Revived version of the rapture of the manchild

[Fellowservant]

Sure been lots of rapture threads. More often we see Post tribbers just yaking away about this or that, but now groups that believe in Pre-Trib rapture...

Are we missing something the Lord is trying to tell us that may be coming up soon?

Hi brother. this is an old tread i posted that got revived


God bless

 

[lecoop]

Sure been lots of rapture threads. More often we see Post tribbers just yaking away about this or that, but now groups that believe in Pre-Trib rapture...

Are we missing something the Lord is trying to tell us that may be coming up soon?

He is coming pre-trib as surely as night follows day and say follows night.
I am NOT going to miss it! But He is coming for those that are WATCHING for Him! A sleeping church will be left behind wondering why.

Yes, most certainly I have scriptures! All rapture scriptures are indeed PRETRIB.

Coop

 

[jari]

Yes, most certainly I have scriptures! All rapture scriptures are indeed PRETRIB.

hmm all rapture scriptures i have found are post-trib . we must be reading different bibles.....

as there are not a single verse in bible supporting pre-trib doctrine.

 

[Brother Mike]

Old Thread.

Hi brother. this is an old tread i posted that got revived

08/17/06.......... Ah, I did not even look. A thread brought back from the dead.

Lecoop has resurrection power living in him. (Or bored, hunting Threads he would like to discuss)

Still, It could be a sign.


Jesus is lord.

 

[jari]

Still, It could be a sign.

i dont personally like it when things get hyped. bible says God is not author confusion but peace right? So when we start guessing things it leads to uncertainty and confusion..
it could also be called false prophecy when people jump up saying time is near. this was exactly what Jesus warned about people coming to declare all kinds of things at the end times..

 

[jari]

I am NOT going to miss it! But He is coming for those that are WATCHING for Him! A sleeping church will be left behind wondering why.

can you back this statement with scrpture?

i dont think bible teaches us that you need "watch" to be saved. unless you believe your not saved at all... but only will be saved if you meet some "requirements".

 

[B-A-C]

There is so much stuff that is wrong in this thread, I don't even know where to begin.

The 3 1/2 years come from Rev 11:2 and Rev 11:3 (take your pick 1260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years, it's all the same amount no matter how you dice it).

Jesus - the man child. Jesus called himself the "son of man" more than any other name.

As for Jesus coming back pre-trib, the most compelling verses would be...
Matt 24:44, Mark 13:32, 1Thess 5:2, Matt 24:43 there are many others...
The reasoning is... the tribulation will be terrible no one can deny it is happening.
So If we know it is happening and Jesus is coming right after the tribulation, everyone will know when he is coming. But if he is coming before the tribulation, then as those verses say.. no one will know when he is coming.

 

[Romans 8.28]

Hi Jari, would you think that Jesus is in heaven when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2 and Him becoming King of kings and Lord of lords? If so, who and how do those twenty-four elders end up there with Him before the judgment of the tribulation even begin.

You're probably aware of Revelation 3:10 where Jesus promises those of the church in Philadelphia that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world because they patiently kept His word. The elders of Revelation 4:4, and the living ones of Revelation 4:6 get there ahead of others before all that tribulation begins.

My thoughts.

 

[jari]

thx bac

The 3 1/2 years come from Rev 11:2 and Rev 11:3 (take your pick 1260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years, it's all the same amount no matter how you dice it).

i see people use this to put time for the tribulation but it could be after the whole tribulation happens. if book of revelations is in chronocial order then this is indeed after trib and rapture.
as trib and rap happen rev chapters 6 & 7

As for Jesus coming back pre-trib, the most compelling verses would be...
Matt 24:44, Mark 13:32, 1Thess 5:2, Matt 24:43 there are many others...

these verses dont it self support pre-trib.... its just that when Jesus told to watch its generally connected to His coming and indeed Jesus said we dont know that day. But Jesus also told to watch for the tribulation it self.

So we are not only watching for the unknown date but for the tribulation that we should be preapred for.

The reasoning is... the tribulation will be terrible no one can deny it is happening.

yes but we still dont know date of His return. because this 3 & 1/2 half year time line is something taht has nothing to do with tribulation in mat 24

also its not that terrible as revelation chapter 6 is same as mat 24 if you ask me. rest of revelation i think comes after trip & rapture.

So If we know it is happening and Jesus is coming right after the tribulation, everyone will know when he is coming. But if he is coming before the tribulation, then as those verses say.. no one will know when he is coming.

we cant really know. even we would be given length of tribulation we cant pin point start date of it. because no one is going to say "hey tribulation begins today!".
the beginning of tribulation periord could be very subbtle and indeed theres no time given for it....

God bless you

 

[jari]

Hi Romans. God bless you

Hi Jari, would you think that Jesus is in heaven when He receives His own throne in Revelation 4:2 and Him becoming King of kings and Lord of lords? If so, who and how do those twenty-four elders end up there with Him before the judgment of the tribulation even begin.

You're probably aware of Revelation 3:10 where Jesus promises those of the church in Philadelphia that they will be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world because they patiently kept His word. The elders of Revelation 4:4, and the living ones of Revelation 4:6 get there ahead of others before all that tribulation begins.

My thoughts.

when Jesus rose from dead many dead rose also. There could be many people in heaven already.

the churches hour of temptation could be anything. we dont know if its tribulation or what it is.
and even it would be tribulation God didtn say He will take them out but to keep them from temptation.

 

[Romans 8.28]

When Jesus rose from dead many dead rose also. There could be many people in heaven already.

Bingo in my book showing that there could also be more than a single taking up or rapture. I will make one observation of those many that rose from the grave in Matthew 27:52 at Christ's resurrection; they were not the church but Old testament saints, and then many rose, not all.

You mentioned that there could be many in heaven already, and that is certainly true because when Jesus rose He first descended to paradise and took them captive. Paradise is now in heaven also, but they too are not the church. As the tribulation progresses there will be those slain for the word of God asking for vengeance from under the altar; another group not of the church.

We can count those of the church mentioned in Revelation Chapters Two and Three. Some are promised crowns, others have a palm leaf, a white stone. And then some are promised to reign with Christ, while others will be servants in the temple of God (Revelation 7:15). Some of the church are promised to be kept from the great temptation to come upon all the earth, while others are said to enter it.

Jari, are you familiar with the Ephods and the breastplate of judgment Abraham wore? Due to their walk with God, certain tribes were demoted as it were to different ranks when worn on the breastplate. A similar judgment is occurring as Jesus walks among the churches or candlesticks today. In Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The church in Thyatira is told to repent or be cast into great tribulation in Revelation 2:22. Dosesn't that suggest there's the faintest chance that if they do repent they will be spared that tribulation?

Note one last thing if you're not tired by this time, there are seven conditions of the church described in Revelation Chapters Two and Three; there is still but one church or body of Christ regardless of their spiritual state. Two are commended and have crowns, and the remaining five are told to repent. Judgment begins at the house of God, and this is it (1 Peter 4:17). There are two groups with Jesus when He takes His throne; Philadelphia and Smyrna are the only ones to have crowns, and Smyrna represent the dead in Christ who will rise first, and Philadelphia them that will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

BTW. Notice in Revelation 4:4 those twenty-four elders wearing crowns.

My thoughts and blessings to you in Jesus' name.

 

[Brother Mike]

Many Raptures.

Well, the church removed, the two Witnesses taken, the 144,000 suddenly appear in the throne room of God, sure they did not walk. Jesus comes with the angels at the end.

I don't think counting raptures is important, certainly People have been translated, moved, taken. People claim to have visited heaven, no reason to doubt all of them, since Heaven is really home.

The concept is important and we miss the operation of God, trying to count things we were told to never count and fit things we never should try to fit.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

The church in Thyatira is told to repent or be cast into great tribulation in Revelation 2:22. Dosesn't that suggest there's the faintest chance that if they do repent they will be spared that tribulation?

i think its different tribulation. its some great tribulation given only to these people unless they repent.

to rest of your i just say im not that familiar with all that stuff. i think tribulation and rapture are simple for those who remain meaning all believers who remain.
and its the same for all of them.

 

[jari]

Well, the church removed, the two Witnesses taken, the 144,000 suddenly appear in the throne room of God, sure they did not walk. Jesus comes with the angels at the end.

I don't think counting raptures is important, certainly People have been translated, moved, taken. People claim to have visited heaven, no reason to doubt all of them, since Heaven is really home.

The concept is important and we miss the operation of God, trying to count things we were told to never count and fit things we never should try to fit.

Jesus Is Lord.

proplem with the 144000 is that we dont know in which rapture they came.

 

[Romans 8.28]

Brother Mike
Well, the church removed, the two Witnesses taken, the 144,000 suddenly appear in the throne room of God, sure they did not walk. Jesus comes with the angels at the end.

I don't think counting raptures is important, certainly People have been translated, moved, taken. People claim to have visited heaven, no reason to doubt all of them, since Heaven is really home.

The concept is important and we miss the operation of God, trying to count things we were told to never count and fit things we never should try to fit.

Jesus Is Lord.

proplem with the 144000 is that we dont know in which rapture they came.

Aw, we get back to the man child, and they are caught up unto God, and to his throne in Revelation 12:5.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Notice that they are present with the twenty-four elders and the four living ones before the throne. They are in fact the last portion of the Church to arrive some time before the middle of the week of tribulation. How do we know that? Revelation 14:7 Saying . . .the hour of His judgment is come. . ., and just follow the story line of their testimony.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women (Man child - also note the testimony of the five wise virgins); for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Man child), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14:5 . . They are without fault before the throne of God. They received the seal of the living God in Revelation 7:2.

I'll wait to see what this brings.

 

[lecoop]

hmm all rapture scriptures i have found are post-trib . we must be reading different bibles.....

as there are not a single verse in bible supporting pre-trib doctrine.

"Judas Iscariot went out and hanged himself..."
"Go thou and do likewise..."
"Be of good cheer, for this is the will of the Father concerning you."

You see, the bible can be made to say ANYTHING if verses are lifted out of their context.

I can assure you, your bible is just as pretrib as mine. The problem is not the bible, it is the understanding.

The bible speaks of three groups of people: the church, the nations and Israel. One must discover which group a verse is addressing for a clear understanding.

Paul was the ONLY writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture. Why then would anyone look for a rapture in other places? Perhaps one could find a "shadow" of the rapture in the Old Testament, but not a clear picture. Perhaps one could find a hint or a shadow in the gospels. But the revelation of the rapture was a MYSTERY until Paul received it and revealed it. Just that fact should tell you it was not written anywhere in the bible UNTIL Paul wrote it.

Not even John saw the rapture and wrote of it, for much of his book is concerning the 70th week that will follow the rapture.

HOWEVER, John was seeing a vision from heaven's perspective, and saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN before the 70th week even started.

Perhaps then, you need to gain some understanding. Scriptures usually don't have a plethora of meanings, as seems to be demonstrated by the hundreds of denominations or differences within denominations. All this division comes from a LACK OF UNDERSTANDING of the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. If we wish to understand HIS intent when he caused writers to write, then we MUST get HIS HELP. This takes hours of meditating on scripture, perhaps hundreds of hours, and a lot of praying in the Spirit. Trying to use human understanding is exactly what has CAUSED all our different denominations. How can anyone hope to know what was in the mind of the Holy Spirit unless they get close enough to Him to ask and hear?

Did you ever notice that MOST of the church world in the US has BYPASSED Acts 1 & 2? Did you know that one very prominent TV pastor was actually so ignorant he wrote (and probably said) that we cannot use the book of Acts for doctrine?

Coop

 

[jari]

I can assure you, your bible is just as pretrib as mine. The problem is not the bible, it is the understanding.

yes and verses for pre-trib support are?

its easy to read about post-trib. perhaps it was meant to be easy. maybe pre-trib is just twisting scripture. i dont mean to accuse anyone but could it be this is the error that's happening.

and saying Jesus talked about jews... lets think about that, why would Jesus ever talk about jews who dont read bible afterwards?

 

[lecoop]

yes and verses for pre-trib support are?

its easy to read about post-trib. perhaps it was meant to be easy. maybe pre-trib is just twisting scripture. i dont mean to accuse anyone but could it be this is the error that's happening.

and saying Jesus talked about jews... lets think about that, why would Jesus ever talk about jews who dont read bible afterwards?

I hope you understand, Jesus never spoke to ONE MEMBER of His church while He was alive. The church did not exist until after His resurrection.
As for the rapture, NO ONE EVERY HEARD of it until about 60 AD or so, 30 years after the day of Pentecost, when Paul received this revelation.

Since you know these things are true, do you look at Matt. 24 and imagine that Paul's rapture is in those verses? It is NOT.

I guess you have read 1 Thes. 4:17? Well, did you stop reading, or did you venture into chapter 5? Paul did not change subjects but continues on giving us the TIMING for the rapture in chapter 5. It is there in black and white for all to read. There Paul tells us clearly that the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord. So how in the world could the rapture come AFTER? Do you even know where the day of the Lord starts in Revelation?

Paul did not change his mind on the timing of the rapture when he wrote the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians. However, many people do not understand his treatise in this chapter of the gathering or rapture. But you can be SURE it is in agreement with the first letter. The secret to understanding 2 thes 2, is verses 6,7 & 8. They tell us something that is restraining the man of sin MUST BE removed before that man of sin can be revealed. If you believe Paul, you KNOW the theme of that passage is the gathering. Therefore, what ever or who ever is doing the restraining MUST have something to do with the theme, the gathering. If your theories of what Paul meant here does not answer the theme, the gathering, then your theory is wrong. If your theory does not answer the question as to who is "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin is revealed, then again your theory is faulty. Finally, if your theory here is not in TOTAL agreement with Paul's first letter, again, your theory will be WRONG.

There are two critical faults with the false doctrine of a post trib rapture. First, the Bride will never make it to her own wedding. Second, you have robbed God of any righteous people left in their natural body to replenish the earth. NO ONE has ever answered these problems with that false theory.

Coop

 

[jari]

I hope you understand, Jesus never spoke to ONE MEMBER of His church while He was alive. The church did not exist until after His resurrection.

this isnt true... they may have not been born again but Jesus didnt talk to jews who were to remain as jews. He started the new coveant with man and the first apostoles were called christians.

God never told jews any instructions just because they are jews. He wishes all men to be saved and Jews who dont believe in Jesus are not saved.

so in this sense there isnt even point telling jews things who are not interested in what Jesus says. As they dont believe He is the messiah.

I guess sometimes jews being God's chosen people gets into peoples head too much. They are still unsaved and disobedient to God even they are chosen.
infact only remnant will be saved............

Since you know these things are true, do you look at Matt. 24 and imagine that Paul's rapture is in those verses? It is NOT.

why not? theres only one rapture for christians i believe. and Jesus doesnt come back from coulds everyday with the angels.

so it must be it. why complicate the scripture....?

I guess you have read 1 Thes. 4:17? Well, did you stop reading, or did you venture into chapter 5? Paul did not change subjects but continues on giving us the TIMING for the rapture in chapter 5. It is there in black and white for all to read. There Paul tells us clearly that the rapture comes BEFORE the day of the Lord.

that's not what it says......

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

we remain until coming of the Lord. that's what Paul was talking about. Show me scripture where it says theres any delays with His coming and Rapture?

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


thats exactly like in mat 24. He comes from clouds and angels catch us up.

 

[lecoop]

this isnt true... they may have not been born again but Jesus didnt talk to jews who were to remain as jews. He started the new coveant with man and the first apostoles were called christians.

God never told jews any instructions just because they are jews. He wishes all men to be saved and Jews who dont believe in Jesus are not saved.

so in this sense there isnt even point telling jews things who are not interested in what Jesus says. As they dont believe He is the messiah.

I guess sometimes jews being God's chosen people gets into peoples head too much. They are still unsaved and disobedient to God even they are chosen.
infact only remnant will be saved............

OF COURSE it is true! Yes, he talked with the same men, his disciples, while He was alive, but they were NOT a part of the church at that time, for the church did not exist at that time. I know, if you read, you will find that Jesus had a lot to say to the scribes and Pharisees.

They are His chosen, because He chose Abraham, their father. I will agree, only a remnant will be saved, plus the 144,000 firstfruits.

why not? theres only one rapture for christians i believe. and Jesus doesnt come back from coulds everyday with the angels.

so it must be it. why complicate the scripture....?

OF COURSE there is only one rapture for Christians. No one is saying otherwise.

that's not what it says......

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

we remain until coming of the Lord. that's what Paul was talking about. Show me scripture where it says theres any delays with His coming and Rapture?

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


thats exactly like in mat 24. He comes from clouds and angels catch us up.

Again, you are not reading scripture with understanding, only reading with preconceived glasses on. TAKE THEM OFF!!! Is the rapture a coming? CERTAINLY it is. But is it the coming on the white horse? OF COURSE it is NOT. Again, KEEP READING into chapter 5. There God gives us the TIMING. You can make it say anything if you pull out of context. IN CONTEXT this comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord. Those is the darkness get the sudden destruction, while those in the light get "salvation." HOW do they get salvation? By way of RAPTURE.

Ah....WHERE do you see Angels gathering in verse 17?

So you say EXACTLY like Matt. 24? Please, TAKE OFF THE PRECONCEIVED GLASSES and answer this one question:

In Matthew 24, WHERE is this gathering done?

Coop