Rapture event - Poll

[KingJ]

If someone believes that Christ's Church/Body/Bride will go through the Trib in order to get purified, they clearly lack faith in Jesus to have dealt with our sin problem. And this exposes them as phony Christians seeing as they don't have faith in Jesus to have dealt with our sin problem on the cross. And if you lack faith in Jesus, you cannot be saved because we are saved according to our faith in Jesus.

The bowwow was not a part of the Church/Body/Bride. He's clearly a wolf with a poor lamb disguise. He showed his teeth to prove this.

Agreed. I would just be a lot more understanding and merciful on bowwow.

I personally know a once great man of God who has completely fallen out with God. I have no doubt that God still loves this person and the person will end up in heaven. But that person does not serve God and would certainly be called a wolf in sheep's clothing if he were on this site.

God sees into the depths of our hearts and minds. Our daily, weekly and for some even yearly mood swings do not dictate who we are to God. God is not a fool!

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve

I would bet on bowwow making it to heaven and having tea and biscuits with you, I and God at His table in a few years time .

 

[Still Learning]

Agreed. I would just be a lot more understanding and merciful on bowwow.

I personally know a once great man of God who has completely fallen out with God. I have no doubt that God still loves this person and the person will end up in heaven. But that person does not serve God and would certainly be called a wolf in sheep's clothing if he were on this site.

God sees into the depths of our hearts and minds. Our daily, weekly and for some even yearly mood swings do not dictate who we are to God. God is not a fool!

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve

I would bet on bowwow making it to heaven and having tea and biscuits with you, I and God at His table in a few years time .

I hope you're right, but Jesus gives me reason to doubt. As far as I've been able to see, those who falsely teach self-righteousness to be saved were the only people Jesus was ever angry with. And every idle word they've said will be held against them. I've certainly said some things that deserve judgment. But because I have been given the righteousness of God, they won't be held against me. Again, as far as I can see, the self-righteous law teachers like bowwow who will be condemned. I believe this is why God teaches us, in the very first book written of all the books in the Bible, how bad self-righteousness is through Job's painful lesson regarding his self-righteousness.

• How terrible it will be for you, teachers of the law and Pharisees! You pretenders! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter. And you will not let those enter who are trying to. How terrible for you, teachers of the law and Pharisees! You pretenders! You travel everywhere to win one person to your faith. Then you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:13-15)

Now, Job got his heart/mind adjusted, and was blessed in the end. So maybe we should pray that God gives bowwow the Job treatment for his own good. I'll gladly pray for that.

 

[Still Learning]

A non-OSAS belief is a works based salvation.

Now matter how you slice it, if salvation can be lost, then the only people who get saved will be those who deserve to be saved. And that is the exact opposite of salvation being God's gift of grace to those who simply accept the gift through faith that Jesus bought it for us.

 

[Still Learning]

What scripture are you referring to here?

If you are referring to Heb 10:14 which I assume you are, you are incorrect to group ''purifying'' with ''sanctification''.

Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Note the ''he has perfected for all time''. The first part of this passage refers to purifying. By a single offering He has 'perfectly purified'. The context of sanctification here is, already perfected Christians go from glory to glory. Sanctification here has absolutely nothing to do with salvation and or purification.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

From glory to glory we become more like God. When we are first saved, we are made perfect to God by the offering of Jesus. We are then washed daily to be more like God. Closer to God. Completely separate matter from initial salvation / purification!!

Your non-OSAS insertions into scripture are taking place here. I am always weary of posts that contain no scriptures.



Correct and this is 100% true. We see this with the thief next to Jesus on the cross.

This should lead us to conclude that if in fact we are not taken to heaven, God desires for us to serve Him on earth. He needs us to reach the lost for Him. Talking donkeys can do the trick, but are most certainly His last resort.

Rom 12:11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.

If at any point we die, we die in Christ and will go straight to heaven.

2 Cor 5:8 we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



Care how you word that. A non-OSAS belief is a works based salvation. Imagine teaching that after reading Heb 10:14.

If you disagree, I want you to know that after being on this site for many years, I have yet to read a single non-OSAS believer make a sound case for their salvation not being works based. So, good luck with that.

If you ''don't'' grow stronger in Christ, if you ''fall'' in your trial, eternal hell for your sorry soul = non-OSAS. Convince me otherwise, go floor is yours....



Agree 100%. Now why do you believe in non-OSAS after that statement?



Agreed. No need for heated lines on this topic.



Agree 100%. Now why do you believe in non-OSAS after that statement?



Agreed.

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Brother Dave, we need to be so careful on our wording with regards to purification, sanctification and salvation. We can so easily stumble someone weak in their faith.

The space that non-OSAS should ''keep to'' is the following:

1 Cor 10:12 clearly says ''So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!''.

We can think we are saved and not be saved. That should be the the A-Z of a non-OSAS belief.

The moment 'you guys' start teaching 'more', you end up tainting God as a fool who does not truly love or trust us. Leaving Christians very insecure and confused. Non-OSAS implies:

1. God is a fool who cannot properly vet a person.
2. We need to be terrified of eternal punishment in hell, even if we have given our life to Jesus
3. We need to avoid witnessing in areas where we can fall into sin. Leave that to those who are fine with eternal fire.
4. We need to witness to people in dangerous areas, the sooner we die the better our odds of getting to heaven.
5. We need to keep working to stay saved, else we may go to hell. Works based salvation > true conversion and faith in Jesus.

On another forum, I was challenged by a person who used Hebrews 6:4-6 as his proof text that we could lose our salvation. Admittedly, it is one of the more difficult passages to understand if you reject the eternal security that we have due to having been given ETERNAL life. But if you can accept that eternal life is eternal, then it's not too hard to understand this passage correctly. Below is the response I gave him. It explains that there are different aspects to our relationship with God that a lot of people aren't aware of, and why it's vitally important to understand these different aspects.

Your view of Hebrews 6:4-6 would mean that once a person is saved, if they committed sin, then there is no longer any way for them to repent and be saved again. Do you grasp just how ungodly and anti-grace your thinking is??? Does that sound like the God of Love that Christianity worships??? No. It definitely doesn't.

Let me start by showing you how that passage is NOT dealing with salvation/union with the Lord. It is talking about the things that ACCOMPANY salvation/union with the Lord. And the thing that ACCOMPANIES salvation/union with the Lord is the new found privilege to have FELLOWSHIP/COMMUNION with the Lord when you get born again. We CAN'T fall away from salvation/union with the Lord because He promises not lose a single one of us, but we CAN fall away from having FELLOWSHIP/COMMUNION with the Lord when we do wrong things.

• For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to be renewed once more to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and subject Him to public shame... But though we speak in this manner, we are persuaded of better things for you, things that ACCOMPANY salvation. (Hebrews 6:4-6,9)

The short teaching is that if a person is saved, then when they do something sinful, it is impossible to restore their fellowship/communion with God by performing the twice daily lamb sacrifices which the Law instructs. Those sacrifices foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus, and now that Jesus has arrived, those lamb sacrifices for sin are obsolete. And if "a Christian" goes and makes those lamb sacrifices for sins, it's as if they are crucifying Jesus over and over again. And this would be a public shaming of Jesus, as if His one time sacrifice for sins didn't do the job of paying for all of their sins once for all time as is claimed by Christians.

• Then he said, “Look, I have come to do your will.” He cancels the first covenant in order to put the second into effect. For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, ONCE FOR ALL TIME. (Hebrews 10:9-10)

The letter to the Hebrews is God’s bridge from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. It was written to Jews who were newly converted to Christianity, and they were being subjected to severe persecution from the Jews, to the point that they were totally ostracized from society and couldn't interact with most of the Jews whom they had previously been able to interact with so that they could conduct business with and other such necessities. These new Hebrew Christians were under intense pressure to go back under the Old Covenant Law so that they could interact with their families and business associates and such who were shunning them completely out of society. Everything in the letter has to be understood from that perspective, because their lives were extremely difficult ever since they converted to Christianity, to the point that they were tempted to leave Christianity, which would certainly destroy the fellowship/communion aspects of their relationship with the Lord.

Now here's some more information that needs to be understood. I've been touching on this, but here I'll go into a more in-depth explanation for you.

There are two facets/aspects to our relationship with God. There is union/salvation with the Lord, which happens at the moment of belief and guarantees our secure eternity of eternal life with the Lord (2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30). And there is communion/fellowship with the Lord, which is the ability to dwell in the Lord's presence and communicate with Him in the here and now (John 15:4-5). Salvation/union is unconditional and is based only on our belief/faith/trust in the Lord to save us. Fellowship/communion is conditional and is based on our behavior/obedience. Don't forget this. Keep these categories separate because this division is vital to rightly dividing the Word of Truth. It's very important to get this correct or there will literally be Hell to pay due to you ending up with a misplaced faith that would be placed in your behavior to save you. And, trust me, no one can be saved that way.

• The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. (Psalm 14:2-3)

• We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight. We all wither like a leaf; our sins carry us away like the wind. (Isaiah 64:6)

Okay, now that you have that fact shown to you, try to follow along with the rest of what I'm going to show you, because this is one of the more difficult passages to understand properly.

Again, the context of Hebrews chapter 6 is regarding interrupting our fellowship/communion with the Lord. It's not about losing our salvation/union. The key is the phrase “to be renewed once more to repentance” which is simply saying "to restore their fellowship/communion with the Lord."

As I stated earlier, new Jewish believers were being pressured into going back under the Old Covenant Law, especially where it concerned the twice daily lamb sacrifice for sin. Those who relied on the twice daily lamb sacrifice instead of invoking 1 John 1:9 (confessing directly to God) were in effect crucifying the Lord ALL OVER AGAIN, which would bring shame to the reputation of Jesus because it would make it appear that His death wasn't sufficient to deal with their sin problem and was leaving them unperfected by His sacrifice instead of perfected (free from sin). Since Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, crucifying Him again and again for sins is a horrible misrepresentation of Jesus' one time sacrifice.

• With one sacrifice, he has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin. (Hebrews 10:14)

Again, we see that the daily sacrifice was a foreshadowing of Jesus, and when He came, the shadow gave way to the reality. The Old Covenant way was no longer sufficient to restore them to fellowship/communion with the Lord (Hebrews 10:1-18).

Now, since 1 John 1:9 says that confession brings forgiveness and purification from all unrighteousness (renewal again to repentance), then by implication, anything other than confessing our sins prevents forgiveness and purification and causes us to FALL AWAY from FELLOWSHIP/COMMUNION with the Lord. Our salvation/union with the Lord isn't revoked, but because God can’t be in the presence of sin, it does suspend our fellowship/communion with him, depriving us of blessings we could have otherwise had.

So, there are many clear verses, a bunch of which I have cited in my other posts, that unequivocally promise eternal security. And since the Bible cannot contradict itself and still be the Word of God, interpreting Hebrews chapter 6 as having anything to do with losing our salvation/union with the Lord is a violation of the rules of interpretation, which teaches that we’re to use clear verses, like the many verses I've been citing to you for years, now, to interpret obscure more difficult ones like Hebrews 6:4-6, not the other way around like you're trying to do.

So, if what I've spelled out for you, hasn't convinced you that the passage isn't talking about salvation, just read verse 9 over and over until you get it in your understanding that the passage is NOT about salvation loss, but is about the loss of things that ACCOMPANY salvation. The loss of things like fellowship/communion with the Lord, the rewards, blessings, and prizes for doing the good works that we were created in Christ to do. Those are all things we fall away from when we disobey the Lord.

• God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has CREATED US ANEW in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

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[Still Learning]

you make claims and assumptions that are just plain wrong. We all need purifying

You are projecting your own faults onto me and you need to repent.

Christians had all of their sins removed and paid for by Jesus on the cross. If you believe Jesus hasn't purified us of our sins, then you lack the required saving faith in Jesus to have done what He came here to do, and that is to destroy the works of the devil (sin) in our lives. Once we've believed and been born again of God, all of our sin problem has forever been dealt with by Jesus. He makes us free from sin. So, if He makes us free from sin, exactly what is it we need to be purified from? And if YOU have sin, you need to pay attention to what the Scriptures have to say about you.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)​

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Now see what the Scriptures have to say about me.

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Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he CANNOT SIN, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)​

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By his one sacrifice he has FOREVER SET FREE FROM SIN the people he brings to God. (Hebrews 10:14)​

Now YOU ARE SET FREE FROM SIN and are slaves who please God. (Romans 6:18)​

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Please stop bearing false witness against me by projecting your own faults onto me. It's not of God, but is of the other guy. So stop it.

 

[Dave M]

You are projecting your own faults onto me and you need to repent.

Christians had all of their sins removed and paid for by Jesus on the cross. If you believe Jesus hasn't purified us of our sins, then you lack the required saving faith in Jesus to have done what He came here to do, and that is to destroy the works of the devil (sin) in our lives. Once we've believed and been born again of God, all of our sin problem has forever been dealt with by Jesus. He makes us free from sin. So, if He makes us free from sin, exactly what is it we need to be purified from? And if YOU have sin, you need to pay attention to what the Scriptures have to say about you.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8)​

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Now see what the Scriptures have to say about me.

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Whoever has been born of God DOES NOT SIN, for His seed remains in him; and he CANNOT SIN, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:9)​

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By his one sacrifice he has FOREVER SET FREE FROM SIN the people he brings to God. (Hebrews 10:14)​

Now YOU ARE SET FREE FROM SIN and are slaves who please God. (Romans 6:18)​

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Please stop bearing false witness against me by projecting your own faults onto me. It's not of God, but is of the other guy. So stop it.

I leave you with the words of my Lord and savior maybe you will meditate on them, I encourage you to . Perhaps you can tell me who do yourself see in this parable, I am the later for sure.

Luke 18:9-14​

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

 

[KingJ]

I leave you with the words of my Lord and savior maybe you will meditate on them, I encourage you to . Perhaps you can tell me who do yourself see in this parable, I am the later for sure.

Luke 18:9-14​

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

If only that verse was the A-Z teaching of non-OSAS, there would be zero argument on the topic .

 

[Still Learning]

I leave you with the words of my Lord and savior maybe you will meditate on them, I encourage you to . Perhaps you can tell me who do yourself see in this parable, I am the later for sure.

Luke 18:9-14​

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ ...

You're still projecting your own faults. I have NEVER claimed that the righteousness I have is from myself. It is God's/Christ's righteousness that is imputed to me. I'm the one that went home justified before God because I admitted that I WAS a sinner. But I have been born again of God and no longer live in the Old Covenant realm of the flesh where we cannot help but sin. I live in Christ's New Covenant of the Spirit where I'm born again of God And have been given Christ's/God's righteousness and in the realm of the Spirit I it is impossible to sin. You need to meditate on this. If you don't possess Christ's perfect righteousness, then that proves you're not in Christ. Your spirit is of a dark holier than thou pride.

 

[Still Learning]

If only that verse was the A-Z teaching of non-OSAS, there would be zero argument on the topic .

Our righteous God has made a way for us to ALWAYS do what is right. And we HAVE victory IN CHRIST.

If anyone wants to be right with God and to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then they'll need to die to the Law and the realm of the flesh, and be born again of God's Holy Spirit. Here's how to stop sinning the way we are told to in the Scriptures. It's very different from the way so many self-righteous pride filled people tell me how to stop sinning. But here is the biblical way to stop sinning.

YOU MUST BE BLAMELESS before the Lord your God. (Deuteronomy 18:13)

BE PERFECT, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

When Jesus had lifted up himself again, and saw no man, but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: GO AND SIN NO MORE. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am that light of the world: he that followeth me, shall NOT walk in darkness, but shall have that light OF LIFE. (John 8:10-12)

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. FOR THIS PURPOSE the Son of God was manifested, that He might DESTROY the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin, for His seed remains in him; AND HE CANNOT SIN, BECAUSE HE HAS BEEN BORN AGAIN OF GOD. (1 John 3:8-9)

It's very clear that we are not to sin. And it's very clear that this can be accomplished by being born again of God's Spirit into the realm of the Spirit which is Christ's New Covenant of the Spirit where we have died to the realm of the flesh's Old Covenant 10 Commandments/Law which is a ministry of death and condemnation. Christ's New Covenant of the Spirit is a ministry of eternal life and perfect righteousness.

He has enabled us to be ministers of HIS NEW COVENANT. This is a covenant NOT of written laws, BUT OF THE SPIRIT. The old written covenant ENDS IN DEATH; but UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE. The old way, WITH LAWS ETCHED IN STONE, LED TO DEATH, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life? If the old way, which brings CONDEMNATION, was glorious, HOW MUCH MORE GLORIOUS IS THE NEW WAY, WHICH MAKES US RIGHT WITH GOD! (2 Corinthians 3:6-9)

 

[Dave M]

You're still projecting your own faults. I have NEVER claimed that the righteousness I have is from myself. It is God's/Christ's righteousness that is imputed to me. I'm the one that went home justified before God because I admitted that I WAS a sinner. But I have been born again of God and no longer live in the Old Covenant realm of the flesh where we cannot help but sin. I live in Christ's New Covenant of the Spirit where I'm born again of God And have been given Christ's/God's righteousness and in the realm of the Spirit I it is impossible to sin. You need to meditate on this. If you don't possess Christ's perfect righteousness, then that proves you're not in Christ. Your spirit is of a dark holier than thou pride.

I agree with most of what you said, no need for accusations in every post

 

[Still Learning]

I agree with most of what you said, no need for accusations in every post

Take your own advice.

 

[Butch5]

This debate really bewilders me. It seems pretty straight forward.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:21–31.

 

[Still Learning]

This debate really bewilders me. It seems pretty straight forward.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:21–31.

I see that you've cited Matthew chapter 24 in the context of the rapture happening at the 2nd coming event. If you would read that chapter a little bit further, you would see that when certain people are "taken" away, that it is referring to how things will be like in the days of Noah when people were swept away to their destruction, and that's how it will it be at the 2nd coming when people are "taken" away to their destruction. And that's NOT the rapture event that Paul teaches about where believers are caught up to be with Jesus forever. Big big difference.

Here's the 2nd coming event:

Now —neither the angels of heaven nor the Son —except the Father alone. As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark. They didn’t know until the flood came and swept them all away. This is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding grain with a hand mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore be alert, since you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. (Matthew 24:36-42)​

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As you can see, the unsuspecting damned were suddenly taken away to their destruction in the days of Noah. And that is how it will be at the 2nd coming, also. The unsuspecting damned will suddenly be taken to their destruction.

But the rapture event is very different from the 2nd coming event which is like the days of Noah when people were taken to their destruction. At the rapture event, the people who are taken, are taken to be with Jesus in His Heavenly Kingdom, not to their destruction like in the days of Noah. The rapture event is an encouraging message to hear if you're one of those who will be taken. But the 2nd coming event is not encouraging to hear about if you're to be one of those who will be taken.

Here's the rapture event:

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD in the air. And so WE WILL BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER. Therefore ENCOURAGE one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:14-18)​

I hope this helps you see the truth that's being taught in Matthew chapters 24 and 25. At the 2nd coming event, it's the damned who are taken to their destruction while the righteous stay and enter the Millennial Kingdom Age. To those being taken at the 2nd coming event, it's not an encouraging message to hear if you're one who will be taken. But at the rapture event, it certainly is an encouraging thing for those who will be taken. You shouldn't be bewildered anymore. You should know better, now, than you did before.

 

[KingJ]

This debate really bewilders me. It seems pretty straight forward.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is the 'most terrifying' period in human history because both the devil and God take part.

God uses the devil to filter good people from bad for 3.5 years, then God filters with His seven trumpets and bowl judgements for the next 3.5.

Now, imagine God leaving us with the devil. All alone. At his full mercy. Worse than with Job. Job could not be killed. Imagine the devil got a hold of someone who has stolen many souls from hell, like, say Jimmy Swaggart. That is like leaving George Bush with the Taliban. Zelensky with Putin. Abraham with Hitler. Imagine leaving your kid with known Paedophiles. Imagine a top cop abandoned in a prison riot. It is a completely different scenario if say a prisoner becomes a 'cop'. Or a paedophile repents. That would be the purpose of the 'extremer' filtering process. We know the tribulation is a filtering process as scripture on every plague that hits the earth during this period ends with ''they repented not''.

It is people on the fence. The not 'truly Christians' that will be left behind. The devil will initiate the same treatment for all who reject his mark Rev 2:10 as NOBODY stands out as an ENEMY (at first of course). We can expect amazing acts from tribulation saints. We read in Rev 6:10 how eager they are for God to avenge their blood.

There is no reason to further test a Christian. Unless of course you fail the test 2 Cor 13:5.

 

[KingJ]

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

The seven years are not a period that can be shortened. Seven years = seven years. 365 days = 365 days. 24 hours = 24 hours.

We see from this verse and verses 23-26 that Jesus is referring to the period prior to the tribulation.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

This will not take place during the tribulation. The anti-christ will proclaim to be christ and 'good luck' to anyone else trying. The false christs are pretribulation. This is a 'duh' fact to be honest.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

The words 'those days' is the same as saying 'last days'. The tribulation period is the closing out of the 'last days'. The days shortened relate to the period prior to the tribulation.

God will shorten the pretribulation days as:

A. There will be extremely harsh persecution on us Christians from fellow 'evil people'. IE Humans, not the devil. We can see historically that Christians seldom escape persecution from wicked people.

B. The level of sin will be high. As in the days of Sodom. The level of sin is so high that it throws out the balance of good and evil. This creates an environment UNFIT for children to grow up in. Unfit for saints to live in 'for long'.

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The elect mentioned here are tribulation saints.

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There is no need for us to have a heated disagreement on this. The way I see it, saint before or during = brother and sister in Christ.

 

[joestue]

I hope this helps you see the truth that's being taught in Matthew chapters 24 and 25. At the 2nd coming event, it's the damned who are taken to their destruction while the righteous stay and enter the Millennial Kingdom Age. To those being taken at the 2nd coming event, it's not an encouraging message to hear if you're one who will be taken. But at the rapture event, it certainly is an encouraging thing for those who will be taken. You shouldn't be bewildered anymore. You should know better, now, than you did before.

And this is still compatible with what i wrote earlier.

It doesnt matter if at Jesus second coming, all the unsaved get vacuumed off the planet... Or not.

The reality is that some who pass into the 1000 years will fall away.

This is why satan has to be let loose to go entice them to commit what amounts to eternal sin. Making war on the holy city

 

[joestue]

This is the 'most terrifying' period in human history because both the devil and God take part.

God uses the devil to filter good people from bad for 3.5 years, then God filters with His seven trumpets and bowl judgements for the next 3.5.

Been doing that since adam so you should not be afraid

 

[KingJ]

Been doing that since adam so you should not be afraid

Sure, but you are missing the boat.

There is a difference between allowing the devil to ''tell Eve to eat forbidden fruit'' over what he is allowed to do in Rev 2:10.

Rev 2:10 I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death,

The devil would always roam, looking for whom he can devour. In the tribulation he has free reign. Please try understanding that. Now imagine him getting a hold of someone like 'Jimmy Swaggart''. You think it will only be ten days of torment for him?

The devil doesn't need to """"" test """"" Jimmy Swaggart, he ALREADY """" knows"""" he is a true enemy.

 

[Still Learning]

And this is still compatible with what i wrote earlier.

Earlier you wrote that you voted for the post-Trib position. That is not compatible with what I've explained for Butch5. Paul teaches a pre-Trib rapture. I taught a pre-Trib rapture. The Trib is a time where God's wrath is poured out onto an unbelieving world, which is also a time where the unbelieving Jews are going to be refined by their trials. That's why this time is called Jacob's Trouble.

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jeremiah 30:7)​

Again, it's a time of God's wrath, where right from the beginning the Antichrist is unleashed upon the world to kick off the Seal Judgments. Revelation 6:15-17, which is teaching about how God's wrath and the Lamb's wrath gets poured out onto every single person on the Earth, tells us that God's wrath has come with the Seal Judgments.

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and EVERYONE else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” (Revelation 6:15-17​

That tells us that God's wrath comes with the Seal Judgments which begin the time of the Trib. And Scripture is very clear that Christ's Church/Body/Bride will not be suffering God's wrath. So, anyone who believes Christ's Church/Body/Bride is going to suffer God's wrath doesn't possess a saving faith in Jesus to have taken God's wrath for our sins in our place on the cross. Therefore, the Church will NOT be experiencing ANY part of the Trib, and those who say we will, are unsaved unbelievers who themselves will experience God's wrath in the Trib.

For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, NOT to pour out HIS WRATH on us. (1 Thessalonians 5:9)​

​

The rapture MUST take place before God pours out His wrath onto EVERYONE on the planet. Just as God couldn't pour out His wrath onto Sodom before the righteous people were removed from the time and place of His wrath, neither can God pour out His wrath onto every single person on Earth until the Church/Body/Bride of Christ, which Jesus has made righteous, is removed from the time (the beginning of God's wrath when the Antichrist is unleashed upon the world at the 1st Seal Judgment) and place of His wrath (the whole world).

 

[Rhema]

Paul teaches a pre-Trib rapture. I taught a pre-Trib rapture.

But Jesus did not. (And that should tell you something.)

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jeremiah 30:7)

The word Saved, does not mean removed. It's not wise to change the words. (Is it?)

And H3467 יָשַׁע is singular to mean he, not plural to mean "they" (as indicating the church).

It should be mentioned, though, that you're using the wrong book of Jeremiah, but I doubt that would have much impact on your "knowing-ness."

There is no "Jacob's trouble" in the book of Jeremiah that Jesus used.

Rhema

Are There Really Two Versions of Jeremiah?

Two versions of Jeremiah have survived from antiquity—and they diverge in many ways. Dr. Michael Heiser explains the similarities and differences.

www.logos.com