Questions About Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith

[God's Truth]

Perhaps you could describe this in more detail in an Introduction thread.

I think it would be too long of a testimony for an introduction thread, and not sure anyone would read such a long personal testimony. I started writing it some years ago. Maybe I will finish it and post it somewhere. Thanks for the interest.

Well that's unfortunate. But I would caution you to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. But it's likely, though, that you hadn't received the gift of tongues to begin with if such was the case. I know of what you speak, though, and such behaviour by some is unconscionable.

Why do you say unconscionable?

And yet my experience was the opposite.

You probably grew up in the Pentecostal church and had seen many people all of a sudden speak in tongues?

The scriptures showed me that what I learned (and experienced) was not false.

I'd like to discuss that with you, but I think we probably did at length some years ago, right? I recognized your name.

This "truth" ... was this what you had posted? Or is there more to come?

I have a lot more things to say about speaking in tongues. There are a couple of threads on this site where I already posted, but don't mind talking about it again with you.

To be honest, I think it more in the manner in which you attempt to bring help.

You will say something negative about me no matter what, because I go against your beliefs. Before I was saved I had people telling me things too about me and my beliefs, and I am so glad I stayed humble and listened. My conscientious is clear as for how I attempt to bring help, for I know I am careful with how I speak to others.

Since the Reformation, when Salvation was redefined to be based upon what a person believes (as opposed to what a person does), then the very core identity of a person is challenged when those beliefs are challenged. In other words, to challenge a belief is now seen as an attack upon the person. And nobody likes that.

I don't get what you are saying. As for nobody likes that...there isn't a kinder more careful poster on any site that I have been, and there have been many.

Rhema
(I miss your warrior picture.)

Thanks! I had that one warrior picture probably twelve years and used it on a few different sites. When I joined this site, it automatically put the picture I have on my wordpress site.

 

[God's Truth]

Well, I can say the same thing.

We have a direct statement by Paul -

(1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.​

This type of "speaking in tongues," then, is NOT speaking unto men, but unto God. It Literally says that. It also literally states that "no man" can understand such a tongue, so it couldn't mean "human language" or we have a bizarre picture that there is some human language that no man can understand. And that doesn't make sense.
I realize that you have defined "tongues" to mean only human languages, but that's not rational in light of Paul's declaration that some speak a tongue that no man understandeth and that such speech is one that "speaketh unto God."

Rhema

When no one is around who understands, then it is an unknown tongue. You are only speaking to God when no one else understands because God understands all earthly languages.

 

[God's Truth]

Two things.

Speaking in tongues while praying is NOT fruitless.

Paul says plainly that it is.

While such a person might not understand what he or she is saying, don't you think God does?

Of course God understands all languages.

If God understands what you are then praying, how could that be represented as "fruitless"?

It is fruitless to the speaker.

Paul directly stated "I will pray with my spirit." You seem to object to this.

No I do not object to it at all to what he says. He says pray in tongues but to interpret.

Paul did not. Indeed you should pray with your understanding, but ALSO pray with your spirit. You have denied this, and so according to your faith, it has been.

Rhema

Paul isn't saying to pray without understanding for a fruitless mind and to also pray at other times with understanding. Again, he is saying if you pray in a tongue then interpret what you are saying, for yourself.

 

[God's Truth]

Perhaps God does. Some teach Satan doesn't know what is spoken in tongues.

1Cor 13:1; If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Right. I heard that too. Satan was an angel, so if tongues is the language of angels, then Satan would know what they are saying.

 

[GodB4Us]

I gave you the scriptures about the Apostles belonging to God and Jesus not losing one!
You really want to pretend you weren't taught something? You said they weren't saved until Pentecost. I gave you those scriptures that you are acting like you are using to prove something you were against.

Then explain Jesus's words about losing Judas Iscariot at the ed of verse 12.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

This prayer was before His betrayal also. All of this was said in past tense and yet it had not happened yet. So I see Him speaking in future tense in aligning with His words for when His remaining disciples would receive the promise of the holy Spirit from the father at their salvation moment as born again of the Spirit at Pentecost when Jesus was no longer with them physically but had ascended to the Father.

 

[GodB4Us]

Perhaps God does. Some teach Satan doesn't know what is spoken in tongues.

1Cor 13:1; If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

@God's Truth @Rookster

In context, especially when you apply the latter end of that verse, Paul is using hyperbole to demonstrate the extreme examples of showing in spite of them, how important it is to have love. Other exaggerated examples to illustrate this are:

1 Corinthians 13:1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Did Paul remove mountains by faith? No. Did Paul bestow all his goods to feed the poor and have his body to be burned? No. So neither is there an actual tongue of angels for people to be speaking in when angels understand us anyway and so does the devil.

And the Book of Job is why there is no need for a secret language as if the devil can undermine God answering prayers when the devil needs permission from God to do anything to Job. God is God and the devil is not a "god".

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

When this is written;

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

What need is there for a secret language as if the devil can do anything about it when we prayed normally?

But the devil would like to interrupt us from praying with his babbling nonsense so that we do not ask the Lord in prayer normally to get an answer from our prayers to give the father thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[God's Truth]

That was not the born again of the Spirit moment for the Holy Spirit to indwell forever as promised as to be given from the Father when that can only occur after His ascension.

No one can lose their salvation because of John 6:39.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore Judas Iscariot was never a believer and neither had he witnessed His ascension into Heaven when Jesus was glorified as God for Judas Iscariot to be around for Pentecost to be born again of the Spirit when the Church was born.

You only prove what I said and disprove what you said.

 

[God's Truth]

Again; Jesus told Nicodemus when the Born again of the Spirit will happen and that is after His ascension which was after His crucifixion for when any one believes in Him for eternal life. That means His disciples did not receive the promise of the "permanent" indwelling holy Ghost until Pentecost.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Don't forget that Judas Iscariot also had this temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 10:1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.....

18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Again, He told His disciples when they will get the forever indwelling holy Ghost was when he had gone to the Father.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So His remaining disciples were not saved until Pentecost for when the Church was born.

They were saved. You have to know that you are wrong and are just desperately trying to hang onto your false beliefs. Give it up for God's Truth and not man's truth.

 

[GodB4Us]

They were saved. You have to know that you are wrong and are just desperately trying to hang onto your false beliefs. Give it up for God's Truth and not man's truth.

John 3:7-18 & John 14:1-3, John 14:16-17,& John 14:25-26 says you are wrong because the born again of the Spirit moment can only occur when Jesus was no longer present with them but has gone to the Father above for when the Father will send the promise of the Holy Spirit to any one that believes in Jesus Christ at Pentecost and thereafter.

Giving yourself the nickname of God's Truth can be seen as boasting of oneself, brother And acting as if you are perfect and unable to teach error, pride does come before the fall, but I doubt this rebuke in Christ's love will faze you at all.

Still, God can perform miracles sometimes so I shall send a prayer up for you as well as for me since I know I am not perfect yet either.

 

[God's Truth]

Then explain Jesus's words about losing Judas Iscariot at the ed of verse 12.

Jesus says Judas was a devil.

John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

This prayer was before His betrayal also.

And? How do you think that changes anything?

All of this was said in past tense and yet it had not happened yet.

What?

So I see Him speaking in future tense in aligning with His words for when His remaining disciples would receive the promise of the holy Spirit from the father at their salvation moment as born again of the Spirit at Pentecost when Jesus was no longer with them physically but had ascended to the Father.

What you say isn't logical.
You say the Apostles were not saved because they had to first wait until Pentecost.
However, even Abraham and the other righteous were considered saved and they had not all received the Holy Spirit for belief in the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[Samson2020]

However, even Abraham and the other righteous were considered saved and they had not all received the Holy Spirit for belief in the shed blood of Jesus.

Well they believed God and it was accounted to them for righteousness. But Jesus said that no greater man was born of a woman than John the Baptist but even the least
IN THE KINGDOM was greater than He.
Does that don't signify that they were not going to be in the kingdom during this first dispensation? After all without the Spirit ye are none of His, and the Spirit was not given until
after His death and resurrection.
One could argue that they received the Spirit after they died when Christ preahced the gospel to the dead but that doesn't really line up with the thought that faith must be exercised
while alive, as it is now.

 

[God's Truth]

@God's Truth @Rookster

In context, especially when you apply the latter end of that verse, Paul is using hyperbole to demonstrate the extreme examples of showing in spite of them, how important it is to have love. Other exaggerated examples to illustrate this are:

1 Corinthians 13:1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Did Paul remove mountains by faith? No. Did Paul bestow all his goods to feed the poor and have his body to be burned? No. So neither is there an actual tongue of angels for people to be speaking in when angels understand us anyway and so does the devil.

And the Book of Job is why there is no need for a secret language as if the devil can undermine God answering prayers when the devil needs permission from God to do anything to Job. God is God and the devil is not a "god".

Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

When this is written;

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

What need is there for a secret language as if the devil can do anything about it when we prayed normally?

But the devil would like to interrupt us from praying with his babbling nonsense so that we do not ask the Lord in prayer normally to get an answer from our prayers to give the father thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers.

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

You seem to be missing something.

At Pentecost, the Apostles were speaking in tongues, and there were many people from many different places who had many different foreign languages who heard them speaking in their language.


In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues…

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

In Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages…

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Just look at the list of places the Jews had come from…

Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

There were twelve Apostles and more than twelve different foreign languages being heard.

The miracle at Pentecost was when the Christians, who were Jews, spoke in tongues, and the Jews who gathered for Pentecost came from many other places and spoke in many other languages. They could understand what the Christian Jews were saying about God in their own language.

Angels are to minister to humans, and humans are to understand angels in human languages, earthly languages.

Hebrews 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

So even if the biblical speaking in tongues did not sound like any earthly language to those not given to hear and understand, the tongues that people were speaking were still heard and understood as different earthly foreign languages….by the foreigners themselves (see Acts 2:6 and 2:11).

Again, the language angels need to minister to us is with our earthly languages. Therefore, like the foreigners in the Bible who understood those speaking in tongues in their native language, we too would need to understand in our language what the angels were saying to us.

 

[God's Truth]

John 3:7-18 & John 14:1-3, John 14:16-17,& John 14:25-26 says you are wrong because the born again of the Spirit moment can only occur when Jesus was no longer present with them but has gone to the Father above for when the Father will send the promise of the Holy Spirit to any one that believes in Jesus Christ at Pentecost and thereafter.

Giving yourself the nickname of God's Truth can be seen as boasting of oneself, brother

Here comes the jealousy and the accusations.

You know who that sounds like don't you, brother?

And acting as if you are perfect and unable to teach error, pride does come before the fall, but I doubt this rebuke in Christ's love will faze you at all.

Still, God can perform miracles sometimes so I shall send a prayer up for you as well as for me since I know I am not perfect yet either.

You still made the jealous false accusation.

 

[God's Truth]

Well they believed God and it was accounted to them for righteousness. But Jesus said that no greater man was born of a woman than John the Baptist but even the least
IN THE KINGDOM was greater than He.
Does that don't signify that they were not going to be in the kingdom during this first dispensation?

They were still considered children of God.
When they died, they didn't go to the same place as the disobedient.
In that sense, they were saved.
However, of course, no one is made holy and perfect until they have faith in the shed blood of Jesus.

After all without the Spirit ye are none of His, and the Spirit was not given until
after His death and resurrection.
One could argue that they received the Spirit after they died when Christ preahced the gospel to the dead but that doesn't really line up with the thought that faith must be exercised
while alive, as it is now.

 

[PloughBoy]

The difference in the English words “accounted” and “Imputed” or biblical “Imputed righteousness”:


Some common synonyms of impute are ascribe, assign, attribute, and credit. While all these words mean "to lay something to the account of a person or thing," impute suggests ascribing something that brings discredit by way of accusation or blame.”

“Imputed righteousness is a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.”

King James Bible
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

New King James Version
And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

New American Standard Bible
Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

It does not mean they where “Righteous”. But credit as righteous.

And don’t say it is the same thing because it is not!

Example for the dull ears or in Laymen Terms:

You go buy a new car, you cannot get it your credit is not good enough! They tell you, you need a “Co-Signer”. He or she co-signs, now they are responsible for The Debt when you don’t pay or cannot pay the Debt! Jesus has paid the Debt, so when you die or whatever, The Wages of Your sins has been paid in full And has been Recorded in The Book! Paid in full!

Because the “wages of Sin is Death” He died in your place!

And you live because; He lives! Because if He Did Not Get Up

 

[GodB4Us]

Jesus says Judas was a devil.

And yet He lost him. How?

And? How do you think that changes anything?

How can the others be saved before Pentecost when He can lose none of all the Father has given Him per John 6:39 and yet He lost Judas Iscariot? So Judas Iscariot was never saved for when he was lost and that also has to include His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was no longer present with them, when at Pentecost, the remaining disciples were born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ as that was when the Church was born.

That is what He told His disciples in John 14:1-3 for when He would leave, that the holy Spirit from the Father will be sent in John 14:16-17 when He was no longer present with them John 14:25-26.

That is when Jesus told Nicodemus when the born again of the Spirit would take place after His ascension verse 13 which was after His crucifixion in verse 14 for whomever believes in Him would be saved. John 3:7-16

So His disciples were not saved before Pentecost, but at Pentecost. That is the truth from His words.

 

[GodB4Us]

Here comes the jealousy and the accusations.

You know who that sounds like don't you, brother?

You still made the jealous false accusation.

Kind of hard to miss, brother.

They were saved. You have to know that you are wrong and are just desperately trying to hang onto your false beliefs. Give it up for God's Truth and not man's truth.

Also I cannot be jealous if you are wrong about this, just as you are wrong about His disciples being saved before Pentecost while in the physical presence of Jesus Christ while He was still on earth before His ascension.

Even if you had not meant to boast in regards to your nickname, you have to admit you gave the appearance of evil there as if by that foot of pride, brother.

 

[God's Truth]

And yet He lost him. How?

He was lost because he was a devil and would not repent of his sins and was chosen for the fulfillment of the scriptures.

How can the others be saved before Pentecost when He can lose none of all the Father has given Him per John 6:39 and yet He lost Judas Iscariot?

So Judas Iscariot was never saved for when he was lost and that also has to include His disciples were not saved yet until Jesus was no longer present with them,

Only Judas was lost.

when at Pentecost, the remaining disciples were born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ as that was when the Church was born.

Judas was replaced with another Apostle.

That is what He told His disciples in John 14:1-3 for when He would leave, that the holy Spirit from the Father will be sent in John 14:16-17 when He was no longer present with them John 14:25-26.

That is when Jesus told Nicodemus when the born again of the Spirit would take place after His ascension verse 13 which was after His crucifixion in verse 14 for whomever believes in Him would be saved. John 3:7-16

So His disciples were not saved before Pentecost, but at Pentecost. That is the truth from His words.

Jesus says they were NOT lost, they obeyed and Jesus kept them safe, they were promised the Holy Spirit.
They belonged to the Father and were called children of God before Jesus came.
They were not condemned.

 

[God's Truth]

Kind of hard to miss, brother.

Also I cannot be jealous if you are wrong about this, just as you are wrong about His disciples being saved before Pentecost while in the physical presence of Jesus Christ while He was still on earth before His ascension.

You are wrong about a lot of things, and you are jealous, it is not hard to miss.

Even if you had not meant to boast in regards to your nickname, you have to admit you gave the appearance of evil there as if by that foot of pride, brother.

What do you think you are teaching? Do you think you are teaching God's Truth? Yes or no.

 

[B-A-C]

Judas was replaced with another Apostle.

Which one? Matthias is named as an apostle.
Paul is named as an apostle.
..and so is Barnabas.