slaves lately Donnie?


- that all adulterers must be stoned to death
"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10)

Do you stone adulterers to death as the bible commands Donnie? Why or why not?


- brides who were not virgins should be stoned to death
"But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst". (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Or are you letting those evil homosexuals and adulterers and non-virgin brides slide.....and go against what the bible commands?

Per your perspective, you would also have to agree that...
- a woman's voice is not valid in church
- that she must not wear gold
- and that we can only wear white linen clothes, etc.

All of these verses are petty in contrast to what brings actual salvation. Belief in Jesus alone.

So is your claim that we're saved by grace alone, works, both works and grace....or because we wear white, no gold, and kill brides who are not virgins?

Let me guess....you go to Westboro Baptist Church? LOL

 

[jiggyfly]

Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'.

Sorry, but I follow the words of Jesus...not Paul.

I am assuming you mean that Paul never met Jesus in the flesh.

 

[MorningStar]

I am assuming you mean that Paul never met Jesus in the flesh.

Yes, plus the fact that his only knowledge he claimed came in a dream.

So, if someone came up to you on the street and said Jesus spoke to them in a dream...

....would you completely base your entire life and belief system on a 'dream' from someone you never knew?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Morningstar...what is Westboro ?

What and were from to you get your teaching from ? Do you have a mentor or particular Teacher / Minister / Ministry you claim to follow or attend ?

Just wondering because your views are very hard to follow. You jump all over the place and nothing you say really comes off very clear. Your original introdution thread (is there a pastor...) got closed because it got so far off topic and confusing....like all your posts tend to do to every thread.

You make my head spin trying to follow. :sick2:

 

[Donnie Ducati]

....would you completely base your entire life and belief system on a 'dream' from someone you never knew?

Its interesting you say that when you say in your profile that you have seen Jesus ?

C'mon dude. :ip:

 

[MorningStar]

Morningstar...what is Westboro ?

What and were from to you get your teaching from ? Do you have a mentor or particular Teacher / Minister / Ministry you claim to follow or attend ?

Just wondering because your views are very hard to follow. You jump all over the place and nothing you say really comes off very clear. Your original introdution thread (is there a pastor...) got closed because it got so far off topic and confusing....like all your posts tend to do to every thread.

You make my head spin trying to follow. :sick2:

Come on, you've heard of the Westboro Baptist Church right? They've been on the news so many times its crazy.

I most certainly do NOT get my views from WBC LOL.

And no the topic was closed because everyone started attacking me. Although, I think its a bit silly to not let people discuss difficult topics because I think we learn much faster if we can talk about them.

Just because we don't always agree doesn't mean we don't get along or that we don't like each other. I have no beef with anyone here...as I don't really know anyone here of course. I do like to discuss these things though. So, I don't agree with everything I read, and I'm sure you don't either...no big deal.

I do try to base all my views on scripture though, so please, feel free to challenge me, but in the spirit of spiritual debate and teaching please.

 

[MorningStar]

Its interesting you say that when you say in your profile that you have seen Jesus ?

C'mon dude. :ip:

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

I'm NOT asking you to follow me. The bible says you are to follow Christ....not Paul, Fred, Roger or Patsy.

My vision was for me, and me only...not you, or anyone else.

So, what's your point again?

 

[Donnie Ducati]

You didn't answer my question.

What and were from to you get your teaching from ? Do you have a mentor or particular Teacher / Minister / Ministry you claim to follow or attend ?

Nope, never heard of them, and I watch a lot of news.

Come on, you've heard of the Westboro Baptist Church right? They've been on the news so many times its crazy.

I most certainly do NOT get my views from WBC LOL.



I do try to base all my views on scripture though, so please, feel free to challenge me, but in the spirit of spiritual debate and teaching please.

Maybe "challenge" is the wrong word. We need not challenge each other to see who knows more ; however your replies come off as very prideful as if you dare someone to prove you wrong. You "challenge" everything said. Like I said, (as go's with your family)you have a very competative spirit/nature that must win the argument...as it tends to go that way.

 

[David777]

Confusion yet again.

Hello MorningStar, you did say

"Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'."

If you read Acts 9:3-7, it is not through a dream that Paul encountered Christ. Please read the following account.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.

4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. (NKJV)

This was not a dream as the other men also heard the voice. Paul was the messenger sent to the Gentiles, those without the law,
the uncircumcised. That's us MorningStar.

Westboro Baptists, who? Right, so you do not follow Paul but Jesus, yet you hold to some Baptist Church?

Anyone else notice the inconsistency?

 

[MorningStar]

No. I get sick but I quickly send it packing. I don't have to stay that way. By JESUS stripes I was healed. My body must line up with my FATHER's WORD.

No Christians do get sick. Some even die from it. Why?
Its not because of a lack of faith. Its not because of sin in their lives. The WORD says. "My people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6 When we know what the WORD says we can stand on it. If we don't know, how can we? Then the enemy comes in with his lies and kills us.

I am sorry about your mother my brother. My mother died of cancer, my father too. I will pray for her and you.

Hugs.

Thanks. Yes, many in my family have battled cancer and lost. They were all devout Christians. Despite the bible saying Christians can't get sick, I KNOW that Christians can get sick...I see it every single day.

Therefore, I believe that even sickness can be part of God's will. I believe that if he takes a family member, it was his choosing. Therefore, if I pray, or not, its still going to happen according to his plan. Who am I to try to change his plan? He is perfect, not me.

You do bring up an interesting point however. The bible states in Hosea 4:6 as you pointed out that people are destroyed because of their lack of knowledge. Yet Genesis clearly states that knowledge of both good and evil was what started this whole mess of 'original sin'.

It seems strange that it promotes knowledge in one part (Hosea) and other verses, yet states it is essentially the root of all evil in another part (Genesis) and other verses.

It is quite clear the direct rejection of the Tree of Knowledge of all things good and evil. It seems odd to me because the entire bible is a source of understanding about the ways of good and evil...and hence the knowledge of good and evil.

What is your opinion on this?

 

[MorningStar]

Hello MorningStar, you did say

"Firstly, Paul never even met Christ. He essentially came about his 'perspective' because of a 'dream'."

If you read Acts 9:3-7, it is not through a dream that Paul encountered Christ. Please read the following account.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.

4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. (NKJV)

This was not a dream as the other men also heard the voice. Paul was the messenger sent to the Gentiles, those without the law,
the uncircumcised. That's us MorningStar.

Westboro Baptists, who? Right, so you do not follow Paul but Jesus, yet you hold to some Baptist Church?

Anyone else notice the inconsistency?

I clearly said I do not get my views from Westboro Baptist Church.

There is no inconsistency if you would just pay attention.

Regarding Paul's dream or revelation, if it wasn't in the flesh, then what was it?

Are you going to give us some strange semantics about a 'revelation' not being a type of dream?

Ever hear of day dreams?

Ever hear of a dream being considered a revelation? These words are interchangable depending on context.

But the question still remains....would you drop everything and completely follow someone who told you they had a revelation of Jesus on a bus or on the street?

I just feel that its not proper for Paul (himself) to give himself such authority and add to the teachings of Jesus in which Jesus never fully stated he supported outright, specifically. Therefore, I follow the teachings of Jesus....not Paul. Paul is not the one who brings salvation. It's Jesus.

 

[MorningStar]

You didn't answer my question.



Nope, never heard of them, and I watch a lot of news.



Maybe "challenge" is the wrong word. We need not challenge each other to see who knows more ; however your replies come off as very prideful as if you dare someone to prove you wrong. You "challenge" everything said. Like I said, (as go's with your family)you have a very competative spirit/nature that must win the argument...as it tends to go that way.

Why do you view 'challenge' as 'conflict'?

Can a challenge not also be a way to learn?

Is discussion also conflict?

Debate is the BEST form of bringing people together when there is disagreement or confusion. Debate and discussion is not 'conflict'.....its a mode of bringing people together, for learning, or for entertainment, etc.

Its not about winning, (not that winning is a bad thing). I ask people to challenge me because it STRENGTHENS my faith through knowledge. I enjoy it. I'm sorry if you do not see the value in such discussions.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Thanks. Yes, many in my family have battled cancer and lost. They were all devout Christians. Despite the bible saying Christians can't get sick, I KNOW that Christians can get sick...I see it every single day.

Therefore, I believe that even sickness can be part of God's will. I believe that if he takes a family member, it was his choosing. Therefore, if I pray, or not, its still going to happen according to his plan. Who am I to try to change his plan? He is perfect, not me.

You do bring up an interesting point however. The bible states in Hosea 4:6 as you pointed out that people are destroyed because of their lack of knowledge. Yet Genesis clearly states that knowledge of both good and evil was what started this whole mess of 'original sin'.

It seems strange that it promotes knowledge in one part (Hosea) and other verses, yet states it is essentially the root of all evil in another part (Genesis) and other verses.

It is quite clear the direct rejection of the Tree of Knowledge of all things good and evil. It seems odd to me because the entire bible is a source of understanding about the ways of good and evil...and hence the knowledge of good and evil.

What is your opinion on this?

Actually I believe that the thing that started the mess was not the knowledge but the sin. I believe that GOD would have taught us everything as we grew. But sin ushered in a curse which is simply the opposite of Blessing which is the first thing GOD did with man. HE blessed us. GOD is not against knowledge. Knowledge is good but when GOD teaches us, it's not warped by the enemy.

We learn that it's GOD's will for us to be sick but there is no place in the Bible that says that. Only our own church doctrine. Doctrine oftent times is a cover for 'unbelief'. And many Christians take doctrine over GOD's WORD.

 

[MorningStar]

Actually I believe that the thing that started the mess was not the knowledge but the sin.

And what was the sin? Was it not the eating from the Tree of Knowledge?

God specifically said not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. (Of course he knew they would though as he knew all things.)

He didn't want them to become as knowledgeable as the Gods and angels and only punished them for becoming knowledgeable.

Genesis 3:22 - "And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

I believe that GOD would have taught us everything as we grew. But sin ushered in a curse which is simply the opposite of Blessing which is the first thing GOD did with man. HE blessed us. GOD is not against knowledge. Knowledge is good but when GOD teaches us, it's not warped by the enemy.

Well, granted these are assumptions, but its a good question. God clearly said he did not want Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge lest they become knowledgeable as the Gods. If God didn't want Adam and Eve to become knowledgeable of good and evil, why would he want us to? Its not really made clear as there are verses that support wisdom and knowledge...and some that say its bad.

For example...


Proverbs 4:7 - "Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

ECC 1:18 - "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

Proverbs 3:13 - "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding."

1CO 1:19: - "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

Of course these should be read in context, but is not all knowledge of something either good or evil? There is no middle ground.

We learn that it's GOD's will for us to be sick but there is no place in the Bible that says that. Only our own church doctrine. Doctrine oftent times is a cover for 'unbelief'. And many Christians take doctrine over GOD's WORD.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here...can you clarify?