Question for Christian's

[bowwow]

Give us the recognized Greek scholar where you get that rendering of John 1:1. I've done a lot of reading concerning the Deity of Jesus Christ and I've never found a scholar of NT Greek who translates John 1:1 like that, or are you merely speaking as Dr. Bowwow.

I am NOT a NT Greek scholar, and do not pretend to be, so I refer to recognized source authorities who are real scholars.

This is how it's worded in the Textus Receptus...

In the origin was the saying word and the saying word was toward the God and God this was in origin(al) toward the God.

What I don't like about the TR is that they are Trinitarian, and I've noticed that over the years they've made some 'trinitarian required' CHANGES! It's disgusting!

 

[Dylan569]

How many times do I have to go through this? It's impossible for God to be a man. It only says so many times in the Old Testament. Trinity is one big blunder.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

Numbers 23:19 KJV
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15:29 KJV
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent

Hosea 11:9 KJV
I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Job 9:32 KJV
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.

Hebrews 6:18
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.

If they are equal, why did Jesus say in John 14:28

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Why did he say in John 10:29,

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

And why did Jesus say in John 13:16

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

Why did the author of Hebrews say, "Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (Joh 1:1 NRSVue"

"And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth." (Joh 1:14 NRSVue)

"No one has ever seen God. It is the only Son, himself God, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known." (Joh 1:18 NRSVue)

"Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me;" (Heb 10:5 NRSVue)

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1Jn 5:20 NRSVue"

I suppose if I were God, I could explain the incarnation, but since I am not God, I'll stay with his instruction:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and to our children forever, to observe all the words of this law." (Deu 29:29 NRSVue)

"Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!" (2Jn 1:7 NRSVue)

"By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God." (1Jn 4:13-15 NRSVue)

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also." (1Jn 2:22-23 NRSVue)

IF ANY TRANSLATION COULD TRANSLATE TO DENY THE DEITY OF JESUS THE CHRIST, IT WOULD BE THIS ACADEMIC TRANSLATION, THE UPDATE OF 2021.

 

[Dylan569]

This is how it's worded in the Textus Receptus...

In the origin was the saying word and the saying word was toward the God and God this was in origin(al) toward the God.

What I don't like about the TR is that they are Trinitarian, and I've noticed that over the years they've made some 'trinitarian required' CHANGES! It's disgusting!

I suppose if you were to try and find a version that suits you, it would be that of the Watchtower, the NWT. I'll stay with the universal, ecumenical teaching of the church:

"if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." (1Ti 3:15 NRSVue)

"Beloved, while eagerly preparing to write to you about the salvation we share, I find it necessary to write and appeal to you to contend for the faith that was once and for all handed on to the saints." (Jud 1:3 NRSVue)

 

[Rhema]

What I don't like about the TR is that they are Trinitarian,

Well... to nit pik,

TR stands for Textus Receptus which is a family of Byzantine Greek texts. And the Byzantine Empire was Greek Orthodox since the Council of Nicaea. In that even the Alexandrian texts came from the Catholic Church, one might say that ALL the Greek Manuscripts were Trinitarian.

Except for the Arians, who still held that Jesus was God, but in a different way.

But I agree with you about Trinitarian translations.

Peace out,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brethren,

The two questions I present to you all. One starting another ending the post. I have bolded the words that identify the speaker in the following verses that you might see who is speaking at any given time.

Therefore, my initial inquiry is, "Who is speaking in the following verses?"


[Zec 12:1-10 KJV] 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem [shall be] my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

My second question is: if God is speaking in these verses, which aligns with what is written, then "When did God get pierced?" as mentioned in v10.

With the Love of Christ Jesus
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I thought I'd share the CJB below of the above KJV verses, for a different perspective.

The Complete Jewish Bible​

1 A prophecy, the word of ADONAI concerning Isra'el - here is the message from ADONAI, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 "I will make Yerushalayim a cup that will stagger the surrounding peoples. Even Y'hudah will be caught up in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who try to lift it will hurt themselves, and all the earth's nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes," says ADONAI, "I will strike all the horses with panic and their riders with madness; I will keep watch over Y'hudah, but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y'hudah will say to themselves, 'Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength through ADONAI-Tzva'ot their God.'
6 When that day comes, I will make the leaders of Y'hudah like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood, like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain; they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right and on the left. Yerushalayim will be inhabited in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 ADONAI will save the tents of Y'hudah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim will not appear greater than that of Y'hudah.
8 When that day comes, ADONAI will defend those living in Yerushalayim. On that day, even someone who stumbles will be like David; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of ADONAI before them.
9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son.

 

[Rhema]

Therefore, my initial inquiry is, "Who is speaking in the following verses?"

Yahovah.

My second question is: if God is speaking in these verses, which aligns with what is written, then "When did God get pierced?" as mentioned in v10.

Unfortunately, your verse 10 is not the verse 10 as found in Jesus' Bible.

Bear with me. While I don't have the numbers off the top of my head right now, the overwhelming number of quotes from the Old Testament found in the New Testament, even passages that Jesus himself quoted, come from the Septuagint, and most of those are word for word.

Here's verse 10 from the Bible that Jesus used:

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn son.​

(Zechariah 12:10 Brenton)

Sorry... no "piercing" at all.

Here is where the bias of translators becomes pretty self evident. Trinitarian translators will ignore the Septuagint, and even twist the Hebrew word DAQAR into pierce, when as a primitive root it means to stab with a knife.

As background, there are in general three different versions of the Old Testament. One compiled around the year 400 AD that is known as the Masoretic texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls (unknown until the 1940's) compiled around the time of Christ, and the LXX which was a Greek translation of the Hebrew texts around the year 300 BC, and kept intact by the Greek Orthodox Church for a couple of millennia. So the oldest compilation by far is that of the Septuagint.

Even the Greek Orthodox Church (profoundly Trinitarian if I may add) reads:

And I will pour the spirit of grace and compassion upon the house of David and those inhabiting Jerusalem, and they shall look upon Me whom they mocked, and they will mourn for Him as for a beloved one, and they shall grieve profoundly as for a firstborn son.​

(Zechariah 12:10 The Orthodox Study Bible)

So...

"When did God get pierced?"

He didn't. It isn't in verse 10 (of the Bible that Jesus used).

Kindly,
Rhema

(Now did you know there are two completely different versions of Jeremiah?)

 

[Dylan569]

Dear Brethren,

The two questions I present to you all. One starting another ending the post. I have bolded the words that identify the speaker in the following verses that you might see who is speaking at any given time.

Therefore, my initial inquiry is, "Who is speaking in the following verses?"


[Zec 12:1-10 KJV] 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem [shall be] my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify [themselves] against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David [shall be] as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

My second question is: if God is speaking in these verses, which aligns with what is written, then "When did God get pierced?" as mentioned in v10.

With the Love of Christ Jesus
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I thought I'd share the CJB below of the above KJV verses, for a different perspective.

The Complete Jewish Bible​

1 A prophecy, the word of ADONAI concerning Isra'el - here is the message from ADONAI, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 "I will make Yerushalayim a cup that will stagger the surrounding peoples. Even Y'hudah will be caught up in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who try to lift it will hurt themselves, and all the earth's nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes," says ADONAI, "I will strike all the horses with panic and their riders with madness; I will keep watch over Y'hudah, but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y'hudah will say to themselves, 'Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength through ADONAI-Tzva'ot their God.'
6 When that day comes, I will make the leaders of Y'hudah like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood, like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain; they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right and on the left. Yerushalayim will be inhabited in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 ADONAI will save the tents of Y'hudah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim will not appear greater than that of Y'hudah.
8 When that day comes, ADONAI will defend those living in Yerushalayim. On that day, even someone who stumbles will be like David; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of ADONAI before them.
9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son.

Chrst4Ever, that is a great post!. In the Hebrew of the OT, this is an excellent proof that the Messiah was to be Yahweh, the LORD, the One who was pierced. Paul wrote an interesting sentence on the topic of Yahweh being crucified.

"But we speak God’s wisdom, a hidden mystery, which God decreed before the ages for our glory and which none of the rulers of this age understood, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Co 2:7-8 NRSVue)

"And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that, when they look on the one(Heb on me) whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn." (Zec 12:10 NRSVue) Thankfully, the Updated Edition of the NRSV added the note on the word "one" which I inserted in the quote. The translators of the 1989 UK version, the Revised English Bible, took an interesting approach to the translation -

"but I shall pour a spirit of pity and compassion on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Then they will look on me, on him whom they have pierced, and will lament over him as over an only child, and will grieve for him bitterly as for a firstborn son." (Zech 12:10 REB)

There are other OT prophecies that show that the Messiah, the Christ, was to be Yahweh, the LORD in most English translations.

"For a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his shoulders, and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Great will be his authority, and there shall be endless peace for the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time onward and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." (Isa 9:6-7 NRSVue) The Hebrew translated as **"Mighty God", is (Heb, gibbowr)" which means Yahweh, the LORD because the same word is used in the next chapter:

"On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer lean on the one who struck them but will lean on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God(Heb, gibbowr). (Isa 10:20-21 NRSVue)

Another passage showing the Messiah, the Christ was to be the LORD, Yahweh, is Isa. 40:3 and referenced in Mark 1:1-3

Another passage as proof text is;

"The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be called: “The LORD is our righteousness.” (Jer 23:5-6, NRSV) *The Jews knew this referred to the Messiah: "the Targum interprets it, paraphrasing it thus, 'the Messiah of righteousness;''' and Kimchi's note is, 'this is the King Messiah;"' Quoted quoted from Gill's Exposition

THESE OT PROPHECIES OF THE COMING MESSIAH, THE CHRIST, IS TO BE YAHWEH IS WHY THE FOLLOWING VERSE CONDEMNS THOSE WHO DENY THAT THE MESSIAH HAS COME IN THE FLESH, THOSE WHO DENY JESUS CHRIST IS THE TRUE ALMIGHTY GOD.

"Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!" (2John 1:7 NRSV) This is why we do not accept those JWs into your home, those and others who come to your door.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Unfortunately, your verse 10 is not the verse 10 as found in Jesus' Bible.

I guess you can say that we both use the version that accommodates what we each believe to be true then. Which is usually the case anyway. (shrug)

Oh, by the way just out of curiosity. Who do you say is the "Him" being spoken of in v10 of Jesus' Bible?

That being said I hope you are doing well and that the weather is nice over on your side of the line.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Twistie]

I guess you can say that we both use the version that accommodates what we each believe to be true then. Which is usually the case anyway. (shrug)

Oh, by the way just out of curiosity. Who do you say is the "Him" being spoken of in v10 of Jesus' Bible?

That being said I hope you are doing well and that the weather is nice over on your side of the line.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Problem is there is only one Truth but is that truly the problem??

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.


Idk what the one your responded to or what she said I'm just butting in on what ya said just so ya know

Hope all's well with you n yours!

＼⁠(⁠°⁠o⁠°⁠)⁠／

 

[Christ4Ever]

Idk what the one your responded to or what she said I'm just butting in on what ya said just so ya know

oh, by the way it's a "him" and not a "she" lol

Hope all's well with you n yours!

For you and yours as well dear sister!

I count everyday a blessing, even if some days appear to be more trying than others!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Twistie]

oh, by the way it's a "him" and not a "she" lol


For you and yours as well dear sister!

I count everyday a blessing, even if some days appear to be more trying than others!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Idk that's will take some convincing to get me to see that who you call he is not a she..

Idk just something is telling me different.. either way tho I can't see what is said lol

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

 

[Christ4Ever]

Idk that's will take some convincing to get me to see that who you call he is not a she..

Idk just something is telling me different.. either way tho I can't see what is said lol

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

Perhaps it is merely their feminine side manifesting itself.

 

[Twistie]

Perhaps it is merely their feminine side manifesting itself. ヾ⁠(⁠*⁠’⁠Ｏ⁠’⁠*⁠)⁠/

 

[Garee]

That is truly inventing things out of your own mind. You cannot get what you wrote about "it is written" in Matthew 4. Where did you find in that passage "It representing the unseen gospel understanding"?? Dear readers, the pronoun "it" in this passage is referring to the subject matter spoken of prior to "it is written", in the devil's test of Jesus! From the Oxford Learners Dictionary -

The pronoun "it" is used to refer to an animal or a thing that has already been mentioned or that is being talked about now

‘Where's your car?’ ‘It's in the garage.’

Did you see it?

The other room has two beds in it.

Look! It's going up that tree.

We have $500. Will it be enough for a deposit?

Hi thanks for the reply

The beginning of the ministry of two the Father and the Son of man, Jesus.

Sent him out in the wilderness as a scape goat ..Forty day no food delirious weakened the father of Lies Satan using the bible tried to get the Son of man Jesus to bow down, bringing a lying sign as a wonder showing him all the kingdoms and all the glory of this world only if he would bow down .

Three times the Father gave powerful words of prophecy to strengthen His apostle Jesus three times to denote the end of the matter as it is written again, again , the devil gone like the wind .

It as it is written has the power to rebuke

 

[Rhema]

I guess you can say that we both use the version that accommodates what we each believe to be true then. Which is usually the case anyway. (shrug)

The difference is that you select your version based upon your indoctrination, and or emotional reactions. My reasons are based upon historical fact and linguistic "nit-picking". The process of how each of us arrives at "what we each believe to be true" makes all the difference, and that process is of the utmost importance to ensure that Truth is actually true. The Elephant in the room is that you have a planet of 8 billion people most all of whom are just plain stupid, trying to convince others that they're right.

I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to be in any cult of religious fantasy whether it ranges from Scientology to the Assembly of God.

And I would rather use the OT that JESUS used, than the BS that has morphed into the Evangelical-cult holy books of today. Can you see that the "respect" you have for the Book of Mormon is likely the same "respect" I may have for your New Testament boondoggle? And when I say boondoggle, I mean the translations y'all have. (cf. LINK-go ahead, take a look) Stupid people create stupid doctrines and stupid translations. It's not hard to grasp.

When one steps out of the religious bubble, though, one can then clearly see that Paul taught a completely different Gospel than that which Jesus did. But it's impossible to have a credible and intelligent conversation with someone still inside that bubble.

Try converting a JW and you'll see what I mean.

If my health wasn't so compromised, Nick, I'd gladly invite you out for dinner and conversation on my dime. I've traveled as far as Georgia to meet other posters IRL and the benefits are tremendous.

Oh, by the way just out of curiosity. Who do you say is the "Him" being spoken of in v10 of Jesus' Bible?

Well you don't ask easy questions, that's for sure. The "him" is not the speaker Yahovah, and I would be inclined to see the "him" as a reference to Jesus, the spirit of grace and compassion being poured out upon the house of David (through Jesus) and by extension to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. But your real question should be who is the "Me" in verse 10.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and compassion: and they shall look upon me, because they have mocked me, and they shall make lamentation for him, as for a beloved friend, and they shall grieve intensely, as for a firstborn son.​

(Zechariah 12:10 Brenton)

UNFORTUNATELY...
(and now you're going to make me work... )

The word that both the Brenton and Orthodox translate as "mocked" is κατωρχησαντο (AMI-3P of κατορχέομαι). Since it is not found in the New Testament, there is no corresponding Strong's number, but...

I provide a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for κατορχέομαι

A. dance in triumph over one, treat despitefully​

So I provide my translation for what it's worth...

Zec 12:10 καὶ (AND) ἐκχεῶ (I WILL POUR FORTH) ἐπὶ (INTO THE PRESENCE OF... given the accusative case) τὸν (THE) οἶκον (HOUSE) Δαυιδ (of DAVID) καὶ (AND) ἐπὶ (INTO THE PRESENCE OF... given the accusative case) τοὺς (THOSE) κατοικοῦντας (DWELLING-IN) Ιερουσαλημ (JERUSALEM) πνεῦμα (the SPIRIT) χάριτος (OF GRACE) καὶ (AND) οἰκτιρμοῦ (MERCY), καὶ (AND) ἐπιβλέψονται (THEY SHALL LOOK ATTENTIVELY) πρός (TO) με (ME) ἀνθ᾿ (AGAINST - opposite, over against) ὧν (THEM) κατωρχήσαντο (who DANCED IN TRIUMPH OVER him) καὶ (AND) κόψονται (THEY SHALL WAIL) ἐπ᾿ (OVER) αὐτὸν (HIM) κοπετὸν (LAMENT) ὡς (AS) ἐπ᾿ (OVER) ἀγαπητὸν (a LOVED-ONE) καὶ (AND) ὀδυνηθήσονται (THEY SHALL BE MADE TO GRIEVE) ὀδύνην (GRIEF) ὡς (AS) ἐπὶ (OVER) πρωτοτόκῳ (a FIRSTBORN).

Note - "to grieve grief" is a doubling to indicate intensity, yielding "grieve intensely," but also note the verb is passive, not active. The "they" are being made to grieve. (Same with Wail and Lament - these two words being a Greek verb-noun pair.)

And I (God) will pour forth into the presence of the house of David and into the presence of those dwelling in Jerusalem, the Spirit of Grace and Mercy (Jesus) and they shall look attentively to Me (God) against them (the High Priests, etc.) who danced in triumph over him (Jesus) and they (the ones looking to God) shall wail over him (Jesus) lament, as over a loved one, and they shall be made to grieve grief as over a first born.​

(Zec. 12:10 Rhema - with clarification)

Hoping that helps. I mean you have an exact word for word rendition now.

Rhema

 

[MedicBravo]

The Word is alot more then that.. The Word is Spirit and only Spirit can birth Spirit flesh gives birth to flesh you seem to only see the physical aspects of it

For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts
and turn,
So that I [should heal them.’

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Thus saith the Lord: “Cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

(⁠@⁠_⁠@⁠)

You were going well until "you seem to only see the physical aspects of it".
Untrue.
Show us where prayer had turned bombs and bullets into flowers and magical fairy dust. It's never happened.
Show us proof of someone being raised from the dead in modern days.
Show us proof of someone stopping a killer, evil person by prayer alone. The person instantly has a lightbulb moment and changes on the spot. It's never happened.
Christians aren't some pacifist no matter what people. If it were, it would've been wiped out before it could've started.

 

[Twistie]

You were going well until "you seem to only see the physical aspects of it".
Untrue.
Show us where prayer had turned bombs and bullets into flowers and magical fairy dust. It's never happened.
Show us proof of someone being raised from the dead in modern days.
Show us proof of someone stopping a killer, evil person by prayer alone. The person instantly has a lightbulb moment and changes on the spot. It's never happened.
Christians aren't some pacifist no matter what people. If it were, it would've been wiped out before it could've started.

Ya like I said..

Have a good night tho

(⁠◕⁠ᴗ⁠◕⁠✿⁠)

 

[Garee]

The difference is that you select your version based upon your indoctrination, and or emotional reactions. My reasons are based upon historical fact and linguistic "nit-picking". The process of how each of us arrives at "what we each believe to be true" makes all the difference, and that process is of the utmost importance to ensure that Truth is actually true. The Elephant in the room is that you have a planet of 8 billion people most all of whom are just plain stupid, trying to convince others that they're right.

I would offer.

Historical facts the temporal seen must be mixed with the unseen eternal things of God .

More than one layer of spiritual understanding

Great interpreting tool needed to rightly divide the parables . Dont study without it as it is written (sola scriptura)

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Christ4Ever]

The difference is that you select your version based upon your indoctrination, and or emotional reactions. My reasons are based upon historical fact and linguistic "nit-picking".

And you know this about me how? LOL
You can speak to your own reasoning, which is what you know vs what you write here is the truth. I'm sure the Bible that was used when you came to the Lord at a tender age and were exposed to at first is the same one you now use.

I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to be in any cult of religious fantasy whether it ranges from Scientology to the Assembly of God.

I'm glad you allowed for such a wide range! For I'd would of included the Church of the East, RCC, Baptist, etc. as well!

As far as the rest of that first section of yours, it really is as I said: "I guess you can say that we both use the version that accommodates what we each believe to be true then."

You confirm this as well in the next section, which is what I pretty much have no issue with.

But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Corinthians 2:9-13 NKJV

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Dylan569]

Some of our brethren are "KJV Only", but I do not know if there are any other translations that have such a following, that it is considered the only accurate word of God? I suppose we all have the translation we think overall is a better translation, but I doubt many think their choice is the only one.

I use many translations, and when I quote, sometimes I happen to quote whatever translation is set on my Bible software at the time and it is not critical to my point. I will choose a particular translation as the most accurate and quote it at times, but even then it is a translation within an accepted group of versions. In other words, I carefully avoid 'cherry picking' a particular, single translation because it makes a point I believe. For instance, if someone quotes the New World Translation in order to prove to me that Jesus was "a god", not true God Almighty, they are cherry picking a single translation in an attempt to prove a damning heresy.

As an example of translation choices I make on critical issues, 1 Cor. 6:9 comes to mind. I reject the vast majority of modern translations that insert some form of "homosexual" into the verse. I embrace and believe the KJV, RV, ASV and YLT had it right, and it is still the most accurate; at least, I can give my studied reason for believing those are more accurate than the modern versions, on that verse.

I suppose a key to the thinking of each of us is to notice the translations we have in the "Compare" or "Parallel" selection of our Bible software.

My start point is always the KJV-Strong's, but in the Compare I now have 5, the RV, NRSV, REB GNB & the YT. That gives me a range from literal word for word, to the Dynamic, thought for thought versions, the REB from the UK, and the GNB the USA.

I believe it is helpful when reading posts on forums, to know something about the poster's reasoning and thought processes so as to understand them better. This is why I believe it is very important to have information in the ABOUT part of our Profile, so others see our 'start point'.