OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

[B-A-C]

Heb 3:7; Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb 3:13; But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14; For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 3:15; while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Heb 3:16; For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17; And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18; And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19; So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1; Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Heb 4:2; For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4; For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:5; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
Heb 4:6; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Someone who has never believed at all, cannot "hold fast... until the end". They have nothing to hold on to.
Were the Jews in the wilderness never saved? No God saved them all from Pharaoh and Egypt, He saved them from the pursuing army.
He saved them from blistering heat, from clothes wearing out, from starvation, from thirst... He was with them the entire time. ...and yet many failed to enter because of disobedience.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Heb 6:7; For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Heb 6:8; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Someone who was never saved in the first place can never be a "partaker of the Holy Spirit". A partaker is someone who has consumed the Spirit, tasted it.
Also somebody can't do something "again" unless they've already done it once. You can't repent "again" unless you've already repented once.
You can't crucify Jesus "again" unless you've already crucified Him once. This passage isn't about people who were never saved, there is no way it can be.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Again, this passage isn't about someone who was never saved. It's about someone who "has escaped the defilements of the world" .. and unsaved non-believer could never do that without Jesus.
A person cannot be "entangled" in sin "again" if they never stopped sinning in the first place. You can't do something "again" unless you've already done it at least once before.
You can't "turn away" from obeying Jesus, unless you are already obeying Him. Someone who was never saved has never been washed by the blood of Jesus. But some who are washed,
choose to go back to the mud.

 

[B-A-C]

John 10:27; "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29; "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

My first question about this passage is... are you really a sheep? Are you following Jesus? Are you living like He lived and obeying His teachings? If not, you aren't a sheep.
No one can snatch them out of Jesus's hand. That's true, no one can take you away from Jesus if you want to stay with Him. But you are always free to walk away on your own.
Also, even though no one can take them from Jesus, Jesus Himself eventually throw some of them away.

Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Some people in the kingdom, will be taken out and thrown into the fire.

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 25:1; "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt 25:2; "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
Matt 25:3; "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
Matt 25:4; but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
Matt 25:5; "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Matt 25:6; "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
Matt 25:7; "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Matt 25:9; "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
Matt 25:13; "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

The "kingdom of heaven" is like...
What is the only difference between the wise virgins and the foolish virgins? There is only ONE difference. All ten of them started out with oil.
The difference is.. five of them ran out of oil. It wasn't that they never had any oil to begin with, they just let it run out.

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

We have 4 kinds of soil here. Only ONE of these was never saved. Those in verse 12, were never saved.
Those in verse 13, "they believe for a while" ... and then "fall away". It wasn't that they never believed, they just quit believing after a while.
Those in verse 14, believe even a little longer than those in verse 13. They believed long enough to start bearing fruit... but their fruit never made it to maturity. The Bible says we can't bear any fruit without Jesus,
so they must've had Jesus long enough to start bearing fruit. But yet their fruit never produces a harvest.
Then we have those in verse 15. Obviously they also are saved. The only difference between these and those in verses 13 and 14, is that they endured til the end.

 

[B-A-C]

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1Tim 4:3; men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

There's that phrase again.. "fall away". I can't fall off a cliff, unless I was already on top of the cliff at some point. I can't drive away from New York, unless I was already in New York at some point.
.. and I can't fall away from the faith, unless I already had the faith at some point. This passage isn't about someone who was never saved, and never had the faith. No they had it, and "fell away" from it.

 

[B-A-C]

Exod 32:31; Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves.
Exod 32:32; "But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Deut 29:20; "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Now why would the Bible have all these verses about people's name being erased from the Book of Life, unless it's possible? Why does God say He is going to blot out some names?

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Dan 12:1; "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

 

[james g]

Heb 3:7; Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Heb 3:13; But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14; For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 3:15; while it is said, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
Heb 3:16; For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
Heb 3:17; And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18; And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19; So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1; Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Heb 4:2; For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4; For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";
Heb 4:5; and again in this passage, "THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST."
Heb 4:6; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Someone who has never believed at all, cannot "hold fast... until the end". They have nothing to hold on to.
Were the Jews in the wilderness never saved? No God saved them all from Pharaoh and Egypt, He saved them from the pursuing army.
He saved them from blistering heat, from clothes wearing out, from starvation, from thirst... He was with them the entire time. ...and yet many failed to enter because of disobedience.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Heb 6:7; For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Heb 6:8; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Someone who was never saved in the first place can never be a "partaker of the Holy Spirit". A partaker is someone who has consumed the Spirit, tasted it.
Also somebody can't do something "again" unless they've already done it once. You can't repent "again" unless you've already repented once.
You can't crucify Jesus "again" unless you've already crucified Him once. This passage isn't about people who were never saved, there is no way it can be.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Again, this passage isn't about someone who was never saved. It's about someone who "has escaped the defilements of the world" .. and unsaved non-believer could never do that without Jesus.
A person cannot be "entangled" in sin "again" if they never stopped sinning in the first place. You can't do something "again" unless you've already done it at least once before.
You can't "turn away" from obeying Jesus, unless you are already obeying Him. Someone who was never saved has never been washed by the blood of Jesus. But some who are washed,
choose to go back to the mud.

So sad some people see it this way.