Questions About Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith

[GodB4Us]

However the Spirit was already given in the other 4 instances in Acts. But still, in all 5 instances in Acts, people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.
So even if you discount Acts2. You still have to account for the other 4.

If you are referring to Acts 8, you cannot use that reference because Luke had written that they were only water baptized in Jesus's name and had not received the holy Ghost yet.

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

What was wrong? One can speculate but obviously Simon's heart was not right with the Lord yet and so the people's hearts probably wasn't either as they were following as I believe, Philip, out of fanfare to behold the miracles seemingly happening by Philip rather than by the Lord Jesus Christ. Even Simon still needed help to lift his view higher when he had though that the power of giving the Holy Ghost was something he could buy from Peter & John.

Regardless, these potential believers, although water baptized in His name, were not saved yet for they had not received the Holy Spirit at their born again of the Spirit for believing in Jesus Christ since obviously, they were believing in the "things" Philip was preaching about but still following Philip for beholding signs & miracles rather than coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

If you are referring to Acts 8, you cannot use that reference because Luke had written that they were only water baptized in Jesus's name and had not received the holy Ghost yet.

That's the whole point. But also Cornelius and his family in Acts 10, and also the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19.
Paul himself didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the road Damascus.

In fact no one... after Acts2. Received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of initial belief.

 

[GodB4Us]

However the Spirit was already given in the other 4 instances in Acts. But still, in all 5 instances in Acts, people received the baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.
So even if you discount Acts2. You still have to account for the other 4.

As for Acts 4 event, think salvation interrupted as 5,000 potential believers were put on hold when Peter & John got arrested. So when they got released, they went to their "company", those 5,000 potential believers and had reported what had transpired and then those 5,000 potential believers prayed that they would preach the word with boldness like Peter & John had done and that was when they got saved. Proof that they were not saved before is by reading to the end of that chapter of what they did afterwards as they became a new community of believers, 5,000 can do that, where they sold everything and gave to the apostles to distribute it evenly among the new community of believers.

That would not happen if they were already a community of saved believers.

 

[GodB4Us]

That's the whole point. But also Cornelius and his family in Acts 10, and also the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19.
Paul himself didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the road Damascus.

In fact no one... after Acts2. Received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of initial belief.

Cornelius and his family did per Acts 10:43-44 when they believed in Jesus Christ for the remission for sins and had received the promise of the holy Ghost at their salvation moment. That means they were not believers in Jesus Christ regardless of how religious or good these Gentiles were trying to be or to do. This is why God sent a vision to Peter to go and preach the gospel to them.

The Ethiopian eunuch was saved after his water baptism in the latter half of Acts 8.

Until they are baptized with the Holy Ghost by faith in Jesus Christ as sent by the Father, they are not born again of the Spirit nor saved yet.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Rhema]

Taken out of context, sure I do, when thru out that chapter, Paul was saying that for that tongue to benefit himself to be fruitful, he would pray while he is speaking in tongues as manifested by the Holy Ghost that the tongue would be interpreted so he would understand it.

I am quite familiar with the passage. Don't be dismissive. Indeed Paul was addressing corporate issues within a collective body of the church, but that doesn't mean the individual isn't edified when praying in tongues on his own. You've chosen to interpret this passage as a prohibition against tongues unless within a "church service" and with an "interpreter" present.

Yet you yourself highlighted:

I will pray with the spirit, and

But you've chosen to believe that tongues mean only foreign languages of men. But why would God even need "an interpreter" then? There would be no reason for God to give an utterance in tongues to anyone unless a foreigner is present, who then wouldn't need an interpreter, and most likely would think both people knew his or her language. So how is that even a "sign" to the unbeliever?

Paul gave the bottom line on tongues below that it is about God speaking unto the people in their native foreign language that His disciples know not the language in case any one should misunderstood his words.

Yeah.. that doesn't make sense. (See reasons above.)

In addition, you stated, "it is about God speaking unto the people" and yet that's not what is written:

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

The text LITERALLY states that the speaker in tongues speaketh to God, not God speaking to men as you've posited. (That's a huge mistake, no?)

And I find that Paul did speak in tongues outside the church, as stated here: (please note the qualifier "yet")

(1 Corinthians 14:18-19 KJV~) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet within the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.​

(1 Corinthians 14:39 KJV) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.​

Paul did specify that the gifts were to profit the body withal & not individually in the prior chapter 12

Well... that word upon you've placed so much of your understanding - "withal" isn't in the Greek text. I would encourage you to look at a few other translations if you are unfamiliar with συμφέρω

(1 Corinthians 12:7 YLT) And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit;​

(1 Corinthians 12:7 DRB) And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.​

It's hard to achieve a right understanding with the wrong words. In the end, it is somewhat fruitless to discuss tongues with anyone who has not had the experience. Kind of like asking advice on how to fix your car with someone who is not even mechanically inclined.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Since the Father drew me unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His Son to me ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) so I can believe in Him, then my believing in Him is a work of God also ( John 3:18-21 ) for how I was born again of the Spirit ( John 6:37-40 ).

Indeed, although I find Mat. 16:17 to be a better and I think more concise reference to the requirement that the Father reveal to a person that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Yet asking for salvation (or asking for forgiveness in repentance) is not a specific request for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Luke states that one should ask. DID YOU? (I note you hadn't addressed that question.)

And with regards to Acts 19, are you ready to declare that the disciples mentioned in verse four weren't saved? That they were bound for hell?

Since believing in Him is how the Gentiles had received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost per Acts 10:43-44, without asking for anything

I do believe that Cornelius did ask, and the angel of the Lord told him to send for Peter. But to extrapolate one specific instance (one that was meant to teach that the Gentiles would share in the Baptism) is representative of the experience that all believers will have is actually a mistake - one most often made by Pentecostals, in that if you do indeed believe Acts 10 to be a pattern (blueprint) for all believers, then why didn't you start speaking in tongues immediately yourself ??

Per your reference of Luke 11:9-13, Jesus testified indirectly that once you have the promise of the Spirit from the father when we believe the calling of the gospel, we will never ask for the Holy Ghost again les we make the father look evil

That's absurd. Jesus said nothing about "making the Father look evil." That's your personal presumption, is it not? Indeed one does have the promise, but the passage in Luke directly states that one should ask. DID YOU EVER ASK? If you hadn't asked, aren't you merely presuming? I don't think we should be presumptuous about having received when we did not ask. I was saved for years before I asked. And when I did, I received.

I find numerous Christians running around presuming to have received the Holy Ghost, and yet when I ask, "How do you know? What's the difference? What's the change that makes the difference?" They have no answer - just a presumption that they automatically (somehow as if by magic) received such a thing upon repentance. But if there is no identifiable change, then nothing identifiable happened. Most often, though they describe a clean heart of repentance as proof, a thing that I don't find described in the New Testament texts as proof of the Baptism, just a proof of Repentance. And whenever a baptism of the Holy Spirit is described, tongues are present.

Indeed, ask and ye shall receive, but what did you ask for? Most Christians today deny all of the gifts. And it will be according to their faith.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

If you are referring to one of those events as per Acts 19:1-7, there are 3 kinds of disciples in Paul's days and they were disciples of the Pharisees, disciples of john the Baptist's, and disciples of Jesus Christ. That is why it addressed them as "certain disciples" but Paul did not know what kind.

You cannot be serious...

(Acts 19:3 KJV) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.​

Of course Paul knew - right after they told him.

& then they got water baptized

The word "water" is not in the text, you are presuming this. One can just as easily infer that the Baptism mentioned was that of the Holy Ghost, during the laying on of hands. There would have been no need for another water baptism of repentance. They already did that.

(Acts 19:6 KJV) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.​

Look at that !! "They spake with tongues" and outside a church service, and with no foreigners present.

Oh dear,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

This is why they were told to wait since they were not saved yet in being the sons of God to go out and preach the gospel so that they can share like testimony as others that are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, rather than by sight.

Okay, I'm sorry, I think I really need to address this one. So you then believe in two Gospels? If not, then just what Gospel were the disciples preaching when Jesus sent them in Mat. 10 ?? A different one ??

Thanks for any clarification,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

So when they got released, they went to their "company", those 5,000 potential believers

That's absurd. To think that "their company" meant that 5,000 people were just standing around twiddling their thumbs? Unfortunately the word "company" is not in the text.

ηλθον προς τους ιδιους ​

ιδιους does not mean company. LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for ιδιους - G2398 I. one's own

They went unto their own, not 5,000 new people.

(Acts 4:23 YLT) And being let go, they went unto their own friends, and declared whatever the chief priests and the elders said unto them,​

They didn't go to only the Twelve, but they didn't go to the entire church either, just the core members of their group... literally "their own."

If one uses the wrong words, one arrives at the wrong meaning.

Rhema

 

[GodB4Us]

I am quite familiar with the passage. Don't be dismissive. Indeed Paul was addressing corporate issues within a collective body of the church, but that doesn't mean the individual isn't edified when praying in tongues on his own. You've chosen to interpret this passage as a prohibition against tongues unless within a "church service" and with an "interpreter" present.

Yet you yourself highlighted:

And yet that is the point. So ask yourself this question; is it your spirit that is praying or is it the Holy Spirit that is praying? Paul is saying it is his spirit that is praying, not the Holy Spirit, while the holy Spirit is manifesting tongues in Him to the assembly. That means Paul does not understand what is being said as manifested by the Holy Spirit for why he is praying while speaking in tongues that somebody else will interpret as led by the Spirit to do.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

This verse 12 is the topic. "Wherefore" at the beginning of verse 13 is connecting that topic about the use of tongues in the assembly so stop looking at this as if Paul is talking about private use.

13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

This is still about the use of tongues in the church for edifying the church where Paul is instructing those that speak in tongues as manifested by the Holy Ghost to pray while speaking in tongues that someone else will interpret as ed by the Spirit to do.

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Paul is giving the reason why they should pray for the interpretation of that tongue in the assembly because he wants to understand it otherwise that tongue is unfruitful to himself.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

Paul is not praying with the Holy Ghost but with his spirit since it is him praying with the understanding, meaning he is not being self edified until that tongue is interpreted.

As much as believers like to interpret that singing in verse 15 as another benefit of tongues for private uses also, it is not.

Believers need to stop reading in between the lines out of topic as if Paul is giving a secret message about how tongues for private use is so much better than the gift of prophesy as if Paul was undermining himself when trying to exhort believers to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts at the beginning of the chapter.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

But you've chosen to believe that tongues mean only foreign languages of men. But why would God even need "an interpreter" then? There would be no reason for God to give an utterance in tongues to anyone unless a foreigner is present, who then wouldn't need an interpreter, and most likely would think both people knew his or her language. So how is that even a "sign" to the unbeliever?

The reason is for the assembly so that the tongue speaker and others that do not know that language as it is supposed to be interpreted by the Holy Spirit thru another believer for the edification of that whole assembly.

When tongues is used in outreach ministry like in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost, is when an interpreter was not needed, because Jews from all nations were hearing Galileans speak in their native language the wonderful works of God.

Yeah.. that doesn't make sense. (See reasons above.)

Only God can case the increase. And sometimes, when our minds refuse to see the truth, it is because we refuse to believe we were misled.

In addition, you stated, "it is about God speaking unto the people" and yet that's not what is written:

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

The text LITERALLY states that the speaker in tongues speaketh to God, not God speaking to men as you've posited. (That's a huge mistake, no?)

Explain verse 28 then in context of that practice.

1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Is the man speaking to himself and to God? Is the man mad? No. When you see how Paul was speaking in those days for what he meant is, the man understood what he was saying as God does too for why he is commanded to be silent as in no talking. Why? Because it was not coming with interpretation for why that foreign visitor was speaking out of turn when you have the practice of 2 or 3 speak in tongues, one by one, and another interpret in that assembly.

So then verse 2 is about men not understanding of what is being said for why it is a mystery to them but God understands what is being said because the Holy Spirit is manifesting that tongue; not that the Holy Spirit is speaking TO God as if there be any mysteries to God. The only way it can be a mystery is the tongue is not being manifested for private use but in the assembly.

When you take verse 1 in context of the following verses, Paul is trying to compare the singular gift of tongue against the gift of prophesy in showing why when believers are zealous for spiritual gift, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts, because the gift of tongues is not a stand alone gift when the tongue speaker needs it interpreted to benefit from that tongue because it is a mystery until it is interpreted for him.

And I find that Paul did speak in tongues outside the church, as stated here: (please note the qualifier "yet")

(1 Corinthians 14:18-19 KJV~) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet within the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.​

(1 Corinthians 14:39 KJV) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.​

Again, you are reading in between the lines as if Paul is undermining himself by how cool tongues is for private use through out that chapter when he is exhorting believers to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts.

I submit to you for the Lord to enable you to understand that the "yet" is applied to Paul rather speaking five words with his "understanding" than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

And for him to testify that he spoke more in tongues then them all, means he is not talking about tongues for private use when he needs 2 or 3 from the assembly to confirm what he has written. You cannot have 2 or 3 witnesses from the assembly if he was using tongues for private use in his private prayer closet or whatever as in done not in the assembly.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

For Paul to write this, he knows he will get 2 or 3 members from the assembly to verify that this is the third time he will be coming to them when he does.

Therefore for him to tstify that he spoke in tongues more than them all will require that he was doing tongues in the assembly and not for private use.

Well... that word upon you've placed so much of your understanding - "withal" isn't in the Greek text. I would encourage you to look at a few other translations if you are unfamiliar with συμφέρω

(1 Corinthians 12:7 YLT) And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit;​

(1 Corinthians 12:7 DRB) And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.​

It's hard to achieve a right understanding with the wrong words. In the end, it is somewhat fruitless to discuss tongues with anyone who has not had the experience. Kind of like asking advice on how to fix your car with someone who is not even mechanically inclined.

Thanks,
Rhema

And what does it profit the tongue speaker when it is not being interpreted by another? What does tongue profit the assembly unless it is interpreted by another?

Even resorting to another Bible version that changed the message from the way the KJV has it, is not cool with the Lord, brother. Look at the following verses in context as after that verse 7 in the KJV.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Did you check verse 6 in those other versions? In context with verse 7s is about the gifts within the assembly. Paul goes on to list those gifts as manifested by the Holy Spirit in the assembly.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Again, the topic is maintained as addressing the use of the gifts within the assembly to profit the assembly.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

And if you note verse 13, none of these gifts are hyped as coming with another baptism with the Holy Ghost to get any of those gifts.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Tongues are not for private use for that would make that member as one member of the body as if he needs no other to interpret that tongue to understand it when the practice is to have 2 or 3 witnesses for speaking in tongues one by one and one interpret just as you need 2 or 3 prophesy and one judge. May the Lord wake you up.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

There is a supernatural tongue that is found in the world as gibberish nonsense in the occult, world's religions, idolatries, & cults in Christianity; even the Catholics speak in tongues for private use. That is why we are instructed not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring because the holy Spirit has been in us since salvation at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

And so that spirit coming over the believer later in life is not the Holy Spirit ( 1 John 4:4 )

1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

And neither is that tongue which is not a foreign language of men for God to speak unto the people by, but the devil's tongue as found in the world as gibberish nonsense ( 1 John 4:5-6 ) that the son of perdition could very well use to unite all sinners in that one world church of his as it is ecumenical in nature as fruit of a false prophet;

1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

May God cause the increase.

 

[Rhema]

Only God can case the increase. And sometimes, when our minds refuse to see the truth, it is because we refuse to believe we were misled.

What a wonderful pot and kettle moment.

Rhema

In the end, it is somewhat fruitless to discuss tongues with anyone who has not had the experience. Kind of like asking advice on how to fix your car with someone who is not even mechanically inclined.

 

[God's Truth]

Indeed, although I find Mat. 16:17 to be a better and I think more concise reference to the requirement that the Father reveal to a person that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Yet asking for salvation (or asking for forgiveness in repentance) is not a specific request for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Luke states that one should ask. DID YOU? (I note you hadn't addressed that question.)

And with regards to Acts 19, are you ready to declare that the disciples mentioned in verse four weren't saved? That they were bound for hell?


I do believe that Cornelius did ask, and the angel of the Lord told him to send for Peter. But to extrapolate one specific instance (one that was meant to teach that the Gentiles would share in the Baptism) is representative of the experience that all believers will have is actually a mistake - one most often made by Pentecostals, in that if you do indeed believe Acts 10 to be a pattern (blueprint) for all believers, then why didn't you start speaking in tongues immediately yourself ??


That's absurd. Jesus said nothing about "making the Father look evil." That's your personal presumption, is it not? Indeed one does have the promise, but the passage in Luke directly states that one should ask. DID YOU EVER ASK? If you hadn't asked, aren't you merely presuming? I don't think we should be presumptuous about having received when we did not ask. I was saved for years before I asked. And when I did, I received.

I find numerous Christians running around presuming to have received the Holy Ghost, and yet when I ask, "How do you know? What's the difference? What's the change that makes the difference?" They have no answer - just a presumption that they automatically (somehow as if by magic) received such a thing upon repentance. But if there is no identifiable change, then nothing identifiable happened. Most often, though they describe a clean heart of repentance as proof, a thing that I don't find described in the New Testament texts as proof of the Baptism, just a proof of Repentance. And whenever a baptism of the Holy Spirit is described, tongues are present.

Indeed, ask and ye shall receive, but what did you ask for? Most Christians today deny all of the gifts. And it will be according to their faith.

Rhema

When one is saved, that is when they receive the Holy Spirit.

God gives His Spirit to His children.

We become a child of God's when we come to Jesus and change and become as a little child who ready is ready to obey everything Jesus says, we humble ourselves, confess our sins to him and repent of our sins, we crucify ourselves with Jesus by dying to the sins of the world and living to please Jesus.
We have faith that Jesus' shed blood on the cross washes and purifies us of the sins we repent of doing, and then we call on Jesus to help us, to save us, and that is when we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

I am quite familiar with the passage. Don't be dismissive. Indeed Paul was addressing corporate issues within a collective body of the church, but that doesn't mean the individual isn't edified when praying in tongues on his own. You've chosen to interpret this passage as a prohibition against tongues unless within a "church service" and with an "interpreter" present.

Yet you yourself highlighted:


But you've chosen to believe that tongues mean only foreign languages of men. But why would God even need "an interpreter" then? There would be no reason for God to give an utterance in tongues to anyone unless a foreigner is present, who then wouldn't need an interpreter, and most likely would think both people knew his or her language. So how is that even a "sign" to the unbeliever?


Yeah.. that doesn't make sense. (See reasons above.)

In addition, you stated, "it is about God speaking unto the people" and yet that's not what is written:

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

The text LITERALLY states that the speaker in tongues speaketh to God, not God speaking to men as you've posited. (That's a huge mistake, no?)

And I find that Paul did speak in tongues outside the church, as stated here: (please note the qualifier "yet")

(1 Corinthians 14:18-19 KJV~) I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet within the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.​

(1 Corinthians 14:39 KJV) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.​

Well... that word upon you've placed so much of your understanding - "withal" isn't in the Greek text. I would encourage you to look at a few other translations if you are unfamiliar with συμφέρω

(1 Corinthians 12:7 YLT) And to each hath been given the manifestation of the Spirit for profit;​

(1 Corinthians 12:7 DRB) And the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man unto profit.​

It's hard to achieve a right understanding with the wrong words. In the end, it is somewhat fruitless to discuss tongues with anyone who has not had the experience. Kind of like asking advice on how to fix your car with someone who is not even mechanically inclined.

Thanks,
Rhema

Speaking in tongues is speaking in foreign languages.


In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues…

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

In Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages…

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Just look at the list of places the Jews had come from…

Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

The miracle at Pentecost was when the Christians, who were Jews, spoke in tongues, and the Jews who gathered for Pentecost came from many other places and spoke in many other languages. They could understand what the Christian Jews were saying about God in their own language.


It was a sign to the Jews, the Jews who were from many different places where they spoke many different languages. See Isaiah 28:11 and 1 Corinthians 14:22.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

If the tongue speakers don't know what they are saying, their mind is fruitless.

It is important to realize that after the believers in the bible had the gift of speaking in tongues for the sign to the Jews…they kept the gift even when the Jews of other languages were not around. Therefore, the tongue speakers spoke only to God when they spoke in tongues they themselves did not understand and when no Jews from other languages were there, because, God, of course, can understand all the earthly languages the tongue speakers were speaking. How is that beneficial to anyone, even to the speaker when they can’t understand what they are saying?

Again, if there were no other people of other languages around to understand the tongue speaker, and if the tongue speaker themselves cannot interpret what they say and there was no other interpreter, then they are to be quiet and only speak to God, and this speaking edified (nurtured) only themselves. Only the real tongues were edifying. Tongue speaking edifies (nurtures) only the tongue speaker when no one understands because the tongue speaker feels blessed that God gave them an amazing gift. How greatly edifying it is for oneself just to have such a gift; that is the only way it edifies when you don’t understand what you are saying.

It is a false edification when one is trying to imitate the real tongues that ceased long ago.

 

[God's Truth]

Acts 2 was when His disciples were saved at Pentecost when the Church was born again of the Spirit because that was when Jesus said when believers will get born again of the spirit as happening after His ascension whic was after His crucifixion.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Again, the promise sent by the Father was when Jesus was no longer present with them but had ascended to the Father.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also....

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So some of His disciples getting the Holy Ghost in John 20:22 and earlier before His crucifixion in Matthew 10:1-20 was not the promise of the permanent indwelling holy Ghost. Just a temporary indwelling as they have not been bought with a price yet when Jesus has to ascend to the Father in Heaven to make all those that believe in Him citizens of Heaven. His ascension to God the Father in Heaven as God was why His disciples worshipped & glorified Him.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Luke 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy: 53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

This is why they were told to wait since they were not saved yet in being the sons of God to go out and preach the gospel so that they can share like testimony as others that are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, rather than by sight.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

They were saved in that they were promised the Holy Spirit. However, they still had to wait for the Holy Spirit, for they would be given power for their earthly ministry, as Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit with power when he started his earthly ministry.

 

[Rhema]

When one is saved, that is when they receive the Holy Spirit.

Yet weren't you once a believing Catholic? That changed, did it not? So why so sure now?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Speaking in tongues is speaking in foreign languages.

Why would one speak in (human) foreign languages to God?

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

Rhema

 

[God's Truth]

Yet weren't you once a believing Catholic? That changed, did it not? So why so sure now?

Thanks,
Rhema

I was raised Catholic, it was my life, until my mom was dying and the priest didn't get there soon enough to give her last rite. Catholics are taught that if you die with a certain sin and didn't confess to a priest before you die then you wouldn't get to go to be with Jesus. I then realized the Catholic denomination didn't have the truth. I told God I wanted His Truth and not some man's truth, and I told God I was going to search for Him. In the many years after that, I searched for God's Truth in many denominations. I invited the Jehovah Witnesses to teach me their beliefs; I also let the Mormons teach me theirs. I knew there were many denominations and one of them had to have the truth. I also searched for God's Truth in the Pentecostal, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Calvinism, Four Square, Word of Faith, etc. It took me a long time to find out that God's Truth isn't in a denomination.

The Way I received God's Truth and how Jesus became my Teacher was when I resigned to knowing nothing, got Jesus' teachings from the New Testament, and started doing what Jesus says to do to be saved. I have a powerful testimony of when I was saved. I received understanding at the moment I was saved, but that didn't mean I didn't have to be careful and watch my doctrine closely and study some things really hard.

I am no baby Christian anymore and the truth about speaking in tongues has been revealed to me. There was a time I was talked into believing I could speak in tongues and even interpret what I was saying. It was only after searching the scriptures to see if what I was taught was actually what the Word says is when I could see what I was taught was false.

I love talking about God's Truth and only started speaking about it to others is because I saw so many people online asking others questions about God, and other people giving wrong answers. I thought I could help people get closer to God by showing them God's Truth in the scriptures. However, most people have only been cruel about my trying to help.

 

[God's Truth]

Why would one speak in (human) foreign languages to God?

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

Rhema

I explained it to you, but looks like you didn't see it.

After the believers in the bible had the gift of speaking in tongues for the sign to the Jews…they kept the gift even when the Jews of other languages were not around. Therefore, the tongue speakers spoke only to God when they spoke in tongues they themselves did not understand and when no Jews from other languages were there, because, God, of course, can understand all the earthly languages the tongue speakers were speaking. How is that beneficial to anyone, even to the speaker when they can’t understand what they are saying?

Again, if there were no other people of other languages around to understand the tongue speaker, and if the tongue speaker themselves cannot interpret what they say and there was no other interpreter, then they are to be quiet and only speak to God, and this speaking edified (nurtured) only themselves. Only the real tongues were edifying. Tongue speaking edifies (nurtures) only the tongue speaker when no one understands because the tongue speaker feels blessed that God gave them an amazing gift. How greatly edifying it is for oneself just to have such a gift; that is the only way it edifies when you don’t understand what you are saying.

It is a false edification when one is trying to imitate the real tongues that ceased long ago.

 

[God's Truth]

@Rhema

Tongues aren't a special "prayer language" for private prayer times.

Those practicing the false tongue speaking believe they are speaking a special "prayer language", and that in this type of praying it is somehow deeper and more personal than praying with their native language with words they understand. However, that is not scriptural, and that even goes against the Word of God which says you will have a fruitless mind if you pray like that. Surely, a fruitless mind is not something one should be aiming for in personal prayer times.

Tongues aren't a special prayer language, Speaking in tongues is speaking in languages, and, a person who could speak in tongues/languages, they could do anything while speaking in tongues, like pray, sing, bless...everything a person speaking in their own language can do in the Spirit. Some, though, however, are making it as if praying when no one understands is a special prayer language. That is not what the scriptures are saying. Speaking in tongues while praying when you don't understand is fruitless.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

1 Corinthians 14:15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

Surely a fruitless mind is not something to aim for at anytime.

 

[GodB4Us]

They were saved in that they were promised the Holy Spirit.

They were not His until they were born again of the Spirit at Pentecost.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Jesus had explained to Nicodemus for when that born again of the Spirit would take place as happening after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for whenever any one believes in Jesus Christ to be saved.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

However, they still had to wait for the Holy Spirit, for they would be given power for their earthly ministry, as Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit with power when he started his earthly ministry.

I disagree since Jesus was ministering at the age of twelve even.

Luke 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. 43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. 44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. 45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. 46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. 47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. 49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? 50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

I believe the point of Matthew 3:13-18 was about the fulfillment of the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 in fulfilling all righteousness when God the Father spoke from heaven regarding His Son and the Holy Spirit adding witness to the Father's testimony as the Lord God and His spirit sent Jesus, God our Redeemer.

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.