Pre-trib Rapture: A popular but false doctrine

[Bill]

PRETRIB Rapture VS VS POST TRIB simple to understand

Contrasts Between Comings

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a “translation or

resurrection coming” (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord

comes for His church, taking her to His Father’s house (John 14:3).


On the other hand, Christ’s Second Advent with His saints (the Church=Rev. 19)

descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His

Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences

between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position,

while other views are not able to comfortably account for such differences.


Paul speaks of the Rapture as a “mystery” (1 Cor. 15:51–54), that is,

The truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus

the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate

event. The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament.

(Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).


The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet

also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are

different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the

translation at the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to establish the

kingdom.



Rapture/Translation

1 Translation of all believers

2 Translated saints go to heaven

3 Earth not judged

4 Imminent, any-moment, signless does not need a sign

5 Not in the Old Testament

6 Believers only

7 Before the day of wrath

8 No reference to Satan

9 Christ comes for His own

10 He comes in the air

11 He claims His bride

12 Only His own see Him

13 Tribulation begins



2nd Coming/ Estab. Kingdom

1 No translation at all

2 Translated saints return to earth

3 Earth judged & righteousness

established

4 Follows definite predicted signs

including tribulation

5 Predicted often in Old Testament

6 Affects all men

7 Concluding the day of wrath

8 Satan bound

9 Christ comes with His own

10 He comes to the earth

11 He comes with His bride

12 Every eye shall see Him

13 Millennial Kingdom begins

Scripture concludes that these “contrasts should make it

evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in

character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom,

and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the

tribulation.

Both events mention clouds symbolizing a heavenly role in both, but

other differences demonstrate that these are two distinct events. At the

Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thes. 4:16); at the Second

Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). At the Rapture, the

Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all

people.

I wonder if the coming of the Two Witnesses will be considered such a mystery since everyone has figured them out already LOL

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I wonder if the coming of the Two Witnesses will be considered such a mystery since everyone has figured them out already LOL

Those two witnesses were prefigured in multiple instances at the eve of a doomsday. They were the two angels in Sodom, Moses and Aarom in Egypt, two spies in Jericho, and Joshua and Zerubbabel in the original prophecy of Zachariah, as they were called "two olive trees." Whoever these two witnesses are, it will be a repeating of history, only this time on a GLOBAL scale.

 

[Bill]

Those two witnesses were prefigured in multiple instances at the eve of a doomsday. They were the two angels in Sodom, Moses and Aarom in Egypt, two spies in Jericho, and Joshua and Zerubbabel in the original prophecy of Zachariah, as they were called "two olive trees." Whoever these two witnesses are, it will be a repeating of history, only this time on a GLOBAL scale.

That is pretty funny. Lol .

Not quite.

The two Angels were not prophets, nor are they the Golden Lampstands that stand before the Lord.

What the Witnesses are, specifically, Faith and the Law. These were embodied in Elijah and Moses.

Later in John the Baptist and Paul.

And they will come again in two more individuals.

Obviously, Elijah and Moses are not reincarnated. No such thing. But John the Baptist and Paul both had the fire of thr Holy Spirit in them. It will be true for yhe Two who are soon to come. Filled with the Fire of God.

Have you never understood what the Fire is that comes from the Witnesses mouths? It is the Word of God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That is pretty funny. Lol .

Not quite.

The two Angels were not prophets, nor are they the Golden Lampstands that stand before the Lord.

What the Witnesses are, specifically, Faith and the Law. These were embodied in Elijah and Moses.

Why can't they? They were with God when they appeared to Abraham and Sarah, and then they did exactly what the Two Witnesses will do - prophesying the imminent destruction, which, obviously, felt to deaf ears except Lot and his family. The Scripture never said it has to Elijah and Moses - or Paul and John, for that matter, this is just the orthodox teaching.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Later in John the Baptist and Paul.

And they will come again in two more individuals.

Obviously, Elijah and Moses are not reincarnated. No such thing. But John the Baptist and Paul both had the fire of thr Holy Spirit in them. It will be true for yhe Two who are soon to come. Filled with the Fire of God.

Have you never understood what the Fire is that comes from the Witnesses mouths? It is the Word of God.

I don't mean to disparage, but you gotta be cautious with this approach known as "spiritualizing" by assuming them as John and Paul preaching the Word of God without any Scriptural corroboration. There's no private interpretation of the Scripture (2 Peter 1:20), the Scripture interprets itself, a principle known as Sola Scriptura. If it doesn't, then there's usually a historical or cultural reference, which can be easily understood if you do some research, for example who the Pharisees, Sedducees, Zealots, Scribes were. Sometimes there's a scientific fact behind the text, for example, "He hangs the earth on nothing,"(Job 26:7) or "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jer. 1:5).

In the case of the Two Witnesses, there're one clear reference in Zechariah about the two witnesses being God's two olive trees, which represent two houses of Israel. In fact, the emblem of modern state of Israel is a picture of this vision - two olive branches at either side of a menorah, aka lampstand. Then there were several precedents in which two individuals played the same roles of the two witnesses in similar scenarios, all recorded in the OT, which I've listed. We'll never know exactly who they are until the day they rise and prophesy in Jerusalem, but at least we can get a clue from these OT precedents, as a tree is known by its fruits.

 

[Bill]

Why can't they? They were with God when they appeared to Abraham and Sarah, and then they did exactly what the Two Witnesses will do - prophesying the imminent destruction, which, obviously, felt to deaf ears except Lot and his family. The Scripture never said it has to Elijah and Moses - or Paul and John, for that matter, this is just the orthodox teaching.

It was not the "Witnesses" , who came to Abraham. One was the Lord, and the Two that went to fetch Lot were Angels.

Big difference between Angels and the "Two".

 

[Bill]

I don't mean to disparage, but you gotta be cautious with this approach known as "spiritualizing" by assuming them as John and Paul preaching the Word of God without any Scriptural corroboration. There's no private interpretation of the Scripture (2 Peter 1:20), the Scripture interprets itself, a principle known as Sola Scriptura. If it doesn't, then there's usually a historical or cultural reference, which can be easily understood if you do some research, for example who the Pharisees, Sedducees, Zealots, Scribes were. Sometimes there's a scientific fact behind the text, for example, "He hangs the earth on nothing,"(Job 26:7) or "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jer. 1:5).

In the case of the Two Witnesses, there're one clear reference in Zechariah about the two witnesses being God's two olive trees, which represent two houses of Israel. In fact, the emblem of modern state of Israel is a picture of this vision - two olive branches at either side of a menorah, aka lampstand. Then there were several precedents in which two individuals played the same roles of the two witnesses in similar scenarios, all recorded in the OT, which I've listed. We'll never know exactly who they are until the day they rise and prophesy in Jerusalem, but at least we can get a clue from these OT precedents, as a tree is known by its fruits.

Isn't that the very same thing you were doing in your last comment? That the Two Angels were the Two Witnesses?

At least my words are with authority of personal knowledge. But i can not prove that either.

So is your faith "only" based on the confermation you get from Scripture. And from Jesus own words, scripture is only the cornerstone of what your faith begins on, it is not the whole building.

Scripture is only the foundation, the beginning. Jesus tells us to recieve the Holy Spirit, and it IS the Holy Spirit we need to continue with to Grow.

You have replaced your faith with Confirmation Theology. There is 0 growth in that.

A tree is known by its fruit. This is true. The only problem nowadays is that so many think they got it figured out, but they do not.

Even if i told you the truth, who would believe. Who now uses the Gift of Discernment?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It was not the "Witnesses" , who came to Abraham. One was the Lord, and the Two that went to fetch Lot were Angels.

Big difference between Angels and the "Two".

Isn't that the very same thing you were doing in your last comment? That the Two Angels were the Two Witnesses?

At least my words are with authority of personal knowledge. But i can not prove that either.

So is your faith "only" based on the confermation you get from Scripture. And from Jesus own words, scripture is only the cornerstone of what your faith begins on, it is not the whole building.

Scripture is only the foundation, the beginning. Jesus tells us to recieve the Holy Spirit, and it IS the Holy Spirit we need to continue with to Grow.

You have replaced your faith with Confirmation Theology. There is 0 growth in that.

A tree is known by its fruit. This is true. The only problem nowadays is that so many think they got it figured out, but they do not.

Even if i told you the truth, who would believe. Who now uses the Gift of Discernment?

Why can't you see the obvious connection, friend? Didn't Jesus warn that the end times would be like the days of Lot? Didn't Jesus condemn the towns that reject the gospel by declaring that Sodom and Gomorrah would be more tolerable than those towns? I didn't make this up from thin air, Jesus brought up the reference first. And for the record, I've never said the two witnesses will be the exact same two angels that rescued Lot, I was just noting that the same history will repeat itself in the end.

 

[Garee]

It was not the "Witnesses" , who came to Abraham. One was the Lord, and the Two that went to fetch Lot were Angels.

Big difference between Angels and the "Two".

I would offer. The English word Angel is a interpretation or paraphrase and not the translation from the Greek "Angelos.". .English "Messenger" in the original autographs

Most bibles 99% are paraphrases .

Angel and not messenger was developed long after the original autographs. A lie of the evil one in a attempt to make all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) without effect. The abomination of desolation .

Angelos was paraphrased as angel to give it a new "different kind" of meaning needed in the develope government empowered of dying venerable men puffed up so highly that they believe their oral traditions rise above sola scriptura .

They lorded it over the faith of the non-venerable pew warmers. Two apostles as messengers of God were used as a loving warning to us. . .Not to think of any man seen above all things written in the law and the prophets .

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

I would think Its God who works in men to both reveal his will and empower them to do it to his good pleasure . Why venerate dying flesh of mankind?

The true meaning with no other meaning applied is messenger.. how beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel . . .not the minds as if they brought their own prophecy (private interpretation. )

It would seem God sent three apostles three showed up with Abraham . . three denotes the end of a matter. . . two the witness God has spoken. . . two men were sent to town .

 

[B-A-C]

Most bibles 99% are paraphrases .

Hmmm... um, no.
Please state where this statistic comes from.

 

[Curtis]

I don't study "eschatology" but I think that maybe Moses and Elijah who appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus could be the two witnesses.

 

[Garee]

Hmmm... um, no.
Please state where this statistic comes from.

That was a guess. I do not know the %.

 

[Bill]

Use the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, it is for things like this, that Discernment is there to resolve.

Seek God's peace in your heart

 

[Bill]

I would offer. The English word Angel is a interpretation or paraphrase and not the translation from the Greek "Angelos.". .English "Messenger" in the original autographs

Most bibles 99% are paraphrases .

Angel and not messenger was developed long after the original autographs. A lie of the evil one in a attempt to make all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) without effect. The abomination of desolation .

Angelos was paraphrased as angel to give it a new "different kind" of meaning needed in the develope government empowered of dying venerable men puffed up so highly that they believe their oral traditions rise above sola scriptura .

They lorded it over the faith of the non-venerable pew warmers. Two apostles as messengers of God were used as a loving warning to us. . .Not to think of any man seen above all things written in the law and the prophets .

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

I would think Its God who works in men to both reveal his will and empower them to do it to his good pleasure . Why venerate dying flesh of mankind?

The true meaning with no other meaning applied is messenger.. how beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel . . .not the minds as if they brought their own prophecy (private interpretation. )

It would seem God sent three apostles three showed up with Abraham . . three denotes the end of a matter. . . two the witness God has spoken. . . two men were sent to town .

I can understand the logic to your thinking. To me is is not worth the arguement, bit of a mute point.

The Witnesses, in general, are more than to witness. They are beings of action, as are love and faith words of action

 

[Bill]

I don't study "eschatology" but I think that maybe Moses and Elijah who appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus could be the two witnesses.

They were , as were John the Baptist and Paul, and the final Two yet to come.

 

[Bill]

Why can't they? They were with God when they appeared to Abraham and Sarah, and then they did exactly what the Two Witnesses will do - prophesying the imminent destruction, which, obviously, felt to deaf ears except Lot and his family. The Scripture never said it has to Elijah and Moses - or Paul and John, for that matter, this is just the orthodox teaching.

Lol (sorry i had to say this) and yours is the unorthodox.

Jesus said John was Elijah, and that Elijah would come again. The Fire and Zeal of the Holy Spirit can not be contained.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Lol (sorry i had to say this) and yours is the unorthodox.

Jesus said John was Elijah, and that Elijah would come again. The Fire and Zeal of the Holy Spirit can not be contained.

Arguing about their identities is chasing wind. When it comes to pass that they rise and prophesy for three and a half years, chances are, neither of them would be literally named John or Elijah. Only can we know who they really are by studying those past instances. If you're so interested at Elijah, why not go back to 2 Kings and study the original Elijah? There was a drought for three and a half years, Elijah confronted Ahab, Jezebel and all their false prophets, he literally called down fire from heaven, a pretty striking parallel to the Two Witnesses at the end times, don't you think?

 

[Bill]

I don't mean to disparage, but you gotta be cautious with this approach known as "spiritualizing" by assuming them as John and Paul preaching the Word of God without any Scriptural corroboration. There's no private interpretation of the Scripture (2 Peter 1:20), the Scripture interprets itself, a principle known as Sola Scriptura. If it doesn't, then there's usually a historical or cultural reference, which can be easily understood if you do some research, for example who the Pharisees, Sedducees, Zealots, Scribes were. Sometimes there's a scientific fact behind the text, for example, "He hangs the earth on nothing,"(Job 26:7) or "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you" (Jer. 1:5).

In the case of the Two Witnesses, there're one clear reference in Zechariah about the two witnesses being God's two olive trees, which represent two houses of Israel. In fact, the emblem of modern state of Israel is a picture of this vision - two olive branches at either side of a menorah, aka lampstand. Then there were several precedents in which two individuals played the same roles of the two witnesses in similar scenarios, all recorded in the OT, which I've listed. We'll never know exactly who they are until the day they rise and prophesy in Jerusalem, but at least we can get a clue from these OT precedents, as a tree is known by its fruits.

Jesus refers to John the Baptist as Elijah and Paul refers to himself a few times as the witness of God. So yes, i say it with authority of Scripture.

Arguing about their identities is chasing wind. When it comes to pass that they rise and prophesy for three and a half years, chances are, neither of them would be literally named John or Elijah. Only can we know who they really are by studying those past instances. If you're so interested at Elijah, why not go back to 2 Kings and study the original Elijah? There was a drought for three and a half years, Elijah confronted Ahab, Jezebel and all their false prophets, he literally called down fire from heaven, a pretty striking parallel to the Two Witnesses at the end times, don't you think?

I know Elijah well, you would like him too, once you get a handle on your spiritual gifts.

The person at the end times is not the person, Elijah, but another person with the spirit of Elijah.

Btw, why would i go read about him, when i can just talk with him? Don't you go talk with the author of a book, or the person a book is written about, if you can. Versus reading about them?

 

[Garee]

I can understand the logic to your thinking. To me is is not worth the arguement, bit of a mute point.

The Witnesses, in general, are more than to witness. They are beings of action, as are love and faith words of action

Thanks. Sorry .

The witness God has spoken is the law of faith (understanding the word of God and empowering authority to perform it. ) a labor of love as one action working both .(Let it be) and (it was good) the gospel seed in a nutshell . Some murmur others like Jesus did the will of the Father with delight

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Apostles are sent messengers. (nothing more and nothing less. . not a succession venerable dying mankind that rise above it is written .

God can use a Ass that represent the unredeemed like that of the false apostle Ballaam to stop the madness of false prophets to show he is not worshiped by human hands as a will.

 

[Bill]

Thanks. Sorry .

The witness God has spoken is the law of faith (understanding the word of God and empowering authority to perform it. ) a labor of love as one action working both .(Let it be) and (it was good) the gospel seed in a nutshell . Some murmur others like Jesus did the will of the Father with delight

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Apostles are sent messengers. (nothing more and nothing less. . not a succession venerable dying mankind that rise above it is written .

God can use a Ass that represent the unredeemed like that of the false apostle Ballaam to stop the madness of false prophets to show he is not worshiped by human hands as a will.

Thank you I like being an ass.

By the way it's still didn't quite answer the question I asked we were talking about the two witnesses before and I had asked you about the fact that they had the authority given to them to do whatever they want whenever they want to do it how is that possible if everything has to come from God?