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PERFECTIONISM FROM SIN

Ivar,
I know you've read my posts, so you know I believe in accountability. Everyone that says their saved is telling the truth. They are saved from sin. Does this mean they will obtain Eternal Life?

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me (believers in Christ) that bears not fruit (unfruitfulness) he (the Father, the Husbandman) takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit (the character of Christ).

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned (unbelievers cannot be withered because they are already withered and dead. Only a believer in Christ can wither, because they were alive in Christ).

The only way a man can abide in Christ is if they keep His word 30,60 or 100 percent. If a man does not abide in God's word, Jesus Christ's information, is not abiding in Christ; because they are not walking accordingly; though they are in the body of Christ.
 
@regibassman57

I would not consider myself saved unless i know for certain I will have eternal life. In essence I hope I will be saved but I do not see myself knowing for 100% certainty unless on my deathbed or have given up the ghost.
Will I fall away in the ninth hour? I hope not. Will I repent? I hope so. Will I endure until the end? I hope so.
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In order for me to ensure this hope/faith or increase my chances; Their is a light burden and easy yoke of Christ that i must take up and carry to the end.
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Because straight is the gate; I do not think that everyone is telling the truth or knows for certain if they will be saved. We all want to be saved. We all want the best possible outcome. However whether we obtain that outcome or not is a different story. At the same time even though I do not know I cannot say for certain when it comes to individuals.
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Lastly if you do not put an @ before my name like " @Ivar " then i may overlook your message directed to me. Even though i am usually on top of posts
 
Ivar said:
I would not consider myself saved unless i know for certain I will have eternal life
Click to expand...

would considered yourself born again? have you been changed from the old to the new yet, has your life been so drastically changed that the new is different then the old???
 
Dave M said:
would considered yourself born again? have you been changed from the old to the new yet, has your life been so drastically changed that the new is different then the old???
Click to expand...

@Dave M

Good Question. Compared to my old self I do have stronger moral convictions.
I was always a pretty meek person to begin with though.
I would hope i am; however I do suspect that to be a life process and life journey; one of which i am currently still living.
It did cause me to leave the military in which i had a comfortable and lucrative life; though stressful.
i no longer have that initial zeal I once had coming into the scriptures though.

__________?______
Now once i live my life according to the volume of the book and take up the easy yoke and light burden of Christ then i would have faith that i am. Those that are accustomed to do good will do good. However if lust is concieved then sin more than likely awaits.

Heb 11:1 comes to mind; also James 1:15 when it talks about lust
 
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it is very interesting to see everyone journey coming to Christ. For me I never new I was lost until I was saved. and now I see God doing so many wonders in my life I know he has me.

What do you think about this scripture ?? I always thought it meant when we become born again as in now the present time. I do realize there are other scripture we could post that suggest that being saved is at a later time. For me the change in a person is a done deal, and if a person falls away then they really were not changed. Just my thoughts I certainly dont claim to be a all knowing authority. And try to be respectful of those with different thoughts.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
 
@Dave M

Three verses came to mind with out me even reading the the entire chapter; "which i will".

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Mainly because I don't believe in anything without Rules of Engagement, Code of Conduct, Standard Operating Procedure, level of accountability, etc.
In other words no 100% free lunch; unless infant. Afterwards I need to work or use my legs. So that is the mindset that I am coming from as I analyze the entire chapter of the verse you have given.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The Father loves those that love him and will show love and expect love in return.

How? Why?

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

A parent often loves an obedient child but is grieved by a disobedient one. A disobedient child might even be disowned at some point after some form of chastisement, correction, and olive branch given.

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John 10 :28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
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With all that Being said as I read the chapter of John 10 to get a further possible understanding of John 10:28 ; Who is them?; These scriptures came to mind "in order as i contextualized/ tried to discern,etc"

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. "So the may or may not enter"?
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John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: " The sheep that hear and follow are given eternal life"

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. " The sheep that hear and follow are un-pluckable"
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The three verses that came to my mind prior to reading the chapter of that verse all seem to go hand in hand.
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You asked me what I thought about John 10:28;

1. Proverbs 8:17
2. Matthew 7:12
3. 1 John 5:3
4. Who is them?
5. John 10:9 "those who may enter"
6 John 10:27 "those who follow and hear are his sheep and are them"
7. John 10:29 "those who follow and hear are un-pluckable"
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@Ivar,
Faith is in your hands; therefore, your life is in your hands (as you believe). The warfare is in your body, in your mind and you see it everyday. The only thing that is trying to keep you from obtaining and possessing the manifestation of life is "Emotion."

How you feel daily and how you handle those feelings daily, will determine your life. This is what Paul struggled with in Romans 7. You have the power over what you feel. That is the "ONLY" thing trying to keep you from obtaining and believing it's your right now. That's called doubt. Doubt weaken your ability to endure.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law (force, influence or will) in my body, warring against the law (God's word or my will) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Satan's influence or will) which is in my body.

God has given you the power over Satan. The only way a believe cannot win, is if they do not know who or what they are fighting against.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 
@To all willing to reply:
I believe this is a very important reseach in scripture. Quesiton: We as believers are taught, we are fully saved from the "penalty" of sin, but not from the fulness of sin?

Where can this be confired in scripture?
There are some sharp believers on this site, so the answer is in the heart of someone!
 
We are saved from Hell, but we are still disciplined, and we can still loose rewards. The more I grow the more I hate sin and only want to please my heavenly father.

I do not know what you mean by fullness of sin, we have a sin nature, when we are born again we still have it a sin nature but now we have power over it through Jesus Christ and the freedom to say no to sin
 
@Dave M.
Thanks Dave for your reply:
What I meant by the “fullness of sin” is, some people believe we’ve been saved from sin, but only “partially” because we are still in the flesh. Actually it is similar to what your saying. I was asking for “scriptural references” that teaches believers are saved from the penalty and sin, but not actual sin at this time. Either we are saved from sin or we are not. Either Jesus spoke it to be or He lied?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (this is talking about Christ's crucifixion.)

For example: I truly do not understand; if scripture specifically said:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name JESUS: for he shall “save” his people from their “sins.”

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes "you were healed."

How can a person justify saying, "Jesus saved us from the punishment of sin?" after reading Matthew 1:21. And how can a person believe it after reading, "they have been "healed" from sins (plural); and they were not even born when Jesus died. Where in scripture can I confirm a statement like this?

You said, “we are saved from Hell, but we are still discipline.” I understand the point of your reasoning, but it’s not scripturally sound. This is why I need scripture.

You said, “we have a sin nature?” I would like to see scripture to prove what your saying.
 
@Dave M,
It's almost like saying, God gave us emotions, but then tells us, Let not your heart be troubled because I've given you Peace (John 14:27). Troubled means "agitated." If God gave us emotions, He's not going to tell us, Let not your hearts be trouble. Any level of anger, sadeness, fear or lust agitates/troubles a person's mind. Makes no sense.

Either Christ saved us from sin or He did not.
 
he has a great way with words for the truth

Curtis
Jun 23, 2018 #1
Sinless Perfection?

from brother @Curtis
Sinless Perfection?


There is a growing number of people who associate themselves with the body of Christ, who say they are sinless in this life! The Bible does not teach this anywhere. The Apostle John tells us.......

1Jn 1:8 IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, and the truth is not in us.

The first thing scripture reveals within a person is their sinfulness. We are sinners saved by grace, but when truth is reveled inside the heart of man he finds his sinfulness is much worse then what he originally thought! Christians are not “sinless”, but we certainly should sin less!

The Apostle Paul tells us....

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for BY THE LAW IS THE KNOWLEDGE OF SIN.

Rom 7:18 For I KNOW THAT IN ME (THAT IS, IN MY FLESH,) DWELLETH NO GOOD THING: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH:

The human physical body is so corrupted with sin (in our flesh) it can NOT be fixed, it must be changed. That change will not take place until Jesus returns. As it is written.....

1Co 15:53 For THIS CORRUPTIBLE MUST PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So WHEN THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL HAVE PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

We are told.......

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 LET NOT SIN THEREFORE REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but IF YE THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY, YE SHALL LIVE.

Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a Christian “mortify the deeds of his body”. Keeping the flesh under does not make sin disappear in the flesh it only prevents sin from controlling that person.

The scripture that these “sinless” people claim is this.......

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST HIS SON CLEANSETH US FROM ALL SIN.

They say, “See Curtis, we can be sinless because the blood of Jesus Christ is cleansing us from ALL sin if we walk in the light!!

That kind of interpretation of scripture is in major error, because, if we are sinless while walking in the light we would NOT need the blood of Jesus to cleanse from any kind of sin!!

Light refers to knowledge, and understanding of God. Understanding is Wisdom that comes from God when he reveals himself to any being. “The entrance of his Word gives light”. “In his light we see light”. “God is light”

Walking in light is walking in your understanding of God himself. This understanding does not happen all at once as it takes time to come into the understanding of God as he teaches us his ways. I walk in God's light according to my understanding he has given unto me. There are areas I do not yet have understanding in.

I am required from God to walk in what I know now, not in what I am yet to learn in the future. We all sin in areas that we do not yet know, and this is were the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. FOR UNTO WHOMSOEVER MUCH IS GIVEN, OF HIM SHALL BE MUCH REQUIRED: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Every single born again Christian is chastise for sins he commits, and does not confess to his Father. God does not chastise us when we do good, only when we sin, and not confess them to him.

Heb 12:6 FOR THE LORD DISCIPLINES THE ONE HE LOVES, and CHASTISES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES.”
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 IF YOU ARE LEFT WITHOUT DISCIPLINE, IN WHICH ALL HAVE PARTICIPATED, THEN YOU ARE ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN AND NOT SONS.

No Christian is sinless in this life, and if we say we are without sin we have “deceived” our self's, if we ever say we have not sinned we are calling God a liar, and his truth never was in us.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US.
 
@Dave M,
You continue to present scripture, but you never even "attempt to answer" the question i've asked. I've told you I would reconsider my postition if you can answer this question. How can I go forward believing your understanding if you won't even satisfy what you know I have a question about. I've asked for someone to answer the question: "where in scripture does it teach that a believer has been saved from the penalty of sin, but not from sins." You believe the penalty for sin has been completely taken away and you stand on that.

No one denies they do unfruitful works; works that are wrong. How did Adam sin? Because God imputed sin unto Adam. Is God imputing sin unto us? No! Do I in my understanding "repent" and turn away from my wrong actions? Yes!

Do you believe that the wages of sin is death? I'm sure you did, but you believe that God payed the penalty over 2000 years ago. Can a believer still be punished for their sins in your eyes? Yes! Does this seem contradictory? Yes. It's all how you understand it.
I believe Jesus took away the penalty for sin, because He took away sin. If the cause of the penalty has not been taken away, they the penalty has not been taken away.
 
regibassman57 said:
where in scripture does it teach that a believer has been saved from the penalty of sin, but not from sins.
Click to expand...

"If Jesus paid the price for our sin, why do we still suffer the consequences of our sin?"

Answer: The Bible gives the good news that Jesus paid the price for our sin (Ephesians 1:7), yet in many ways we still suffer the consequences of our sins. For example, a drug dealer may become a Christian in prison, but that doesn’t mean he will be released from prison the next day—he will still experience the consequences of his past sin. A born-again Christian who falls into adultery may lose his family, his career, etc.—even after he confesses and forsakes his sin, the consequences of his sin remain. Coming to Christ does not erase the temporal effects of sin; rather, our salvation guarantees that we will not face the eternal consequences of sin.

The consequence of sin is death (Romans 6:23a). As sinners, we deserve to be eternally separated from God and His holiness. On the cross Christ paid the penalty of our sin with His own blood. He who knew no sin was made to be sin on our behalf (2 Corinthians 5:21). On the basis of Christ’s perfect sacrifice, those who believe are no longer under God’s condemnation (Romans 8:1).

It’s important to understand that, when the believer in Christ experiences consequences for sin, it is notbecause he is under God’s condemnation (Romans 8:1), His wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), or His retribution (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Believers are under God’s grace (Romans 6:15). Jesus took the wrath of God upon Himself (Isaiah 53:10). Sin’s consequences still experienced by believers could be classified in one of these ways:

Universal consequences. Some of sin’s consequences are experienced perpetually by every human being on earth, because we are all children of Adam. We all have weeds growing in our gardens, we all face natural disasters, we all get sick and grow old, and we all eventually die physically (Romans 5:12). As sinners living in a sinful world, there’s no avoiding these consequences of original sin.

Natural consequences. We live in a world of cause and effect, where the law of sowing and reaping is in full effect. Some of sin’s consequences are built-in and practically guaranteed, no matter if the sinner is saved or unsaved. The Bible warns that sexual immorality is a sin committed against one’s own body (1 Corinthians 6:18). “Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned?” (Proverbs 6:27). If you steal something, you should expect to get caught and face the natural consequences that follow the sin of theft. If you resist arrest when you get caught, you pile on more consequences. Sowing and reaping.

Instructional consequences. Very likely, God allows some of sin’s consequences to remain in our lives to teach us the heinous nature of sin and to remind us to depend upon God’s grace. Sin is a serious enough problem for God to have sent His Son into the world to die. We dare not take sin lightly. In the face of sin’s consequences, we humble ourselves and seek God’s kingdom and righteousness all the more (see Matthew 6:33). When Ananias and Sapphira were disciplined for their sin, it was instructive for the church: “Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events” (Acts 5:11). See also 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Timothy 1:20.

Disciplinary consequences. Some of sin’s consequences are the result of God’s treating us as a father should his children. There’s a difference between a penalty for sin and discipline for sin. As God’s children, we experience discipline designed to guide us back to the right path. “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son” (Hebrews 12:5–6; cf. Proverbs 3:11–12). Note how many of God’s children undergo discipline: “everyone” (Hebrews 12:8). We are all wayward at times. God’s purpose in allowing us to experience disciplinary consequences of sin, true to His nature, is perfect: “God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness” (Hebrews 12:10).

The church of Corinth provides an example of Christians facing the disciplinary consequences of their sin: in partaking of the Lord’s Table in an unworthy manner, they brought God’s displeasure: “That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep” (1 Corinthians 11:30). We see similar disciplinary action taken in 2 Samuel 12. Even after David confessed his sin and was forgiven, God allowed certain consequences to befall David and his household (verses 11–14).

God allows us to experience some of the temporal consequences of sin to show His love for us. If God never disciplined His straying children, He would not be a good Father. If we were never disciplined or never suffered the consequences for our wrong action, we would never learn right from wrong. We tend to learn from our mistakes more readily than we learn from our successes.

Praise the Lord for His goodness. He allows us to experience the temporal consequences of sin (for our own good). But He has saved us from the eternal consequences of sin. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins so we will never experience the second death, which is the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14). Believers in Christ are promised that the curse and consequences of sin will be completely removed one day, and “nothing will hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain” (Isaiah 11:9, NLT).

source
If Jesus paid the price for our sin, why do we still suffer the consequences of our sin?
 
Why are there still consequences for sin if Jesus already paid the price?
Jesus' death on the cross paid the price for sin. Romans 6:23 makes it clear that eternal life is a free gift to all who believe. But why do we still suffer the consequences of sin?

As a loving Father, God disciplines those He loves. Hebrews 12:7 teaches, "It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?" The fact that Christians suffer consequences for sin helps show God's love for us as a father.

Second, there is a difference between forgiveness of sin and the consequences of sin. God forgives our wrongs, yet the sins we commit often naturally lead to negative consequences. For example, if a person robs a bank, God can forgive him for the sin, but he may still face consequences, including arrest and jail time.

Third, the consequences of sin are part of what the Bible teaches concerning reaping and sowing. Galatians 6:7-9 shares, "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up." Those who do wrong suffer the consequences for those wrongs. This keeps God from being mocked and highlights the importance of doing good as a believer.

Fourth, suffering the consequences of our sin points us back to God. For example, in Luke 15, Jesus told the story of the lost son. This son wasted his father's inheritance in selfish pursuits until he was out of money and his work consisted of tending pigs.

Facing the consequences of his actions, he was reminded of the goodness of his father. This caused him to return home in hopes to become a servant, yet his father embraced him in celebration. God likewise uses the consequences of our sins to draw us back to the Father.

The Bible frequently teaches that believers are forgiven of sins, yet sin continues to yield negative consequences in this life. Yet God even uses these negative consequences in many ways. These ways can include discipline, enduring the natural consequences of sin, to keep God from being mocked, and to draw people back toward Him.

source
Why are there still consequences for sin if Jesus already paid the price?
 
@Dave,
Everything that I read had to do with the consequences of sins. I don't think that was the question I asked.

The question is not, "did Jesus pay the penalty for sin." I know Jesus paid the penalty for sin; but the penalty and consequences for sin is not sin. Sin is the act, and the consequence for the act is the retribution.

I asked, where in scripture does it teach Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but not the sins?

These are only a few things Jesus has done according to scripture. It says nothing about punishment or penalty. It only talks about the “CAUSE” of the penalty. Scripture teaches us what Jesus did with the cause; which is sin. Show me that Jesus took away the penalty without taking away the “CAUSE” “SIN.”

Jesus died for our sins and has taken sin away.
Jesus crucified sin on the cross.
Jesus blotted out our sins.
Jesus condemned sins.
Jesus cleansed us from our sins.
Jesus circumcised our sins of the flesh in the body.
Jesus sanctified us from sins once for all.
Jesus justified us from sins.

This is not a difficult question and I know from reading that scripture is plain and clear on what it says about sin.

I know that I have proven my point with scriptures. I don't think you've proven that Jesus took away the punishment for sin but He did not take away sin. You have not given me "ANY SCRIPTURES" proving your point. You have given me scripture on the penalty being taken away, but we agree on that.
 
the punishment and the penalty would be the same thing death,

sound like you just looking for a way to justify a person who keeps on sinning, sin is sin no matter who commits it, if you dont get that I am exhausted trying to explain it to you. Blessings
 
@Dave M,
I believe the punishment “for sin” has already been carried out through Jesus’ death. And everyone that is an unbeliever is dead and condemned already in God’s mind. If they repent and come to Jesus their death sentence will be commuted.

Joh 3:18 He that believes on Jesus is not condemned: but he that “believes not” is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life “through” Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus has already paid the price for sin. Nowhere is the New Testament (that I’ve seen) does it teach Jesus will judge any man for their sins at His return. I believe scripture teaches an unbeliever has already been condemned and a believer has already been forgiven. So, when Jesus returns He’s coming to judge the world for their works; but not for their sin (Rev. 22:12; Mat. 16:27).

Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, “is therefore Christ the minister (attendant) of sin?” “God forbid.”

The only way sin could be dealt with is through sacrifices (Heb. 10:17, 18). Jesus finished His ministry for sin when He crucified sin on the cross. When a sinner comes to Jesus, they confess their sins and the “blood of Jesus Christ” will forgive and removes their sins one time (Heb. 7:25; Mat. 26:28; 1Joh. 1:9).

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time “without sin” unto salvation.

When it says, “without sin,” the meaning is “without dealing with sins.

You said: “the punishment and the penalty would be the same thing death,”

Only under the law if the penalty fit the crime. If a person didn’t offer a sacrifice for their sins, the penalty would be death. If they offered a sacrifice for their sins, they could still be punished in other ways; but they would not die.



 
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