Revived version of the rapture of the manchild

[Fellowservant]

Introduction

This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end: (many shall run to and fro, and knowledge
shall be increased).

Revelation Chapter 12...


The Woman and Manchild. Rapture and Exodus, of the children of Zion...
The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...a Rapture, and a
modern day Exodus?, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the
protection of the Woman in the wilderness (ie: modern day Exodus)...For the
elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather
them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness. Why did Jesus say he would
shorten the days? He said he would do it for the elects sake, Mark
13:20...who are the elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he
shorten the days for? Very likely for the gathering of his people, the
elect. Not for his Second Coming... his Second Coming is to destroy the
Antichrist and his Armys, Rev 19:19...if he didnt send his angels first, the
Antichrist, or man of sin, would destroy the Jews...Hitler would'nt be able
to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from
Satan, around the time of the Great tribulation, after she gave birth to the
Manchild that Satan tried to destroy.



(Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born... Rev 12:4,5 he was here on earth for at least 33 years. What these interpretations miss here, is that Jesus also promised the overcomeing saints, that they also will rule with a rod of iron, along side him...Rev 2:26,27. and John is writing here about future events, not past... all the prophecies of the birth of Christ are fulfilled.




The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or
the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted
Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with
them in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:33-36. As soon as the woman gave birth to
the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy
her...because the manchild was raptured (Caught up to God) sometime near the begining of the Great tribulation. Then we see Satan going after the left
behind saints, who did'nt make themselfs ready to meet the bridegroom
(May be wrong on this, as Jesus says the door was shut).



As a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they
may also be part of the (falling away), as we see in Daniel... he says they
fell that they would be tried and made white (Daniel 11:35)... Now, the 24 elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they
seem to be raptured saints or part of the redeemed New Testament Church...but even some Pre-trib theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the bible...Lets have a look.


KJV Version
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall
reign on the earth.



ASV Version
Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto
God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10 and madest THEM to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and THEY reign upon earth.


BBE Version
Rev 5:9 And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right
for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and
have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and
language, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY are ruling on the earth.



CEV Version
Rev 5:9 Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll
and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you
bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.
Rev 5:10 You let THEM become kings and serve God as priests, and THEY will rule on earth."




ISV Version
Rev 5:8 When the lamb had taken the scroll, (the four living creatures and
the twenty-four elders) bowed down in front of him.( Each held a harp) and a
gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 (They sang a new song): "You are worthy to take the scroll and open
its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased
people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
Rev 5:10 You made THEM a kingdom and priests for our God, and THEY will
reign on the earth."




Also notice the last version i used above, you will see that the four beast
are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old
testament as being cherubims Eze 1:10 . So how could angelic beings sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? or be redeemed from every tribe, language, people, and nation, by the blood of
Christ? and reign on the earth, as kings and priest? Jesus Christ did'nt
shed his blood for angelic creatures. So this is basicly impossible...these
four beast and the 24 elders, are singing a song (for the redeemed), not a
song (of the redeemed). This is just common sense, when its read in its
context.




As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...Well i dont have all the
versions, but the ones i do have don't make them out to be a redeemed
Church. So there must have been a (mis-translation on these words)...also
there is no proof anywhere that these 24 elders represent Raptured saints, i
mean a redeemed N.T Church...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the
Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this
interpretation. As we should know this won't work, because the Great
multitude came out of the Great tribulation, (Jacobs trouble, and Daniel
says this will be 3 1/2 years, of great tribulation...not seven).

The Antichrist is probably only going to be revealed in the middle of his
covenant with Israel...this is when he causes the abomination of desolation.
Then begins the Great tribulation..(ie a time and times and the dividing of
time...Daniel 7:25) you will also see that the Woman was protected from the
face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, and times, and the dividing of time,
Rev 12:14. The two witnesses of revelation have this time stamp as well,
they will prophecy for one thousand two hundred sixty days. 42 months is
also mentioned Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5... which is equal two 3 1/2 years also.


So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


As John did'nt say who they were, or where they came from,we have to leave them just as they are, and that is just that they are 24 elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there are no prophecies about them, and all other newer versions of the bibles i list, don't make them out to be part of the Rapture, or the redeemed of the Church age.




My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, ...I may be
incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured
out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation,
is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to become a Nation of
people, who will be born in one day, or broth forth...


Isaiah 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith
the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Revelation
Chapter 12. It is also a real good endtime prophecy, of God setting up his
kingdom.



The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem "ie Israel')


A promise was also given to the saints, to rule with a rod of iron, along
side Christ...below

Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him
will I give power over the nations
Rev 2:27 (And he shall rule them with a rod of iron); as the vessels of a
potter shall they be broken to shivers: (even as I received of my Father).



Bible theologians agree that the Woman of revelation Chapter 12 represents
Israel, because of her crown of twelve stars. These stars could represent
the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles, but we must not forget that Jerusalem is
in Israel, and is the city of God.


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with
the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to
be delivered.


Isa 26:17 (Like as a woman with child), that draweth near the time of her
delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy
sight, O LORD.


Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and (see whether a man doth travail with child)?
wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in
travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even
the (time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it).



The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the old
testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these
birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of iron.
Don't forget that the above O.T prophecies are semi symbolic, so is the
Woman of Revelation Chapter 12.



Rev 12:5 (And she brought forth a Manchild), who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his
throne.



(Raptured from the Great Tribulation )... This is not a Secret Rapture, its
right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried
away...the woman was also carried away and lead to the wilderness... I think
for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12
has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people
thought this Manchild was Jesus Christ. ( as i said... nowhere in bible
prophecy is Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild, and the saints will
also rule with a rod of iron with him... Rev 2:26,27).


You could argue that this is taking away the right of Christ to rule with a rod of iron...but thats not the case, this looks or seems like your degrading Christ, but thats not the case either, there is prophecy to back it up, Isaiah 66:7,8 and Revelation 2:26,27 plus many more on this Woman in travail.


A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The
Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit
Jews?...I doubt it.


Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your
brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the
LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be
ashamed.


(Isa 66:6 ) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice
of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa 66:7 (Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came,
she was delivered of a (Manchild).

Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things)? Shall
the (earth be made to bring forth) in one day? or (shall a nation be born at
once?) for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth (her children).

Isa 66:9 ( Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth)? saith
the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb)? saith thy God.

Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things) Shall
the(earth be made to bring forth) in one day?...

As we see, here is something taking place, that never took place before, the earth is bringing forth children (ie reserrection)...and a nation will be made with them.



Rom 8:22 For we know that (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
pain) together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
of the Spirit, (even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, (the redemption of our body).


The Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).
look at Isaiah (66.6) a voice from the Temple, that rendereth recompence to
his enemies?... Its interesting that i was looking for passages with 666 in
them, when i stumbled upon this.



The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem (ie Israel), and
part of Gods people. Jerusalem symbolicly...will bring forth her children in
travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If
you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and
Revelation Chapter 12"




The falling away.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed),
the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God),
shewing himself that he is God.


Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Trib teachers say this
falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sense at all. Lets see what
Daniel says.


Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is
yet for a time appointed.


So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them
white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is
certainly not the rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough, you can
make one...I can make a Rapture of the Church with the two witnesses if i
try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make a rapture, my study is
to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12, is
definitly a Rapture...he was Caught up to God.



Hereafter the Church?

Some say that the apostle John, being in the spirit on the lords day is the
rapture... because he was told to come up hither to right the things that
must be hearafter..some have a saying, that the hearafter means hearafter
the Church. John was caught up (in spirit, not body,) the saints will have a
(bodily resurrection...so that don't fit). Plus John was caught up to heaven
in spirit almost 2000 years ago... to say that this is the Rapture of the
New Testament Church... is to say the Rapture took place at that time.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which (must be
hereafter). (ie take place in the future)
Rev 4:2 And immediately (I was in the spirit): and, behold, a throne was
set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Hereafter in the above verses means the future... not hereafter the Church.
After John delivered the seven letters to the seven churches, and the book
of revelation, John was done his writeing. The Church carried on into the
future, with the book of revelation as a guide to endtime events, and is
still carrying on.

More to come...

God bless all

 

[lecoop]

Introduction

This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time.

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end: (many shall run to and fro, and knowledge
shall be increased).

Revelation Chapter 12...


The Woman and Manchild. Rapture and Exodus, of the children of Zion...
The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...a Rapture, and a
modern day Exodus?, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the
protection of the Woman in the wilderness (ie: modern day Exodus)...For the
elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather
them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness. Why did Jesus say he would
shorten the days? He said he would do it for the elects sake, Mark
13:20...who are the elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew. What does he
shorten the days for? Very likely for the gathering of his people, the
elect. Not for his Second Coming... his Second Coming is to destroy the
Antichrist and his Armys, Rev 19:19...if he didnt send his angels first, the
Antichrist, or man of sin, would destroy the Jews...Hitler would'nt be able
to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from
Satan, around the time of the Great tribulation, after she gave birth to the
Manchild that Satan tried to destroy.



(Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born... Rev 12:4,5 he was here on earth for at least 33 years. What these interpretations miss here, is that Jesus also promised the overcomeing saints, that they also will rule with a rod of iron, along side him...Rev 2:26,27. and John is writing here about future events, not past... all the prophecies of the birth of Christ are fulfilled.




The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or
the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted
Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with
them in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:33-36. As soon as the woman gave birth to
the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy
her...because the manchild was raptured (Caught up to God) sometime near the begining of the Great tribulation. Then we see Satan going after the left
behind saints, who did'nt make themselfs ready to meet the bridegroom
(May be wrong on this, as Jesus says the door was shut).



As a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they
may also be part of the (falling away), as we see in Daniel... he says they
fell that they would be tried and made white (Daniel 11:35)... Now, the 24 elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they
seem to be raptured saints or part of the redeemed New Testament Church...but even some Pre-trib theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why? well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the bible...Lets have a look.


KJV Version
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall
reign on the earth.



ASV Version
Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto
God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10 and madest THEM to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and THEY reign upon earth.


BBE Version
Rev 5:9 And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right
for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and
have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and
language, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY are ruling on the earth.



CEV Version
Rev 5:9 Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll
and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you
bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.
Rev 5:10 You let THEM become kings and serve God as priests, and THEY will rule on earth."




ISV Version
Rev 5:8 When the lamb had taken the scroll, (the four living creatures and
the twenty-four elders) bowed down in front of him.( Each held a harp) and a
gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 (They sang a new song): "You are worthy to take the scroll and open
its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased
people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
Rev 5:10 You made THEM a kingdom and priests for our God, and THEY will
reign on the earth."




Also notice the last version i used above, you will see that the four beast
are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old
testament as being cherubims Eze 1:10 . So how could angelic beings sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? or be redeemed from every tribe, language, people, and nation, by the blood of
Christ? and reign on the earth, as kings and priest? Jesus Christ did'nt
shed his blood for angelic creatures. So this is basicly impossible...these
four beast and the 24 elders, are singing a song (for the redeemed), not a
song (of the redeemed). This is just common sense, when its read in its
context.




As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...Well i dont have all the
versions, but the ones i do have don't make them out to be a redeemed
Church. So there must have been a (mis-translation on these words)...also
there is no proof anywhere that these 24 elders represent Raptured saints, i
mean a redeemed N.T Church...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the
Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this
interpretation. As we should know this won't work, because the Great
multitude came out of the Great tribulation, (Jacobs trouble, and Daniel
says this will be 3 1/2 years, of great tribulation...not seven).

The Antichrist is probably only going to be revealed in the middle of his
covenant with Israel...this is when he causes the abomination of desolation.
Then begins the Great tribulation..(ie a time and times and the dividing of
time...Daniel 7:25) you will also see that the Woman was protected from the
face of the serpent (Satan) for a time, and times, and the dividing of time,
Rev 12:14. The two witnesses of revelation have this time stamp as well,
they will prophecy for one thousand two hundred sixty days. 42 months is
also mentioned Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5... which is equal two 3 1/2 years also.


So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


As John did'nt say who they were, or where they came from,we have to leave them just as they are, and that is just that they are 24 elders in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there are no prophecies about them, and all other newer versions of the bibles i list, don't make them out to be part of the Rapture, or the redeemed of the Church age.




My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, ...I may be
incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured
out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great Tribulation,
is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to become a Nation of
people, who will be born in one day, or broth forth...


Isaiah 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith
the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Revelation
Chapter 12. It is also a real good endtime prophecy, of God setting up his
kingdom.



The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem "ie Israel')


A promise was also given to the saints, to rule with a rod of iron, along
side Christ...below

Rev 2:26 (And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him
will I give power over the nations
Rev 2:27 (And he shall rule them with a rod of iron); as the vessels of a
potter shall they be broken to shivers: (even as I received of my Father).



Bible theologians agree that the Woman of revelation Chapter 12 represents
Israel, because of her crown of twelve stars. These stars could represent
the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles, but we must not forget that Jerusalem is
in Israel, and is the city of God.


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with
the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to
be delivered.


Isa 26:17 (Like as a woman with child), that draweth near the time of her
delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy
sight, O LORD.


Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and (see whether a man doth travail with child)?
wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in
travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even
the (time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it).



The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the old
testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these
birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of iron.
Don't forget that the above O.T prophecies are semi symbolic, so is the
Woman of Revelation Chapter 12.



Rev 12:5 (And she brought forth a Manchild), who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his
throne.



(Raptured from the Great Tribulation )... This is not a Secret Rapture, its
right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried
away...the woman was also carried away and lead to the wilderness... I think
for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12
has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people
thought this Manchild was Jesus Christ. ( as i said... nowhere in bible
prophecy is Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild, and the saints will
also rule with a rod of iron with him... Rev 2:26,27).


You could argue that this is taking away the right of Christ to rule with a rod of iron...but thats not the case, this looks or seems like your degrading Christ, but thats not the case either, there is prophecy to back it up, Isaiah 66:7,8 and Revelation 2:26,27 plus many more on this Woman in travail.


A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The
Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit
Jews?...I doubt it.


Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your
brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the
LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be
ashamed.


(Isa 66:6 ) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice
of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isa 66:7 (Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came,
she was delivered of a (Manchild).

Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things)? Shall
the (earth be made to bring forth) in one day? or (shall a nation be born at
once?) for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth (her children).

Isa 66:9 ( Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth)? saith
the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb)? saith thy God.

Isa 66:8 (Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things) Shall
the(earth be made to bring forth) in one day?...

As we see, here is something taking place, that never took place before, the earth is bringing forth children (ie reserrection)...and a nation will be made with them.



Rom 8:22 For we know that (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in
pain) together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
of the Spirit, (even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the
adoption, to wit, (the redemption of our body).


The Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus).
look at Isaiah (66.6) a voice from the Temple, that rendereth recompence to
his enemies?... Its interesting that i was looking for passages with 666 in
them, when i stumbled upon this.



The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem (ie Israel), and
part of Gods people. Jerusalem symbolicly...will bring forth her children in
travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If
you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and
Revelation Chapter 12"




The falling away.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed),
the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or
that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God),
shewing himself that he is God.


Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Trib teachers say this
falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sense at all. Lets see what
Daniel says.


Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to
purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is
yet for a time appointed.


So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them
white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is
certainly not the rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough, you can
make one...I can make a Rapture of the Church with the two witnesses if i
try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make a rapture, my study is
to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12, is
definitly a Rapture...he was Caught up to God.



Hereafter the Church?

Some say that the apostle John, being in the spirit on the lords day is the
rapture... because he was told to come up hither to right the things that
must be hearafter..some have a saying, that the hearafter means hearafter
the Church. John was caught up (in spirit, not body,) the saints will have a
(bodily resurrection...so that don't fit). Plus John was caught up to heaven
in spirit almost 2000 years ago... to say that this is the Rapture of the
New Testament Church... is to say the Rapture took place at that time.
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and
the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me;
which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which (must be
hereafter). (ie take place in the future)
Rev 4:2 And immediately (I was in the spirit): and, behold, a throne was
set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Hereafter in the above verses means the future... not hereafter the Church.
After John delivered the seven letters to the seven churches, and the book
of revelation, John was done his writeing. The Church carried on into the
future, with the book of revelation as a guide to endtime events, and is
still carrying on.

More to come...

God bless all

REaders, this is mostly human reasoning with a little truth.
The manchild of Rev. 12 IS Jesus.

This short 5 verse story is only God showing John what the dragon DID (past tense) when Jesus was born, how the dragon tried to kill Him as a baby. It was a "history lesson" written as a parenthesis (out of sync with the chronology of the book.) This chapter, chapter 12, is God introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon will do during the second half of the week. If you count, you will find the dragon is mentioned I believe over 30 times in this chapter.


John TELLS us this:

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

(The saints will also rule with Him.)

What "woman" gave birth to Jesus? Who else had the same symbols? OF course Israel - Jesus came from ISRAEL. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. Who for the most part lives in Judea today? Of course, the descendants of Jacob, Israelis. OF COURSE JESUS, the manchild, was "caught up to heaven." He "ascended" and disappeared in a cloud. Many SAW this event!

I will agree, however, thinking that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture is TERRIBLE Bible exegesis. Even a 5th grader could tell us that was JOHN being caught up into heaven to be shown what was coming in the future.

I agree too, "the falling away" is certainly not the rapture - it was a very poor job of translation. It is in error. Most of the first translations into English were better. They used "departing."

How in the world could "falling away" keep with the THEME of the passage, the "gathering?" It does not. So this passage IS the departing or rapture of the church. At least one Greek scholar has said that apastasia could well mean a "spacial departure," that is, a group of people taken from a larger group and MOVED to another location. "Departing" is a good translation that FITS THE THEME of "THE Gathering." Did Paul mention a SIGNIFICANT falling away in his first letter? Certainly not! Did he mention a SIGNIFICANT "CATCHING AWAY? Certainly he did! And Paul CLEARLY tells us that before the man of sin can be revealed, the one restraining him MUST BE "TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." Will the rapture take something "out of the way?" Most certainly it will!

As for the HUGE group, too large to number, who John was told came out of "great tribulation." Does this specifically say they came out of the SAME GT that Jesus spoke of that would be greater tribulation than any other time on earth, before or after? NO! Most certainly NOT. And in context, John COULD NOT have meant that GT that Jesus spoke of. The days of GT that Jesus spoke of, that will be greater than any other time on earth, will NOT BEGIN until Satan is cast down from heaven in Rev. 12. John saw this huge group - too large to number - in chapter 7, BEFORE THE 70th week even begins! So it certainly cannot be speaking of the same "great tribulation." So what is John's meaning? Don't forget, Jesus told one of the churches in Rev. 2:22 that He would cast those with the prostitute "into great tribulation!" These people lived almost 2000 years ago! Most certainly Jesus promise to them did not mean the days of GT He spoke of in Matt. 24! No, here in Rev. 2:22, He only meant, God can created days of GT anytime and anywhere! So what was John's meaning? Only this, by the time the rapture comes, it will "great tribulation" around the planet. NOT so bad as the days Jesus spoke of, because that time will not come until Satan is cast down, but it will be bad. People will be being put to death ONLY because they love Jesus, around the world! That is John's meaning. It is that way in half the world already.

Daniel 11:35 is speaking of JEWS, NOT the Gentile church.

I also agree, the 24 elders do NOT represent the rapture. In fact, if one really understands the vision of the throne room there, that was a vision of the PAST: John was looking BACK in time to a time where Jesus was STILL ON THE EARTH, before He rose from the dead. So how could those 24 elders in heaven, before Jesus even rose from the dead, represent a rapture? Impossible.

Coop

 

[Romans 8.28]

Introduction

This study is a Pre-great-trib rapture study, so it is pre-trib in a way, but
not the way the Pre-trib rapture has been taught all this time

So, where did these 24 elders come from? since we see the four beast in
the Old testament, but not the 24 elders. Well, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints, ... and likely prophets, Matthew 27:52, and we also see Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration...These 24 elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints chosen by God to be elders in heaven after they were resurrected at the ressurection of Christ. 1 Corintians 15:23 says But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Dear Fellowservant, context of Revelation is New Testament. Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

Thus the twenty-four elders and the four livings ones are of the Church. As you mentioned, Revelation 5:9 shows both the twenty-four elders and the four beasts singing a common song; And they sung a new song, saying, . . . . thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

A most common problem presents itself with many here, because there are two groups of one united pre-trib rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: and 1 Thessalonians 4: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who are the dead overcomers of this rapture to rise first? Revelation 2:10 . . be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Who are those alive and delivered alive to be delivered from the temptation to come upon all the world? Revelation 3:10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 3:11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Notice that these two churches of the seven churches are the only ones promised crowns and notice what is said of the twenty-four elders in Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne . . .

I'll try to get back with you on the rapture of the man child and who they are. I will say the man child is definitely not Jesus. I may post a separate thread on the man child.

My thoughts.

 

[jari]

Hi FellowServant , long post there and i didnt read it fully yet when this caught my eye.

(Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a manchild),
i can't stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If
Jesus is the manchild of Revelation chapter 12, then we have a simbolic woman giving birth to a literal man, and the woman is definitly not Mary the
mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for
protection (Ie 3 1/2 years) from the wrath of Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, the Jews. Jesus Christ also wasn't caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born...

Mary was carried to wilderness if it symbolizes egypt.
she went there after birth of Jesus. Matthew 2: 13
the satan was trying to destroy the child when it was born. rev 12:4 " ..... and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
Rev didnt say the child was caught up immidiately. (Jesus was caught up after his resurrection.)

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne



17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

seems to me its talking about Jesus , all the things match 100%

btw ruling with rod of iron is prophecy given only of Jesus.

God bless you....

 

[Romans 8.28]

Seems to me its talking about Jesus , all the things match 100%

btw ruling with rod of iron is prophecy given only of Jesus.

God bless you....

Hi Jari.

Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

Thanks.

 

[jari]

Hi Jari.

Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

Thanks.

like you quoted:

"even as I (Jesus) received of my Father."

Jesus has the rod of iron too:

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


i think it symbolizes power .

The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

Revelations isnt solely about future prophecies. its also about letters to churches. that's why its possible it may repeat past events.

 

[lecoop]

Hi Jari.

Revelation 2:26 And he (Overcomers from Thyatira that go into great tribulation) that overcometh, and keepeth my (Jesus') works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Revelation 2:27 And he (The one that overcomes) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I (Jesus) received of my Father.

The time frame of this must fit Revelation 1:1. The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. Am I missing something?

Thanks.

I think you are reading into this verse something it does not really say.

" to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

verse Please note: if one whole chapter was a "history lesson" about the days of Moses, and all the rest of the book as is written, would this verse still be true? Would God have shown John "things" of the future?

Of course it would! In fact, if God showed John TWO THINGS about the future, then spent the rest of the book showing John the recipe for manna, this statement would STILL be true.

I know, I am being silly. But please note what John did NOT write:

" to shew unto his servants ONLY things which must shortly come to pass;"

John did not write that, neither did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write it. So God was free then, to show John HISTORY as well as FUTURE events. In truth, BOTH are found in the pages of this book.

Next, "shortly" to God may not mean "shortly" to us. We may be thinking in seconds or maybe minutes. God may be thinking in eons, or ages.

Indeed, even a fifth grader reading this, could tell us that many of the things in this book have never happened yet. MOST of the book is still future.

Coop

 

[Romans 8.28]

like you quoted:

"even as I (Jesus) received of my Father."

Jesus has the rod of iron too:

Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

i think it symbolizes power .

Revelations isnt solely about future prophecies. its also about letters to churches. that's why its possible it may repeat past events.

With that in mind, I bring forth the scripture of Revelation 1:19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. These were different viewpoints given from the Lord's day.

What I want to make known here is that the man child of Revelation 12:5 fits the viewpoint of things hereafter in the revelation given to John when he is caught up into heaven. Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Yes, Jesus will rule with a rod of iron, and that will be with the word of God, but it is His followers He will use to exercise that rule. Notice one other thing concerning Revelation Chapter Twelve and its time frame. Revelation 12:6. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. This three and one half years is during the tribulation.

My thoughts.

 

[jari]

Hi Romans, let me ask you something...

This three and one half years is during the tribulation.

where do you get this number?

i find it bit odd that woman fleeing wilderness would represent tribulation. as the woman escape "it all" (persecuation, etc)


God bless

 

[Romans 8.28]

I think you are reading into this verse something it does not really say.

" to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;"

verse Please note: if one whole chapter was a "history lesson" about the days of Moses, and all the rest of the book as is written, would this verse still be true? Would God have shown John "things" of the future?

Of course it would! In fact, if God showed John TWO THINGS about the future, then spent the rest of the book showing John the recipe for manna, this statement would STILL be true.

I know, I am being silly. But please note what John did NOT write:

" to shew unto his servants ONLY things which must shortly come to pass;"

John did not write that, neither did the Holy Spirit inspire John to write it. So God was free then, to show John HISTORY as well as FUTURE events. In truth, BOTH are found in the pages of this book.

Next, "shortly" to God may not mean "shortly" to us. We may be thinking in seconds or maybe minutes. God may be thinking in eons, or ages.

Indeed, even a fifth grader reading this, could tell us that many of the things in this book have never happened yet. MOST of the book is still future.

Coop

I agree with most of what you say, but in this instance Jesus is telling His angel; not the Holy Spirit to tell John of things to yet come during 1260 days of the tribulation, and that includes the man child being caught up to God's throne. Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

[lecoop]

I agree with most of what you say, but in this instance Jesus is telling His angel; not the Holy Spirit to tell John of things to yet come during 1260 days of the tribulation, and that includes the man child being caught up to God's throne. Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

MY friends, WHERE is John in TIMING or CHRONOLOGY in chapter 12?

He is one or two seconds AFTER the abomination that divides the week onto two halves. REmember what Jesus told them? The moment they see the abomination they are to flee for their lives. So 12:6 will be ONLY a few seconds after the exact midpoint of the week.

So what is the meaning for the 1260 days or the time, times and half of time? They BOTH signify that John is at the midpoint of the week, and these two events BEGIN right at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Now, what about verses 1-5? How do they fit the chronology? Truthfully, they DON'T! Verses1-5 are written as a parenthesis and have no bearing on time at all. In fact, these five verses are a HISTORY LESSON speaking of when Jesus was born - showing John how the dragon (Satan) tried to kill Jesus as a baby.

Coop

 

[Romans 8.28]

MY friends, WHERE is John in TIMING or CHRONOLOGY in chapter 12?

He is one or two seconds AFTER the abomination that divides the week onto two halves. REmember what Jesus told them? The moment they see the abomination they are to flee for their lives. So 12:6 will be ONLY a few seconds after the exact midpoint of the week.

So what is the meaning for the 1260 days or the time, times and half of time? They BOTH signify that John is at the midpoint of the week, and these two events BEGIN right at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Now, what about verses 1-5? How do they fit the chronology? Truthfully, they DON'T! Verses1-5 are written as a parenthesis and have no bearing on time at all. In fact, these five verses are a HISTORY LESSON speaking of when Jesus was born - showing John how the dragon (Satan) tried to kill Jesus as a baby.

Coop

You've got the start of the second half of the tribulation correct, but there is no parenthesis concerning Jesus because the man child is not Him. Satan didn't even know of the birth of Christ. Herod in fact only learned of it through the questions of the wise men, and that was near two years after the fact.

 

[lecoop]

You've got the start of the second half of the tribulation correct, but there is no parenthesis concerning Jesus because the man child is not Him. Satan didn't even know of the birth of Christ. Herod in fact only learned of it through the questions of the wise men, and that was near two years after the fact.

Hmmmm. Did you ever think that perhaps the Dragon is (was) not as smart as God, and certainly had NO IDEA which baby was Jesus? Neither did He know when Jesus was born. All the events leading up to Jesus' birth were hidden from him. It was the dragon himself that had to learn from the wise men. We can be SURE the dragon was behind King Herod in killing the babies.

Who is the woman from whom the manchild (Jesus) was born? Did you read the story of Joseph? (Genesis 37:8-10) Always remember, this book is a "revealing" not a hiding! God is not making this difficult. A 5th grader could get this. Jesus came from ISRAEL. Mary was a JEWISH girl, a descendant of Jacob. Does it not say that the "woman" fled into the wilderness? What did Jesus say?

Mat. 24
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Do YOU live in Judea? Who does live there today? ISRAEL lives there today - descendants of Jacob. THEY are the ones to flee.

One day word of the Lord came, I heard God speak and I heard these words: "Chapter 12 is Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon will do during the 70th week. I chose to also show John what the dragon DID when I was born. That was a 'history lesson' for John." He told me to count how many times the word "dragon" was there, including pronouns. If I remember, the count was 32. I could easily believe this chapter was about the dragon. This may not be exactly word for word, but it is very close. Indeed, He sent to to study chapter 12, because I was studying chapters 4 & 5 and NOT GETTING IT at all. He had asked me three questions about those two chapters that I simply could not answer. Finally after weeks of bugging Him, He sent me to chapter 12, to learn "history lesson." In other words, something NOT future, but indeed, something from the past. This vision was given about 95 AD, and these 5 verses of history lesson were speaking of a time about 95 years into the past.

YOu may find it difficult to believe, but the vision of chapters 4 and 5 are also a "history lesson," speaking of things in the past of 95 AD. But we can get into those later. I lived through this experience. I heard God speak. Just as Paul was convinced His revelation was from God, so am I convinced. "My sheep hear my voice..." I know His voice.

Once again, God is NOT TRYING to hide things from us here, but to REVEAL them. It is a very simple 5 verse lesson of history concerning Jesus' birth.

Coop

 

[Romans 8.28]

Once again, God is NOT TRYING to hide things from us here, but to REVEAL them. It is a very simple 5 verse lesson of history concerning Jesus' birth.

Coop

The birth of Jesus was already revealed in the gospels, and John knew them. Sorry lecoop, I don't believe that Revelation Chapters Four forward are history. Revelation 4:1 After this (What?) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which MUST be hereafter.

The "What?" is John's rearward view shown him from the Lord's Day in Revelation Chapters one through three.

 

[lecoop]

The birth of Jesus was already revealed in the gospels, and John knew them. Sorry lecoop, I don't believe that Revelation Chapters Four forward are history. Revelation 4:1 After this (What?) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which MUST be hereafter.

The "What?" is John's rearward view shown him from the Lord's Day in Revelation Chapters one through three.

I heard this straight from the Master. And given enough time, I could convince almost everyone. First notice, John did NOT write:
I will shew thee ONLY things which MUST be hereafter.

John did not put "ONLY" in this verse. God DID show John many things from the future - still future to us today. But God certainly showed John things from the Past also. OF COURSE these things were history to John in 95 AD. We can get into these things in chapter 4 & 5 later. If you really study that vision of the throne room, there are CLUES that give away the timing.

John used the phrase "after this" or "after these things" I think 7 times in the book each time as a TRANSITIONAL phrase to transition from one part of the vision to another. I know many people want to ADD MEANING and say in 4:1 that it means after the church age. Nothing could be farther from the truth. John only meant, this new part of the vision was seen AFTER the vision of the letters to the churches.

John was NOT transported through time to the Day of the Lord, if that was your meaning. His meaning was, this vision happened on a SUNDAY, the day the Lord rose from the dead, and the day the early saints began to gather to worship.

The timing of chapter 4, when John was called up was around 95 AD by tradition. But the timing IN the vision can be determined from the context. For example, from eternities past to eternities future, there was ONLY a short period of time when the 2nd person of the trinity was NOT at the right hand of the Father. WHEN was this short period of time? There was a time when the Holy Spirit was in heaven, in the throne room, and another time when He was sent down. Again WHEN did this happen?

WHEN could a search have been made for one worthy, and Jesus Christ NOT have been found? These are simple questions, but they MUST be answered of one is to understand this vision of the throne room. And please notice, this vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT of the seals.

Coop

 

[Romans 8.28]

John did not put "ONLY" in this verse. God DID show John many things from the future - still future to us today. ButGod certainly showed John things from the Past also. OF COURSE these things were history to John in 95 AD. We can get into these things in chapter 4 & 5 later. If you really study that vision of the throne room, there are CLUES that give away the timing.

Coop, since God did not put the word "Only" in Revelation 4:1 referring to "Things hereafter", it's safe to assume it was not to be there. Since assumption is not my best suit, I will stick to things future in this case.

John used the phrase "after this" or "after these things" I think 7 times in the book each time as a TRANSITIONAL phrase to transition from one part of the vision to another. I know many people want to ADD MEANING and say in 4:1 that it means after the church age. Nothing could be farther from the truth. John only meant, this new part of the vision was seen AFTER the vision of the letters to the churches.

Every day is a day of the Lord according to Psalms 118:24. This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. When we read of the Lord's day in Revelation it is certainly not speaking of Sunday. This begins the thousand year reign of our Lord when He sits upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2 surrounded by saints. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. This is a translation to that future time for John where he will witness in person the things the Lord is showing him. John was always in the Spirit, but this is different; he is transported forward in time to the very day Jesus will be crowned King of kings and Lord of lords. Compare the many references of the Day of the Lord, In that day, and other scripture revealing that future time.

The thing you seem to miss in all this is the fact than even though you state the different visions were transitions from one event to another if I remember it correctly, John was given a review of this present age as it were and wrote of them in the first three chapters of Revelation. That said, Jesus spews out the having become the lukewarm church in Revelation 3:16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Even though Jesus had been given al power and authority in Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, in this present age He has not taken that power as yet. He remains at the right hand of our Father as our intercessor, and He walks among the candlesticks judging the churches which we read of in Revelation Chapters Two and Three. He even revealed this to Paul as Paul writes in Hebrews 2:8 . . . But now we see not yet all things put under him.

To receive a real revelation of the timing of this, you might want to realize who Jesus' angel of Revelation 1:1 is. Who is he, how did he get there, and what is his purpose? I'll say this, he certainly isn't history, though he may have come from history.

Enough for now or these posts just extend beyond reason to respond to. Thanks Coop.

 

[lecoop]

Coop, since God did not put the word "Only" in Revelation 4:1 referring to "Things hereafter", it's safe to assume it was not to be there. Since assumption is not my best suit, I will stick to things future in this case.



Every day is a day of the Lord according to Psalms 118:24. This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. When we read of the Lord's day in Revelation it is certainly not speaking of Sunday. This begins the thousand year reign of our Lord when He sits upon His own throne in Revelation 4:2 surrounded by saints. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. This is a translation to that future time for John where he will witness in person the things the Lord is showing him. John was always in the Spirit, but this is different; he is transported forward in time to the very day Jesus will be crowned King of kings and Lord of lords. Compare the many references of the Day of the Lord, In that day, and other scripture revealing that future time.

The thing you seem to miss in all this is the fact than even though you state the different visions were transitions from one event to another if I remember it correctly, John was given a review of this present age as it were and wrote of them in the first three chapters of Revelation. That said, Jesus spews out the having become the lukewarm church in Revelation 3:16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Even though Jesus had been given al power and authority in Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, in this present age He has not taken that power as yet. He remains at the right hand of our Father as our intercessor, and He walks among the candlesticks judging the churches which we read of in Revelation Chapters Two and Three. He even revealed this to Paul as Paul writes in Hebrews 2:8 . . . But now we see not yet all things put under him.

To receive a real revelation of the timing of this, you might want to realize who Jesus' angel of Revelation 1:1 is. Who is he, how did he get there, and what is his purpose? I'll say this, he certainly isn't history, though he may have come from history.

Enough for now or these posts just extend beyond reason to respond to. Thanks Coop.

Rev 1
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30717">19</sup>Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I believe this means past, present and future events. It includes all three.

Of course you are free to believe John was transported into the future - but that sounds more like Star Trek that the Bible. Is there ONE other example in the bible of people being transported through TIME? I think that is really STRETCHING the simple meaning of it being SUNDAY, or the Lord's day, when John saw all these visions.

The next problem with this theory is that there were people living in 95 AD in those churches to whom the letter to that church was directed. Consider the prophetess and the men associated with her. That letter was for that time, as well as all future churches that in might fit.

The transition from chapter 4 to chapter 5 is only that: a transition in the vision. It was certainly not a transportation in time. That would be adding meaning to words not meant to convey that meaning.

Now, concerning the vision of chapter 4: did you even consider the question: WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? You can avoid this question, but I couldn't because GOD ask it of me. I had to find the answer. He also asked me why "no man was found" in a vision seen in 95 AD. If we read ahead, of course Jesus was found, but John watched a thorough search, from beginning to end, END IN FAILURE. You MUST find the answer to this question of you wish to know the truth and the intended meaning of the Author.

Finally, WHY was the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, IN the throne room of heaven, when Jesus said He would send Him down?

Did you ever notice the passing of time in that vision of the throne room? Again, I could NOT overlook that because God ASKED me.

All of this was so we could ascertain the correct time in the last few verses of chapter 5. WHEN did Jesus take the scroll or book from the hand of the FAther? The CORRECT timing is there for all to learn - if they dig deep and understand.

Care to try answering any of these questions?

P.S. Since God did NOT put "only" there then He was free to include past and present events, EXACTLY as verse 1:19 tells us, and exactly as we see in chapters 4 & 5, and 12.

Coop

 

[Brother Mike]

Lots of Rapture threads.

Sure been lots of rapture threads. More often we see Post tribbers just yaking away about this or that, but now groups that believe in Pre-Trib rapture...

Are we missing something the Lord is trying to tell us that may be coming up soon?

 

[Romans 8.28]

Revelation 1:19. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

I believe this means past, present and future events. It includes all three.

I believe that too, but the different vision viewpoints are separate. The Lord's Day is the starting point when Jesus takes His throne in Revelation 4:2, and from that day John is shown the different time aspects. They were the Church Age (Present), the Kingdom Age (1000 year reign of Christ), and as we read in Ephesians 1:10 . . . the dispensation of the fullness of times. (Eternity)

Is there ONE other example in the bible of people being transported through TIME?

Acts 8:39 . . . the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip . .

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death . . .

2 Kings 2:11 . . . Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, . . . such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Acts 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. Where could one see every kingdom of the world from? Was Jesus translated?

Make what you will of these, but nothing is hard for our LORD.

Coop, you fail to answer my questions and introduce new ones; we'll continue on forever this way. I have stated my position and will leave it now. I've come to the place I have no idea what you're attempting to put forth or your position of Revelation. Thanks anyway.

BTW - Jesus is not the man child of Revelation 12:5.

 

[Fellowservant]

Hi brothers Well i wrote this quite a wile back, as i seen parallels between Rev 12 and Isaiah 66, and other OT prophecies regarding this Woman in travail.

I myself think its impossible to understand the book of revelation without the OT prophets. But to each his own, there's a saying among honest bible teachers that the best interpreter of scripture is scripture.

So no offence still learning here...

Carry on, and God bless