Prophetic Standards Statement

[Bill]

Ok. Back to the central topic?

Lol every time i see your name , i say to myself " uh oh , we strayed too far again . Lol

 

[Bill]

PROPHETIC STANDARDS STATEMENT

At a time when there are many questions in the Body concerning the gift of prophecy and the ministry of the prophet, and in light of the needs of local pastors as well as individual believers to have practical guidelines for processing prophetic words, as Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders, we felt that now was the opportune moment to produce this current document.

It is not the purpose of this statement to condemn or accuse. Instead, our purpose is to help provide scriptural guidelines for the operation of the gift of prophecy and the functioning of the ministry of the prophet, while at the same time affirming the importance of these gifts and ministries.

WE BELIEVE that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including the gift of prophecy and the ministry of the prophet, are essential for the edification of the Body of Christ and the work of the ministry, which is why Scripture exhorts us to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that we may prophesy (see 1 Cor. 14:1, 39). Prophetic ministry is of great importance to the Church and must be encouraged, welcomed, and nurtured.

WE BELIEVE it is essential to create an environment in which prophecy can flourish, side by side with the other gifts of the Spirit and together with apostolic, evangelistic, pastoral, and teaching ministries. To create this environment, we need to encourage freedom in the Spirit in a faith-filled atmosphere, making room for spontaneous utterances as the Spirit wills. But all this must be done with proper accountability and oversight.

WE BELIEVE that the general function of the gift of prophecy, as it relates to the church, has to do with edification, exhortation, and comfort (see 1 Cor. 14:3). As this gift relates to unbelievers, it can reveal the secrets of their hearts and bring them to repentance, demonstrating God’s reality to them (see 1 Cor. 14:24-25).

WE BELIEVE that the essence of the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus, hence the ultimate goal of prophetic ministry is to exalt the lordship of Jesus Christ, even though we recognize that not every prophetic word will specifically point to Him (see Rev. 19:10; 1 Cor. 12:3).

WE BELIEVE in the five-fold ministry of the prophet, recognizing that such prophets will also be used to bring correction, instruction, and directional clarity to the Body, but not independent of other leaders, and therefore different from the model of the independent Old Testament prophet.

WE RECOGNIZE that prophets do not serve as spiritual fortune tellers or prognosticators, nor is their role to satisfy our curiosity about the future or reveal abstract information. God’s purpose in prophecy is redemptive, calling for repentance, giving supernatural guidance, bringing comfort, deliverance, restoration, and glorifying Jesus as Lord.

WE RECOGNIZE that, due to the nature of prophetic ministry, some prophetic words can be submitted for evaluation before they are delivered while other words will be evaluated after they are delivered. But in all situations, those claiming to speak for God should welcome the godly evaluation of their prophecies.

WE BELIEVE that prophecies should first be tested by the Word, then if the prophetic word is not contrary to the Scriptures, it should be evaluated by other mature leaders. If a prophecy is given in the context of a local church, then mature leaders in that setting should evaluate it. If a prophecy is given in the context of a region or nation, then mature regional or national leaders should be invited to evaluate the word (see 1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thes. 5:19-21). Those who refuse to have their words tested should not be given a platform.

WE RECOGNIZE that prophets receive supernatural revelation from God, but they are also dependent on other five-fold ministry leaders for the interpretation and application of the revelations they receive. It is the Lord’s will that all these various ministry gifts, including the ministry of the prophet, work in harmony rather than independently. Only then will the Body come into full health and maturity.

WE RECOGNIZE the unique challenges posed by the internet and social media, as anyone claiming to be a prophet can release a word to the general public without any accountability or even responsibility. While it is not possible to stop the flood of such words online, we urge all believers to check the lives and fruit of those they follow online and also see if they are part of a local church body and have true accountability for their public ministries and personal lives. We also urge prophetic ministers posting unfiltered and untested words purportedly from the Lord to first submit those words to peer leaders for evaluation.

WE AGREE that Scripture instructs us not to despise prophecies but to examine prophetic utterances carefully and to hold fast to that which is good (1 Thes. 5:19-21). This also means that we should cultivate honor and respect for true prophetic ministries rather than an attitude of skepticism or scorn.

WE BELIEVE that all spiritual leaders, including those serving as prophetic ministers, should be vetted and qualified by their respective churches, networks, or movements based on the standards of leadership set forth by Paul the apostle as found in 1 Timothy 3:1-8; Titus 1:5-9.

WE BELIEVE that all spiritual leaders, including five-fold ministry prophets, should be above reproach and should live a life worthy of their calling (see Eph. 4:1-3). Consequently, we believe that prophetic leaders whose lives violate the moral and ethical standards of the Word disqualify themselves from the ministry irrespective of how much influence or anointing they have.

WE ALSO AGREE that the greatest requirement for all leaders in the church, including prophetic leaders, is to endeavor to reflect the character of Christ and to utilize their gifts out of love for God, His people, and the lost (1 Cor. 13:2; Rom. 8:29).

WE VALUE humility, integrity, and accuracy in prophetic ministry in order to protect the faith and trust of those who hear a word that is stated to be from God. It is a sacred thing to claim to speak for the Lord and, in keeping with the words of Jesus, to whom much is given, much is required (see Luke 12:48). And just as those who teach are held to a higher standard of accountability (see Jam. 3:1), so also those who prophesy should be held to a higher standard. They can have a powerful influence over people’s lives for better or worse, because of which we urge sobriety and circumspection together with faith and boldness.

WE UNDERSTAND that prophecies can be conditional and that many prophecies will take time to come to pass. We also recognize that prophetic language is often mysterious and symbolic, requiring interpretation and insight. This means that prophecies that do not contradict the Bible or that are not contrary to fact should be evaluated over time and not immediately rejected.

On the other hand, if a prophetic word is delivered containing specific details and dates in which the stated prophetic word will come to pass and that prophecy contains no conditions to be met in order to be fulfilled, and that word does not come to pass as prophesied, then the one who delivered the word must be willing to take full responsibility, demonstrating genuine contrition before God and people.

Any statement of apology and/or explanation/clarification should be delivered to the audience to whom the erroneous word was given. For example, if it was given to an individual, the apology (and/or explanation/clarification) should be delivered to the individual. If the word was delivered publicly, then a public apology (and/or explanation/clarification) should be presented. This is not meant to be a punishment but rather a mature act of love to protect the honor of the Lord, the integrity of prophetic ministry, and the faith of those to whom the word was given.

WE BELIEVE it is essential that all spiritual leaders, including prophetic leaders, have a presbytery of peers and seasoned spiritual leaders who can hold them accountable regarding their life and ministry. In keeping with this, we reject the notion that to judge a prophet’s words is a violation of Psalm 105:15 (where God exhorted the ancient nations not to touch the patriarchs or harm His prophets). Prophets who err must be willing to receive correction from peer leaders with whom they are in accountable relationship. Those refusing such accountability should not be welcomed for ministry.

WE RECOGNIZE that true prophetic words can be faith-building and can sometimes call for a faith-filled response, but we reject the idea that prophets can use Old Testament texts about believing the prophets in order to gain blanket support for their words, as if everything a prophet utters today must be believed. To the contrary, we can only believe the prophetic word if it is not contrary to Scripture, it is not factually in error, and our own spirits bear witness with it. Only then can we add our faith to that word coming to pass (see 1 Tim. 1:18).

Those wanting to use Old Testament prophetic texts to exercise influence or authority over their followers should remember that inaccurate prophecy under that same Old Testament standard was punishable by death. New Testament prophets, along with other New Testament ministry leaders, do not lord it over their people or demand submission and faith. Instead, in humility, they serve the flock (see 1 Pet. 5:1-4).

WE REJECT any threatening words from prophets today, warning their followers that judgment will fall on them if they fail to obey the prophet’s words. We see this as a dangerous form of spiritual manipulation.

WE REJECT the spiritual manipulation of the prophetic gift for the personal benefit of the prophet or of his or her ministry, whether to garner favor, power, or financial gain. And under no circumstances can a prophet charge money to deliver a prophetic word. This is spiritual abuse of the worst kind and is detestable in God’s sight.

WE REJECT the notion that a contemporary prophetic word is on the same level of inspiration or authority as Scripture or that God always speaks inerrantly through prophets today, since the Bible says we only know in part and prophesy in part (1 Cor. 13:9). It is the written Word alone that can lay claim to being “the Word of God” (2 Tim. 3:16); prophecies, at best, are “a word from the Lord,” to be tested by the Word of God.

Finally, while we believe in holding prophets accountable for their words, in accordance with the Scriptures, we do not believe that a sincere prophet who delivers an inaccurate message is therefore a false prophet. Instead, as Jesus explained, and as the Old Testament emphasized, false prophets are wolves in sheep’s clothing, in contrast to true believers who might speak inaccurately (see Matt. 7:15-20; Jer. 23:9-40; Ezek. 13:23). Thus a false prophet is someone who operates under a false spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit.

WE THEREFORE RECOGNIZE distinctions between a believer who gives an inaccurate prophecy (in which case they should acknowledge their error), a believer who consistently prophesies inaccurately (in which case we recognize that this person is not a prophet and we urge them to stop prophesying), and a false prophet (whom we recognize as a false believer, a lost soul, calling them to repent and be saved).

Because God’s gifts and calling are irrevocable (see Rom. 11:29), we understand that a person who has been prophetically gifted might be able to function in that gifting even though they are no longer in right relationship with God. That is why it is imperative that we judge a prophet by the fruit of their life and ministry rather than by their gift, also recognizing that there are some who started right but will be rejected in the end (see Matt. 7:21-23)

There are 2 problems i see in this , and a 3rd if the Discernment is lacking .

1 ) as you know , the One World Church is being established as we speak . They are so bold to even go with that title , One World Church .

As the members of this group are corrupt , that will also mean anyone they call a prophet will also be corrupt

If the Christian churches are not strong in The Gift of Dicernment how will the be able to stop that infiltration. They will strive to deceive many , and will succeed

2 ) what do you do when the one God calls His prophet goes beyond what you are familiar with.

Remember just because , at this time , we think we are wise . It is only based on the knowlege you have at present. 10 yrs from now you will have grown in wisdom and may have had some spiritual experiences.

But one called to be a prophet may already be beyond that faith , ( your faith after 10 yrs ) you may not be able to understand the experiences he is having now. And you wont be able to see the passages in the scripture because you can see it that way at this time..

3 ) So if no one has strong Dicernment how will you ever know . If the false prophet is false or if Gods prophet is real.

You state you will find it in the Scripture .

Here is a test then , if you are under the teaching, once saved always saved . That is false teaching .

Scripture is clear about Judas Iscariot . Jesus stated to the Apostles, rejoice for your names are written in heaven. Then later at the Last super , " it would have been better if he had never been born "

 

[Bob Carabbio]

We are talking core , not extended . The basics

Jesus only : Born of a Virgin . Both God and Man at same time . Died on the cross for the sins of all mankind , rose from the dead / grave . Arose into heaven . He is our Only salvation . With Him, In Him , By Him our Salvation. the Word ( Gospel of John 1.1 etc. ) the Cornerstone, the Living Water etc.

"Salvation by FAITH", and NOT BY WORKS is as "Basic" as it gets.

 

[Bill]

"Salvation by FAITH", and NOT BY WORKS is as "Basic" as it gets.

Start up another thread , because this subject will always take us away from the posted topic

 

[Rhema]

"Salvation by FAITH", and NOT BY WORKS is as "Basic" as it gets.

So obedience has no role? (Not according to the scriptures... need I post them?)

Unfortunately, Martin Luther purposefully added a word into one verse of his German translation and removed a word from another verse in order to "prove" his theology - a Doctrine of Salvation that was unknown to the church for 1,500 years. So... not so basic. Do you see a difference between the two verses bellow, the first from the KJV (with the word removed) and it's mirror verse using the words actually written in the Greek text? (My apologies for the rhetorical question, given the theme of the OP. Let me know if you wish to continue this discussion.)

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV)​

For by grace are ye saved through ... faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV - fixed)​

For by grace are ye saved through THE faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

It does not say by grace are ye saved through your faith.

Start up another thread , because this subject will always take us away from the posted topic

I'm done Bill... Thank you.

Rhema

 

[Waggles]

Ephesians 2:8
(LEB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, the gift of God;
(LSV) for by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [is] not of yourselves—[it is] the gift of God,
(NENT) for by *grace have ye been saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
(RV) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(WEB) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Weymouth) For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
(YLT) for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,

Our faith in Jesus as God and Saviour and the gospel brings us to a place where we can receive grace (mercy and forgiveness)
but what is required for us to receive grace?
Repentance unto obedience to the commandments of God - His way not our ways
Water baptism by full immersion confessing our faith and repentance before other believers/disciples
Baptism of the Holy Spirit through seeking to receive the promise from the Father
thus we are able to claim that we are "born from above"
Then we receive the grace of God and our past sins are forgiven and the record against us are expunged - a new clean slate

For us Pentecostals we also believe (because it is scripture and we experience the truth of scripture) that speaking in tongues is the sign of Holy Spirit baptism.
This is first century Pentecostal Christianity we can all read of in our New Testaments - no Roman Catholics, no Lutherans, no Orthodox, no Protestants, no other faith or doctrine.

 

[Bill]

So obedience has no role? (Not according to the scriptures... need I post them?)

Unfortunately, Martin Luther purposefully added a word into one verse of his German translation and removed a word from another verse in order to "prove" his theology - a Doctrine of Salvation that was unknown to the church for 1,500 years. So... not so basic. Do you see a difference between the two verses bellow, the first from the KJV (with the word removed) and it's mirror verse using the words actually written in the Greek text? (My apologies for the rhetorical question, given the theme of the OP. Let me know if you wish to continue this discussion.)

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV)​

For by grace are ye saved through ... faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV - fixed)​

For by grace are ye saved through THE faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

It does not say by grace are ye saved through your faith.


I'm done Bill... Thank you.

Rhema

Im not following your point ,

I was explaining to Bob about core , just core thinking that all churches must have to be called Christian .

If Jesus is not at the center of your own faith , or if Jesus is not the center of your church , then niether you or your church are Christian.

If it is more important to argue over secondary matters , faith and works and all those other things . Then you are not Christian

Jesus is what all was created for. Jesus is the King of Kings , Jesus is the Beginning Jesus is God

Jesus is way more important than ourselves.

This is what the core thinking is in all Christian Churches. Now you are either with us or against us.

When you go to Heaven , this will be the very same, that everything is about Jesus

 

[Bill]

Ephesians 2:8
(LEB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, the gift of God;
(LSV) for by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [is] not of yourselves—[it is] the gift of God,
(NENT) for by *grace have ye been saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
(RV) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(WEB) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Weymouth) For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
(YLT) for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,

Our faith in Jesus as God and Saviour and the gospel brings us to a place where we can receive grace (mercy and forgiveness)
but what is required for us to receive grace?
Repentance unto obedience to the commandments of God - His way not our ways
Water baptism by full immersion confessing our faith and repentance before other believers/disciples
Baptism of the Holy Spirit through seeking to receive the promise from the Father
thus we are able to claim that we are "born from above"
Then we receive the grace of God and our past sins are forgiven and the record against us are expunged - a new clean slate

For us Pentecostals we also believe (because it is scripture and we experience the truth of scripture) that speaking in tongues is the sign of Holy Spirit baptism.
This is first century Pentecostal Christianity we can all read of in our New Testaments - no Roman Catholics, no Lutherans, no Orthodox, no Protestants, no other faith or doctrine.

What do you mean by no Roman Catholic , no Lutherans, no Orthodox, no Protestants, no other faith or doctrine. ?

Be carefull of your answer

Because this statement sounds as if you have placed the Pentecostals on top of the totem pole.

 

[Bill]

May the Lord Bless us Always

Just a note, i was trying to keep this focus on the authers intention , having to do with Prophetic Standards.

I do like the idea of having some basic thinking when it comes to this . But like i stated before, what happens when the prophet speaks of things that go against the grain of many.

So let me throw a few out there to ruffle some feathers

1 osas , false teaching
2 pre trib rapture , false teaching
3 faith alone , false teaching
4 must speak in tongues , false teaching

Each can be proven to be false , but you wont listen because it has been taught for so long . It has become like doctrine.

Lord knows i have explained each of these a multitude of times. But your hearts are so stubborn , you wont listen

So now i have been pushing Descernment. Hoping you will actually use it . Lord knows your faith is so weak , cant punch your way out of a paper bag.

Sure , there are 3 or 4 with much stronger faith .

Dont be afraid to speak in God's Love

 

[Rhema]

Ephesians 2:8
(LEB) For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, the gift of God;
(LSV) for by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [is] not of yourselves—[it is] the gift of God,
(NENT) for by *grace have ye been saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
(RV) for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(WEB) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(Weymouth) For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
(YLT) for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,

Biased scribes one and all. They have omitted the written words "THE FAITH".

GREEK Textus Receptus:

τη (THE) γαρ (FOR) χαριτι (GRACE) εστε (Y'ALL ARE) σεσωσμενοι (SAVED ONES) δια (BY MEANS OF) της (THE) πιστεως (FAITH) και (AND) τουτο (THAT) ουκ (NOT) εξ (FROM OUT) υμων (OF YOURSELVES) θεου (yet out OF GOD) το (THE) δωρον (GIFT)​

Our faith in Jesus as God and Saviour and the gospel brings us to a place where we can receive grace (mercy and forgiveness)
but what is required for us to receive grace?
Repentance unto obedience to the commandments of God - His way not our ways
Water baptism by full immersion confessing our faith and repentance before other believers/disciples
Baptism of the Holy Spirit through seeking to receive the promise from the Father
thus we are able to claim that we are "born from above"

Sounds like the above should go over into the Baptism thread... good stuff.

For us Pentecostals we also believe (because it is scripture and we experience the truth of scripture)

Amen

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Im not following your point ,

I was explaining to Bob about core , just core thinking that all churches must have to be called Christian .

I would consider "core" to be the expressed Doctrine of Soteriology and the Doctrine of Ecclesiastical Authority. Based upon these two core Doctrines, one will find that Christianity has three major branches (Catholic, Protestant, and Pentecostal).

If Jesus is not at the center of your own faith , or if Jesus is not the center of your church , then niether you or your church are Christian.

Yet Jesus IS at the center of THE FAITH of the Mormons (all three branches), and THE FAITH of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you identify these organizations as Christian churches, then? What of Christian Science? (Most Evangelicals I have met exclude these and even Catholics as being Christian.)

Just sussin' out your definitional framework.

If it is more important to argue over secondary matters , faith and works and all those other things . Then you are not Christian

I'm not sure anyone could label Salvation (the Doctrine of Soteriology) as a "secondary matter". That seems rather odd. (And respectfully, "argue" is your term.)

I personally identify as a disciple of Jesus, and yet have had numerous people condemn me as not Christian (going back over 50years).

In addition, I consider the Doctrine of the Trinity to be a secondary matter, and yet in numerous conversations have been told that non-Trinitarians are not Christian.

When you go to Heaven , this will be the very same, that everything is about Jesus

Jesus said we are all brethren, that not one is to be placed higher than others.

Paul said that Jesus shall be relinquishing his power and authority to the Father.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (Jesus) shall have relinquished (καταργέω - G2673 ) all rule and all authority and power.​

(1 Corinthians 15:22-24 KJV+)​

So... "that everything is about Jesus" ?? From what I read of Jesus, everything is about the Father.

Now you are either with us or against us.

With you? I don't think so... that's a rather contentious statement.

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. ... For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?​

(1 Corinthians 1:11-12, 3:4 KJV)​

Don't take it personally when I say, I am not of Bill.

Rhema

 

[Waggles]

And I presume of you good Christians are obedient to the Word of God and do everything by the book ???
Thus you all would be able to measure yourselves against the Word and have confidence in your obedience to what is commanded for us to do -

1Corinthians 14:
26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be unto edifying.
14:27 If any speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret:
14:28 but if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
14:29 And let prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern.
14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted;
14:32 (and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace), as in all the churches of the saints.
14:37 If any thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of what things I write you, that it is the Lord’s commandment.
14:38 But if any is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 So then, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 But let all things be done decently and in order.

And this we do at our Pentecostal church meetings in full accord with the scriptures above.
So then all who claim to be in worthy Christian churches would also do likewise?

 

[Bill]

Biased scribes one and all. They have omitted the written words "THE FAITH".

GREEK Textus Receptus:

τη (THE) γαρ (FOR) χαριτι (GRACE) εστε (Y'ALL ARE) σεσωσμενοι (SAVED ONES) δια (BY MEANS OF) της (THE) πιστεως (FAITH) και (AND) τουτο (THAT) ουκ (NOT) εξ (FROM OUT) υμων (OF YOURSELVES) θεου (yet out OF GOD) το (THE) δωρον (GIFT)​

Sounds like the above should go over into the Baptism thread... good stuff.


Amen

Rhema

Biased scribes one and all. They have omitted the written words "THE FAITH".

GREEK Textus Receptus:

τη (THE) γαρ (FOR) χαριτι (GRACE) εστε (Y'ALL ARE) σεσωσμενοι (SAVED ONES) δια (BY MEANS OF) της (THE) πιστεως (FAITH) και (AND) τουτο (THAT) ουκ (NOT) εξ (FROM OUT) υμων (OF YOURSELVES) θεου (yet out OF GOD) το (THE) δωρον (GIFT)​

Sounds like the above should go over into the Baptism thread... good stuff.


Amen

Rhema

What is being missed , all scripture has to work together. You cant just take one verse . Then if you see a conflict, that doesnt seem to make sense. Learn what the issue is we are not seeing.

As an example . Scripture states Faith alone brings us to our Salvation.

Scripture also states, faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind.

So this looks like conflicting statements, but they are not.

Our salvation is Jesus.

So it is faith that brings us to Jesus. Now without recieving Jesuus into your heart, then the faith is useless.

As Paul States it is faith with Love.

Jesus = God = Love

Faith brings you to Jesus . Then you recieve Jesus . And when you recieve Jesus you recieve God's Mercy , God's Grace , God's Love all in one package.

Gods Grace and Mercy sent Jesus to the cross. And Jesus died on the cross because He loves us

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So obedience has no role? (Not according to the scriptures... need I post them?)

Unfortunately, Martin Luther purposefully added a word into one verse of his German translation and removed a word from another verse in order to "prove" his theology - a Doctrine of Salvation that was unknown to the church for 1,500 years. So... not so basic. Do you see a difference between the two verses bellow, the first from the KJV (with the word removed) and it's mirror verse using the words actually written in the Greek text? (My apologies for the rhetorical question, given the theme of the OP. Let me know if you wish to continue this discussion.)

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV)​

For by grace are ye saved through ... faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

(Ephesians 2:8 KJV - fixed)​

For by grace are ye saved through THE faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

​

It does not say by grace are ye saved through your faith.


I'm done Bill... Thank you.

Rhema

O.K. go ahead and WORK for your salvation. I'll rest in mine.

 

[Bill]

And I presume of you good Christians are obedient to the Word of God and do everything by the book ???
Thus you all would be able to measure yourselves against the Word and have confidence in your obedience to what is commanded for us to do -

1Corinthians 14:
26 What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be unto edifying.
14:27 If any speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret:
14:28 but if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
14:29 And let prophets speak by two or three, and let the others discern.
14:30 But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
14:31 For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be exhorted;
14:32 (and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
14:33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace), as in all the churches of the saints.
14:37 If any thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of what things I write you, that it is the Lord’s commandment.
14:38 But if any is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
14:39 So then, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
14:40 But let all things be done decently and in order.

And this we do at our Pentecostal church meetings in full accord with the scriptures above.
So then all who claim to be in worthy Christian churches would also do likewise?

May Gods Love fill us.

In my lifetime i have found some brotherhood with Penticostals, because of your openess to the Spirit of God.

I purposely do not speak in tongues. As i have seen too many fall into pride because they can do so.

Paul teaches us to seek the higher gifts. And it is those God has given me.

With many Penticostals nowdays, the devil has been pushing you hard to keep God in a box.

Many will say, there are only 7 Gifts of the Spirit. The Lord has told me the only limit to the Gifts is your own imagination.

Those 7 gifts spoken of. There was a reason the number 7 was used. It is Gods number. Infinity. You remember , how many times shall i forgive someone 7 x 70.

Also those Gifts spoken are part of the Cornerstone , Jesus , the Cornerstone of our faith,

Is the cornerstone the whole building, of couse not. The same is true with faith let it blow up , huge , no end in sight

 

[Bill]

I would consider "core" to be the expressed Doctrine of Soteriology and the Doctrine of Ecclesiastical Authority. Based upon these two core Doctrines, one will find that Christianity has three major branches (Catholic, Protestant, and Pentecostal).


Yet Jesus IS at the center of THE FAITH of the Mormons (all three branches), and THE FAITH of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you identify these organizations as Christian churches, then? What of Christian Science? (Most Evangelicals I have met exclude these and even Catholics as being Christian.)

Just sussin' out your definitional framework.


I'm not sure anyone could label Salvation (the Doctrine of Soteriology) as a "secondary matter". That seems rather odd. (And respectfully, "argue" is your term.)

I personally identify as a disciple of Jesus, and yet have had numerous people condemn me as not Christian (going back over 50years).

In addition, I consider the Doctrine of the Trinity to be a secondary matter, and yet in numerous conversations have been told that non-Trinitarians are not Christian.


Jesus said we are all brethren, that not one is to be placed higher than others.

Paul said that Jesus shall be relinquishing his power and authority to the Father.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (Jesus) shall have relinquished (καταργέω - G2673 ) all rule and all authority and power.​

(1 Corinthians 15:22-24 KJV+)​

So... "that everything is about Jesus" ?? From what I read of Jesus, everything is about the Father.


With you? I don't think so... that's a rather contentious statement.

For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. ... For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?​

(1 Corinthians 1:11-12, 3:4 KJV)​

Don't take it personally when I say, I am not of Bill.

Rhema

Anything of human doctrine is already past core

The core is only Jesus nothing added

 

[Rhema]

What is being missed , all scripture has to work together.

Where does scripture say that?

And if doesn't, you're applying extra biblical concepts to your interpretive practices.

Learn what the issue is we are not seeing.

I actually know what issues you're not seeing. It's a question of understanding your Presuppositional Foundation enough to make comments that might improve your interpretative practices. That happens over a long conversation, and as you say, you've been trying to stick to the OP. So I'll end my interaction here unless you have a thread in mind to which this topic can find a home.

Scripture states Faith alone brings us to our Salvation.

That's debatable.

Scripture also states, faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind.

That's debatable.

So this looks like conflicting statements, but they are not.

That's debatable.

Our salvation is Jesus.

That's void for vagueness.

Now without recieving Jesuus into your heart,

What part of the New Testament texts state that one should "receive Jesus into your heart" ?

(And sometimes a question is a question.)

Gods Grace and Mercy sent Jesus to the cross.

God's Grace and Mercy sent Jesus, His Son, to proclaim the Gospel to us.

The Jews sent Jesus to the cross.

Rhema

PS: But Bill.... you didn't address the topic, you know.

 

[Rhema]

O.K. go ahead and WORK for your salvation. I'll rest in mine.

Go ahead and disobey Jesus, denying him before men. I think I'll obey what was taught by the Son of God when He was here on earth.

(And you avoided the question. Christians always do.... It's disappointing.)

 

[Rhema]

I purposely do not speak in tongues.

Your Will rules ?? How enlightening. That you would disobey the Spirit.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

(Acts 2:4 KJV)​

The Spirit gives utterance. YOU don't.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The core is only Jesus nothing added

Then stop adding Paul.

Rhema

PS: Look Bill, you do know how to answer a question, no ?? So why don't you ??

PPS: (Never mind. I know when someone is wasting my time.)