Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical

Then why are you here with "arguments" about the bible? Are you honestly saying you're not convicted by the truth in the Bible but you came to this community with your arguments? Do you do the same on all the other religions in this world?

Let's be blunt here, GOD is real. Jesus is real. The bible is in fact the Holy Spirit breathed and inspired, infallible Word of GOD regardless of your disbelief. There is a ridiculous amount of proof of it's validity and I mentioned more than plenty in the other thread you responded several times to.

Miracles
Biblical Artifacts
Intelligent Design
Science
DNA
....the list goes on forever

Seeking truth or bring "arguments" in any circumstance must require intellectual honesty.
As you say Chad, it is a long list, but I would have put prophecy at the very top. There is only one possible explanation for the Bible accurately revealing the future. Not chance...not accident...God.
 
Then why are you here with "arguments" about the bible? Are you honestly saying you're not convicted by the truth in the Bible but you came to this community with your arguments? Do you do the same on all the other religions in this world?

Let's be blunt here, GOD is real. Jesus is real. The bible is in fact the Holy Spirit breathed and inspired, infallible Word of GOD regardless of your disbelief. There is a ridiculous amount of proof of it's validity and I mentioned more than plenty in the other thread you responded several times to.

Miracles
Biblical Artifacts
Intelligent Design
Science
DNA
....the list goes on forever

Seeking truth or bring "arguments" in any circumstance must require intellectual honesty.
Well, no, I didnt originally post here with "Arguments" about the bible, I was pointing out a question I had, and the discussion sort of expanded.


And although i think you mean "Convinced", I mean, isnt this the same with most, if not all non-christians? And no, I dont do the same with ALL the other religions, but christianity and Islam, yes, since those two seem to be the largest religions in the world.


And sure, I completely agree that you need to be intellectually honest when having a discussion or argument. And i dont think ive been intellectually dishonest or ignored/dismissed anyones arguments for no good reason. I'm certainly open to any discussion, too.
 
God doesn't "send people to hell." That's really not the way it works. People refuse to enter into God's grace and so choose hell for them selves. Because they love their sins more than they love the truth. What people really mean when they say "I can't believe in a God who would send me to hell," is, "I think I should be able to keep living in sin doing whatever I please and never have to suffer any consequence." Or, "If you tell me of a god that will conform himself to my desire, that I will believe." It's not that these people don't know God, because the Bible says they do (Rom. 1:19.) But they would rather rail against God in an attempt to justify to them selves the sin which they refuse to give up.
 
Last edited:
And yes, being an atheist, i think its clear that I dont agree with the bible. So that little quip is kinda meaningless to anyone who isnt a christian.

So then whats your purpose of coming on to a forum as this one? If you dont agree with it why are you here to debate it? and I ask this because I only see two possible outcomes, you are trying to stir up the pot or you are curious to learn about God. However since you claim you dont agree with the bible it should be clear to you why God dosent reply to you or reveal himself to you. The whole basis of salvation is For by grace(Gods grace) we are saved thru faith. faith is paramount. And since you doubt there isnt anything any christian can say to you that will be of any helpful effect. You must make up your own mind. You have been given good advise and guidance here and all you seem to want to do is say I am an athiest and you dont agree even to the point of ludicrous arguments in which you are unwilling to listen to the other side. What benifit is this getting you?
 
Regardless of who is ultimately responsible for anyone's future retirement plans, the truth is that I am sure that there are a great many who reject the idea of God on the basis of hell. But I would like to make a couple of points.
First, Jesus was unequivocal, hell is a place where we are told was initially prepared for the devil and his angels, but where however reluctantly, God will be sending the wicked there also. Clear teaching of scripture...upon those points there is little argument.
Second, it is what takes place there that is under debate.

There are basically three scenarios, all promoted by professed Christians, all using scripture as the basis for their various stances.
1. All unrepentant sinners will go there but after a time of cleansing will be offered a second chance which will of course be accepted by all. This is universalism. No-one will be lost...all will saved....eventually.
2. All unrepentant sinners will go there to burn forever. They are immortal, they cannot die, they suffer interminably, no end to the suffering, no hope.
3. All unrepentant sinners will go there, and after a time of punishment appropriate to each individuals sin, will die, because they are not immortal, they have not received the gift of eternal life, they are never again to be resurrected. For those supporting number 3, they believe that it is the punishment that is eternal (death), not the continual punishing. (Matt. 25:46)

It is number two I believe that puts people off the idea of a God. They fail to reconcile the justice of an eternal torture with the sin of a relatively short life-span. And if there be any atheist reading this and you concur with the above, you have my utmost sympathy, because I, a Christian of 40 years, cannot reconcile it either. I plump for number 3. It is I believe closest to the Biblical teaching regarding hell, and the clearly stated punishment due the wicked..... "The wages of sin is death".
 
So then whats your purpose of coming on to a forum as this one? If you dont agree with it why are you here to debate it? and I ask this because I only see two possible outcomes, you are trying to stir up the pot or you are curious to learn about God. However since you claim you dont agree with the bible it should be clear to you why God dosent reply to you or reveal himself to you. The whole basis of salvation is For by grace(Gods grace) we are saved thru faith. faith is paramount. And since you doubt there isnt anything any christian can say to you that will be of any helpful effect. You must make up your own mind. You have been given good advise and guidance here and all you seem to want to do is say I am an athiest and you dont agree even to the point of ludicrous arguments in which you are unwilling to listen to the other side. What benifit is this getting you?

I am here to learn and to Discuss and debate the problems that i see are apparent and that prevent me from believing.

And yes, I understand the whole faith thing, but I think we both understand that it isnt simply blind faith. This is the entire reason why Apologetics exist, which is to provide and defend the reason for your belief, to present evidence as to why your belief is justified. The early church fathers, christian scholars throughout history knew this, and the reason why this is ALSO important when it comes to belief. Its why Thomas Aquinas presented his five proofs for God. The ontological argument, The Kalam cosmological argument, Pascals wager, the fine tuning argument, etc, were all provided by and presented by believers, Christians, who understand this.

And yet you accuse me of posting ludicrous arguments and not listening to the other side. The specific comment you responded to in your quote, I think, is kinda obvious, and yet you somehow take offense to it. I mean, isnt it obvious that you, as a christian, dont agree with the Quran? I certainly dont agree with the Quran, either, because Im not a muslim. I suppose its not really an argument, just an obvious observation, but could you please be so kind as to point out how I havent listened to you, or have posted ludicrous arguments?
 
I think Jesus takes people who come to him for many different reasons. I don't think he rejects any of them.
Guilt, remorse, fear of God, fear of hell, fear of eternal torment, tired of being in bondage to addictions, it doesn't matter. Jesus accepts them all.
The fact is, there is a hell, there is a lake of fire, and the vast majority of people will end up there. If it takes a little "fire and brimstone" preaching to reach some people, so be it.
Jesus wasn't afraid to teach it. He told it like it is.

Matt 5:22; Matt 7:19; Matt 8:12; Matt 18:8-9; Luke 12:5; John 15:6; etc...

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

John (a disciple of Jesus) preached it as well.

Rev 20:15; Rev 21:8; etc...
 
I am here to learn and to Discuss and debate the problems that i see are apparent and that prevent me from believing.

And yes, I understand the whole faith thing, but I think we both understand that it isnt simply blind faith. This is the entire reason why Apologetics exist, which is to provide and defend the reason for your belief, to present evidence as to why your belief is justified. The early church fathers, christian scholars throughout history knew this, and the reason why this is ALSO important when it comes to belief. Its why Thomas Aquinas presented his five proofs for God. The ontological argument, The Kalam cosmological argument, Pascals wager, the fine tuning argument, etc, were all provided by and presented by believers, Christians, who understand this.

And yet you accuse me of posting ludicrous arguments and not listening to the other side. The specific comment you responded to in your quote, I think, is kinda obvious, and yet you somehow take offense to it. I mean, isnt it obvious that you, as a christian, dont agree with the Quran? I certainly dont agree with the Quran, either, because Im not a muslim. I suppose its not really an argument, just an obvious observation, but could you please be so kind as to point out how I havent listened to you, or have posted ludicrous arguments?

I had this or a similar discussion with quite a few folks when I was in prison. And God gave me a really good way to answer. Only there was a slight difference. In prison, the people who would question your faith did so to reveal some flaw in your sincerity or true devotion to God. A lot of them felt that inmates were claiming Christ as a cop-out to get away from the gangs because of fear and not true faith. So, if a chink in your armor were exposed it would be an avenue of approach which could turn ugly very quickly.

But, the answer is really quite simple. You are asking someone else to prove who God is to you. That is not possible. If you want to know God you must prove Him for your self. If you want proof of the Bible then give it a try. Step out in faith and have the courage to believe. I guarantee you that if you do, the Bible will be it's own proof to you and you will see not through philosophical or intellectual discussion but from actual experience that God is true to His Word. You will not learn the truth of the Bible until after you have the faith to believe. Then you will see that because of your belief things have happened exactly as the Bible says they would and that it is true. Without your willingness to believe and trust in God, this will never happen.

Sadly, most of the people who I responded to with this challenge were not sincere. Though they asked me many things to show how I was wrong and could find no fault in my answers, they were still not compelled. Maybe it was because they didn't really want to know how Christ had saved them, but how people who were claiming that He did weren't sincere. But in my opinion it was because of the simple truth that God's Word already makes clear.

You see, what I would always tell them is this simple yet profound Biblical truth, and that this in fact was the real reason they were asking me instead of finding out for them selves, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven (Matt. 5:10-12.)"

The actual difference between someone who knows Christ and someone who only has an idea about Him is one who has suffered for the sake of His truth or one who is merely inquisitive and not willing to make that commitment. If you want to know God you have to trust Him first. Questioning His faithfulness is not going to get you anything. If you don't suffer for the sake of His righteousness, then afterward call Him a liar; but not before you're willing to give Him a chance. God bless you. Amen.
 
I am here to learn and to Discuss and debate the problems that i see are apparent and that prevent me from believing.

And yes, I understand the whole faith thing, but I think we both understand that it isnt simply blind faith. This is the entire reason why Apologetics exist, which is to provide and defend the reason for your belief, to present evidence as to why your belief is justified. The early church fathers, christian scholars throughout history knew this, and the reason why this is ALSO important when it comes to belief. Its why Thomas Aquinas presented his five proofs for God. The ontological argument, The Kalam cosmological argument, Pascals wager, the fine tuning argument, etc, were all provided by and presented by believers, Christians, who understand this.

And yet you accuse me of posting ludicrous arguments and not listening to the other side. The specific comment you responded to in your quote, I think, is kinda obvious, and yet you somehow take offense to it. I mean, isnt it obvious that you, as a christian, dont agree with the Quran? I certainly dont agree with the Quran, either, because Im not a muslim. I suppose its not really an argument, just an obvious observation, but could you please be so kind as to point out how I havent listened to you, or have posted ludicrous arguments?



When I told you something in the bible you replied "I am an athiest, and dont agree with the bible. This is the reason right here that prevents you from believing. You do not agree with the bible or a better way to say it, you do not believe (or have faith) in the bible. 2 timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The entire bible may have been written by different people but each one was being led by God to write what was written. you claim you havent read much of the bible........ but.... you dont agree with it? How do you know you dont agree with it if you havent "read much of it" Based on your own words your own reasoning falls apart on itself.

as for what you say about blind faith, it is actually blind faith. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. The thing most modern day people dont realize about this passage is a lamp is old timey, unlike todays flashlights and floodlights which produce a beam with long range, a lamp only gives you enough light to see a few steps infront of you so you dont really know to much of whats in front of you. you are just wandering in the dark with just enough light to take the next step or two. Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Now does a little child question its father about where food and clothes will come from or does a child just TRUST father will provide them? The bible never once says for us to know how God will do, only to have faith. and who knows the future? The bible only says to Believe on Jesus Christ.

I would reccomend you try to be openminded to what the bible says and to God being Good and Holy before you attempt to seek him out. If thats not possible then just ask Him to help you with your unbelief. you can ask God for help with anything.

romans 10 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
 
God doesn't "send people to hell." That's really not the way it works. People refuse to enter into God's grace and so choose hell for them selves. Because they love their sins more than they love the truth. What people really mean when they say "I can't believe in a God who would send me to hell," is, "I think I should be able to keep living in sin doing whatever I please and never have to suffer any consequence." Or, "If you tell me of a god that will conform himself to my desire, that I will believe." It's not that these people don't know God, because the Bible says they do (Rom. 1:19.) But they would rather rail against God in an attempt to justify to them selves the sin which they refuse to give up.

What if a person loves truth to the point of questioning God because they cannot find reason to believe in Him?

One man sees arguments against God and rejects them for he fears hell.
Another sees arguments against God and rejects them because he thinks he is better of just in case he is wrong.
Another see arguments against God and accepts them because he believes them to be true, even if it might mean being wrong and going to hel.

Who then, is the real lover of truth, who is God?
I believe in God and I fear the judgment (I believe I will go to Heaven, but will be shown my errors). I don't base my relationship on fear. That's an abusive relationship
 
Then why are you here with "arguments" about the bible? Are you honestly saying you're not convicted by the truth in the Bible but you came to this community with your arguments? Do you do the same on all the other religions in this world?

Let's be blunt here, GOD is real. Jesus is real. The bible is in fact the Holy Spirit breathed and inspired, infallible Word of GOD regardless of your disbelief. There is a ridiculous amount of proof of it's validity and I mentioned more than plenty in the other thread you responded several times to.

Miracles
Biblical Artifacts
Intelligent Design
Science
DNA
....the list goes on forever

Seeking truth or bring "arguments" in any circumstance must require intellectual honesty.

I am curious how science and DNA prove God?
I am curious about why you include intelligence design, since science and DNA seem to disagree with it?
 
Hello Asanima.

Nice to see that you are still active on the forum TalkJesus.

There was a miracle that Jesus performed and is recorded by Matthew, this event is reproduced below.

You might like to read the text Asanima.

Matthew 12
9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And a man was there whose
hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who
has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on
the Sabbath.” 13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and
it was restored to normal, like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against
Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

May I ask Asanima, just how is it that you know that Jesus did not perform this miracle?

You obviously have access to information that I am not aware of. If you would be so
kind and tell me how you know that the above event is fictitious. When I first read this
account I had no choice but to conclude that it was not possible to validate or to refute.
You seem to hold a position that this event did not occur and I would like to know how
you know your opinion is correct.
 
Hello Last Things.

May I ask why you would think that science disagrees with the existence of God?

I said science and DNA seem to disagree with the concept of 'Intelligent Design'. A concept that holds that God was incapable of putting the universe in motion from the very beginning to accomplish His will - He had to direct and influence his own creation while being created to get it to produce what we wanted. It seems to me that God can cause the big bang and without interfering, produce humanity. He is that powerful.

I think science as we understand it, is irrelevant to things pertaining to God. Sciences tells us how something occurs, but revelation tells us why it occurs. Science can only understand what is perceptible to the senses, but it can say nothing of what the senses cannot detect. In other words, science relies solely upon our senses to gain understanding. The problem is that God is immaterial, He is beyond the what our senses can detect.

Faith is the product of reason and revelation. Science is the product of reason and the senses.
 
Last edited:
I said science and DNA seem to disagree with the concept of 'Intelligent Design'. A concept that holds that God was incapable of putting the universe in motion from the very beginning to accomplish His will - He had to direct and influence his own creation while being created to get it to produce what we wanted. It seems to me that God can cause the big bang and without interfering, produce humanity. He is that powerful.

I think science as we understand it, is irrelevant to things pertaining to God. Sciences tells us how something occurs, but revelation tells us why it occurs. Science can only understand what is perceptible to the senses, but it can say nothing of what the senses cannot detect. In other words, science relies solely upon our senses to gain understanding. The problem is that God is immaterial, He is beyond the what our senses can detect.

Faith is the product of reason and revelation. Science is the product of reason and the senses.

Hello Lastthings.

I stand corrected.
 
When I told you something in the bible you replied "I am an athiest, and dont agree with the bible. This is the reason right here that prevents you from believing. You do not agree with the bible or a better way to say it, you do not believe (or have faith) in the bible. 2 timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


Its kind of a two-step thing.


With regards to a belief in a god or diety, the acceptance of the Bible isnt necessary.


With regards to a belief in Christianity, the acceptance of the bible is necessary.


Although I havent even gotten past the first hurdle, I couldnt agree more. My stance on accepting the bible as true, prevents me from believing that the bible is true. Again, thats kind of an obvious observation, but, if I had accepted the bible as true, if I agreed with the entirety of the bible, again, I wouldnt be an atheist.


The entire bible may have been written by different people but each one was being led by God to write what was written. you claim you havent read much of the bible........ but.... you dont agree with it? How do you know you dont agree with it if you havent "read much of it" Based on your own words your own reasoning falls apart on itself.


Actually, ive said that ive read the entire bible, from cover to cover.


as for what you say about blind faith, it is actually blind faith. Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. The thing most modern day people dont realize about this passage is a lamp is old timey, unlike todays flashlights and floodlights which produce a beam with long range, a lamp only gives you enough light to see a few steps infront of you so you dont really know to much of whats in front of you. you are just wandering in the dark with just enough light to take the next step or two. Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Now does a little child question its father about where food and clothes will come from or does a child just TRUST father will provide them? The bible never once says for us to know how God will do, only to have faith. and who knows the future? The bible only says to Believe on Jesus Christ.


There is a good post on Carm dot org(i dont think im allowed to post websites, but type in "Why is apologetics not taught in the church? CARM" in google and youll find it), regarding why apologetics doesnt exist in the churches. It might be a bit old, but in it, he stresses the importance of Apologetics, and discusses the stance of "Blind-faith" that the churches have taken and why this was disastrous.


And let me tell you, my neice who is 6-7 years old, constantly asks "Why" and is very curious as to where everything around her comes from.
 
@Asanima
you said you hadnt read much of the bible and asked what was preventing God from revealing Himself to you. So As I prayed about this God revealed to me to tell you what I am about to tell you. What I am about to show you here is a good foundation to start with on who God is and who we are. It may be a tad boring at first but if you read it all you will gain undersatanding. I have written STOP in places where i go into explaining of things significant for you to gain understanding. If you dont understand it all right now thats ok just keep reading.
There are two specific places of intrest in the bible that speaks of "the begginning" John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Now this clearly shows The Word of God is not merely something, but someone.


Genisis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. STOP there is whats called the gap theory and I dont support it due to lack of evidence in the bible, however here we see clearly there was deep waters upon a formless something refered to as "earth". whats interesting is within the earths crust there are two floods recorded. you can look it up. many bible scholars would refute this because they say the word for Created in verse one means "to make out of nothing" however if we take a closer look at this word in the original text which is hebrew it is the word bara' (bah-rah) its a verb. In strongs concordance its # 1254 and is defined as to form or fashion or produce or create. However if we look at joshua 17:18 the same word "bara" is used for the word "cut" speaking of cutting down trees or carving them out. thus meaning to carve or sculpt out. and so far in genisis God hasnt started creating and also nowhere in genisis does it say God made or created the waters. In verse 9 it says he let the waters gather and we know water travels in the path of least resistance. Ok lets get back to it....
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. STOP notice how it says let US make man in OUR image. this is plural and probably refers to the trinity Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. in some scriptures it says Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit. the bible also tells us these three are one just as we are three in one made in his image. we have a body mind and spirit. and if you dont believe you have a spirit then tell me what physical organ in your chest and stomach it is when you have done wrong or you feel sad or when you feel happy, that feeling you get in your chest that accompanies these emotions is your spirit. even futher evidence of three in one is in the next verse when it switches back to singual form "in His image and likeness" Now another point that is has reason for pause here is the word "man" In the hebrew its the word adam (ah-dahm) in strongs concordance its listed as #120 it means man or mankind. whats really interesting about this is that adam is related to the verb adom which means to be red, as in the red earth God formed man from. Now i know a great deal about agriculture and soil and plants. The two types of clay I am familiar with are grey and red. grey is stangnant and dormant meaning it cannot release it nutrients to plants roots, even more it has no oxygen, unlike red clay which isnt dormant and can release nutrients to plant roots but also red clay contains oxygen which is what gives it its red color. much like rust or iron oxide is red. our blood in our veins is red and has oxygen in it as well. whats significant here is when the people who wrote this way way back, they didnt know what oxygen was or helium or co2. there is also much much more scripture refrence tothe Word of God being likened unto a seed in our heart and commands telling us to "break up our fallow ground" you see God used the good soil to form man. Ok lets get back to it.....
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. STOP john 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. ok......
8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. STOP here is another clear example of God making us free will beings with the ability to choose Deuteronomy30:19 call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. ok, back to it.... 10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel(tigris): that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. STOP keep in the back of your mind that the word in hebrew for "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" means to close or fasten the eyes. so in a few more lines when the serpent deceives eve it is clearly a lie. Also of importance in this scripture notice how God says on the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die. Now according to the bible God dosent lie, but adam didnt fall down dead. and if we keep reading the bible says adam lived to be like 900 years old or so. This is how we know that adams spirit died. You can use this analogy, you got a phone and didnt pay the bill, service gets cut off. The phone is still works but there is no connection.... in adams case no connection or fellowship with God and this is why it is paramount that we recieve Jesus in our hearts to once more give us "the breath of life" as it speaks of in genesis 2:7.... back to it.....
18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet(or helper) for him.
19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. STOP this is how innocent they where.......
Genesis 3
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. STOP again you can see deception here ...by eating the fruit of the tree that closes the eyes your eyes will be opened. this is also the same lie told thru history even to this day, take for instance the new age religion and scientology they claim you can become as a god. the freemasons higher up are refered to as illuminati or illumined ones or elightened ones. they believe thru certian teachings you can become your own god. there is plenty of info on the internet to find this out. ok, back to it.....
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. STOP the womans seed is Jesus..... ok back to it....
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them. STOP this part is a depiction of Jesus. while not explicitly stated the animal skins where taken from slain animals, God gives them clothes to cover thier sin and fallen state much like the blood of Jesus covers our sins today. so we can see blood had t be shed to provide a protective covering for sin and also the living creature that had to be slain was not the perpetrator of the sinful deed also as Jesus is without sin.
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It is important to note that all people came from Adam thus they have been born into the world in the same fallen state and this is why Jesus is the only way back to the father. John 14:66 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

now lets take a closer look into Jesus or The Word of God.
Revelation 19

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I had this or a similar discussion with quite a few folks when I was in prison. And God gave me a really good way to answer. Only there was a slight difference. In prison, the people who would question your faith did so to reveal some flaw in your sincerity or true devotion to God. A lot of them felt that inmates were claiming Christ as a cop-out to get away from the gangs because of fear and not true faith. So, if a chink in your armor were exposed it would be an avenue of approach which could turn ugly very quickly.

But, the answer is really quite simple. You are asking someone else to prove who God is to you. That is not possible. If you want to know God you must prove Him for your self. If you want proof of the Bible then give it a try. Step out in faith and have the courage to believe. I guarantee you that if you do, the Bible will be it's own proof to you and you will see not through philosophical or intellectual discussion but from actual experience that God is true to His Word. You will not learn the truth of the Bible until after you have the faith to believe. Then you will see that because of your belief things have happened exactly as the Bible says they would and that it is true. Without your willingness to believe and trust in God, this will never happen.

Sadly, most of the people who I responded to with this challenge were not sincere. Though they asked me many things to show how I was wrong and could find no fault in my answers, they were still not compelled. Maybe it was because they didn't really want to know how Christ had saved them, but how people who were claiming that He did weren't sincere. But in my opinion it was because of the simple truth that God's Word already makes clear.

You see, what I would always tell them is this simple yet profound Biblical truth, and that this in fact was the real reason they were asking me instead of finding out for them selves, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad for great is your reward in heaven (Matt. 5:10-12.)"

The actual difference between someone who knows Christ and someone who only has an idea about Him is one who has suffered for the sake of His truth or one who is merely inquisitive and not willing to make that commitment. If you want to know God you have to trust Him first. Questioning His faithfulness is not going to get you anything. If you don't suffer for the sake of His righteousness, then afterward call Him a liar; but not before you're willing to give Him a chance. God bless you. Amen.

I have several problems with your post, but ill start off with just one.

Can i ask you, if a Mormon comes up and tells you that if you read the Book of mormon with a sincere heart and an open mind and a willingness to believe, that he will gauruntee that you will convert to mormonism, and after reading the book of mormon with what you believed was a sincere heart, open mind, and a willingness to believe, you didnt convert or werent convinced, what would your thoughts be on both the challenge/argument, and your position on Mormonism?
 
Hello Asanima.

Nice to see that you are still active on the forum TalkJesus.

There was a miracle that Jesus performed and is recorded by Matthew, this event is reproduced below.

You might like to read the text Asanima.

Matthew 12
9 Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And a man was there whose
hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who
has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?
12 How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on
the Sabbath.” 13 Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and
it was restored to normal, like the other. 14 But the Pharisees went out and conspired against
Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

May I ask Asanima, just how is it that you know that Jesus did not perform this miracle?

You obviously have access to information that I am not aware of. If you would be so
kind and tell me how you know that the above event is fictitious. When I first read this
account I had no choice but to conclude that it was not possible to validate or to refute.
You seem to hold a position that this event did not occur and I would like to know how
you know your opinion is correct.

I dont think ive ever said that the events in the bible never or couldnt or didnt happen. As you say, I can neither validate or refute it.

But thats kind of the reason why I dont accept it. I mean, this applies to everything that i can neither validate or refute. There are many aspects of the Quran, of Muslims claims about Muhammads life, that i can neither validate or refute, and therefore i dont accept it as true, either.
 
@Asanima
you said you hadnt read much of the bible and asked what was preventing God from revealing Himself to you. So As I prayed about this God revealed to me to tell you what I am about to tell you. What I am about to show you here is a good foundation to start with on who God is and who we are. It may be a tad boring at first but if you read it all you will gain undersatanding. I have written STOP in places where i go into explaining of things significant for you to gain understanding. If you dont understand it all right now thats ok just keep reading.

Again, i said that i had read the entire bible from cover to cover.

And although I appreciate that youve typed this out, most of what you wrote, I had already been aware of. The only thing I wasnt aware of was the Adom reference to the colour red, but if i remember correctly, red clay soil is pretty hard to work with because of its lack of nutrients, and the greyer/darker equivalent soils are pretty fertile so i think you have it backwards.
 
Back
Top