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OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

Having Holy spirit and not quenching Holy spirit after being filled are two different things. You should know better...

Bible says be filled with Holy spirit and do not quench the spirit and yet it says we are given Holy spirit until day of redemption. So you see it comes to two seperate things.
 
And yet it also says that king Saul had the Spirit taken from him

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

and king David also prayed this prayer

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

and yet you keep conveniently avoiding these issues. I understand why, though, picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible is so much more comforting. Isn't that what it boils down to? What comforts? If it's scary, or about suffering, or about discipline, it must have been meant for people outside of your doctrine; and they deserve it for not believing the truth, not believing what you believe. And the doctrine that you teach is all about pleasing men. When you try to picture God, does He look like Santa Claus in your minds?

Picture this ( and I know that you can, with the imaginations that you have ): Me knocking your dust and dirt from my shoes as a testimony against you.
 
And yet it also says that king Saul had the Spirit taken from him

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

and king David also prayed this prayer

Psalm 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

and yet you keep conveniently avoiding these issues. I understand why, though, picking and choosing what to believe from the Bible is so much more comforting. Isn't that what it boils down to? What comforts? If it's scary, or about suffering, or about discipline, it must have been meant for people outside of your doctrine; and they deserve it for not believing the truth, not believing what you believe. And the doctrine that you teach is all about pleasing men. When you try to picture God, does He look like Santa Claus in your minds?

Picture this ( and I know that you can, with the imaginations that you have ): Me knocking your dust and dirt from my shoes as a testimony against you.

these are people under the old coveant and under the law as well. And because bible cant contradict it self the way I understand this is that under new coveant you wont lose Holy spirit because Bible says Holy spirit is given "until day of redemption".

So i don't know how you can still say we could lose Holy spirit, i think the bible is clear. But maybe theres something i didnt understand, that your not even bothering to point out, as if i you think i couldnt even understand?

Or is it more like you cant prove certain parts of bible to fit your theology so your trying to settle in showing that my theology has contradictions (like yours does). Well no it doesnt, if it does show me something we havent gone through already. And dont just kick against the bricks.
 
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You bring up a very clear point. The Holy Spirit is in us as a sign, like a deposit to assure us of our salvation. You have hit a home run Jari!
 
The scriptures are clear: God cannot abide in the presence of sin. Sin separates.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God's grace and mercy may cover the odd slip and fall, but if a Christian should backslide into a life of sin, like the dog returning to its vomit, the Holy Spirit will absolutely be withdrawn from such a one until he repents and pleads again for God's forgiveness. How do I know this? Experience.

If I had died whilst in sin, I would not have been given life. How could God risk allowing into heaven anyone who does not live 100% for Him? It is too dangerous to the security and peace of the kingdom of God to allow anyone into heaven who loves the world and is living in sin. This includes all who claim the name of Christian.
 
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Hi brakelite

The scriptures are clear: God cannot abide in the presence of sin. Sin separates.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

God's grace and mercy may cover the odd slip and fall, but if a Christian should backslide into a life of sin, like the dog returning to its vomit, the Holy Spirit will absolutely be withdrawn from such a one until he repents and pleads again for God's forgiveness. How do I know this? Experience.

experiences and feelings dont matter. if God's word says we are forgiven but one day wont quite feel like so does that mean we arent?

Only what bible says about us should matter... the truth uplifts us not our effort to be good.


If I had died whilst in sin, I would not have been given life.

Does bible say this? i dont think it does.
but please show me from the bible what you say is true?

How could God risk allowing into heaven anyone who does not live 100% for Him? It is too dangerous to the security and peace of the kingdom of God to allow anyone into heaven who loves the world and is living in sin. This includes all who claim the name of Christian.

So one day you wont live for him next you do and are fit for heaven?
Doesnt God see our hearts how they are like and knows without testing will we live for him in eternity?

But one important thing , in heaven there is no sin. We only have issues with sin on earth.
So you think it depends on us how perfect and good heaven is going to be for everybody?
I dont think so heaven is perfect we never are. its just that in heaven your not subject to fallability anymore.

So God could choose everyone to heaven despite their faith or sinfulness or any other thing.
 
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"Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Rom. 5:1.

"Being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him" Rom. 5:9. See also Romans 3:24, 25.

"Being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" Titus 3:7. See also Romans 3:24.

God set forth Christ Jesus "to declare... his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" Rom. 3:26. See also Romans 8:33.

Faith shall be imputed to us for righteousness "if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification" Rom. 4:24,25.

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God" Jas. 2:21-23. The evidence of salvation is gratitude, which is good works. Many times the good works are very, very weak, but God accepts the will that is behind them.

"Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulation also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope: and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" Rom. 5:1-5.
 
The scriptures are clear: God cannot abide in the presence of sin. Sin separates.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
God's grace and mercy may cover the odd slip and fall, but if a Christian should backslide into a life of sin, like the dog returning to its vomit, the Holy Spirit will absolutely be withdrawn from such a one until he repents and pleads again for God's forgiveness. How do I know this? Experience.

If I had died whilst in sin, I would not have been given life. How could God risk allowing into heaven anyone who does not live 100% for Him? It is too dangerous to the security and peace of the kingdom of God to allow anyone into heaven who loves the world and is living in sin. This includes all who claim the name of Christian.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
God's grace and mercy may cover the odd slip and fall, but if a Christian should backslide into a life of sin, like the dog returning to its vomit, the Holy Spirit will absolutely be withdrawn from such a one until he repents and pleads again for God's forgiveness. How do I know this? Experience.

No offense and this were we can agree to disagree, I think you make a simple mistake and your thinking is therefore wrong.

You quote of Isa 59:2 is most accurate but, it is a statement of doctrine and covenant of the Law. We live in the New Covenant and not under the curse of the old law but under Grace and love.

As a "Born Again" Christian, living under the New Covenant is all about God in us. God dwelling in us is not predicated on our being perfect and sinless 24/7, which is impossible for us eventhough we are walking in the Christian Life. Thats what Grace is, it is free and not based on our works but the fruits of the one who is in us.

God calls us blameless, holy and righteousness. We can offer God nothing; our offerings would be like filthy rags.

When he looks at us he does not see our sin, Jesus has taken that away from his sight and it is not our blamelessness, holiness and righteuous but of the one who lives in us.

What sin seperates, Jesus reconcils and brings together!!
 
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osas

I have a question that I would like an answer to please. This is for those who believe you can fall from your salvation. Could you please tell me if you believe you can regain your salvation, and how?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.:shock:
 
Does bible say this? i dont think it does.
but please show me from the bible what you say is true?



.
Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


I built again much of what I had previously destroyed. I was growing and smoking dope again; stealing; blaspheming; and many other things which I am ashamed to admit. You claim that I would still go to heaven. I would repeat to you Paul
s question. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. I was a transgressor. I was not forgiven for I was not seeking God, I had not at that time repented, I had not confessed my sin.

Revel. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcomes shall not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life. I, my friend, was not overcoming. My name was not written in that book.

Revel. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
Hi brakelite. I dont thin any of the verses have to do with self effort. Because if rightneusness came by law Christ died in vain.




Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


I built again much of what I had previously destroyed. I was growing and smoking dope again; stealing; blaspheming; and many other things which I am ashamed to admit. You claim that I would still go to heaven. I would repeat to you Paul
s question. Is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. I was a transgressor. I was not forgiven for I was not seeking God, I had not at that time repented, I had not confessed my sin.

Revel. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcomes shall not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life. I, my friend, was not overcoming. My name was not written in that book.

Revel. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You quoted galatians out of context when Paul was pricely saying that we dont live under the law you used the verse to say we do...
Lets read it more in context:

14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?


15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.



Paul was saying if he builds the things that are of law to live by them then he is making him self a transgressor because he is transgressor only by the law.

The topic Paul was adressing was galatians turning back to works of the law instead of relying on Grace.


Rom 4:15-16 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. (16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
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The topic Paul was adressing was galatians turning back to works of the law instead of relying on Grace.
I agree,the sin of pride through self improvement by self effort(obeying the law) basically rejects the grace offered through Christ 2000 years ago.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)


This happened 2000 years ago and I can't remember ever repenting back then.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We are seated in heavenly places now,the kingdom of heaven can be in us if we meet certain criteria.

Ephesians 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Are we now in the ages to come?
I think it was an awesome thing he did,it helps me see the depth of his grace and kindness toward us.
God did all this through Christ 2000 years before I even acknowledged that he might exist.
 
I have a question that I would like an answer to please. This is for those who believe you can fall from your salvation. Could you please tell me if you believe you can regain your salvation, and how?

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question.:shock:

This has recently been debated a lot.

My perpsective is that "Eternal Security" is true for those who are truly Born Again. I know as humans and with our imperfection, if we are truly saved the first time, we can let our human nature disrupt our relationship with God but, to " fall away" again to an unsaved state is not possible.

So, if you truly think that you can go from a saved state to and unsaved state, I have no answer for that.

Like Paul says about Jesus not climbing back on the Cross for your repeated forgiveness, so it goes with your salvation.

The essence of the New Covenant, is God in us and, he said that he would never leave or forsake us.

I see nothing in the New Covenant that, once in you, that God will leave.
 
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The two camps of this discussion must if the focus is truly to remain on OSAS allow that the interjection of Law in regards to salvation as a topic for another thread.

Seems like when we discuss Salvation that we can't get away from discussing the applicability of the Law to a believer, even though they are different subjects no matter how closely related they appear.
With Love Brothers & Sisters.
C4E
 
The two camps of this discussion must if the focus is truly to remain on OSAS allow that the interjection of Law in regards to salvation as a topic for another thread.

Seems like when we discuss Salvation that we can't get away from discussing the applicability of the Law to a believer, even though they are different subjects no matter how closely related they appear.
With Love Brothers & Sisters.
C4E

no the law is bind to this topic. if you think only jews could err to do acts of law your wrong. even today "gentiles" do their works of their laws.

jews went back to jewish law and we can go to any law human can possibly imagine.
which is an error...
and we should rely on grace and not in works. I think bible is very clear that salvation is not of works but free gift... why then insist works? and contradict the bible. No matter how you put it, you have all along talking about works to archieve or retain salvation, its still all the same. Works is works.

I hope you see my point ...
 
no the law is bind to this topic. if you think only jews could err to do acts of law your wrong. even today "gentiles" do their works of their laws.

jews went back to jewish law and we can go to any law human can possibly imagine.
which is an error...
and we should rely on grace and not in works. I think bible is very clear that salvation is not of works but free gift... why then insist works? and contradict the bible. No matter how you put it, you have all along talking about works to archieve or retain salvation, its still all the same. Works is works.

I hope you see my point ...
I see your point my brother, yet I don’t think you’re seeing mine
Salvation is by Grace, yet salvation is also conditional. Is this a true or false statement? I hope you don’t disagree, because by your own words this is a “free gift”, and if a gift, isn’t it dependent upon the individual accepting it?
 
I see your point my brother, yet I don’t think you’re seeing mine
Salvation is by Grace, yet salvation is also conditional. Is this a true or false statement? I hope you don’t disagree, because by your own words this is a “free gift”, and if a gift, isn’t it dependent upon the individual accepting it?

Hi

Once you have received the gift is it possible to give it back? if you dont want to give it back its yours to keep without strings attached.

isnt that what gifts are.
 
Hi

Once you have received the gift is it possible to give it back? if you dont want to give it back its yours to keep without strings attached.

isnt that what gifts are.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but to follow along with yours. Since you phrased it in the below fashion, the question then becomes can you give the gift back?

"If you dont want to give it back its yours to keep without strings attached."
 
That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but to follow along with yours. Since you phrased it in the below fashion, the question then becomes can you give the gift back?

"If you dont want to give it back its yours to keep without strings attached."

Well like i said i dont think so.
why would anyone give it back? The gift is already received before we reach heaven so we may enjoy glimbse of heaven. and when u do that who wants to give heaven away. who wants to give heaven away for any reason?

i dont know and even if we doupt bible says he cannot deny him self so i believe we have the gift of God (Heaven) always.
 
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By my deliberate backsliding, my turning away from Christ, my turning my back on all that He had previously accomplished in my life and returning to the selfish pleasure seeking life that I had wallowed in before I met Him, I had also turned my back on His offer of eternal life, because the wages of sin is death.
For anyone to believe that such a one would be welcomed into the kingdom of God is gross presumption.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Now please take careful note of the following for it tells us precisley who will receive eternal life....
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

I will repeat: eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in well doing seek for it. I am not making this up, they are Paul's words inspired by the Holy Spirit. The point is this: if I do not patiently continue in well doing and seeking glory, honour, and immortality, I will not receive it! And neither will anyone else!
 
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