Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical

[Chad]

By Dan Delzell

"I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." This common objection, while sincere, is nevertheless untrue and illogical. How can you say it is "untrue" Dan if someone really means it? This is how. Just walk through the reasoning with me if you will.

First of all, think about what the person is saying. He is saying that if the biblical teaching about heaven and hell is correct, then he would never believe in a God who allows people to spend eternity in a place of suffering. This rationale is both illogical and irrational. His objection is based on a premise that the biblical teaching about hell is correct, which is a premise he already rejects.

It's like saying, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to a place which I am convinced doesn't exist." Huh? How do you know you could never believe such a thing when you do not yet even believe in hell, yet alone believe in Christ?

An unbeliever is someone who does not believe in Jesus as Savior. And I have yet to meet an unbeliever who is convinced that hell as described in the Bible is real. So an unbeliever's lack of faith has to do with a lack of faith in Jesus, rather than a lack of faith in hell. He is first an unbeliever in Jesus, and only later an unbeliever in hell.

We can all agree that the following statement is true: "The biblical description regarding hell and those who go there is either true or false." So the objection is that the person would never believe in God if the biblical description is true. I disagree, and I think you will too in a couple minutes. Here is why.

The biblical teaching, as well as the personal experience of Christians, is that a believer is given a new heart and begins to love God because of what Christ has done to save his soul. Millions of Christians believe in God while also believing the difficult doctrine that God sends people to hell. It is not only possible to hold these two positions, but many Christians accept both of them simultaneously.

So it is possible. It does happen. I, for one, believe in Christ as my Savior, and also in the reality of hell as described in the Bible.

It is irrational to say, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." It's like saying, "Even if millions of others claim to believe in both Christ and hell, I could never believe such a thing myself." That is untrue. You could believe it.

Let's say you were convinced that both heaven and hell are real places where people spend eternity. If you were convinced of that fact, it would be absurd for you to say, "I would rather go to hell than believe in God." No you wouldn't. You don't really mean it. Five minutes in hell would convince you otherwise. If you truly believed you were going to spend eternity in the same place of misery and agony where you spent the previous five minutes, you wouldn't stick to your unbelief and your rejection of Christ. You would know at that point that hell is real, and you would want any way out.

There is no way you would choose to stay in hell "just to prove a point." It wouldn't happen. You would become a believer very quickly. And you would see that you can indeed believe in a God who sends people to hell. There is no one who despises his soul so much that he would choose eternal punishment in hell over eternal pleasure with God in heaven.

And there is no one, except Satan, who hates God so much that he would spend five minutes in hell only to say, "I still don't want that new heart, and that new life, and that peace in paradise." It simply isn't logical or rational to say that a person would stick to this flawed position "just to make a point." In that situation, you would swallow your pride, bow your knee to your Creator, and accept Christ as your Savior and your only path to paradise.

If you are going to reject God's love for you as demonstrated in the death of His Son on the cross, it is because you are choosing to reject Jesus as the Messiah and Savior. But it is not because of what the Bible teaches about hell. People only think that is one reason they don't believe in God, but it isn't. It is not a logical position to claim such a thing. It is completely unreasonable. Man loves his personal comfort way too much to stick to that position "just to make a point." It wouldn't happen. If he could get it, man would definitely ask God for a lifeline after just five minutes in hell.

But of course the Bible does not offer a shred of hope that such a lifeline will be available to people after they are sent to hell. Once a person enters hell, reality quickly sinks in. People then see that their perception while on earth was terribly wrong. They see that they could indeed have previously believed in a God who sends people to hell, even though at the time they may have sincerely said they "could never believe in such a God."

Do you know why Jesus spoke at least as much about hell as He did about heaven? Because heaven and hell are actual places where people do exist forever. The biblical teaching about hell is probably the second toughest thing in Scripture to grasp. So what's the first? Here it is: God loved you enough to send His only Son to die in your place on the cross. Seriously, who does that? God did.

The Lord wants you in heaven forever and not in hell. If you repent of your sins and receive Christ as your Savior, you will be saved and safe forever, period. (see Mark 1:15, John 3:16, John 1:12, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, & 1 John 5:13)

At the same time, if you continue to reject Christ, that's on you. But either way, it is nonsensical for someone to make the illogical statement, "I could never believe in a God who sends people to hell." And I suspect you now see why that premise, albeit sincere, is false and illogical.

Everything just makes more sense when you are trusting Jesus to forgive your sins.

 

[Shutterbug]

In effect, those who make such a statement would prefer to believe in a God they don't have to commit to. Complete freedom means no required responsibility for our decisions or actions. God has said that he will give us the freedom of choice, but that freedom comes with the price of responsibility which goes with our choice. That's the caveat that is in the message of the Gospel. If you have been told all your life that God is good and does not want harm for us, then logically he is either a figment or doing a poor job. That is their caveat and argument. Sadly, there is much evidence to reinforce their attitude. It's why Christians must be very careful in the conduct of their daily lives to dissuade them and dispel the negativity of said group. Cheers, John

 

[clark thompson]

We should not come to Christ to avoid hell but come to Him because He loves which because of His love and following Him we will avoid judgment which sends us to hell.

 

[eddieb]

God dosent send us to hell. We send ourselves to hell. Think about it.

 

[Asanima]

By "believe in", is he talking about simply believing that a God exists, or actually worshipping and following and believing that God is a morally good entity?

God dosent send us to hell. We send ourselves to hell. Think about it.

I never understood this. What prevents God from convincing us not to go to hell, himself?

 

[eddieb]

By "believe in", is he talking about simply believing that a God exists, or actually worshipping and following and believing that God is a morally good entity?



I never understood this. What prevents God from convincing us not to go to hell, himself?

deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

what this is saying is God Almighty, who is capable of anything, has given us, human beings a choice. He wants a people who love him and will follow him. He wants people who do this out of their heart. It is us who limit God. psalm 78:41 says this clearly Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel. It is hard to wrap our finite minds around the fact that we are like an ant before God and yet he allows us to make our own choice. God has given us free will. We are not made as a robot. He dosen't force himself on you. and He dosent force his ways on you. and this is what is so awesome about God because if He just merely speaks it, it is so.(let there be light)
so to answer your question we prevent God by not obeying The Word of God and by not choosing life. This is why we send ourselves to hell. God only judges what our actions are and whats so awesome about this judge is unlike human judges He knows the intent of our heart..

 

[Asanima]

deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

what this is saying is God Almighty, who is capable of anything, has given us, human beings a choice. He wants a people who love him and will follow him. He wants people who do this out of their heart. It is us who limit God. psalm 78:41 says this clearly Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel. It is hard to wrap our finite minds around the fact that we are like an ant before God and yet he allows us to make our own choice. God has given us free will. We are not made as a robot. He dosen't force himself on you. and He dosent force his ways on you. and this is what is so awesome about God because if He just merely speaks it, it is so.(let there be light)
so to answer your question we prevent God by not obeying The Word of God and by not choosing life. This is why we send ourselves to hell. God only judges what our actions are and whats so awesome about this judge is unlike human judges He knows the intent of our heart..

Sure, but this doesnt really address my question.

I mean, I know that I have a choice to go out and shoot people randomly, but Ive already been convinced by my parents, my teachers, and society in general as to why this is necessarily detrimental for a society and for myself as to why i shouldnt do this. Basically, I have an understanding as to how society works.

And this is something that happens on a meta level as well, Ive been convinced multiple times, and ultimately changed my views, my beliefs, on a variety of subjects.

Supposedly, God has an argument that he knows would and could convince me that He exists, that I should worship and follow and adhere to him, and that what is described in the bible is actually just and morally good, etc. So what prevents him from doing this?

 

[eddieb]

Sure, but this doesnt really address my question.

I mean, I know that I have a choice to go out and shoot people randomly, but Ive already been convinced by my parents, my teachers, and society in general as to why this is necessarily detrimental for a society and for myself as to why i shouldnt do this. Basically, I have an understanding as to how society works.

And this is something that happens on a meta level as well, Ive been convinced multiple times, and ultimately changed my views, my beliefs, on a variety of subjects.

Supposedly, God has an argument that he knows would and could convince me that He exists, that I should worship and follow and adhere to him, and that what is described in the bible is actually just and morally good, etc. So what prevents him from doing this?

as i said in my other post It is us who limit God. psalm 78:41 says this clearly Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.

What i meant was the choices we make are either for life or death, either towards God or away from him. If we choose Not God, or we choose to not obey God this limits Him. he dont force Himself on us. God gave us free will to choose either Him or not Him.

at one point in your above quoted post I am unsure....are you saying you are not convinced he exsists? if this is what you are saying He isnt going to just do that with everyone. why I dont know. maybe because, Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." ( Psalm 19:1 ) It is impossible to live and breath in this world without recognizing God. Just observing nature in itself is proof to that. He made it. but maybe also because the bible says. matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
this is telling you to seek him and his kingdom and his righteousness first, which means before and above all else in life. this means you got to start somewhere, i recommend praying. tell him whats in your heart. Just be honest because he already knows whats in your heart. however you pray be faithful to that every day, for example in the evenings and late night is when i seek Him. I pray, and thank him for everything i can think of and then i read the bible. I always ask him for a word or to show me something in the bible that relates to me or what i have going on in life somehow. but you have to seek God out.

edit: i found this on a website : Intimacy with God begins when we radically pursue Him with our whole heart. King David wrote, “When You said, ‘Seek My face,’ my heart said to You, ‘Your face, O Lord, I shall seek’” (Psalm 27:8). God invites us in James 4:8 to “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”

 

[Asanima]

as i said in my other post It is us who limit God. psalm 78:41 says this clearly Yes, again and again they tempted God, And limited the Holy One of Israel.

What i meant was the choices we make are either for life or death, either towards God or away from him. If we choose Not God, or we choose to not obey God this limits Him. he dont force Himself on us. God gave us free will to choose either Him or not Him.

at one point in your above quoted post I am unsure....are you saying you are not convinced he exsists? if this is what you are saying He isnt going to just do that with everyone. why I dont know. maybe because, Psalm 19 says, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." ( Psalm 19:1 ) It is impossible to live and breath in this world without recognizing God. Just observing nature in itself is proof to that. He made it. but maybe also because the bible says. matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
this is telling you to seek him and his kingdom and his righteousness first, which means before and above all else in life. this means you got to start somewhere, i recommend praying. tell him whats in your heart. Just be honest because he already knows whats in your heart. however you pray be faithful to that every day, for example in the evenings and late night is when i seek Him. I pray, and thank him for everything i can think of and then i read the bible. I always ask him for a word or to show me something in the bible that relates to me or what i have going on in life somehow. but you have to seek God out.

edit: i found this on a website : Intimacy with God begins when we radically pursue Him with our whole heart. King David wrote, “When You said, ‘Seek My face,’ my heart said to You, ‘Your face, O Lord, I shall seek’” (Psalm 27:8). God invites us in James 4:8 to “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”

Well, first off, as a side note, with psalms 19, i mean, although this is a very weak argument to most atheists, it's kind of a moot point in our discussion. Im fairly certain that most christians would agree that Muslims and Hindus believe in a God, and yet are probably not gonna end up in heaven. But i suppose its still just a side note.


And as for praying, yes, ive done that many times over many years. But admitting that we have to come to him first, kind of means that the previous statement of how its "our choice" doesnt hold any weight anymore.


Take a baby for example. If a baby hurts himself by playing with knives, we know that the baby clearly had a choice, but we dont blame the child because we also know that the baby lacks an understanding regarding right and wrong, what gives pain, etc. As adults, we understand the difference, we understand the consequences, and therefore we can make informed decisions regarding our actions.


But we also understand that as a parent, if our child is about to commit a crime, it would be morally good and righteous for the parent to try to stop the child, and if the parent knows of a way to convince the child not to go through with it, that the parent SHOULD do it.


So, in the scenario of reality, I assume that, based on my understanding of God in a christian paradigm, that God would know what to say to me that would convince me that he exists and that he is morally good and righteous(or that the bible is true), to prevent me from making a greivous mistake where i would end up in prison(hell).


This, coupled with the fact that belief isnt simply a choice, and I cannot choose to believe that Gravity doesnt exist and walk off a building anymore than you could choose to believe that apple juice doesnt exist and actually mean it, the claim that we send ourselves to hell, isnt necessarily true.

 

[DHC]

Sure, but this doesnt really address my question.

I mean, I know that I have a choice to go out and shoot people randomly, but Ive already been convinced by my parents, my teachers, and society in general as to why this is necessarily detrimental for a society and for myself as to why i shouldnt do this. Basically, I have an understanding as to how society works.

And this is something that happens on a meta level as well, Ive been convinced multiple times, and ultimately changed my views, my beliefs, on a variety of subjects.

Supposedly, God has an argument that he knows would and could convince me that He exists, that I should worship and follow and adhere to him, and that what is described in the bible is actually just and morally good, etc. So what prevents him from doing this?

Hello Asanima.

You posted an interesting idea that God could easily convince you that He exists and
what prevents Him from doing this?

Perhaps God has already furnished you with more than ample information but you
refuse to accept the facts. You may be looking for a convincing argument or something
to that effect, yet the narration in the Bible is more than sufficient.

At a deeper level Asanima it is not so much about a convincing argument for the existence
of some deity. It is more accurately the revelation of Jesus Christ that is the real subject of
the scriptures. What could be more convincing than a God who loves you so deeply that
He became one of us, so that we could meet Him at our level. God became one of us so that
we could admire Him, question Him and we could also air our grievances with Him.

But as usual with mankind things got out of hand and we ended up murdering our own creator.

We committed a divine genocide if you like Asanima, are you at all surprised by our behavior.
I am not as I know from human history that mankind is completely dysfunctional and very
dangerous. Too many wars and far too much blood shed and this still continues today.

Anyway Asanima, the Bible states that you must seek Jesus Christ and you will find Him.

God (Jesus Christ) has provided you with the greatest argument ever recorded but you
may need to look within your own heart to see where the real problem lies.

 

[Asanima]

Hello Asanima.

You posted an interesting idea that God could easily convince you that He exists and
what prevents Him from doing this?

Perhaps God has already furnished you with more than ample information but you
refuse to accept the facts. You may be looking for a convincing argument or something
to that effect, yet the narration in the Bible is more than sufficient.

At a deeper level Asanima it is not so much about a convincing argument for the existence
of some deity. It is more accurately the revelation of Jesus Christ that is the real subject of
the scriptures. What could be more convincing than a God who loves you so deeply that
He became one of us, so that we could meet Him at our level. God became one of us so that
we could admire Him, question Him and we could also air our grievances with Him.

But as usual with mankind things got out of hand and we ended up murdering our own creator.

We committed a divine genocide if you like Asanima, are you at all surprised by our behavior.
I am not as I know from human history that mankind is completely dysfunctional and very
dangerous. Too many wars and far too much blood shed and this still continues today.

Anyway Asanima, the Bible states that you must seek Jesus Christ and you will find Him.

God (Jesus Christ) has provided you with the greatest argument ever recorded but you
may need to look within your own heart to see where the real problem lies.

But the problem with your argument is that it applies to all religions. Ive heard a muslim tell me that all I need is to look at the Quran to find out the truth about God and Islam. And im sure my reaction to the Quran is the same as yours, in that we both reject it. Clearly, to any non-muslim who has read the Quran, including christians, the quran wasnt sufficient, despite the claims of Muslims who claim that it is sufficient. And clearly, the bible isnt sufficient to anyone who isnt a christian, including me, as i have already read it and still dont accept it.


I mean, its a demonstrably weak argument to make, and the demonstration is one that is apparent in christians and their stance against Islam.


And youre also putting the carriage before the horse. Whether God coming down in bodily for so that we could meet him at our level and question him and air our grievances with him, requires the assumption that God exists, and that the bible or atleast the Jesus part, is already true. So using this as a "Convincing" argument is kind of circular.

 

[brakelite]

But the problem with your argument is that it applies to all religions. Ive heard a muslim tell me that all I need is to look at the Quran to find out the truth about God and Islam. And im sure my reaction to the Quran is the same as yours, in that we both reject it. Clearly, to any non-muslim who has read the Quran, including christians, the quran wasnt sufficient, despite the claims of Muslims who claim that it is sufficient. And clearly, the bible isnt sufficient to anyone who isnt a christian, including me, as i have already read it and still dont accept it.


I mean, its a demonstrably weak argument to make, and the demonstration is one that is apparent in christians and their stance against Islam.


And youre also putting the carriage before the horse. Whether God coming down in bodily for so that we could meet him at our level and question him and air our grievances with him, requires the assumption that God exists, and that the bible or atleast the Jesus part, is already true. So using this as a "Convincing" argument is kind of circular.

Modern scientific revelation has opened to the human understanding such a plethora of information that it is impossible to comprehend it all. From the infinite vastness of the universe and its un-numbered galaxies and stars etc to the intricacies of genetics, we have a 'creation' (not sure what other word would suit you here) astonishing in its complexity and scope. Yet you ask that in order to 'prove' Himself the Creator of it all should personally appear to you to 'convince' you He exists? Do you fully understand what you are asking? How do you know that you could handle such an experience, even survive it? And more importantly, what would be your response if you did survive such an experience? Okay, so God is real. So what? What next? Love Him? Serve Him...out of fear, or love? Judge Him because He doesn't measure up to your expectations? You believe He should have done things differently? How do you know your response to Him would be the most appropriate as far as your own destiny is concerned?
Asinima, allow me to let you in on a not so very well kept secret. God knows what is best for you. He also knows how best to convince you that He loves you, and how to engender the best response from you to ensure that your future with Him is secured. If He hasn't appeared to you personally in the past, it is because He knows it would not benefit you. The same goes for all of us. Thus He needed to establish our relationship with Him on grounds that best serves the massive disparity that exists between mortal sinners and an immortal perfect God. He did this by becoming one of us. By spending time with us, and by allowing Himself to be put to death by His own creatures. Therefore our response to Him in light of Calvary and the resurrection is not one born of fear, but one that is a response to His love, and engenders love in return. Not a forced love or service that a 'vision' or 'appearance' may invoke, but a voluntarily offered love that will last for all eternity.
God desires that we trust Him. That means we need to trust in His word, in His promises. This isn't a blind trust...our faith in His promises brings results. He says....
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (or grounds for hope)
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

If I read correctly, you suggested in a previous post that you don't have the choice as to whether you believe or not. I disagree with you. It is absolutely your choice as to what level of evidence you decide is sufficient to convince you to believe. It is absolutely your choice as to whether you accept or reject evidence that is presented. Sure, some people need a little more than others. But God is love. And you can know assuredly that there is available to you right now sufficient information and evidence for you to make an informed choice in favor of a loving personal Savior who desires always to protect and foster your best interests. It is up to you whether you accept or reject. And it takes as much faith to reject as it does to accept.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

Those that have told me they believe in hell but not heaven are confusing to me . Most of the time their view of hell is taken from bible teachings they've heard so if you hold to that description you have to believe in a heaven also to validate the first .so why believe in the worst when you read a little further you find the best and how to receive it ....Rev

 

[eddieb]

Well, first off, as a side note, with psalms 19, i mean, although this is a very weak argument to most atheists, it's kind of a moot point in our discussion. Im fairly certain that most christians would agree that Muslims and Hindus believe in a God, and yet are probably not gonna end up in heaven. But i suppose its still just a side note.


And as for praying, yes, ive done that many times over many years. But admitting that we have to come to him first, kind of means that the previous statement of how its "our choice" doesnt hold any weight anymore.


Take a baby for example. If a baby hurts himself by playing with knives, we know that the baby clearly had a choice, but we dont blame the child because we also know that the baby lacks an understanding regarding right and wrong, what gives pain, etc. As adults, we understand the difference, we understand the consequences, and therefore we can make informed decisions regarding our actions.


But we also understand that as a parent, if our child is about to commit a crime, it would be morally good and righteous for the parent to try to stop the child, and if the parent knows of a way to convince the child not to go through with it, that the parent SHOULD do it.


So, in the scenario of reality, I assume that, based on my understanding of God in a christian paradigm, that God would know what to say to me that would convince me that he exists and that he is morally good and righteous(or that the bible is true), to prevent me from making a greivous mistake where i would end up in prison(hell).


This, coupled with the fact that belief isnt simply a choice, and I cannot choose to believe that Gravity doesnt exist and walk off a building anymore than you could choose to believe that apple juice doesnt exist and actually mean it, the claim that we send ourselves to hell, isnt necessarily true.

I dont think psalm 19 is a weak argument. I mean, look thru the known universe. where else is life? and now look to the life one earth. trees breathe out what we breathe in and visa versa. if you really spend time to examine life around you... you will clearly see intelligent design and not something happening by chance. As far as muslims and hindus believing in a God well i could go on for hours here. If you study the orgin of "allah" you will find this god is actually of pagan orgin dating back, way way back. But even more on what i would refer to as "false gods" is well, i would direct you to study the gods of babylon. and not only about the gods but also the symbols. you see, in the bible there is a story about a tower of babel. In this story, the people on earth wanted to build a tower to heaven. God, that is, The God in the holy bible stopped this by changing the languages of the people so they couldnt understand each other(hence the meaning tower of babel means confusion as in babbeling) and adventually they spread out and formed their own countries. now it is at this point in history one can see similarities in the gods and symbologies of most other religions. For example in egypt they had the symbol of the seeing eye of ra. Now look at the back of the dollar bill. do you see the eye at the top of the pyramid(freemason)? diffrent culture same symbols. this is only one example. another example is in egypt you can see three circles. you can find this in other cultures as well. In pagan tradition, these three circles represent the three phases of the sun(they worshiped the sun) the phases are morning sun, noon sun, and setting sun. the three circle symbol has many forms but is refered to as a triquetta and this symbol is used today in witchcraft and can be found on modern day witchcraft websites, robes and books. the symbol is actually a hidden depiction of three sixes, as in 666, the mark of the beast. my point here is ever since the tower of babylon in religions other than judiaism and christianity there are similarities but due to the people being unable to speak and understand eachother they spread out and formed their own versions of sun worship. The devil will get more people to worship him thru deception than showing his true self. deception is also how it speaks of the devil recieving worship in the book of revelations. deception is how it went down in the garden of eden. anyway i am getting way off track and can go on with this for hours. there is a good video on youtube to start learning about the gods of babylon. just search on there for gods of babylon. but as far as what you called a side note, I would say it is the note at least for this paragraph. there is only one God. the rest are angels that decided to wage war with God and are just posing as gods and they are actually the reason hell exsists.

now as far as what you said about how we have to go to him first nullifying its our choice... i dont see how you could argue it dosent hold weight. It is your choice to go to him or not to go to him. If you dont choose to seek him out you obviously wont go to him. And if you do choose him you will seek him out. If you do to God in prayer in doubt I wouldnt think he would respond. when you go to him you must go in faith that he is who he says he is in his word. the bible says all scripture is God breathed or God inspired. this isnt my favorite version of the bible but here:
2 timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. new living translation
you either believe it or you doubt it. but since your words say you have already prayed to him deep down somewhere inside you.... you believe you have a maker and you do want to know him.

now on to what you said about a baby playing with knives. First off, if a baby is playing with knives there is only the parents at fault here. but just for the sake of this conversation, I personally believe that a baby hasnt come to the age of accountability. They dont know yet because they havent been taught or lived long enough to know better. Seeing how i understand this, and by your words you probably do to, how much more would an all knowing being (God) know of this?

now on to God telling you he is morally good or righteous, He already has. The bible tells you all about that. This is his word, and he honors it. If you dont read it and believe it I dont think He would give you some sort of "spiritual awakening". As I said in my earlier post, you have to seek Him. Thats what His word says. He honors his word even above his name. and as a side note the old time jews, back when they was called hebrews, they believed Gods name to be so, ever so holy that if a man spoke it he would fall dead. They was all kinds of mixed up before Jesus came and set us straight.

what I meant by we send ourselves to hell is basicly God only judges what we do, weather good or bad. But, it is us that do it. If you stick your hand in boiling grease would you get burned? and whose choice was it? God has already declared himself to us in his word. How he loves us, and the suffering he went thru to pay for our sins. The bible says we must repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our lives and that we must believe after he died on the cross three days later He rose from the dead. This is basicly the gospel. it is the good news. Christ being scouraged and crucified was the only way to take the wrath of God from us. It is impossible for us because adam and eve fell by disobedience to God by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. by this it caused all people born after to be born in sin. It is impossible for any human to pay for their sins so Jesus came. He bore the wrath of God. then he was brought back from the dead three days later. this is where you must start. By faith, taking God at face value of his word. If he said it, and he is Holy he dosent lie. so, He must be telling the truth.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

I have six children and 10 grand children so let me speak from experience ! Sometimes you have to let the Child learn the lesson on their own and just be there to pick up the pieces ! If it means death yes you stop them , physical harm yes ,but we are hard headed as a people and just like the Hebrew slaves we need to go in the Wildernesses sometimes to get Egypt removed from us ! The whole time they were in the dessert they said God was not With them yet He feed them , clothed them , protected them and then said I know this place I have led you to ....sounds like a child parent Realationship to me ...Rev

 

[Asanima]

Modern scientific revelation has opened to the human understanding such a plethora of information that it is impossible to comprehend it all. From the infinite vastness of the universe and its un-numbered galaxies and stars etc to the intricacies of genetics, we have a 'creation' (not sure what other word would suit you here) astonishing in its complexity and scope. Yet you ask that in order to 'prove' Himself the Creator of it all should personally appear to you to 'convince' you He exists? Do you fully understand what you are asking? How do you know that you could handle such an experience, even survive it? And more importantly, what would be your response if you did survive such an experience?

If were talking from a biblical perspective, I would say that this is a relatively easy thing to do. I mean, did Moses dream the burning bush, or did he actually witness it and speak to God? God even comes to eat dinner with Abraham. Everything within the old testament provides examples of God interacting, physically, with his surroundings.


But the kicker of this is, that i'm fairly certain that If God does exist and he is all powerful and all knowing, he would know of a method to reveal himself to me where I would be able to handle and survive it. I know my father exists because he interacts with me and physically appears before me. And yet you are saying that God cannot do something that my father, a non-omnipotent being, can do?

Okay, so God is real. So what? What next? Love Him? Serve Him...out of fear, or love? Judge Him because He doesn't measure up to your expectations? You believe He should have done things differently? How do you know your response to Him would be the most appropriate as far as your own destiny is concerned?

Sure, and this is where my comment of how this applies to all religions, comes in. The knowledge of the existance of God, is irrelevant to which religion is true, because it applies to a multitude of religions, most of which contradict each other. This was the point I was making when I brought up the problem with DHC's argument.

Asinima, allow me to let you in on a not so very well kept secret. God knows what is best for you. He also knows how best to convince you that He loves you, and how to engender the best response from you to ensure that your future with Him is secured. If He hasn't appeared to you personally in the past, it is because He knows it would not benefit you. The same goes for all of us. Thus He needed to establish our relationship with Him on grounds that best serves the massive disparity that exists between mortal sinners and an immortal perfect God. He did this by becoming one of us. By spending time with us, and by allowing Himself to be put to death by His own creatures. Therefore our response to Him in light of Calvary and the resurrection is not one born of fear, but one that is a response to His love, and engenders love in return. Not a forced love or service that a 'vision' or 'appearance' may invoke, but a voluntarily offered love that will last for all eternity.

Again, this argument is based on an assumption that God exists and is Good and Moral and just and cares about us. You realize that as an Atheist, I do not accept this assumption, right?

God desires that we trust Him. That means we need to trust in His word, in His promises. This isn't a blind trust...our faith in His promises brings results. He says....
Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. (or grounds for hope)
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Id say that trust is something that is earned, and not given out cart blanche.

If I read correctly, you suggested in a previous post that you don't have the choice as to whether you believe or not. I disagree with you. It is absolutely your choice as to what level of evidence you decide is sufficient to convince you to believe. It is absolutely your choice as to whether you accept or reject evidence that is presented. Sure, some people need a little more than others. But God is love. And you can know assuredly that there is available to you right now sufficient information and evidence for you to make an informed choice in favor of a loving personal Savior who desires always to protect and foster your best interests. It is up to you whether you accept or reject. And it takes as much faith to reject as it does to accept.

Well, no, its not, and youre admitting its not when you agree that some people need a little more evidence than others. If what you say is true, then no one needs more evidence, all they have to do is lower their standards and become more gullible. Infact, you wouldnt need any evidence.


But you seem to be describing a God who doesnt understand the nature of evidence and a rational, reasonable, logical mind. Everything around you, from your computer, your car, your house, the toothbrush you use, is the result of evidence, reason, logic, skepticism, the scientific method. we understand the importance of these things in terms of determing truth from fiction. And yet youre saying this God wants us to ignore what weve learned and have us not utilize our minds to its highest potential?

 

[Asanima]

I dont think psalm 19 is a weak argument. I mean, look thru the known universe. where else is life? and now look to the life one earth. trees breathe out what we breathe in and visa versa. if you really spend time to examine life around you... you will clearly see intelligent design and not something happening by chance.

At a cursory glance, yes, but when you actually sit down and think about it, you realize how weak it is. I mean, you mentioned about how we "look thru the known universe. Where else is life?" How have we "looked through" the known universe when we havent even left our own solar system, let alone our own galaxy? We dont even know the number of planets in this galaxy, and youve already come to a determination that there is no life? Really?


I dont think youve thought your arguments through, here.

As far as muslims and hindus believing in a God well i could go on for hours here. If you study the orgin of "allah" you will find this god is actually of pagan orgin dating back, way way back. But even more on what i would refer to as "false gods" is well, i would direct you to study the gods of babylon. and not only about the gods but also the symbols. you see, in the bible there is a story about a tower of babel. In this story, the people on earth wanted to build a tower to heaven. God, that is, The God in the holy bible stopped this by changing the languages of the people so they couldnt understand each other(hence the meaning tower of babel means confusion as in babbeling) and adventually they spread out and formed their own countries. now it is at this point in history one can see similarities in the gods and symbologies of most other religions. For example in egypt they had the symbol of the seeing eye of ra. Now look at the back of the dollar bill. do you see the eye at the top of the pyramid(freemason)? diffrent culture same symbols. this is only one example. another example is in egypt you can see three circles. you can find this in other cultures as well. In pagan tradition, these three circles represent the three phases of the sun(they worshiped the sun) the phases are morning sun, noon sun, and setting sun. the three circle symbol has many forms but is refered to as a triquetta and this symbol is used today in witchcraft and can be found on modern day witchcraft websites, robes and books. the symbol is actually a hidden depiction of three sixes, as in 666, the mark of the beast. my point here is ever since the tower of babylon in religions other than judiaism and christianity there are similarities but due to the people being unable to speak and understand eachother they spread out and formed their own versions of sun worship. The devil will get more people to worship him thru deception than showing his true self. deception is also how it speaks of the devil recieving worship in the book of revelations. deception is how it went down in the garden of eden. anyway i am getting way off track and can go on with this for hours. there is a good video on youtube to start learning about the gods of babylon. just search on there for gods of babylon. but as far as what you called a side note, I would say it is the note at least for this paragraph. there is only one God. the rest are angels that decided to wage war with God and are just posing as gods and they are actually the reason hell exsists.

Sure, and muslims would of course contradict you. But pointing this out is irrelevant to me. It doesnt matter to me whether Allah is a moon God or not, anymore than it matters to me that Muslims bring up the argument of how Jesus never once calls himself God. Why would it? Im not a muslim, after all.


And sure, religions borrow from each other all the time. This is something that exists in christianity, too, most notably Jesus' birthday on december 25th which was taken from the pagan solstice celebration and turned into christmas. But again, I still fail to see what this has to do with our discussion, as this isnt the argument i replied to. I mean, if you want to discuss this, then sure, but Id rather we continue our discussion about why you think Psalm 19 isnt a weak argument.

now as far as what you said about how we have to go to him first nullifying its our choice... i dont see how you could argue it dosent hold weight. It is your choice to go to him or not to go to him. If you dont choose to seek him out you obviously wont go to him. And if you do choose him you will seek him out. If you do to God in prayer in doubt I wouldnt think he would respond. when you go to him you must go in faith that he is who he says he is in his word. the bible says all scripture is God breathed or God inspired. this isnt my favorite version of the bible but here:
2 timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. new living translation
you either believe it or you doubt it. but since your words say you have already prayed to him deep down somewhere inside you.... you believe you have a maker and you do want to know him.

Youre forgetting the fact that God can come to me, too. Clearly he hasnt, I think we both agree to that, but the question isnt that he hasnt, its "why not".


Within the christian paradigm, you have a God that has the power and ability to seek everyone out and have them know that he exists. I mean, its relatively simple for my dad to demonstrate that he exists to you or me, and i would think that God would be able to do something that my Dad can.


On top of that, you have a God that has, as a desire, the salvation and love and worship of everyone to him.


So, given those two things, could you think of a reason why he wouldnt reveal himself to me, along with everyone else on this planet?

now on to what you said about a baby playing with knives. First off, if a baby is playing with knives there is only the parents at fault here. but just for the sake of this conversation, I personally believe that a baby hasnt come to the age of accountability. They dont know yet because they havent been taught or lived long enough to know better. Seeing how i understand this, and by your words you probably do to, how much more would an all knowing being (God) know of this?

I dont quite understand what you mean here. Youre saying that the babies are not accountable, and that its clearly the parents fault, and at the same time, they have reached the age of accountability, and therefore they are accountable?

now on to God telling you he is morally good or righteous, He already has. The bible tells you all about that. This is his word, and he honors it. If you dont read it and believe it I dont think He would give you some sort of "spiritual awakening". As I said in my earlier post, you have to seek Him. Thats what His word says. He honors his word even above his name. and as a side note the old time jews, back when they was called hebrews, they believed Gods name to be so, ever so holy that if a man spoke it he would fall dead. They was all kinds of mixed up before Jesus came and set us straight.

So you believe that God is morally good and righteous, because the book that was supposedly inspired by or dictated by God, tells you that he is good?


Do you understand that youve made a circular reasoning fallacy there?

what I meant by we send ourselves to hell is basicly God only judges what we do, weather good or bad. But, it is us that do it. If you stick your hand in boiling grease would you get burned? and whose choice was it? God has already declared himself to us in his word. How he loves us, and the suffering he went thru to pay for our sins. The bible says we must repent of our sins and ask Jesus into our lives and that we must believe after he died on the cross three days later He rose from the dead. This is basicly the gospel. it is the good news. Christ being scouraged and crucified was the only way to take the wrath of God from us. It is impossible for us because adam and eve fell by disobedience to God by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. by this it caused all people born after to be born in sin. It is impossible for any human to pay for their sins so Jesus came. He bore the wrath of God. then he was brought back from the dead three days later. this is where you must start. By faith, taking God at face value of his word. If he said it, and he is Holy he dosent lie. so, He must be telling the truth.

Well, no, this isnt exactly true either. Youre confusing the action with the consequence.


I take a shower every morning, and my shower has a pre-set temperature system, where I just turn the nozzle and the water comes out at a specific temperature every time.


Lets say that I take a shower, and for whatever reason, my water heater goes ballistic and pumps out scalding hot water onto my face.


Now, was it my choice to get burned? Of course not. Given the choice, I would choose not to be burned. The choice I made was to take the shower. The consequence of being burned, wasnt my choice.


But all of this is sorta separate from main problem of how belief, and not an action, is simply a matter of will. I mean, can you switch off your belief in Gravity, into a belief that Gravity doesnt exist, and truly believe it?

 

[eddieb]

At a cursory glance, yes, but when you actually sit down and think about it, you realize how weak it is. I mean, you mentioned about how we "look thru the known universe. Where else is life?" How have we "looked through" the known universe when we havent even left our own solar system, let alone our own galaxy? We dont even know the number of planets in this galaxy, and youve already come to a determination that there is no life? Really?


I dont think youve thought your arguments through, here.

Regardless of how many planets or whatever life has not been discovered anywhere else. so yes really. which is why I used the word "known" I have actually spent many many hours of thought on it.



Youre forgetting the fact that God can come to me, too. Clearly he hasnt, I think we both agree to that, but the question isnt that he hasnt, its "why not".

I have answered you on this. Gods word says to seek him. for you to go to him. who are you for the maker of heaven and earth to seek you out? He has set a formula on how it is. we do not dictate to God anything. you either do it his way or you have no part in him/with him at all. and this is how God is. I have told you what is your part to do and if you dont agree with that then you do not agree with Gods word, which is the bible.





So you believe that God is morally good and righteous, because the book that was supposedly inspired by or dictated by God, tells you that he is good?

How much of the bible have you read? Did you read the part where Jesus was whipped and had his beard pulled out a crown of thorns mashed on his head and was crucified to pay the price for What God says is sin? Do you know how you die from being crucified? the weight of your body suffocates you and you have to pull and push against the nails just to breathe. he endured as a way to pay for your/my sins. He didnt have to do that. He could have just let us all go to hell.
would you like a historical fact. read psalm 22. it is clearly about Jesus being crucified. verse 16ogs surround me,a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce[e] my hands and my feet.
the interesting part about this psalm is it was written by king david. which was approx. 2000 years before Jesus was on earth or even crucifixion was instated as capital punishment. so if you maybe put some effort into learning about the bible you may see more truth than you think is found in its pages.
I mean how would a man know of an event to come some 2000 years in the future with such detail unless God had a hand in it?






I take a shower every morning, and my shower has a pre-set temperature system, where I just turn the nozzle and the water comes out at a specific temperature every time.


Lets say that I take a shower, and for whatever reason, my water heater goes ballistic and pumps out scalding hot water onto my face.


Now, was it my choice to get burned? Of course not. Given the choice, I would choose not to be burned. The choice I made was to take the shower. The consequence of being burned, wasnt my choice.



this is moot. what i spoke of WAS your choice to stick your hand in the boiling grease or not. your argument to that is based on a malfuction of something, not a personal choice.

sorry but I dont really understand how the whole multi quote thing works so i put your words in blue text.

 

[Asanima]

Regardless of how many planets or whatever life has not been discovered anywhere else. so yes really. which is why I used the word "known" I have actually spent many many hours of thought on it.

If you dont know whether life exists on other planets or not, isnt it meaningless to ask "Where else is life?" Because the answer is clearly "I dont know".


So I guess ill ask, what was the point that you were trying to make with this?

I have answered you on this. Gods word says to seek him. for you to go to him. who are you for the maker of heaven and earth to seek you out? He has set a formula on how it is. we do not dictate to God anything. you either do it his way or you have no part in him/with him at all. and this is how God is. I have told you what is your part to do and if you dont agree with that then you do not agree with Gods word, which is the bible.

I understand this, But the fact that the Bible says for you to go seek him out, doesnt mean that god never, could never, or has never revealed himself to someone who wasnt seeking him out. I mean, is there a passage in the bible that says that God will never reveal himself to those who do not seek him out?


And yes, being an atheist, i think its clear that I dont agree with the bible. So that little quip is kinda meaningless to anyone who isnt a christian.

How much of the bible have you read? Did you read the part where Jesus was whipped and had his beard pulled out a crown of thorns mashed on his head and was crucified to pay the price for What God says is sin? Do you know how you die from being crucified? the weight of your body suffocates you and you have to pull and push against the nails just to breathe. he endured as a way to pay for your/my sins. He didnt have to do that. He could have just let us all go to hell.
would you like a historical fact. read psalm 22. it is clearly about Jesus being crucified. verse 16ogs surround me,a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet.
the interesting part about this psalm is it was written by king david. which was approx. 2000 years before Jesus was on earth or even crucifixion was instated as capital punishment. so if you maybe put some effort into learning about the bible you may see more truth than you think is found in its pages.
I mean how would a man know of an event to come some 2000 years in the future with such detail unless God had a hand in it?

Ive read the entire bible from cover to cover. And, although there is a translation dispute between Christians and Jews in regards to Psalm 22:16, What does any of this have to do with my comment, which points out the fact that youve made a circular reasoning fallacy, namely one of claiming how we know that God is morally good and righteous because its written in the bible, and then claiming that Bible is his word?


I mean, do you understand what my argument was pertaining to?

this is moot. what i spoke of WAS your choice to stick your hand in the boiling grease or not. your argument to that is based on a malfuction of something, not a personal choice.

No, my argument is based on the distinction of an action and the consequences.


But I suppose i can simplify this using your example.


What if I didnt know whether the pot contained boiling grease? What if I had mistakenly thought, or told it was regular grease at room temperature? Do you still consider it my choice to get burned?

 

[Chad]

Ive read the entire bible from cover to cover.

Then why are you here with "arguments" about the bible? Are you honestly saying you're not convicted by the truth in the Bible but you came to this community with your arguments? Do you do the same on all the other religions in this world?

Let's be blunt here, GOD is real. Jesus is real. The bible is in fact the Holy Spirit breathed and inspired, infallible Word of GOD regardless of your disbelief. There is a ridiculous amount of proof of it's validity and I mentioned more than plenty in the other thread you responded several times to.

Miracles
Biblical Artifacts
Intelligent Design
Science
DNA
....the list goes on forever

Seeking truth or bring "arguments" in any circumstance must require intellectual honesty.