PERFECTIONISM FROM SIN

[regibassman57]

@Dave,
You said" "sound like you just looking for a way to justify a person who keeps on sinning, sin is sin no matter who commits it, if you dont get that I am exhausted trying to explain it to you. Blessings"

You haven't presented "any" biblical scripture that teach Jesus did not take away "ALL sin." You have not explained anything on the question I've ask. You have not one time explained where scripture teaches that Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but He didn't take away sins. The only thing you've sent to me is Jesus took away the penalty or consequences of sins.

You are presenting that Jesus "took away the penalty" but your not presenting that Jesus did not take away all sins." This is your position of belief. You haven't proven this at all.

I've explained what my thoughts are on punishment at the day of judgment. I believe it's "unfruitful works" and you believe it's "sin." Whether it's unfruitful works or sin, anyone that does not keep God's commandments will be repayed for their works whether good or evil. We do not disagree on that.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dave,
You said:
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,"

Dave, don't put your heart in trying to convince me, let scripture speak for itself and for you. It seem you are just finding scriptures that say a person sins but you don't understand the backgroung and principle behind why their saying it.

Everyone in that time, after Jesus died for our sins, did not understand what we understand. The Spirit of God used them to write information of history. Did they understand what the mystery of Godliness was as we do? No. God said knowledge shall increase. We have far more understanding than they did. But God's word is still a mystery to many Christians. I don't believe any Christian understands all the mystery of Godliness in Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

Everyone in that time, after Jesus died for our sins, did not understand what we understand. The Spirit of God used them to write information of history. Did they understand what the mystery of Godliness was as we do? No. God said knowledge shall increase. We have far more understanding than they did. But God's word is still a mystery to many Christians. I don't believe any Christian understands all the mystery of Godliness in Christ.

More than likely the other way around. They had Jesus there with them. We don't.
As far as knowledge increasing.. Daniel wrote that in the old testament. Before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came.

 

[Dovegiven]

Jesus separated man from sin, the law could not do this. To be separated from something is to divide from or no longer be part of. We as believers are separate from sinners. We are not in the same category. Sinners sin, believer are incapable of sin; but they are not incapable of doing unfruitful works. Sin defiles which causes a person to be less than holy.

Christians who say they don't sin when they walk out of the light into darkness, even without notice of people around them, are liars. They deceive themselves. Self-deceived people don't know they are deceived since they can't warn themselves. It takes someone with open eyes to tell them.

1 John 1:5-10 (KJV)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

i John is instruction for the Church, Christians behaving around other Christians. Part of our ministry is to keep others in the light.
1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Moving on, perfection comes by various means. One is by suffering persecutions for the cause of Christ, which strengthens one's faith unless the sufferer deserves punishment. 1 Peter 5:10 (KJV)
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

We are made perfect a step at a time throughout our lives, chiefly as a group of believers banded together, yet not always so for individual apostles who faced many severe persecutions on their own, who were mightily perfected more than the churches they ministered to. Peter outlined a perfect path to perfection.

So should we assume we are immune to falling into unrighteousness (which is always sin)? Consider more steps for perfection ummarized next which should be read aloud and heeded very often:
2 Peter 1:5-11 (KJV)
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[regibassman57]

B-A-C ,
The things that Jesus told His disciples they had problems believing when He was with them. God works things in time for man, who does not live by miracles. The creation of the world in Genesis took time. Knowledge increases period; this is the way God created life. We build on the back of others. Knowledge increase in life in-general and God is no respect of person.

“Jesus became angered at the disciples because they didn't believe Him” through faith.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
I do not understand why you are seeking to discount what I say. I do not even have to interpret these scriptures; I only have to read them to understand them. Every person that is rejecting the scriptures I present is not rejecting me.

I’m not deceived because I’m saying what scripture says. If you desire to prove me wrong, do as I’ve asked others. It appears you and many other are saying I’m wrong. Show me scriptures that teach what you believe. “Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but He did not take away all sin.” You are not proving me wrong; you are proving what you believe to be true. Prove what you're saying instead of telling me I’m wrong. If you believe what you say prove it. We can go back and forth with scripture, but if you do as I've asked you should be able to me i've been using scripture wrong.

These scriptures below have more meaning to believers under the new covenant than they meant to David under the old. God is in a Believer’s hearts (was not in David’s or Israel) and He has said He would never leave a believer neither forsake them.

A believer will always have the light and always be in fellowship with God; Israel could not say this. Man cannot leave God, God leaves man for their sins. Under the Old Covenant God hid His face from man and not the other way around.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hides not from thee; but the night shines as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

You said: So should we assume we are immune to falling into unrighteousness (which is always sin)?

What does scripture say God said He would do?

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,

These are prophesies from Jeremiah 31 that are also spoken of in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:17. God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel; which is the Church of Christ; New Covenant believers.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for “I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

The Holy Ghost continues to prophesy through the prophets that God will not remember the people’s sins under the New Covenant once He has blotted their sins out.

Isa 43:25 I, even “I, am he that blots out thy transgressions” for mine own sake, and “will not remember thy sins.”

God is not blotting out man's sins for the sake of man, but God said He's doing it for His own sake. Once Jesus died and rose sending the Holy Ghost, John and Peter started preaching the message of repentance of sins. Again, for God's sake not mans.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and “be converted,” that “your sins may be blotted out,” when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

If God spoke these prophesies through the prophets and confirmed them through Peter and John that He would blot out believer’s sins why would a believer speak anything contrary to His word?

G1813 (blot out)
exaleiphō
From G1537 and G218; to smear out, that is, obliterate (erase tears, figuratively pardon sin): - blot out, wipe away.

 

[Dovegiven]

@Dovegiven,
I do not understand why you are seeking to discount what I say. I do not even have to interpret these scriptures; I only have to read them to understand them. Every person that is rejecting the scriptures I present is not rejecting me.

I’m not deceived because I’m saying what scripture says. If you desire to prove me wrong, do as I’ve asked others. It appears you and many other are saying I’m wrong. Show me scriptures that teach what you believe. “Jesus took away the penalty of sin, but He did not take away all sin.” You are not proving me wrong; you are proving what you believe to be true. Prove what you're saying instead of telling me I’m wrong. If you believe what you say prove it. We can go back and forth with scripture, but if you do as I've asked you should be able to me i've been using scripture wrong.

These scriptures below have more meaning to believers under the new covenant than they meant to David under the old. God is in a Believer’s hearts (was not in David’s or Israel) and He has said He would never leave a believer neither forsake them.

A believer will always have the light and always be in fellowship with God; Israel could not say this. Man cannot leave God, God leaves man for their sins. Under the Old Covenant God hid His face from man and not the other way around.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Psa 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hides not from thee; but the night shines as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

You said: So should we assume we are immune to falling into unrighteousness (which is always sin)?

What does scripture say God said He would do?

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I keep in mind a dominant hermeneutical need to regard context when applying any verse. Jeremiah announced that quoted in verse 12 to Israel, whose people had no then current way to be forgiven of sin, only covering them year to year. He revealed the promise of a completely new covenant designed for them in respect to promises made to Abraham. Indeed, the gospel was presented by Jesus to the divided nation, and a small part of them accepted His gospel. Even a few gentiles believed under further ministry of the apostles and disciples. But the people Jeremiah prophesied to failed to return to God, were taken into captivity, first the N. tribes, then south, exactly as foretold by the prophet. As a nation they had a short comeback until utterly failing at the hand of Rome decades after Calvary.

Jumping ahead centuries, after 7 years of practically only Israelites comprising the first Church, the gospel was formally delivered to the gentiles (via Cornelius by way of Peter) upon Israels' national rejection of the gospel, to this day. In the end times God will deliver that last generation of Jews who will realize the promise Jeremiah presented. Heb 8:12 reflects part of Paul's loving wooing of Israel by drawing common ground with them to understand the plan of salvation in terms of the old covenant. Meanwhile, Paul taught the model of the gospel with enough simplicity any Jew should have caught on. However, Peter admitted it was difficult to comprehend Paul's epistles, both being "Jews", and that remains a problem with many scholars still troubled that the book of Hebrews should not be in the canon, to their own destruction.

I also realize you are familiar with the dire warnings against apostates in Hebrews 8 and 10. Nobody can be an apostate unless having first been a believer. But more subtly than believing is even today people who adopt the gospel but reject the efficacy of the blood of Jesus to save. That results in readoption of requiring works to earn favor from God. That, for a Christian, amounts to trampling the blood of Christ, not limited to that one example. Many former Christians have fallen into various such religions, obviously through deception, both from deceivers, and self deception. So I disagree that God doesn't lose believers, but do believe scripture establishes that God will abandon those who abandon Him. I hope I misread your intent.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
You said:
I keep in mind a dominant hermeneutical need to regard context when applying any verse. Jeremiah announced that quoted in verse 12 to Israel, whose people had no then current way to be forgiven of sin, only covering them year to year.

I understand Israel could not take away sins and the blood of bulls and goats could only cover their sins. Jesus’ coming did take away the sins which the blood of bulls and goat could not. Through Jesus Christ’s blood we have an everlasting covenant of life for all man and not just Israel. This is the promise of Abraham being fulfilled through Christ.

My interpretation of Jeremiah 31 confirms the promise not just of Jeremiah, but of Abraham. Hebrew 8:6-12 shows the confirmation of this New Covenant promised. There are only two covenants.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

I’m only addressing what it seems you’re disagreements are with my post.

You said: “Meanwhile, Paul taught the model of the gospel with enough simplicity any Jew should have caught on.”

I agree with you that some aspect of the gospel is simplistic, but some is not understood without the Holy Ghost’s revelation. The subject of “sin” is an understanding that only the Holy Ghost can reveal through faith. It’s very simplistic after having the understanding. I mean the simplicity of understanding; “sins could not be taken away” as oppose to “sins were taken away” can only be revealed by the Holy Ghost. If a believer doesn’t walk in faith of what Christ has done, they will never understand what Christ has done. Any believer that doesn’t understand sin has been taken away is walking in the flesh and seeing their actions after the flesh and not after the spirit. As you said, Peter said some things are difficult to comprehend. It’s only difficult if we don’t walk by faith. God has told us He will give us the understanding.

As far as the apostate subject I believe a Christian can lose their salvation, so I don’t think I’m the person you’re addressing concerning that subject.