Revived version of the rapture of the manchild

[jari]

OF COURSE it is true! Yes, he talked with the same men, his disciples, while He was alive, but they were NOT a part of the church at that time, for the church did not exist at that time. I know, if you read, you will find that Jesus had a lot to say to the scribes and Pharisees.

i dont think you read my response.

pharisees wasnt saved either. Jesus was building the church from saved. first were the apostoles.

So you say EXACTLY like Matt. 24? Please, TAKE OFF THE PRECONCEIVED GLASSES and answer this one question:

you can have my glasses...
heres the verse:

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[lecoop]

i dont think you read my response.

pharisees wasnt saved either. Jesus was building the church from saved. first were the apostoles.




you can have my glasses...
heres the verse:

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

ROFL HA HA HA! HE HE HE!

So the rapture gathers from one end of heaven to the other?
HOW FUNNY!!! Those that are raptured are caught up from the EARTH.

You only THINK (in error) that this is talking about the rapture. This is days after the 70th week and LONG after the rapture, that Jesus gathers ISRAEL from everywhere back to Israel. It has NOTHING to do with the rapture.

Indeed, the 70th week is JEWISH or Israeli, and has absolutely nothing to do with the church. Did you never read about the blindness on Israel UNTIL the fulness from the Gentiles is brought in? AT that time God REMOVES this blindness and begins in earnest with the Jews. The great church age intermission is OVER and Jewish time continues, for ONE WEEK.

NO WHERE in the bible can you find that the 70th week is for the church. Did you ever read of Paul's 70th week? No no no! It is Daniel's (a JEWISH MAN) 70th week. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the church. That is why God has made a way of escape - or did you not read that either?

Look, Jari, if you wish to be left behind, there is little anyone can do: and God will CERTAINLY give you the desire of your heart. But since God has planned a way of escape, why in the world would you not want to TAKE IT? That seems like spitting in God's face. It seems like saying, "God, I know you said the Beast will overcome the saints, but I am different, I am wiser and stronger, and he won't overcome me!"

No no no! It is written that he overcomes the saints and that is exactly what will happen. If you choose to get LEFT BEHIND, you will then have ONLY ONE WAY to ever get to heaven: that is to reject the mark, refuse to bow, and lose your head. There will be NO OTHER WAY.

By the way, how were you planning on getting to the marriage and supper, held in HEAVEN after the 70th week and before His coming on the white horse? HOW?

And you have STILL not told us HOW God is going to replenish the population during the 1000 years, when all the righteous have been changed into angel type bodies?

These are two FATAL errors of post trib thought. You CANNOT ignore them, and you CANNOT answer them. They cannot be answered, because it is FALSE DOCTRINE. God KNOWS this so will come BEFORE the week to take out His bride. All those thinking they will see the Beast first, will not be watching for His coming and will be left behind.

Coop

 

[jari]

ROFL HA HA HA! HE HE HE!

So the rapture gathers from one end of heaven to the other?
HOW FUNNY!!! Those that are raptured are caught up from the EARTH.

You only THINK (in error) that this is talking about the rapture. This is days after the 70th week and LONG after the rapture, that Jesus gathers ISRAEL from everywhere back to Israel. It has NOTHING to do with the rapture.

Indeed, the 70th week is JEWISH or Israeli, and has absolutely nothing to do with the church. Did you never read about the blindness on Israel UNTIL the fulness from the Gentiles is brought in? AT that time God REMOVES this blindness and begins in earnest with the Jews. The great church age intermission is OVER and Jewish time continues, for ONE WEEK.

NO WHERE in the bible can you find that the 70th week is for the church. Did you ever read of Paul's 70th week? No no no! It is Daniel's (a JEWISH MAN) 70th week. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the church. That is why God has made a way of escape - or did you not read that either?

Look, Jari, if you wish to be left behind, there is little anyone can do: and God will CERTAINLY give you the desire of your heart. But since God has planned a way of escape, why in the world would you not want to TAKE IT? That seems like spitting in God's face. It seems like saying, "God, I know you said the Beast will overcome the saints, but I am different, I am wiser and stronger, and he won't overcome me!"

No no no! It is written that he overcomes the saints and that is exactly what will happen. If you choose to get LEFT BEHIND, you will then have ONLY ONE WAY to ever get to heaven: that is to reject the mark, refuse to bow, and lose your head. There will be NO OTHER WAY.

By the way, how were you planning on getting to the marriage and supper, held in HEAVEN after the 70th week and before His coming on the white horse? HOW?

And you have STILL not told us HOW God is going to replenish the population during the 1000 years, when all the righteous have been changed into angel type bodies?

These are two FATAL errors of post trib thought. You CANNOT ignore them, and you CANNOT answer them. They cannot be answered, because it is FALSE DOCTRINE. God KNOWS this so will come BEFORE the week to take out His bride. All those thinking they will see the Beast first, will not be watching for His coming and will be left behind.

Coop

more verses from mat 24:


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Jesus coming back from the clouds, sending his angels to gather His elect?

not rapture?

is He just passing by in the clouds?
are the angels just dragging jews back to promised land?

i think its the rapture... its not like Jesus shows him self in the clouds everyday. In fact biblically correct is to say Jesus comes only once.

These are two FATAL errors of post trib thought. You CANNOT ignore them, and you CANNOT answer them. They cannot be answered, because it is FALSE DOCTRINE. God KNOWS this so will come BEFORE the week to take out His bride. All those thinking they will see the Beast first, will not be watching for His coming and will be left behind.

you keep saying people can be left behind. do you have scripture to support this ?

 

[jari]

So the rapture gathers from one end of heaven to the other?
HOW FUNNY!!! Those that are raptured are caught up from the EARTH.

one end of heaven means the span of earth.

"they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[lecoop]

one end of heaven means the span of earth.

"they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

That is certainly an opinion - just not the intended meaning of the passage. God could have used OTHER words if He meant from the surface of the earth.

The verses that speak of the kingdom of heaven use this same Greek word. "Till heaven and earth pass away" uses this same word. "Neither by heaven for it is God's throne uses this same word.

Teaching that this verse is Paul's rapture is simply FALSE DOCTRINE. Of course you have the right to do that, but what does the Word say:that teachers have more responsibility and will CERTAINLY be held accountable for teaching false doctrine.

Now, PLEASE, Jari, take off your preconceived glasses and go and read 1 Thes. 4 & 5 CAREFULLY. The rapture Paul speaks of comes BEFORE the Day of the Lord begins. Did you never notice that BOTH the Day of the Lord, and His coming are said to be "as a thief in the night?" Why would God say that? Why BOTH come as a thief in the night? It is because the rapture is the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord. When the dead in Christ rise from the dead, it will cause a GREAT EARTHQUAKE around the entire planet. (Matt. 27 "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened") So Jesus comes as a thief in the night for the RAPTURE, which begins the Day of the Lord after we are safely GONE, and have escaped all these things.

I am convinced this is the "sudden destruction" that those in the darkness will face. But why, Jari, do those in the light NOT face this "sudden destruction?" It is because they get "salvation" and get to live together with Him." (And so shall we ever be with the Lord.) Jari, it is the RAPTURE that delivers the righteous from the sudden destruction. I am also convinced that this sudden destruction is the VERY SAME earthquake seen at the 6th seal, that comes as the SIGN and WARNING of the "Day of His wrath." (Rev. 6)

Did you not notice that John saw the church in heaven (Rev. 7) BEFORE John ever begins the 70th week of Daniel? (It begins with the 7th seal. His wrath also begins there. The first trumpet is a part of God's wrath.)

Finally, did you NOT NOTICE that the marriage and marriage supper are IN HEAVEN BEFORE Jesus descends on the white horse? (Mat 24:30)

JARI, how in the world would the Bride get to the wedding? When Jesus comes, the wedding is OVER! FINISHED, COMPLETED.

In your theory, the bride misses her OWN WEDDING.

Sorry, Jari, but your theory comes from the reasoning of man and has NOTHING to do with the intent of the Author of the Word of God.

You STILL have not explained how in your theory you will repopulate the world, for you will have all the righteous raptured and gain their resurrection body JUST BEFORE the entrance to the Millennial Kingdom is granted. You have also ROBBED the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment - in your wrong theory, THERE ARE NO SHEEP, for they will all have their resurrection bodies. Jari, have you not thought these things through? Your theory is only that, a false theory that is simply IMPOSSIBLE by the Word of God.

But please, if you wish to be LEFT BEHIND, God will honor your wishes - and leave you behind - so go right on ahead with your false theory.

But my question to you: since God has provided a WAY OF ESCAPE, via the pretrib rapture of the church, why in the world would you wish to tell God you REFUSE His way of escape? That is EXACTLY what you are doing.

Coop

 

[jari]

That is certainly an opinion - just not the intended meaning of the passage. God could have used OTHER words if He meant from the surface of the earth.

its older type of speech but we have similar ways of speaking in todays english.
for example what does compass show? it shows four air directions. right?
well they maybe called cardinal directions but in my language finnish we say air directions. but do we mean anything else than directions on earth? of course not.


so when you study bible its important to take into account that the english style maybe bit outdated or otherwise difficult to understand if you get too tangled up in the words.

 

[lecoop]

its older type of speech but we have similar ways of speaking in todays english.
for example what does compass show? it shows four air directions. right?
well they maybe called cardinal directions but in my language finnish we say air directions. but do we mean anything else than directions on earth? of course not.


so when you study bible its important to take into account that the english style maybe bit outdated or otherwise difficult to understand if you get too tangled up in the words.

Jari, your theories may seem good in your thinking, but they do NOT stand up to good Bible exegesis. Once again, you will MISS the marriage in heaven. Do you imagine it is not for you or others of the Body of Christ, but for some others not named? Do you imagine this is the will of God for you?

Do you imagine God will just somehow create new believers out of nothing, still in natural bodies to replenish the world during the millennial kingdom? Why not just believe what is written? It is simply IMPOSSIBLE that the rapture comes when you imagine it will, for that would rob God of any righteous people to enter His kingdom. He would end up King of NO ONE. Think about it!

Did you not stop to think that the gathering as shown in Mathew is exactly what a 5th grader would say, that this gathering is from BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH? (See the Luke version also.) This is NOT the rapture, it is God fulfilling His promise to gather ALL OF ISRAEL (the people) back to Israel (the land) in one day. Indeed, it has NOTHING to do with the church. That was Jesus speaking to HEBREW men about the end of THEIR AGE. i.e., the 70th week of Daniel. You seem to imagine this is misnamed and should be called the 70th week of PAUL (as if for the Gentile church).

Coop

 

[jari]

Jari, your theories may seem good in your thinking, but they do NOT stand up to good Bible exegesis. Once again, you will MISS the marriage in heaven. Do you imagine it is not for you or others of the Body of Christ, but for some others not named? Do you imagine this is the will of God for you?

i asked you backup things you say but i guess just insist everybody not so accurate in theology gets left behind.

you should really listen to a reason your bible egesis is very wrong and it keeps you under false doctrines and theological error.

bible is book meant to be understand. your acting like mat 24 is talking about angels who caught up people floting in air and no one else.
see how it doesnt work out that way?
we are allowed to use common sense and like i tried to explain the english just is bit old.

another example is that bible talks about four corners of the earth. does this mean bible says world is flat?
i guess according to you... but logical reasoning reveals its talking about the four air directions again.
and we can today say four air directions but that doesnt mean we think earth is flat its just what navigators use.

but i guess you dont listen to reason so i'll leave you with your bible exegesis.

 

[Fellowservant]

Well i went from Pre to mid and then post all in the span of maybe six months of study Confusing yes... but Christ said he would return after the tribulation.

One more thing i couldn't get my head around is the trib saints going in the (first resurrection). If the so called left behind trib martyred saints of rev Rev 20:4,5,6 go in the first resurrection, what resurrection do the pre-trib saints go in?

This is the big one according to rev 20:6 no more saint resurrections after this...

The rapture is the resurrection, last time i looked.

But as the scriptures say every man in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, then they that are his at his coming...

Prefer not to debate, as im not at all sure how this will turn out...

One thing i am sure of though, is that Christ told us to watch and pray to be able to escape all these things, and to stand before him when he comes.

So i guess im pan-trib now, it will all pan out in the end

God bless

 

[lecoop]

Well i went from Pre to mid and then post all in the span of maybe six months of study Confusing yes... but Christ said he would return after the tribulation.

One more thing i couldn't get my head around is the trib saints going in the (first resurrection). If the so called left behind trib martyred saints of rev Rev 20:4,5,6 go in the first resurrection, what resurrection do the pre-trib saints go in?

This is the big one according to rev 20:6 no more saint resurrections after this...

The rapture is the resurrection, last time i looked.

But as the scriptures say every man in his own order. Christ the firstfruits, then they that are his at his coming...

Prefer not to debate, as im not at all sure how this will turn out...

One thing i am sure of though, is that Christ told us to watch and pray to be able to escape all these things, and to stand before him when he comes.

So i guess im pan-trib now, it will all pan out in the end

God bless

There are ONLY TWO resurrections: one for the righteous, and one for all the rest.

If you look up the Greek word for "first" as in "first resurrection," you will see it can also mean, HONOR. It is an HONORABLE resurrection. It is NOT SAYING it will happen only once or one time. JESUS was a part of the HONORABLE resurrection. The dead in Christ will be a part of it. ALL the righteous who die by the BEAST will be a part of it.

And all the UNrighteous will take part in the DIS-honorable resurrection, the resurrection of the damned. It will be AFTER the 1000 years.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

i asked you backup things you say but i guess just insist everybody not so accurate in theology gets left behind.

you should really listen to a reason your bible egesis is very wrong and it keeps you under false doctrines and theological error.

bible is book meant to be understand. your acting like mat 24 is talking about angels who caught up people floting in air and no one else.
see how it doesnt work out that way?
we are allowed to use common sense and like i tried to explain the english just is bit old.

another example is that bible talks about four corners of the earth. does this mean bible says world is flat?
i guess according to you... but logical reasoning reveals its talking about the four air directions again.
and we can today say four air directions but that doesnt mean we think earth is flat its just what navigators use.

but i guess you dont listen to reason so i'll leave you with your bible exegesis.

I asked you to tell us HOW you plan on getting to the Marriage supper.
In your theory that will be IMPOSSIBLE.

Coop

 

[jari]

I asked you to tell us HOW you plan on getting to the Marriage supper.
In your theory that will be IMPOSSIBLE.

Coop

in theory? you havent showed any scriptures so i dont know what theory your talking about...

Coop God has saved us through His grace. no theories is going to save us.

your just refuting scripture that supports post-trib because it doesnt add up in your logic. so im not going to argue with you if you read bible different way but i suggest you rethink the possibility that you may have misunderstood certain verses meaning. seems to me you just ignore scripture as meaningless because there was something you didnt understand.

this is why we should study how people of those times used to speak. if we dont understand the way they spoke and how it differs from todays language we'll never understand bible correctly because bibles language is simply outdated compared to todays terminology.

its not fault in God's word its just todays world uses different terminology for somethings.

hope you understand what im saying.
God bless

 

[lecoop]

in theory? you havent showed any scriptures so i dont know what theory your talking about...

Coop God has saved us through His grace. no theories is going to save us.

your just refuting scripture that supports post-trib because it doesnt add up in your logic. so im not going to argue with you if you read bible different way but i suggest you rethink the possibility that you may have misunderstood certain verses meaning. seems to me you just ignore scripture as meaningless because there was something you didnt understand.

this is why we should study how people of those times used to speak. if we dont understand the way they spoke and how it differs from todays language we'll never understand bible correctly because bibles language is simply outdated compared to todays terminology.

its not fault in God's word its just todays world uses different terminology for somethings.

hope you understand what im saying.
God bless

Your "theory" means the way you interpret scriptures and then write it. In your mind the rapture comes at the end, when Jesus comes on the white horse. You are clearly wrong. In your theory the bride misses her OWN WEDDING. I the true version, the BIBLE verse, the Bride is AL

Did you never read Rev. 19? WHERE in that chapter is the wedding? WHERE in that chapter is Jesus on the white horse heading for earth?

 

[lecoop]

in theory? you havent showed any scriptures so i dont know what theory your talking about...

Coop God has saved us through His grace. no theories is going to save us.

your just refuting scripture that supports post-trib because it doesnt add up in your logic. so im not going to argue with you if you read bible different way but i suggest you rethink the possibility that you may have misunderstood certain verses meaning. seems to me you just ignore scripture as meaningless because there was something you didnt understand.

this is why we should study how people of those times used to speak. if we dont understand the way they spoke and how it differs from todays language we'll never understand bible correctly because bibles language is simply outdated compared to todays terminology.

its not fault in God's word its just todays world uses different terminology for somethings.

hope you understand what im saying.
God bless

Your "theory" means the way you interpret scriptures and then write it. In your mind the rapture comes at the end, when Jesus comes on the white horse. You are clearly wrong. In your theory the bride misses her OWN WEDDING. I the true version, the BIBLE verse, the Bride is ALREADY in heaven. She got there BEFORE Rev. 19. In fact, She got there BEFORE she was seen in Rev. chapter 7, for she was already there. This is the true bible version.

Did you never read Rev. 19? WHERE in that chapter is the wedding? WHERE in that chapter is Jesus on the white horse heading for earth?

Coop

 

[jari]

Your "theory" means the way you interpret scriptures and then write it. In your mind the rapture comes at the end, when Jesus comes on the white horse. You are clearly wrong. In your theory the bride misses her OWN WEDDING. I the true version, the BIBLE verse, the Bride is ALREADY in heaven. She got there BEFORE Rev. 19. In fact, She got there BEFORE she was seen in Rev. chapter 7, for she was already there. This is the true bible version.

Did you never read Rev. 19? WHERE in that chapter is the wedding? WHERE in that chapter is Jesus on the white horse heading for earth?

Coop

ok if you say so. i never noticed bridge got there so quick. but if you say so.

 

[lecoop]

ok if you say so. i never noticed bridge got there so quick. but if you say so.

I am not saying so, Rev. 19 makes it clear. Read it again: is the bride in heaven before the wedding or not? Is the wedding before Jesus gets on the white horse, or not?

Cooper

 

[jari]

I am not saying so, Rev. 19 makes it clear. Read it again: is the bride in heaven before the wedding or not? Is the wedding before Jesus gets on the white horse, or not?

Cooper

i dont know because it doesnt say in rev 19,

but ill trust what you say...
since bible doesnt it in rev 19....

i really dont want to argue if theres no scripture provided this serves no purpose .

 

[lecoop]

i dont know because it doesnt say in rev 19,

but ill trust what you say...
since bible doesnt it in rev 19....

i really dont want to argue if theres no scripture provided this serves no purpose .

Jari, must I do your homework for you?

Rev. 19
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’”

What is this telling us? "The marriage has come..." & "the wife has made herself ready..." is telling us the wedding is taking place IN HEAVEN at this time. Next, John mentions the marriage supper - with always comes AFTER the wedding - so in verse 9 it is time for the wedding supper. This tells us the wedding is OVER by verse 9 and it is time for the wedding supper.

What comes next, AFTER the wedding?

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse....

Jesus is now, AFTER the wedding and supper preparing to descend to the earth. Want more proof? (One should be enough.)

Luke 12:36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Rev 19
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Now, WHEN in this time-line in your theory is the rapture?

What verse will you show to prove your theory?

Coop

 

[jari]

mat 24 is pretty clear to me. after the tribulation..

when it says "the marriage of the Lamb has come" in revelations it doesnt tell how long they have been in heavens does it?
it says in chapter 7 that they are already there........

 

[lecoop]

mat 24 is pretty clear to me. after the tribulation..

when it says "the marriage of the Lamb has come" in revelations it doesnt tell how long they have been in heavens does it?
it says in chapter 7 that they are already there........

Jari, any theory one proposes for one scripture must be tried with ALL scripture. If one assumes the gathering in Matt. 24 is the rapture of the church, then one must check ALL scripture and see if that theory fits.

In fact, it does not fit! Jesus coming in Rev. 19 is AFTER the wedding, not before it. So it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the rapture to be when the gathering in Matt. 24 is - for at that time the wedding is OVER. Can you see that?

No, it does not tell how long - except we see the church in heaven in Rev. 7. For hour theory to work, the wedding would have to be AFTER the battle of Armageddon, not before Jesus begins to descend. Neither you nor anyone else has the right or privilege to re-arrange John's God given order or chronology. John's order is, marriage first, then Jesus heads for earth. So the gathering shown in Matt. 24 MUST BE as Jesus descends: Somewhere in these verses:

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30991">11</sup> Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30992">12</sup> His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30993">13</sup> He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NLT-30994">14</sup> The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses.

AGain, at this time the wedding has finished. So please explain to us HOW anyone being gathered at this time can make it to a wedding that has FINISHED and is history?

What you are suggesting is simply impossible. The ONLY conclusion then one could draw is that the gathering in Matt. 24 is NOT the rapture. And when you read it closely, it cannot be. We are gathered from the surface of the earth. Angels do not gather us: we instantly get bodies like angels.

Did you not read that the armies of heaven come back WITH Him in Rev. 19? That is the Bride of Christ and the angels returning WITH Him. how then could we possibly be raptured and at the same time come WITH Him? Again impossible.

Please, Jari, instead of trying to change the word of God, change your theory.

Coop