our current president is stupid!

[Animosity]

Yes I realize that when he was elected, that the economy was already bad. However, he just made it worse! He didn't do ANYTHING
to make it better!

Instead of pulling out the war, he didn't. That money could've been used to create new jobs, but instead he just insisted on keeping in this war for ages. To my knowledge he is FINALLY pulling troops out, but too little, too late. The damage of his poor decision has already been done.

Also because of the government not knowing how to manage their budget properly, the nation is in MASSIVE debt. Of course, we're the ones suffering the consequences because of it.

 

[farout]

President Obama.

I have never prayed for a president as much as havefor Mr. Obama. I never thought a president could do more to change our country than Mr. Obama.

In just a little less than 3 years Mr. Obama has been able to change the Military, now same sex couples can openly flaunt their sinful lifestyle. Military Chaplain's can now marry these happy couples on base. The DOM has been ignored by Mr. Obama's orders. :secret:

Mr Obama has been to one Prayer breakfast out of four he could have gone to. Mr. Obama has no church membership in Washington DC. Mr. Obama has celebrated Muslim holidays in the White House and on the White House Grounds with a large number of Muslim's.:coocoo:

Mr. Onama has bowed before a foriegn King. Mr. Obama says we are not a Christian Nation. Mr. Obama has appointed several Muslims to government positions. :shock:

Mr. Obama's brothers claim Mr. Obama is infact a Muslin. Mr. Obama says he is a christian.

I am disabled veteran and all this makes me. :suspicious:

 

[Peace Seeker]

I have never prayed for a president as much as havefor Mr. Obama. I never thought a president could do more to change our country than Mr. Obama.

In just a little less than 3 years Mr. Obama has been able to change the Military, now same sex couples can openly flaunt their sinful lifestyle. Military Chaplain's can now marry these happy couples on base. The DOM has been ignored by Mr. Obama's orders. :secret:

Mr Obama has been to one Prayer breakfast out of four he could have gone to. Mr. Obama has no church membership in Washington DC. Mr. Obama has celebrated Muslim holidays in the White House and on the White House Grounds with a large number of Muslim's.:coocoo:

Mr. Onama has bowed before a foriegn King. Mr. Obama says we are not a Christian Nation. Mr. Obama has appointed several Muslims to government positions. :shock:

Mr. Obama's brothers claim Mr. Obama is infact a Muslin. Mr. Obama says he is a christian.

I am disabled veteran and all this makes me. :suspicious:

Our governments are all anti-Christ to the core and ruled by spiritual wickedness in high places. So are you really surprised about President Obama-nation?

A good tree brings forth good fruit, a bad tree brings forth bad fruit.

The hidden elite of the world that control all our governments will never allow a Godly man or woman to take their power away from them. You don't get in the old boys' club unless you're one of them, evil to the core, or at least willing to ignore the evil for your own personal gain, which basically amounts to the same thing.

As long as we keep voting for these snakes and falling for their satanic lies, we get what we deserve.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Yes I realize that when he was elected, that the economy was already bad. However, he just made it worse! He didn't do ANYTHING
to make it better!

Instead of pulling out the war, he didn't. That money could've been used to create new jobs, but instead he just insisted on keeping in this war for ages. To my knowledge he is FINALLY pulling troops out, but too little, too late. The damage of his poor decision has already been done.

Also because of the government not knowing how to manage their budget properly, the nation is in MASSIVE debt. Of course, we're the ones suffering the consequences because of it.

He's not stupid at all. He's just following the script of his Wall Street / Federal Reserve/big money elite handlers. Do you really believe he or any other government official actually runs the show????

He's a figurehead, a puppet. The pied-piper of the starry-eyed masses.

 

[gdemoss]

Never speak evil of the ruler of your people. All authority is from God. Instead pray a prayer of thanksgiving to God for the leadership of Obama who is moving this country in the direction that God desires it to be for his own purposes which he purposes in himself. Unfortunately many seem to believe that it is Gods will for us to be prosperous and financially secure. If it be Gods will that this country be destroyed by poor financial policy then i say bring it down and bring it down hard.

I praise God for putting those in power who took and crucified my Lord and Savior. Just like Peter, I don't always understand what God is doing but in the end I know that it is the right thing to do.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[farout]

gdemoss:

I can not speak for the government of Canada. We in the United States heave very little of Canadian Politics, and what I know comes by the way od TV news casts. Perhaps that may be the same in Canada.

None the less, evil grown when Christians don'e vote or challange the evil some in political office do. I know God is not behind some of the anti-Christ views and actions Mr. Obama has presented and inacted a sPresident. Mr. Obama's support of abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, the religion of Islam, are totally against everything God has said is evil.

John The Baptist was beheaded becouse he brought accountability to a marriage that was evil. We should do no less.

Unless we stand against such unBiblical policies by our government, them we shall be by our doing nothing, gives our approval.

I am not saying that God is not working in our government's. God can use a President to punish those who did nothing to stop evil.

Just the abortions done daily in the US are reason to provoke the LORD Almighty to wrath on our country. But let us not just finger the US or Canada, but the whole world is full of killing live babies, in the womb.

Personally, I refuse to give even the slightest nod, to indicate any approval of such wickedness in the policies presented by anyone in the US government. By the same token I will support those who do good and applaud their good deeds.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I agree with part of what gdemoss says as well as parts of what others have posted. All authority is God given. We should be praying for our Leaders, at all times. I pray that God will use President Obama or other leaders to turn this country back to Him. God will use both those who call Him Father, and those who do not know Him. This may very well bring this country to its knees, which is my hope. However, not because of the calamity that this country has been brought to financial and otherwise I ask this, but because they have changed and willingly are turning back to God praising His Holy Name! I pray God will hear our pleas for intersession for this country and its people so that they may turn back to Him. In Jesus Name I pray that. Amen, Amen, Amen.
C4E

Matthew 16:26

 

[gdemoss]

I can not speak for the government of Canada. We in the United States heave very little of Canadian Politics, and what I know comes by the way od TV news casts. Perhaps that may be the same in Canada.

I don't understand. Do you think I am from Canada?

None the less, evil grown when Christians don'e vote or challange the evil some in political office do. I know God is not behind some of the anti-Christ views and actions Mr. Obama has presented and inacted a sPresident. Mr. Obama's support of abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage, the religion of Islam, are totally against everything God has said is evil.

I'll vote the day that a real honest Christian who walks as Jesus walked is on the ballot. Hasn't happened yet. Only evil candidates. God is not behind or supportive of the evil except that he allows it for his purposes.

John The Baptist was beheaded becouse he brought accountability to a marriage that was evil. We should do no less.

Amen, John spoke directly to his face and reproved him of his sin. If I get that opportunity I will do the same. I will not go around speaking evil of the man otherwise.

Unless we stand against such unBiblical policies by our government, them we shall be by our doing nothing, gives our approval.

The only godly way to do this is through voting. The policies are made by those who are voted into office. They are not changed by my posting my opinion of them on a forum. Once again get us a godly candidate to vote for.

I am not saying that God is not working in our government's. God can use a President to punish those who did nothing to stop evil.

God can use a leader to punish those who refuse to have him as their leader. God gave Saul as a punishment by giving the people what they wanted. I believe the american people are getting what they want. They do not want to be ruled by Jesus Christ. They only want him to save them.

Just the abortions done daily in the US are reason to provoke the LORD Almighty to wrath on our country. But let us not just finger the US or Canada, but the whole world is full of killing live babies, in the womb.

Amen, the whole world has rejected God as their leader. Just as John said...the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Personally, I refuse to give even the slightest nod, to indicate any approval of such wickedness in the policies presented by anyone in the US government. By the same token I will support those who do good and applaud their good deeds.

I support Gods choices to allow evil for his purposes. Poor Job didn't deserve the evil that happened to him but without it we wouldn't have the necessary revelation from God. The overthrow and destruction of Gods people and his temple is tragic but I applaud God for allowing it. Using evil for his purpose. His ways are not our ways.

Those things said, I support God and his ways. There is a way that seems right to a man that leads to death. God has used evil in my life to cause me to turn to him. For this cause I am saved. The goodness of God was allowing evil in my life to bring me to salvation.

I love God and hate evil. God used the evil for my good. Maybe, just maybe this awful policies coming into being are ultimately going to be used to deliver many from death. Or maybe it is leading up to God destroying the country. Either way I love and support God, even if it means the destruction of my own country and a more difficult life for me ahead.

Peace be with you

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

I agree with part of what gdemoss says as well as parts of what others have posted. All authority is God given. We should be praying for our Leaders, at all times. I pray that God will use President Obama or other leaders to turn this country back to Him. God will use both those who call Him Father, and those who do not know Him. This may very well bring this country to its knees, which is my hope. However, not because of the calamity that this country has been brought to financial and otherwise I ask this, but because they have changed and willingly are turning back to God praising His Holy Name! I pray God will hear our pleas for intersession for this country and its people so that they may turn back to Him. In Jesus Name I pray that. Amen, Amen, Amen.
C4E

Matthew 16:26

Amen, whatever leads to the salvation of souls.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Never speak evil of the ruler of your people. All authority is from God. Instead pray a prayer of thanksgiving to God for the leadership of Obama who is moving this country in the direction that God desires it to be for his own purposes which he purposes in himself. Unfortunately many seem to believe that it is Gods will for us to be prosperous and financially secure. If it be Gods will that this country be destroyed by poor financial policy then i say bring it down and bring it down hard.

I praise God for putting those in power who took and crucified my Lord and Savior. Just like Peter, I don't always understand what God is doing but in the end I know that it is the right thing to do.

In Christ,

Gary

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe if we support evil rulers we are blessing them and siding with them and we get what we deserve, not what God actually wants for us.

Yes, all authority comes from God but not all authority is used in Godly fashion or should be supported. We partake of and become what we support, do we not?

What is your opinion of all the resistance forces of World War II ? Or of your American founding fathers? Or the 3 Hebrew men thrown in the furnace, who chose to obey God rather than man and resisted their evil rulers? Resistance to evil is obedience to God !!!

History shows us over and over that submitting to evil rulers ALWAYS results in total enslavement and utter tyranny.

Do you really believe that's what God wants for His people, or do you just believe that's what WE DESERVE?

And as well, the bible shows us continually that when we obey Him we have peace and Godly government, when we disobey we get captivity and punishment. We either resist evil or we partake of it, there's no middle road.

There are way too many verses in the bible to list here, that command us not to partake of evil, whether by supporting it openly or by merely acquiescing to it.

What God does in His ultimate Sovereignty is His business. I agree that He can use evil towards making something good, but that doesn't change the fact that we are to "come out of Babylon, lest we be partakers of her sins", not make excuses for supporting it.

Regarding your comment that "Obama is moving this country in the direction that God desires it to be".

Again I will have to strongly disagree. I believe God has the best of abundant, wonderful life and government in mind for us, and if we aren't experiencing that, it's because we are disobeying Him by supporting evil in His name!

2 Chronicles 7:14 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

If our land is not healed it is because we are not turning from our wicked ways.

Member FAROUT mentioned things like the evil abortion plague we have. When you vote, you are supporting all those evils the rulers do. You can't make the excuse that God is in control.

Yes, He is in control. And He also commanded us to be good stewards and salt of the Earth.

Let's do a short study on Romans 13
( Submission to Governing Authorities)

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

No argument here, so far. Now let's get some context.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

this is talking about GODLY RULERS! For evil rulers DO hold terror towards those that do right.
So the context here is that we are to support GODLY rulers that hold no terror towards those who do right.

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

Again, this is instructing us to obey governments that are Godly rulers. In Godly government those who do good have no fear and are commended.

4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This verse should be so self-evident ! What kind of government is being described here, a good or evil one? It is describing rulers that punish evil and rule with justice. Rulers that we should obey, not only because we get punished if we don't, but because our good conscience would be pricked if we didn't.

Everyone with common sense knows that our governments are rotten and evil to the core. No amount of trying to clear our guilty consciences by saying everything is God's will, will change that.

You should also be made aware that in our post-9/11 era FEMA, the FBI and other government groups have been visiting churches all over America and heavily propagandizing and instructing them to do the very thing you say we should do. Obey your government, we are here to help you, we are your friends..............

Government officials are actually telling pastors to preach Romans 13 as a doctrine of submission towards them.

Well, all I can say to that is the blind will always lead the blind into a ditch. And if anyone can show me that our wicked governments aren't blind, please do.

I will never submit to un-Godly tyrants. It is better to obey God than men, AMEN?

 

[gdemoss]

I have to respectfully disagree with you. I believe if we support evil rulers we are blessing them and siding with them and we get what we deserve, not what God actually wants for us.

Yes, all authority comes from God but not all authority is used in Godly fashion or should be supported. We partake of and become what we support, do we not?

What is your opinion of all the resistance forces of World War II ? Or of your American founding fathers? Or the 3 Hebrew men thrown in the furnace, who chose to obey God rather than man and resisted their evil rulers? Resistance to evil is obedience to God !!!

History shows us over and over that submitting to evil rulers ALWAYS results in total enslavement and utter tyranny.

Do you really believe that's what God wants for His people, or do you just believe that's what WE DESERVE?

And as well, the bible shows us continually that when we obey Him we have peace and Godly government, when we disobey we get captivity and punishment. We either resist evil or we partake of it, there's no middle road.

There are way too many verses in the bible to list here, that command us not to partake of evil, whether by supporting it openly or by merely acquiescing to it.

What God does in His ultimate Sovereignty is His business. I agree that He can use evil towards making something good, but that doesn't change the fact that we are to "come out of Babylon, lest we be partakers of her sins", not make excuses for supporting it.

Regarding your comment that "Obama is moving this country in the direction that God desires it to be".

Again I will have to strongly disagree. I believe God has the best of abundant, wonderful life and government in mind for us, and if we aren't experiencing that, it's because we are disobeying Him by supporting evil in His name!

2 Chronicles 7:14 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

If our land is not healed it is because we are not turning from our wicked ways.

Member FAROUT mentioned things like the evil abortion plague we have. When you vote, you are supporting all those evils the rulers do. You can't make the excuse that God is in control.

Yes, He is in control. And He also commanded us to be good stewards and salt of the Earth.

Let's do a short study on Romans 13
( Submission to Governing Authorities)

1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

No argument here, so far. Now let's get some context.

3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong.

this is talking about GODLY RULERS! For evil rulers DO hold terror towards those that do right.
So the context here is that we are to support GODLY rulers that hold no terror towards those who do right.

Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.

Again, this is instructing us to obey governments that are Godly rulers. In Godly government those who do good have no fear and are commended.

4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This verse should be so self-evident ! What kind of government is being described here, a good or evil one? It is describing rulers that punish evil and rule with justice. Rulers that we should obey, not only because we get punished if we don't, but because our good conscience would be pricked if we didn't.

Everyone with common sense knows that our governments are rotten and evil to the core. No amount of trying to clear our guilty consciences by saying everything is God's will, will change that.

You should also be made aware that in our post-9/11 era FEMA, the FBI and other government groups have been visiting churches all over America and heavily propagandizing and instructing them to do the very thing you say we should do. Obey your government, we are here to help you, we are your friends..............

Government officials are actually telling pastors to preach Romans 13 as a doctrine of submission towards them.

Well, all I can say to that is the blind will always lead the blind into a ditch. And if anyone can show me that our wicked governments aren't blind, please do.

I will never submit to un-Godly tyrants. It is better to obey God than men, AMEN?

What this shows is that you don't understand me and maybe because I wasn't clear. I don't support the evil that our government does like support gay marriage and abortion. If they told me that I must abort my child I would say no. If they told me that I couldn't tell a gay man he was living in sin and needed to repent, I would anyway. I would resist every ungodly thing that they want for me to do and only obey when it is within the realm of Gods will for me. Even if it meant that I would be imprisoned or killed.

That said, if God is using this evil government to punish the ungodly people of this world and turn them toward repentance THEN I say go ahead and destroy this country. It is not about me having financial security or peace of mind. It is about a spiritual war that is raging that I am supposed to be using my entire life and energy to fight. This life is not about being born, going to school and deciding what I want to be when I grow up, retiring and then dying after having lived what I consider a well lived life. Living the American Dream. That is Satan's idea of a good life.

Tell me, do you read the bible and come to the conclusion that God loves America? What do you think that God thinks about Capitalism? The countries public school system? The freedom of religion as a protected right? Taxing people for every little thing that can be done like fishing for example? Government funded welfare and food stamps? The freedom of abortion? The freedom of strip clubs, nudist resorts or partner swapping clubs? Professional Sports? Television? Radio? Amusement Parks?

What does your God think of these things?

I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too. America is evil and always has been. America has always been about freedom for the people, NOT following the Creator who created them. This is not the goal.

One last question. Did Jesus submit to the evil rulers of his day? As they wrongfully arrested him against the law of God? As they unlawfully tried him against the law of God? As they beat an innocent man? No Jesus would not rise up against the rulers since sedition is a sin. No Jesus would not speak evil of his rulers since it was against the mosaic law. Jesus would never have performed a sinful act if a ruler had told him to do so...of course not. Jesus did not support this government. He was obedient unto to it as long as they did not tell him to do something sinful. Did Jesus stand up against the government and protest what they were doing? Did he tell his followers to do so?

My job is to follow my Lord. I go into the world seeking to save that which is lost. I do what I can to feed the flock of God. I look forward to the day when the war is actually over and Jesus reigns in peace. Until then I am just a soldier in a spiritual war. There has never been an uncorrupt government of any nation and there never will until Christ rules. So I pray for my rulers that they may come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. That is my duty.

Come Lord Jesus, reign over us...

Gary

 

[dannibear]

I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too. America is evil and always has been. America has always been about freedom for the people, NOT following the Creator who created them. This is not the goal.


Gary

There are people from other countries around this world that are honored
and very thankful to be in America just to be able to worship Jesus Christ,
and be with other believers, something that they don't have the freedom to
do in their own countries. Many are killed or shunned by their own families just for professing themselves as a Christian or having a Bible in their home.

It should also be noted that many people of Jesus' time did not really love God either, they loved self righteousness, pagan traditions, or only wanted someone to rule their country with military authority so as to be freed from Roman rule. That is why the Pharisees and the Romans were ready to find any offense, even if false, to kill Him. Much like the many people running around in any country, not just America, wanting to discredit Jesus' ministry or brainwashing people to believe anything other than in Jesus Christ alone. We must always stand in Jesus, even in the face of persecution everywhere. You have feelings of hatred for this country, which is understandable, but I am proud to live in a place where I am not arrested or brutally beaten by my own government for posting on a Christian forum. We take our freedoms for granted, the very freedom our soldiers have died for us to have. That is why Jesus said be the light of the world, so we can be an example to unbelievers. If everyone followed those words more, we could influence this nation to lean more on Jesus than their own knowledge. If more 'Christians' followed those words, what the president said would not mean anything, because the people would have something different to show.

 

[HoneyBare]

All I know is that God is in control. Obama may think he is in control of this country, but we know who really is in control of the whole universe. When it comes right down to it, Obama will be bowing his knees to the King of Kings one of these days. :wink:

 

[Peace Seeker]

What this shows is that you don't understand me and maybe because I wasn't clear. I don't support the evil that our government does like support gay marriage and abortion. If they told me that I must abort my child I would say no. If they told me that I couldn't tell a gay man he was living in sin and needed to repent, I would anyway. I would resist every ungodly thing that they want for me to do and only obey when it is within the realm of Gods will for me. Even if it meant that I would be imprisoned or killed.

That said, if God is using this evil government to punish the ungodly people of this world and turn them toward repentance THEN I say go ahead and destroy this country. It is not about me having financial security or peace of mind. It is about a spiritual war that is raging that I am supposed to be using my entire life and energy to fight. This life is not about being born, going to school and deciding what I want to be when I grow up, retiring and then dying after having lived what I consider a well lived life. Living the American Dream. That is Satan's idea of a good life.

Tell me, do you read the bible and come to the conclusion that God loves America? What do you think that God thinks about Capitalism? The countries public school system? The freedom of religion as a protected right? Taxing people for every little thing that can be done like fishing for example? Government funded welfare and food stamps? The freedom of abortion? The freedom of strip clubs, nudist resorts or partner swapping clubs? Professional Sports? Television? Radio? Amusement Parks?

What does your God think of these things?

I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too. America is evil and always has been. America has always been about freedom for the people, NOT following the Creator who created them. This is not the goal.

One last question. Did Jesus submit to the evil rulers of his day? As they wrongfully arrested him against the law of God? As they unlawfully tried him against the law of God? As they beat an innocent man? No Jesus would not rise up against the rulers since sedition is a sin. No Jesus would not speak evil of his rulers since it was against the mosaic law. Jesus would never have performed a sinful act if a ruler had told him to do so...of course not. Jesus did not support this government. He was obedient unto to it as long as they did not tell him to do something sinful. Did Jesus stand up against the government and protest what they were doing? Did he tell his followers to do so?

My job is to follow my Lord. I go into the world seeking to save that which is lost. I do what I can to feed the flock of God. I look forward to the day when the war is actually over and Jesus reigns in peace. Until then I am just a soldier in a spiritual war. There has never been an uncorrupt government of any nation and there never will until Christ rules. So I pray for my rulers that they may come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved. That is my duty.

Come Lord Jesus, reign over us...

Gary

Perhaps I may have misunderstood you, but not in the way you think I did. (?) And I think you have misunderstood me too.
What I was disagreeing with was your statement that "we must never speak evil of our rulers". Which sounds to me like turning a blind eye - "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". I don't think that's the attitude God wants us to have.

And I gave my reasons why I disagree, about how submission to evil results in tyranny, etc. I never meant to imply that you, personally, are to blame for all the ills of America. And I was not attacking you (if it seemed like I was), just disagreeing.

Anyway, you said to me : "What does your God think of these things?
I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too".
I don't know what to think of this statement, other than I hope you weren't implying that I have a different God than you! That would be most unfortunate and definitely uncalled for. In fact it would be quite insulting and very uncharitable of you!

You never answered any of my questions but I will try to answer yours. No, I don't believe God loves America or anything she stands for. My contention was clear, that America is evil to the core, so of course the hand of God is upon it. And that's why I have the stance I do about submitting to it.

My personal view is that if one votes for them, he is agreeing with their goals and what they do. Again, I don't think that's the proper thing to do. I can't vote for someone that does abortions and then say I'm against abortion!

To answer your statement : "if God is using this evil government to punish the ungodly people of this world and turn them toward repentance THEN I say go ahead and destroy this country".

My reply is, is God using our governments to punish evil-doers, or Godly people? Because I think the ungodly people love the way things are going and want more of it. The gays, abortionists, etc. - all the evils you mentioned.
So I would have to say God is not punishing the ungodly, but the Godly people in America, to shake them from their slumber and awaken them into becoming salt of the earth and taking Godly dominion of their lands.

You said you would resist every ungodly thing even if it meant that you would be imprisoned or killed. I commend you for that and agree with your stance. On that note, here in Canada (and in other Western democracies) prison is a reality. We have "hate laws" punishable by jail for speaking out against evil. You do not, but it's coming.

Regarding your question, "did Jesus submit to the evil rulers of his day?"
I would say He submitted to His Father's will. Everything He did was in obedience to His Father. I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of God ever submitting to evil.

God, in Jesus, was always in full, sovereign authority and control in everything He did while He walked the Earth.

Did Jesus submit to the false authority and false teachings of the Pharisees? Of course not!

And I know you didn't mention the following example, but I think it would be stretching it to use the example (and similar ones) that Jesus said the people should pay taxes to Caesar, to equate that with saying He was in submission to authority. He did a lot of things because they were expedient to do and they had a purpose towards fulfilling His mission.

Any submission Jesus did was with a goal in mind, to offer Himself as a blood sacrifice for the remission of our sins.
His submission was to show us that He willingly and voluntarily laid down His life for us, that He greatly loves us.

If He had resisted the rulers in any way, then the people would have regarded Him as just another political zealot, and would be able to say that He was doing things for Himself, instead of for us.

So, even if I allow that Jesus fully submitted to the evil rulers, I still don't think it means we are, for all time, to submit to our evil rulers. Moses didn't submit to the Egyptians he, in faith, freed them from their slavery. Your founding fathers resisted the evils of their English rulers and as a result gave you the best government that has ever existed.

What would have happened if they had obeyed King George III, with the idea that obedience to authority is the only option they had?

By that thinking, one would have to allow the possibility that God had never intended for America to exist, that He never intended to exceedingly bless His people by giving them their own land, free from England's tyranny and religious oppression.

If America had never existed, then who would have been the missionaries to the world? Who would have produced all the bibles and wrote all the praise songs to their God? And what country would have been primarily a land of Christians, filling churches and glorifying God?

So to say that whatever state your government happens to be in at a given time is always God's will, and as such should be accepted and submitted to, is saying we can look into the future and see God's plans.

Lastly, Jesus did drive out the money-changers in the temple and spoke very harshly against the religious rulers.

I am not sure that we will be able to agree with each other, and that's okay. I am going to pray about this and I hope you don't take anything I said personally. I am not against you, my brother in Christ, because I disagree.

 

[Christ4Ever]

All I know is that God is in control. Obama may think he is in control of this country, but we know who really is in control of the whole universe. When it comes right down to it, Obama will be bowing his knees to the King of Kings one of these days.

Amen HoneyBare!

 

[gdemoss]

Perhaps I may have misunderstood you, but not in the way you think I did. (?) And I think you have misunderstood me too.
What I was disagreeing with was your statement that "we must never speak evil of our rulers". Which sounds to me like turning a blind eye - "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil". I don't think that's the attitude God wants us to have.

And I gave my reasons why I disagree, about how submission to evil results in tyranny, etc. I never meant to imply that you, personally, are to blame for all the ills of America. And I was not attacking you (if it seemed like I was), just disagreeing.

Anyway, you said to me : "What does your God think of these things?
I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too".
I don't know what to think of this statement, other than I hope you weren't implying that I have a different God than you! That would be most unfortunate and definitely uncalled for. In fact it would be quite insulting and very uncharitable of you!

You never answered any of my questions but I will try to answer yours. No, I don't believe God loves America or anything she stands for. My contention was clear, that America is evil to the core, so of course the hand of God is upon it. And that's why I have the stance I do about submitting to it.

My personal view is that if one votes for them, he is agreeing with their goals and what they do. Again, I don't think that's the proper thing to do. I can't vote for someone that does abortions and then say I'm against abortion!

To answer your statement : "if God is using this evil government to punish the ungodly people of this world and turn them toward repentance THEN I say go ahead and destroy this country".

My reply is, is God using our governments to punish evil-doers, or Godly people? Because I think the ungodly people love the way things are going and want more of it. The gays, abortionists, etc. - all the evils you mentioned.
So I would have to say God is not punishing the ungodly, but the Godly people in America, to shake them from their slumber and awaken them into becoming salt of the earth and taking Godly dominion of their lands.

You said you would resist every ungodly thing even if it meant that you would be imprisoned or killed. I commend you for that and agree with your stance. On that note, here in Canada (and in other Western democracies) prison is a reality. We have "hate laws" punishable by jail for speaking out against evil. You do not, but it's coming.

Regarding your question, "did Jesus submit to the evil rulers of his day?"
I would say He submitted to His Father's will. Everything He did was in obedience to His Father. I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of God ever submitting to evil.

God, in Jesus, was always in full, sovereign authority and control in everything He did while He walked the Earth.

Did Jesus submit to the false authority and false teachings of the Pharisees? Of course not!

And I know you didn't mention the following example, but I think it would be stretching it to use the example (and similar ones) that Jesus said the people should pay taxes to Caesar, to equate that with saying He was in submission to authority. He did a lot of things because they were expedient to do and they had a purpose towards fulfilling His mission.

Any submission Jesus did was with a goal in mind, to offer Himself as a blood sacrifice for the remission of our sins.
His submission was to show us that He willingly and voluntarily laid down His life for us, that He greatly loves us.

If He had resisted the rulers in any way, then the people would have regarded Him as just another political zealot, and would be able to say that He was doing things for Himself, instead of for us.

So, even if I allow that Jesus fully submitted to the evil rulers, I still don't think it means we are, for all time, to submit to our evil rulers. Moses didn't submit to the Egyptians he, in faith, freed them from their slavery. Your founding fathers resisted the evils of their English rulers and as a result gave you the best government that has ever existed.

What would have happened if they had obeyed King George III, with the idea that obedience to authority is the only option they had?

By that thinking, one would have to allow the possibility that God had never intended for America to exist, that He never intended to exceedingly bless His people by giving them their own land, free from England's tyranny and religious oppression.

If America had never existed, then who would have been the missionaries to the world? Who would have produced all the bibles and wrote all the praise songs to their God? And what country would have been primarily a land of Christians, filling churches and glorifying God?

So to say that whatever state your government happens to be in at a given time is always God's will, and as such should be accepted and submitted to, is saying we can look into the future and see God's plans.

Lastly, Jesus did drive out the money-changers in the temple and spoke very harshly against the religious rulers.

I am not sure that we will be able to agree with each other, and that's okay. I am going to pray about this and I hope you don't take anything I said personally. I am not against you, my brother in Christ, because I disagree.

your response clarifies my understanding. I used 'your' God to make sure that we have the 'same' Jesus as there are many Jesus' in what is called Christianity today. I won't follow someone else's Jesus. What I see when I read what you wrote is that you have assigned motive to why God has allowed what he has in this country. It is those motives that I disagree with that do not sound like the God of the bible.

You mention things like who would have sent the missionaries. I must ask how many true missionaries have been sent? How many false? Is America any better of a place because there is no persecution? God said if I was willing to live Godly in Christ Jesus I would absolutely suffer persecution. Where are the true followers of Christ in America that are receiving this promise?

When I am at work, I work as unto God. I end up producing a lot more product than those who have no fear of God before their eyes. The light exposes the darkness and they retaliate against me. I tell them I work for God and not the company and that if they do not repent and turn toward God that they will suffer an awful fate. I am not well liked or well spoken of.

When I meet someone who is Catholic or Pentecostal I seek to show them the heresy in the teachings of their church as I have diligently studied out the beliefs and reject them as heresy. The bible teaches that I am to admonish them twice and then reject them knowing that they are subverted and will be damned, not saved. I am not very popular with them just as Jesus was not with the Pharisees. I am to do this in meekness.

I hate the heresy that Jesus taught that our 'love' for one another is to look past our doctrinal differences and just live together in peace. Those who believe this lie will end up in Hell. I want to help them avoid this fate by truly turning away from Heresy and walk with the Lord. Our love for one another is to withstand each other to the face when we are to be blamed. Like the examples of Jesus and Paul to Peter. What Love! Get behind me Satan! Don't be a hypocrite Peter! They both were washing Peters feet.

My friend there is a time coming when Antichrist will take all of the false denominations of Christianity and complete the ecumenical movement. He will have them live happily along side Muslims and Buddhists. He will seemingly have answers to all the problems of the world. He will destroy any and all who oppose 'his' way to peace. I am not dogmatic about it but I believe that it is entirely possible that Mystery ***** Babylon could be America and her approach to peace through ecumenism and democracy.

There is a tiny little verse in Revelation that doesn't stick out. We read "and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another:" This is part of the 'second' seal judgement. There was peace on Earth and God removed it. Do you think God desires peace on Earth regardless of the means to achieve it? I think not. God desires peace on Earth one way and one way only. By submission to him and following his ways. Gods ways are not mans ways but can become mans ways if man will truly follow Jesus.

I would rather live in a country where the battle lines between evil and good are clearly drawn than this country where Satan's ministers have transformed themselves into the ministers of light and have taken captive those who are lead astray to follow his Jesus.

My allegiance is to Jesus Christ as he is found in the bible. This allegiance will cause me to be naturally aligned with those who are like minded. Together we will oppose all evil and suffer whatever consequences come from following him as he is. Our bond as the children of the living God will make us one and inseparable. We are those who hear his voice and follow him. Anyone who is not with us is against us.

Democracy is of the Devil. Theocracy is of God. A theocracy cannot be achieved by the willful force of men but by the voluntary submission of men to God in there hearts. I live in a democracy based nation but I follow a theocracy ruled by Jesus Christ in my heart. I vote everyday that Jesus Christ be made president, senate and house. This will never happen with men. Men are evil. Satan is the God of this world. That isn't going to change until Jesus rules the nations with a rod of Iron. Even then those he rules will rise up and reject him under the influence of Satan in the end. But there is coming a time, a new heaven and a new Earth wherein righteousness dwells. All who are there are in voluntary submission to the authority of Jesus Christ. This will be the only time this ever happens.

I love like God loves. I speak the truth in love with hope that some may turn for their wicked ways and false Christs to follow the true Jesus.

You mentioned Jesus going into the temple and overturning the tables. This is exactly what we do when we speak to others about the evil heresies they follow. He came in and removed that which is false then sat and taught the people truth. Jesus did not speak evil of his rulers as that would have been sin. Are you accusing him of sin?

By the way, the Magna Carta, a legal document, prepared the way for the legal resistance of England's rule as I understand it. It wasn't sedition which is sin. England had broken a covenant agreement which is sin. So I don't see a problem with the formation of an independent America from that view point. But there is the idea that they overthrew the Indians so that they could inhabit the land. This is not Gods people on their way to the promise land removing the people of the land. Have you ever thought about what John the Baptist said to the soldiers when the asked what shall we do? His reply "Do violence to no man". Meditate on that for awhile. What if our American soldiers were to abide by that command?


So who is this Jesus of the bible?

He is the most amazing man who ever lived. He is one that I will live and die for. He is one that is my Idol and I want to be just like him in everything he does. He did not come to bring peace on Earth but a sword. He came to bring peace between God and those men who would turn to him. I shall do the same. I have the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. I shall use it to oppose heresy, homosexuality, abortion, ecumenicism and any other sin that is under the sun.

Can't we all just get along? Sure, just as soon as everyone bows the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ and takes up there cross denying themselves. As the writer of Hebrews stated "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood". Will we?

In the Love of the Risen Savior,

Gary

 

[jiggyfly]

I hate America and what it stands for. And the God I worship does too. America is evil and always has been. America has always been about freedom for the people, NOT following the Creator who created them. This is not the goal.


Gary

Why don't you just move to another country then?

 

[gdemoss]

Why don't you just move to another country then?

It isn't about me. It is about God and being a witness for Christ in a country that hates God when they claim to trust him. I used to love the ideals of this country and what it stood for but I became a follower of Jesus Christ and learned that this country is contrary to him.

 

[Peace Seeker]

You mention things like who would have sent the missionaries. I must ask how many true missionaries have been sent? How many false? Is America any better of a place because there is no persecution? God said if I was willing to live Godly in Christ Jesus I would absolutely suffer persecution. Where are the true followers of Christ in America that are receiving this promise?

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time seeing any love in the way you talk to people, including me.

Please remember that the fruit of the Spirit includes : love, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness and gentleness!

While I have disagreed with you, I haven't TALKED DOWN to you, like you've been doing all over me.
Is there anyone you don't point the finger at or attack? I mean, c'mon already! Now the early Christian missionaries are evil?

 

[gdemoss]

Unfortunately, I am having a hard time seeing any love in the way you talk to people, including me.

Every word Jesus spoke was in love. Jesus is love. Jesus lovingly called the Pharisees hypocrites. Lovingly called Peter Satan. Early Christians gave each other a kiss of love. Paul sacrificed himself on the service of others faith and said 'the more I love you the less I am loved'

What is love to you?

Please remember that the fruit of the Spirit includes : love, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness and gentleness!

most of these qualities are difficult to see in 'text'. You do not know my demeanor when I am typing the things I type. Nor I you.

While I have disagreed with you, I haven't TALKED DOWN to you, like you've been doing all over me.

Where have I talked down to you? The scripture says that you are to come to me if I have offended you and you have. I need to see what it is that you feel I have done so that I understand if I need to repent.

Is there anyone you don't point the finger at or attack? I mean, c'mon already! Now the early Christian missionaries are evil?

How do you get that I said the early Christian missionaries are evil? I stated questions. How many good? How many evil? This is not to point fingers at missionaries and call them all evil it is to show that America itself as a nation did not distinguish between the good and the evil. The good missionaries were in fact good and the evil ones evil. My point is America accepts them both.

I am only after the truth and exposing fraud. If I am like Jesus I expect my good to be evil spoken of. Jesus said that we should beware when people speak good of us as the fathers did to the false prophets.

What is 'agape' love to you? Peace Seeker, what does it look like to seek peace God's way?

I pray that God blesses you with all spiritual understanding in our Lord Jesus Christ

Gary