"Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and loving gay marriages"

[TaylorDonBarret]

Many people make this argument - that Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and their loving monogamous relationships (""gay marriage"").

But is that true? Would Paul have had any concept of this supposedly "modern" phenomena?

Well, if you do a quick google search on the history of "same-sex unions" you will find out some interesting things.

It was actually quite prolific in ancient rome (the same ancient rome that Paul wrote to when he condemned homosexuality).

At least two of the Roman Emperors were in same-sex unions; and in fact, thirteen out of the first fourteen Roman Emperors held to be bisexual or exclusively homosexual. The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy to replace his young teenage concubine whom he had killed named Sporus in a very public ceremony... with all the solemnities of matrimony, and lived with him as his spouse A friend gave the "bride" away "as required by law." The marriage was celebrated separately in both Greece and Rome in extravagant public ceremonies. The Child Emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria namedHierocles, as his husband. He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.

 

[kvnchrist]

Many people make this argument - that Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and their loving monogamous relationships (""gay marriage"").

This whole argument that the far left constantly throws out shows their utter contempt for God. They consider God more of a concept by delusional people than anything else, so that those in biblical times would not have his guidance on any subject, including gay people. They never even notice that any form of sexual relationship can take up the same arguement no matter how destructive and they too will go after anyone standing on morale grounds as a hater. It seems freedom of speech is under attack with the same enthusiasm as The Nazi's went after the Jews, but make that point to them and they will come after you all the quicker.

Critical thinking in this country is falling to the brain dead emotionalism. Like a zombie apocalypse they send wave after wave after opposing views and those who speak out are inundated by those who are more intimidated by being called names than they are of God.

The people in this quote have a simple argument that can be made by anybody, anywhere are completely ignores everything other than that those not engaging in a certain practice can never fully understand the feeling of those who do practice it and this is a very base argument that a schizophrenic can easily make. This is hedonistic and self centered

 

[RJ]

Many people make this argument - that Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and their loving monogamous relationships (""gay marriage"").

But is that true? Would Paul have had any concept of this supposedly "modern" phenomena?

Well, if you do a quick google search on the history of "same-sex unions" you will find out some interesting things.

It was actually quite prolific in ancient rome (the same ancient rome that Paul wrote to when he condemned homosexuality).

At least two of the Roman Emperors were in same-sex unions; and in fact, thirteen out of the first fourteen Roman Emperors held to be bisexual or exclusively homosexual. The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy to replace his young teenage concubine whom he had killed named Sporus in a very public ceremony... with all the solemnities of matrimony, and lived with him as his spouse A friend gave the "bride" away "as required by law." The marriage was celebrated separately in both Greece and Rome in extravagant public ceremonies. The Child Emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria namedHierocles, as his husband. He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.

• I don't think there is that much difference with homosexuality today as it was in Paul's time. In fact, in many circles of pagan or secular life in Paul's day, it was even much more accepted.
• God hasn't changed and homosexuality is just as much of sin now as it was then.
• In our current times, homosexuality is becoming, again, more and more acceptable by the Liberal / Progressive left and not only secularly but unfortunately in the Liberal / Progressive church. In many ways, the anti-Christian church!
• In the main sense, there is not much difference. The main problem is not so much the sinner because we are called to love them. The main problem is the unrepentant, willful sin, which. like any sin, we true Christians can ever accept!

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

you both make great points.

I posted this thread mainly to inform my brothers and sisters of some information that can be used to rebuke someone in need of rebuking. we are often faced with people who want to argue against our faith and it can help to know the facts. i know for myself, when someone argued: "but Paul didnt have any concept of modern homosexuality!!" I had to stop and think about it. Did Paul have any concept of it? And so I did my due diligence and found out this information.

 

[ph8th]

Many people make this argument - that Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and their loving monogamous relationships (""gay marriage"").

But is that true? Would Paul have had any concept of this supposedly "modern" phenomena?

Well, if you do a quick google search on the history of "same-sex unions" you will find out some interesting things.

It was actually quite prolific in ancient rome (the same ancient rome that Paul wrote to when he condemned homosexuality).

At least two of the Roman Emperors were in same-sex unions; and in fact, thirteen out of the first fourteen Roman Emperors held to be bisexual or exclusively homosexual. The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy to replace his young teenage concubine whom he had killed named Sporus in a very public ceremony... with all the solemnities of matrimony, and lived with him as his spouse A friend gave the "bride" away "as required by law." The marriage was celebrated separately in both Greece and Rome in extravagant public ceremonies. The Child Emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria namedHierocles, as his husband. He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.

Scripture was God breathed so Paul did not say any thing ..... It was God condemning homosexuality. My God is never changing, the same yesterday today and forever. So should there be a question on the matter remember Sodom and Gomorrah.

peter

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Yes i agree scripture is God breathed, thats what the bible says. I was only using a human argument in order to show that even back then people did know about this idea of "gay marriage" and gay monogamy.

However i do not particularly care for the use of sodom and gomorrha as examples in this case. both those cities had far more wickedness than just homosexuality going on and its not really accurate to say that they were destroyed for homosexuality alone - it was because of other stuff as well.

 

[ph8th]

However i do not particularly care for the use of sodom and gomorrha as examples in this case. both those cities had far more wickedness than just homosexuality going on and its not really accurate to say that they were destroyed for homosexuality alone - it was because of other stuff as well.

I have heard the argument they were not hospitable. Whether you care for it or not it is even supported by the old and new testament

2 Peter 6-8 (NASB)

6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),

Jude 1- 6 (NASB)

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after a]">[a]strange flesh, are exhibited as an b]">[b]example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Regardless of the debate, regardless who might feel the one Gods answer remains the same

Revelation 21:27 (NASB)

27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those a]">[a]whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Just out of curiosity why did you bring this topic to the board?

peter

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Just out of curiosity why did you bring this topic to the board?

to introduce information regarding homosexuality in ancient rome - namely, the fact that "gay marriage" was known about and practiced and therefore Paul would certainly have had knowledge of the concept. I was confronted with an argument that basically said that "Paul did not know about modern 'gay marriage' (loving, monogamous relationships between people of the same sex); and therefore the condemnations he gave against homosexuality in the new testament could not be considered condemnations of modern homosexuality as we know it today. So I did some research to find out if that was true - could Paul have known about 'modern' homosexuality? Did he ? and I found this information and thought it would be good to share it with my brothers and sisters so that they can be equipped to rebut that argument if they are ever faced with it.

 

[mecco]

Thanks for the history lesson, TaylorDonBarret! In a Bible Study on 1 cor. On learned that Corinth was quite "free" sexually, that the incedent in 1 cor 5 was socially normal at the time. (At least, for Gentiles, not for Jews.)
In modern society it is socially normal to divorce and remarry. Christians don't reallyconsider marriage holy, and have made a mockery of a church wedding. Personally, I don't think we should raise our voices about others sexual sins until we can face up to our own.
But what does God think about all this?
I know He is at work in each one, to will and to do His good pleasure. I know that Jesus will judge our deeds, and reward us accordingly. Some things I just have to let Him take care of.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

well there is a difference between a repentant sinner who fails to meet perfection and the sinner who is unrepentant and refuses to accept God's judgement concerning their sin.
the first variety is saved, the second is not.

 

[kjw47]

Many seem to think homosexuals are targeted by Christians--but at 1Corinthians 6:9-11--- it teaches against fornication( man and woman having sexual relations and not being married--adultery--cheating on ones spouse) plus many other things there condemned by God and it clearly teaches---will not enter Gods kingdom. it mentions drunkenness( drug addiction would be included as well) thieves, the greedy, idolaters, revilers, extortioners, it teaches--that is what some of you were( past tense) a true follower has put these things in their past.( true repentence)-- yet many of these are being told they are saved or born again by teachers who do not have Jesus as their head.
Homosexuality has been around for a long time, Paul understood it very well--God used Sodom and Gommorah as an example. he will not accept any of the thiongs mentioned at 1Cor 6:9-11 nor Galations 5:19-21--but the majority on earth practice these things.

 

[B-A-C]

Lev 18:22; 'You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

Lev 20:13; 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1 Tim 1:9; realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Surely homosexuality wasn't the only sin in Sodom and Gomorrah, but it is the example of sin we are given ( Gen 19:5; ) so possibly it was the most prevalent.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Hekuran]

later as a groom Nero married a young boy to replace his young teenage concubine whom he had killed named Sporus in a very public ceremony

I don't think that the history extract proves your point. Marrying a young boy to replace a teenage boy you've just had killed does not sound much like any modern understanding of healthy marriage - heterosexual or homosexual.

I'm not wanting to argue with you, but I imagine that if you took this to a supporter of gay marriage, they'd be able to knock it down fairly easily.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I don't think that the history extract proves your point. Marrying a young boy to replace a teenage boy you've just had killed does not sound much like any modern understanding of healthy marriage - heterosexual or homosexual.

I'm not wanting to argue with you, but I imagine that if you took this to a supporter of gay marriage, they'd be able to knock it down fairly easily.

Numerous examples of same-sex unions among peers (not age-structured) are found in Ancient Greek writings. Famous Greek couples in same-sex relationships include Harmodius and Aristogiton, Pelopidas and Epaminondas and Alexander and Bogoas.

 

[Hekuran]

Ok Thanks. That sounds a stronger collection of examples

 

[B-A-C]

Not exactly sure Nero would be the best role model in any case. He had thousands of Christians killed.
Some say by today's standards, he would be considered a psychopath.

 

[ph8th]

I think who is and who was is irrelevant.......none of the people listed decide where you spend eternity. Like a kid standing in front of his parent using the defense that Johnny does it. Our God is never changing nor has His stand on homosexuality has not changed. Hitler, Ganges Khan, Saddam Hussein, they all did this so ISIS is not doing anything bad.
Our standard as Christians is not the world but Jesus.
Should you look to the world to justify your sins then God will judge you as He does the world

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Our God is never changing nor has His stand on homosexuality has not changed.....
Our standard as Christians is not the world but Jesus.

Yes amen @ph8th

Homosexuality is and always has been an abomination to the Lord
Looking at the history of this abomination is pointless and meaningless, it doesnt change the word of the Lord

Looking to Christ and His truth is all that matters
And praise the Lord He is able to deliver and save all who come to Him from any sin including homosexuality

There are some wonderful testimonies of people who have been saved and delivered from homosexuality.....praise the Lord *
Ever heard a testimony of someone delivered from heterosexuality into homosexuallity..... I think not

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8


* just an example ... A Lesbian's Deliverance - US - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

 

[ph8th]

Yes amen @ph8th


Looking to Christ and His truth is all that matters
And praise the Lord He is able to deliver and save all who come to Him from any sin including homosexuality

There are some wonderful testimonies of people who have been saved and delivered from homosexuality.....praise the Lord *
Ever heard a testimony of someone delivered from heterosexuality into homosexuality..... I think not

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8


* just an example ... A Lesbian's Deliverance - US - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

Our nature = Flesh nature = Adamic nature is the very nature that points to God and says it was that woman YOU gave me! The very nature points to others sin to justify their own. I know this nature well because it used to rule my life. No I have not arrived..........Over time I recognized and submitted to the conviction that before I was set on my way regardless. I feel like this post would not have been created if someone were not wrestling with God about sin they were refusing to let go. I have done this very thing with sin in my life. To submerse your self in such sin will leave you miserable and separated from God. He does love us but His word is true as His yes is yes and His no is no.

.
A love meant to be

I don’t want to live my life alone
Lord who do you have for me?
I found her
Built my world around her
My love for her filled my heart
My love for her grew stronger
I swore we’d never part
There was something wrong
There was an aching in my heart
For the love of another
It was tearing me apart
Lord I am calling out to You
Forgive me for breaking Your heart
Lord can we go from here
Can we start a new
From this time
and
forever
All I want is You

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Many people make this argument - that Paul did not know about modern homosexuals and their loving monogamous relationships (""gay marriage"").

But is that true? Would Paul have had any concept of this supposedly "modern" phenomena?

Well, if you do a quick google search on the history of "same-sex unions" you will find out some interesting things.

It was actually quite prolific in ancient rome (the same ancient rome that Paul wrote to when he condemned homosexuality).

At least two of the Roman Emperors were in same-sex unions; and in fact, thirteen out of the first fourteen Roman Emperors held to be bisexual or exclusively homosexual. The first Roman emperor to have married a man was Nero, who is reported to have married two other men on different occasions. First with one of his freedman, Pythagoras, to whom Nero took the role of the bride, and later as a groom Nero married a young boy to replace his young teenage concubine whom he had killed named Sporus in a very public ceremony... with all the solemnities of matrimony, and lived with him as his spouse A friend gave the "bride" away "as required by law." The marriage was celebrated separately in both Greece and Rome in extravagant public ceremonies. The Child Emperor Elagabalus referred to his chariot driver, a blond slave from Caria namedHierocles, as his husband. He also married an athlete named Zoticus in a lavish public ceremony in Rome amidst the rejoicings of the citizens.

NO But God did and seeing how Paul was influenced by the Holy Spirit to write what he did then I would it means what it says.
Other wise you would have to say the the Holy spirit had no clue which only speaks what God says and that would mean God had no clue..... !! God knew..........