Original sin - Undermines God's nature

[KingJ]

You still insist that dead people go to either heaven or hell instead of grave, don't you? If so we can only agree to disagree, there's nothing more I can say to change your mind.

You should feel ashamed for exploiting a hypothetical death of babies to push your own doctrine and cursing God for what Satan did. This world is a fallen and broken world, INCLUDING swaddle, NICU and the WOMB, hence "in sin my mother conceived me." If a baby dies, it doesn't matter whose fault it is, the result is the same - "wages of sin is death". God did NOT condemn the world, neither did he send Yeshua to, but through Yeshua, the world might be SAVED. He SAVES babies, not punishes them.

Jonathan, you and @StewardoftheMystery both accuse me of using babies to push my agenda....

The fate of babies is the A-Z of my agenda. They 'are' my agenda. This accusation is hilarious.

Now, granted, after some explaining from you I better understand your view. It's not too bad. Some babies ceast to exist and some go to heaven. At least none are tortured in fire. But this view does still not hold water with me. What of the parents of those babies that 'cease to exist' and do not get to see them whilst...others do?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jonathan, you and @StewardoftheMystery both accuse me of using babies to push my agenda....

The fate of babies is the A-Z of my agenda. They 'are' my agenda. This accusation is hilarious.

Now, granted, after some explaining from you I better understand your view. It's not too bad. Some babies ceast to exist and some go to heaven. At least none are tortured in fire. But this view does still not hold water with me. What of the parents of those babies that 'cease to exist' and do not get to see them whilst...others do?

I have also explained to you that nothing "ceases to exist", neither the body nor the spirit. "Mind" is a part of the body and sustained by the same bloodstream, when the body return to dust, so does the mind, that's just the cycle of life. "There's a season to be born and a season to die." Ecclesiastes 3:1–2. It's the SPIRIT that cannot decompose and will be judged by God. If you insist to disregard the first law of thermodynamics and keep calling decomposition “cease to exist", then there's nothing to talk about. I don't push an agenda that is neither biblical nor scientific like you do, I just quote and explain what the word of God says. You have no interest to discuss any Scripture, your agenda has become your stumbling block.

 

[complete]

@Jonathan_Gale
@KingJ

'For all have sinned,
and come short of the glory of God; '
(Rom 3:23)

' Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:'
(Rom 5:12)

'The soul that sinneth,
it shall die. ... '
(Eze 18:20)

Hello there,

Underlying these arguments is the failure to accept the immortality of the soul. That the soul does die. The knowledge of this makes heaven or hell as a destination after death unnecessary.

There is no life apart from resurrection.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

perhaps we can ask if one is ever born saved?

or... one is born who does not need the Life of Christ poured out for them?


Bless you all ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,

perhaps we can ask if one is ever born saved?

or... one is born who does not need the Life of Christ poured out for them?


Bless you all ....><>

God question. Babies are not born saved just as they are not born in sin. Sinning is a decision we make when we are 'of age', just as accepting Jesus is.

As such, babies go to heaven as animals do. They are an innocent being until they grow up and choose to sin. This is why I believe babies will come back in the millennium to be tested by the devil when they are adults Rev 20:3. There is literally no other purpose for the millennium except this in my honest opinion.

 

[KingJ]

@Jonathan_Gale
@KingJ

'For all have sinned,
and come short of the glory of God; '
(Rom 3:23)

' Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:'
(Rom 5:12)

'The soul that sinneth,
it shall die. ... '
(Eze 18:20)

Hello there,

Underlying these arguments is the failure to accept the immortality of the soul. That the soul does die. The knowledge of this makes heaven or hell as a destination after death unnecessary.

There is no life apart from resurrection.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Your view I can stomach. You believe that only those resurrected live on. I would assume this would not include babies as they have not accepted Jesus.

With your belief there is no such thing as babies in hell (@StewardoftheMystery 's belief) or babies split in half, body dead and 'some' of them judged as 'worthy' somehow, have their spirit amalgamated with God (@Jonathan_Gale 's belief).

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Your view I can stomach. You believe that only those resurrected live on. I would assume this would not include babies as they have not accepted Jesus.

With your belief there is no such thing as babies in hell (@StewardoftheMystery 's belief) or babies split in half, body dead and 'some' of them judged as 'worthy' somehow, have their spirit amalgamated with God (@Jonathan_Gale 's belief).

That's not my belief, but Yeshua's, plainly stated in John 3:6 - "That which is born of the flesh is of the flesh, that which is born of the spirit is of the spirit." This view is further elaborated in Paul's letters, such as Rom. 8:1-17. You reject the word of God, that's your problem.

 

[PloughBoy]

Romans:
American Standard Version
"But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

John 1 (ASV)
"But as many as received Him, To Them He gave THE RIGHT TO become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13Who Were Born, Not Of Blood, Nor Of The Will Of The Flesh, Nor Of The Will Of A Man, But Of God.


New American Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water AND THE SPIRIT, He Cannot Enter The Kingdom Of God."

Now what say, DOES the World say?
…"Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. “Far be it from You, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to You!” 23But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

Hebrews 5:14, KJV: But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14, NASB: But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to distinguish between good and evil.

Many Have not "THE ABILITY" to Except GOD's TRUTH at certain times.

New American Standard Bible
“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them at the present time. "YOU CANNOT" And many Cannot, not until They Have Been Clothe in GLORY. Not until They pull of The garments of Corruption and Be Clothe in The Clothes of "immortality". Then you will know the differents between "the Holy and The Unholy".


LORD, Talk to me JESUS, Help Me tell it Like it is! "HALLELUJAH" I give you The PRAISE!

I am PloughBoy, "A Child of The LIVING GOD",, "BORN of HIS SPIRIT" "1977" and washed in the of Blood Jesus and He gave Me The Right to become a Child Of The LIVING GOD, With A FULL SHARED INHERITANCE WITH ALL RIGHTS "INDICATIVE" of ALL "THE FATHER HAS"
I know this is a "MYSTERION" to all That does not Have The Ears to hear! For it is Written Down in Black and White in The BOOK and MY NAME is Written as An Heir a "Joint HEIR" to Inherit "ALL THAT THE FATHER HAS"! In the Halls of JUSTICE in a place called heaven!
And Our Coronation Day, draws near! And what A Celebration it will be!

It is written in The BOOK and not in small print Did you get "The Memo" and The Invitation? It is a BlackTie event.

Note:
But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man Who Was Not Dressed In Wedding Clothes. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘How Did You Get In Here Without Wedding Clothes?’ But the man was speechless.…

Now if you know Him, You ought to be SHOUTING!!!!!! and Jumping up and down and giving God the PRAISE!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Brother Paul]

There's nothign more to discuss, if you don't believe in original sin. It's not about God's nature, it's about OUR nature. Even though WE have sinned, God loved us and gave his only son for us. Babies are irrelevant to this discussion, that's just a distraction. When they die, same rule from Gen. 3:19 applies - "for dust you are, to dust you shall return".

Yes there was a first sin (the original sin) but we do not inherit the condemnation. OUR sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and the soul that sins (and we all will) IT shall die, In both the law and the Prophets it is clear that the children are not held responsible for the sins of their father nor the father for the sins of their children. Children are the gidt of God. If we want to enter the Kingdom we must come to Him like them.

 

[complete]

Your view I can stomach. You believe that only those resurrected live on. I would assume this would not include babies as they have not accepted Jesus.

With your belief there is no such thing as babies in hell (@StewardoftheMystery 's belief) or babies split in half, body dead and 'some' of them judged as 'worthy' somehow, have their spirit amalgamated with God (@Jonathan_Gale 's belief).

'For the grave cannot praise Thee,
death can not celebrate Thee:
they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
The living, the living, he shall praise Thee,
as I do this day:
the father to the children
shall make known Thy truth.'
(Isa 38:18-19)

Hello @KingJ,

Hell is a word meaning, 'to hide away': it is the place of the dead, 'or the grave'. Yes, the grave accommodates all the dead, both young and old. For they go back to the dust from whence they came, their 'spirit' or 'the breath of life' having returned to God Who gave it. Only the power of the resurrection can raise them up and quicken them into life again, and that will happen on the day of God's appointing.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[PloughBoy]

Hello @KingJ,

Hell is a word meaning, 'to hide away': it is the place of the dead, 'or the grave'. The dead have ceased to exist, they have no life in them: and only the power of the resurrection can raised them, and quicken them into life again.

Yes, the grave accommodates all the dead, both young and old. For they go back to the dust from whence they came.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Would you elaborate on this a little, Since you said this: "The dead have ceased to exist" I will not interfere, or combat your actions. but only observe.

( 1 Peter 3) NASB
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water" [if The dead does not exist how could he Preach to them in Prison?]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Lazarus in Abraham Bosom. and The rich man raised his eyes. (LUKE 16:23)

Note: the Body goes back to dirt from where it Came from
The soul goes back from where it came from. Some times in a translation in the OT the "word" Soul and Spirit has the same meanings depends on The translation and How expensive the Translated BIBLE costs. "A EXCELLENT" Translation Has More information In The Introduction Pages about what The Translation is composed of and whether it is a "Translation that Was Translated from another Translation or Translations. Other than "The ORIGINAL COPIED MANUSCRIPT it is about making money and "Supply and demands". And on the internet look and see who the publisher is and what print it is, IF you are Doing a real STUDY! If not it doesn't matter what translation you use. you can use anything,

It is enough in all Bibles translations to get anybody saved, God has made sure of that.

PloughBoy

 

[complete]

Would you elaborate on this a little, Since you said this: "The dead have ceased to exist" I will not interfere, or combat your actions. but only observe.

( 1 Peter 3) NASB
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water" [if The dead does not exist how could he Preach to them in Prison?]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Lazarus in Abraham Bosom. and The rich man raised his eyes. (LUKE 16:23)

Note: the Body goes back to dirt from where it Came from
The soul goes back from where it came from. Some times in a translation in the OT the "word" Soul and Spirit has the same meanings depends on The translation and How expensive the Translated BIBLE costs. "A EXCELLENT" Translation Has More information In The Introduction Pages about what The Translation is composed of and whether it is a "Translation that Was Translated from another Translation or Translations. Other than "The ORIGINAL COPIED MANUSCRIPT it is about making money and "Supply and demands". And on the internet look and see who the publisher is and what print it is, IF you are Doing a real STUDY! If not it doesn't matter what translation you use. you can use anything,

It is enough in all Bibles translations to get anybody saved, God has made sure of that.

PloughBoy

(#63 & #70)

Hello @PloughBoy,

Forgive me, you obviously started responding to my entry #70 while I was in the process of altering it. I changed it to:-

​

Hell is a word meaning, 'to hide away': it is the place of the dead, 'or the grave'. Yes, the grave accommodates all the dead, both young and old. For they go back to the dust from whence they came, their 'spirit' or 'the breath of life' having returned to God Who gave it. Only the power of the resurrection can raise them up and quicken them into life again, and that will happen on the day of God's appointing.​

​

​

​

* You quote from 1 Peter 3:19-20, Luke 16:23, and I think you refer indirectly to Genesis 3:19, too:-

'And unto Adam He said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree,
of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.'
(Gen 3:17-19)

* In regard to 1 Peter 3:19-20, I understand, 'the spirits in prison', to refer to the angels that sinned and, 'left their first estate' in the days of Noah. 'And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.' (Jude 1:6) .

* With the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I believe, the Lord Jesus Christ exposes the folly of Pharisaic doctrine ('beware the doctrine of the Pharisees') which was contrary to the word of God: and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is told to expose their hypocrisy. For the word of God tells us that ' ... ... there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.' (Ecc 9:10b). Yet, in this story, He has dead people talking, feeling the sensation of heat and pain, when they are brain dead and therefore have no possibility of feeling sensations, of hearing, or seeing, thinking or reasoning. Why? If not to expose the Pharisees' teaching, to whom He spoke.

* God is no respecter of persons, is He @PloughBoy? With respect, do not temper your response towards me: for I do not think you will be in agreement with me in regard to these things. So do not spare.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[PloughBoy]

(#63 & #70)

Hello @PloughBoy,

Forgive me, you obviously started responding to my entry #70 while I was in the process of altering it. I changed it to:-

​

​

​

* You quote from 1 Peter 3:19-20, Luke 16:23, and I think you refer indirectly to Genesis 3:19, too:-

'And unto Adam He said,
Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife,
and hast eaten of the tree,
of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:
cursed is the ground for thy sake;
in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.'
(Gen 3:17-19)

* In regard to 1 Peter 3:19-20, I understand, 'the spirits in prison', to refer to the angels that sinned and, 'left their first estate' in the days of Noah. 'And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.' (Jude 1:6) .

* With the story of the rich man and Lazarus, the Lord Jesus Christ exposes the folly of Pharisaic doctrine ('beware the doctrine of the Pharisees') which was contrary to the word of God, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, is told to expose their hypocrisy. For the word of God tells us that ' ... ... there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.' (Ecc 9:10b). Yet, in this story, He has dead people talking, feeling the sensation of heat and pain, when they are brain dead and therefore have no possibility of feeling sensations, of hearing, or seeing, thinking or reasoning. Why, if not to expose the Pharisees' teaching, to whom He spoke.

* God is no respecter of persons, is He @PloughBoy? So do not temper your response towards me: for I do not think you will be in agreement with me in regard to these things. So do not spare.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

ok, just kicking it. "ANGELS do Not have a "SAVIOR", The sole purpose of Jesus creating "Angels" They are to Minster to Those who are to be "HEIRS" oF "SALVATION" to protect those who will Inherit all That GOD THE FATHER HAS, A full shared INHERITANCE The whole purpose of GOD creating humans beings is to Transformed them with a Shared Inheritance into The very Image of The SON! The only purposed for creating Man, To make Jesus some Brothers just like Him. Adopted and do the same things That he can do! Because GOD loved His SON so much He is doing this for Him and not us. God does not need us neither do Jesus. They do not need company. But GOD the FATHER LOVES JESUS, so much he created humans, some will be damn and few chosen "BY ELECTION to BE HIS adopted Sons, Brothers! Just like him, and it takes all of this, [he created them male and females for breeding to make more}. he made them male and female for breeding only and he made sure they where going to breed ! A lot! That is why, men married young girls in The Days of Yester-year. Good made they to breed, "Jonathan Edwards" had 11 kids one of my grandmother had 17 siblings and The 200 acres farm we still have it and it can not be sold unless and of the heirs are in agreement. when you are born, your name is put on the paper work. When Edwards met Sarah she was 13, they got married when she was 17 and he 23. My mother got married at 17, my Paternal grandmother got married at 17, I forgot how old my Paternal Grandfather was but I do have their Marriage License and my Paternal GrandFAther Parents Marriage license in 1800's and my Great Great grandmother's picture attached to their wedding license. who is a "Blackfoot Indian" and her husband was and his sisters were "Missionaries" to the BlackFeet, Calvinist, Puritans they were I have pictures of them to in the tribes wearing white missionaries dresses out side the "Teepee".

THE Father is GREATER than The SON, No one has seen The WORK of The FATHER yet, But ALL of Heaven AND THE UNIVERSE, the stars the moon, The Sun and The whole Universe The GALAXIES and ALL of the SOLAR SYSTEM with get A look at "The MANIFESTATION of THE GLORY of GOD" and we are that "MANIFESTATION" 'THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD" and we will LIGHT UP ALL ETERNITY" There was no Light before Jesus "Created Light" and that light will be destroyed, it is a part of Creation. Be we, The SONS of GOD we Are THE GLORY OF GOD" "INDICATIVE"

If Moses face shined so brilliant that the people could not looked upon him. "How do you think You are going to be? With a brand new Body That JESUS has NEVER SEEN! Because he is Getting one TOO! A BODY from GOD the FATHER, and It is MADE BY GOD, and it is not made of Dirt, Mud, Plastic, Steel or Iron! Now go figure that out! "EYE HAVE NOT SEEN Nor EAR HEARD" JESUS have not seen it! in actuality Jesus have not seen this new Body that The Father has Prepared for us!

God The Father is not going to create It, He is going to "PREPARE" Not this is where The FINITE Mind STOPS!


King James Bible
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God [THE FATHER] hath prepared for them that love him.

The FATHER IS GREATER THAN THE SON, The SON do Not know The CAPACITY of The FATHER. But He knows since All things are Possible with him and THE FATHER IS GREATER THAT HE IS!

I hope you feel me. Because will Have went into ETERNITY. And Left The Finite Mind and Travel BEYOND The FARTHEST OF THE FARTHEST HORIZONS.

Don't You Know You Are Not A "Human' Any More, But A Brand New Creature Waiting For Your New Body, You Are Trap In Human Flesh And It Effects You. The Body Of A Human Creature You Awaits Your Heavenly Body. Something GOD the FATHER has PREPARED for US, Jesus did not creature this New that we wait for, GOD THE FATHER Has Prepared For Us!

1Therefore, since you have been raised with Christ, strive for the things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things Above, Not On Earthly Things.3For You Died, And Your Life IS NOW HIDDEN WITH Christ IN GOD.…"

You have a SPIRITUAL Mind Too, The world have not this, They have a Soul, You have A soul too, but also a "PARAKLETOS" living in Your Soul too! Walking hand in hand with you! They don't have this! And they do not even know what this mean! They think they are just like us, a religious person that knows the Bible and can pray and do good works. But we are a Completely Different Creature! We Are Not Human We Are Different.
But They will tell you and convince you we are the same! it is only a few of us but many of them! if ten is in the church, maybe 3 are real children of GOD, but the rest, they have been taught by sheep to act like sheep and talk like sheep, so if you do not have the GIFT, you can't tell. and you will start acting like a Goat, thinking this how sheep act to! They might not be A "Snake of A VIPER" or A "WOLF" but there are Many "GOATS" in The Flock! And the GOATS will have You acting Like A GOAT, because they out number you,

Like The Sunday school TEACHER told me, Well everybody doing it, even " Pastor LOVE JOY". I cannot believe that woman told me, it was alright because Pastor was doing it! out standing Parishioner in The Church, a leader! she was order than me, I am A young Pup, in My prime! and she smelling good. I am A Full Stallion! And she Blowing in my ear, words I have never heard.

And That Is Why We Are Not To Hang Around Them. They Affects Us, In Many Ways the religious people christianity affects us because there are all kinds.

We do not affect them ,they contaminates us, even their good works contaminate us. we have nothing in common, if they are in our churches they corrupt us by presence. Even one Contaminates no matter how good it seems.

How did I get way out here?

ok, I will stop.

PloughBoy

PS. I remember this Women who move next to my Parents, she told My Mother I want him!

My mother said, she said, Oh' LORD please do not mess with my son Ms, Judy. Please leave him along. my mother told me she beg her please do not mess with my son! She was older than me! I stayed clear!

I got to say this, Life is more exciting when you stay on The PATH, although many think it is boring.

That is why I like to talk to young men and women. Have them laughing, and at he same time thinking and when they leave when such events falls into their paths they think about what I have said, and they chuckle within them selves, maybe sometimes escape or slip, the thoughts comes to mind.

And most of the time if it is a women I got laughing, men think I am flirting but far from it. They do not understand I am talking Jesus by The wisdom of GOD, I have prayed many of Prayers teach me LORD how to be skillful in thy word. I given them The word of God and they do not know it. No more than a "translation" in Their own Language, that they can understand. "THE WISDOM of GOD" is JESUS! And show them traps, and beware of Your own desires. "Like me, I like big leg women, since a kid" so that is my weakness, Lord keep my feet out of Slippery places!

I will get back on track, some times I like to stray.

Ploughboy, Part 1 and if my "text editor is acting up try to fill in the lines of Grammar'
because I am getting tried of typing something then rereading it , and the words have changed. and I know I didn't type that. it confuse words. Because I'm checking over and over. It must be a "Demonic Conspiracy" to Sabotage my work. in High places!

You are doing alright

complete​

You brother in Christ, PloughBoy

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yes there was a first sin (the original sin) but we do not inherit the condemnation. OUR sin separates us from God (Isaiah 59:2) and the soul that sins (and we all will) IT shall die, In both the law and the Prophets it is clear that the children are not held responsible for the sins of their father nor the father for the sins of their children. Children are the gidt of God. If we want to enter the Kingdom we must come to Him like them.

You see, although we can agree that sin means DISOBEDIENCE to God, most Christians only see it as a moral issue, but since God is the Creator of the universe, from a creator's point of view, this "disobedience" also means malfunction and/or maladaptation, deviation from His perfect original design. This is why blindness from birth in John 9 and a lot of other sicknesses were treated as sins - or at least a sign of sins, even though diseases were not moral issues, it's still a common view today, the only difference between left and right is whether it's the sin of the society or personal responsibility, in essence, it's the same question the disciples asked in John 9:2 - "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents?" How did the Lord answer? "NEITHER!"

But wait a minute, later, the pharisees, the "experts" convicted this man of "completely born in sins," (John 9:34), his parents were also summoned to bear witness, then why did Yeshua answer "neither"? Because He didn't fall into this dichotomy, he didn't waste time on a theological debate, instead he opened blind eyes. At that moment, it doesn't matter whose sin caused the man's blindness, what's done is done, whether it was genetics from his parents or a birth defect, the result was the same. Yeshua was aware of that, and his purpose was to RESTORE the original design of the man, so "the works of God should be revealed in him," John 9:3.