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Satan’s Prime Target and focus….Israel? Or the Church??

brakelite

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
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873
First, the following is a rather long article, but please be patient and give it your most serious and prayerful consideration.Your eternal destiny, and those of your families, may well depend on how you respond to the following. This said however, I am brakelite. I cannot change anyone's beliefs, let alone heart, such a miracle I leave in God's hands. All I ask is that you read this as you would when you 'read' a brakelite on the highway. Pause, consider your present course and speed, consider your options, and act accordingly. I cannot ask more.

The modern controversy that exists between the various hermeneutical methods of prophetic interpretation, those being preterist, historicist, and futurist, goes deeper than simply being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ regards understanding prophecy. What we teach has far greater impact than we can possibly know. The Holy Spirit I believe has just revealed to me something that the futurist hermeneutic demands, something that distorts and confuses the truth of the war that is currently raging between the powers of darkness and Christ. This war is a fact of life for all who believe and all who reject Christ as Savior. We believers are intimately engaged in this war. through prayer, through the sharing of the gospel, we are not only at the front lines, but are also the ultimate prize to be claimed by the eventual victor, who we know of course to be Jesus.
So what is this tenet of futurism that distorts the truth of this spiritual warfare? It is the core belief among futurists that the nation of Israel is central to future prophetic fulfillment. And how does this teaching distort truth? By giving Christians a false sense of security. If Satan’s attention is focused upon the Middle East, then the church must be free to go about its business unmolested right? For today’s Christian who believes the futurist propaganda, there is no real urgent need to guard against deception, after all, according to most, the church won’t even be around when Israel is taken over by the Antichrist. The church doesn’t need to worry about the mark of the beast, the deceptions of the last days, the plagues, the impersonation of Christ by Satan etc, we can just cruise along and let those who are left behind worry about all those things. Of curse, this line of reasoning may be somewhat exaggerated, but I am convinced the principles of that argument are common, and for that reason the church I believe is in great danger of being totally deceived, if she hasn’t been already.

For 6000 years Satan, our adversary, and Jesus’ arch enemy, has waged relentless war against God’s people. When Jesus was here in person, Satan attacked Him viciously, constantly, unrelentingly, culminating at Calvary. When Jesus arose from the grave, much to Satan’s horror, he continued his attacks, but because Jesus was personally out of reach, Satan targeted his attacks against those who remained, Christ’s ambassadors or representatives, the church. The nation of Israel, for so long Satan’s prime focus because it was the nation, or more specifically the tribe of Judah and even more specifically the family of David, that was to be the vehicle for the birth of the Messiah. Throughout the OT we see Satan’s attempts to wipe out the root, that the fruit could not result. Particularly we see this in his targeting of the family of David, and his constant temptations to false worship, knowing that God’s wrath and discipline would result in their destruction. The story of Solomon’s idolatry, the dividing of the nation, and the ensuing war between Rehoboam and Jereboam, are a glowing example. Yet God in His mercy preserved a remnant. There has always been a remnant that has been the recipients and keepers of the truth. Israel though, after rejecting Christ, were themselves rejected as God’s “chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15.) Paul, among others, were now the chosen vessel. God’s people were no longer recognized as a nation, but as a church.
So take a look at history. Was Satan aware of this change in paradigm? Absolutely! He knew very well who his most dangerous foe now was. It was those who now knew the truth of God’s love as revealed in the gospels. His attacks were directed against first, God’s people, and second, against God’s word. The former religious elite of the nation of Israel were Satan’s first agents in his attacks against the church. Then pagan Rome became his chief weapon, and after the failure of violence to quell the growth of the church, raised up a false Christian edifice, began to attack the scriptures and the peoples’ access to them, and introduced a raft of false doctrines, creeds, and superstitions that had a huge effect upon the church, and literally tens of thousands were seduced and beguiled by the sophistries of the Roman clergy that inherited the thrones of the Caesars. The little horn that had grown from the head of the 4th beast of Daniel 7 was growing powerful and by the 4th and 5th centuries was demanding all churches everywhere to submit to papal authority. Satan was at last finding far greater success with deception than he had with blatant persecution.
However, there were pockets of resistance. The Celtic church in Britain and Ireland; the churches of Africa, India, and Asia; and the Waldenses of the Piedmont on the papal doorstep retained the truth in Christ and taught the gospel as it was handed down to them from the apostles. They had the scriptures in an unadulterated form, not based on the Gnostic ramblings of Alexandria, and subsequently to the Latin Vulgate of Jerome, but upon the Syraic translations of Lucian of Antioch. These truth bearers were having a powerful impact on paganism wherever they went. In Europe however, where the papacy had far greater influence and where she had the ears of the kings and queens that had surrendered their authority and sovereignty to Rome, these agents of truth found bitter and violent opposition. Satan was not about to relinquish his hold on the minds and the hearts of his deceived subjects so readily. Violence was once again brought to bear, and terrible was the resulting horrors. The inquisitions, the crusades, and various other wars and conflicts that ensued over the next 1000 years or so in Europe claimed it is said at least 50 million lives of those who would not bow their knee to Baal.
1000 years of war, both of a spiritual nature and physical, dominated history throughout the European theatre. Those who clung to the truth, who trusted in Christ and refused to surrender to Roman authority, paid for their fidelity with their lives. Their blood now lies in the earth, but bears powerful witness to those who remained to testify to Rome’s wickedness, and to Rome’s true identity as the Antichrist. Every reformer and leader of the reformation were unanimous in their condemning the papacy as the little horn, the man of sin. They, with courage that testified to God’s power within, exposed Rome’s errors, revealing to the world how the inheritor to the throne of the Roman pontiffex maximus, had replaced Christ as sole mediator, had introduced a system that usurped the true gospel, and had become Satan’s chief agent in his war against Christ. And the target? Truth, and those who would dare proclaim it.
The reformation became a powerful force, in fact so powerful that the council of Trent was primarily established to find a way to counter the tidal wave of truth that was even then, in the 16th century, threatening to engulf Rome. Another force was established to counter Protestantism at that time, and that was the Jesuits. Their sole purpose then, and remains so to this day, is to destroy Protestantism, or return such to submit once again to papal authority. Thus it was that while Rome could not deny the scriptural truths that supported Protestant identification of the Roman Antichrist, she realised she must devise some way to defuse these powerful arguments in such a way that sound logical, reasonable, and be acceptable to those who had little or no Biblical understanding. It was two Jesuits, sworn to overturn Protestant truth, that found a way. One established preterism, another futurism.
You see, the Protestant Reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow of time, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the barbarians carved up the empire. They knew all too well that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time period of the little horn. The historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. A correct understanding of Bible prophecy gave them the unmistakable mandate to unmask this system which had usurped the prerogatives of Christ and adulterated the truth of God!!
In a letter to Spalatin on February 24, 1520, Luther wrote:
“I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.”
When Luther wrote his book, To the German Nobility, his friends, fearing for his safety, asked him to suppress it. To this request Luther replied: “We here are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the true Antichrist. . . . personally I declare that I owe to the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.”
Two months after Luther made this statement, his book, On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church [notice that he is referring to the papacy as Babylon], was published. In it, Luther spoke of the papacy as “nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. . . . For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” In 1540, Luther wrote: “Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4) that will oppose and exalt himself above God and exalts his own above the commandments of God.”
Concerning the Man of Sin, Luther affirmed that the Antichrist “sitteth not in a stable of fiends, or in a swine-sty, or in a company of infidels, but in the highest and holiest place of all, namely, in the temple of God. . . .Is not this to sit in the temple of God, to profess himself to be the Ruler in the whole church? What is the temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, “The temple of God is holy, which temple you are?” To sit—what is it but to reign, to teach, and to judge? Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone? None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride.”
Luther was not alone in testifying to this. Yet today we have countless leaders of Protestantism who with their futurist hermeneutic pretend none of this happened. A thousand years of extremely important history involving the lives of millions of martyrs for the faith and revealing Satan’s craftiness and cunning and deceptions, is cast aside as if God didn’t know it was going to happen and left it out of prophecy. Jumping from pagan Rome to a yet unfulfilled future, over a thousand years of essential Christian history is trampled upon as if of no account. And by adopting Rome’s own creation modern theologians have effectively hidden the Antichrist from view in favour of conjecture and guesswork.
And not only so, but the real and very dangerous error of distorting and twisting the truth of who the true focus and target of Satan’s lies and deceptions. That is the church, not the nation of Israel. And through futurism our attention is diverted away from the true source of the coming crisis. We are directed to look at the middle east. To some future overlord who will enter the political scene with guns blazing wreaking havoc and vengeance against Israel. And while everyone takes the bait, bait cast out by Rome 400 years ago in the form of futurism, hook, line, sinker, and boat, Rome quietly is working throughout the world to return her wayward daughters to herself. Mother has put out the call to come home, and Protestants by the droves are responding.
Why would Satan, after 6000 years of focused malevolent and concerted war against God’s people, suddenly take a left turn and attack a nation that no longer has any relevance to God’s purposes in taking the gospel to the world, leaving the church to continue its mission unmolested? No folks, Revelation informs us that the whole world will be deceived into submitting to the Antichrist. This includes the vast majority of Christians who in their ignorance of scripture and their blind sheep-like following of their equally deceived pastors and teachers, are searching the horizon in vain expectation of a coming warlord to attack Israel while leaning over the back fence in apparent friendship is the true Antichrist wooing all to join her once again in passive submission to her traditions, superstitions, and heresies.
 
Amen brother ... the deception is almost insurmountable ... but some will understand the truth and history.
 
A nice article. Very cleverly written (I mean that in no derogatory sense.) What I don't understand is how people take these Scriptures and lift up their eyes to look out from them to where it is that these pieces can be put together and to know how it can all make sense. Attempting to observe these very spiritual things in the natural world rather than seeking some inward revelation or clue as to how God would have them actually gain some knowledge from it which would make an impact, which would allow them to actually move forward and take some action based on the precedent of the truth they have discovered. But that is not what I see here with any of these topics or conversations brought up on this board.

The revelation we get from God is supposed to do something. It's suppose to effect change, to create movement; it should be that if we are sincere enough in heart to receive some glorious revelation of God's truth then it will undoubtedly also be transmitted from us in such a powerful way as to accomplish the purpose for God having revealed it to begin with. Knowing what's going on in the world isn't going to purify our hearts and it won't give us the power to stand for Christ. These things aren't what we're looking for and none of it will be hard to identify when we are thrown into the midst of it and we are tried and persecuted for the sake of Christ. What we need to be doing is preparing our selves for the persecutions and hardships which are surely approaching the people of God's own choosing.
 
HarpT ... you said in part:

... ... These things aren't what we're looking for and none of it will be hard to identify when we are thrown into the midst of it and we are tried and persecuted for the sake of Christ. What we need to be doing is preparing our selves for the persecutions and hardships which are surely approaching the people of God's own choosing."

Spoken as the words of a confirmed futurist ... the deception is fulfilled.

When God destroys Mystery, Babylon that great city that rules over kings of the earth (Vatican City) I am sure there will be "christians" that will be saying ... how could God destroy such a great religious city?

Perhaps then, preterists and futurists will reexamine history and the book of Revelation, and the invention of those two Jesuits noted by Brakelite.
 
HarpT ... you said in part:

... ... These things aren't what we're looking for and none of it will be hard to identify when we are thrown into the midst of it and we are tried and persecuted for the sake of Christ. What we need to be doing is preparing our selves for the persecutions and hardships which are surely approaching the people of God's own choosing."

Spoken as the words of a confirmed futurist ... the deception is fulfilled.

When God destroys Mystery, Babylon that great city that rules over kings of the earth (Vatican City) I am sure there will be "christians" that will be saying ... how could God destroy such a great religious city?

Perhaps then, preterists and futurists will reexamine history and the book of Revelation, and the invention of those two Jesuits noted by Brakelite.

Your comment is nonproductive and definitely not posted for the purpose of showing or expressing God's love. All this high brow, high minded ultra philosophical "Christianity" (you'll excuse the redundancy of the quotations) will accomplish nothing. The instance you speak of will never occur because it only exists in your lifted up imagination. I don't know what a futurist is, and you know what? I don't care! I wouldn't believe if you told me. It's nonsense.

I really don't care how you feel about the words I posted, but whatever opinion you have developed of me is certainly false. You have no power to declare or establish the truth about who I am, that is a right reserved solely for the God who created me. And if you doubt what I'm writing here, why don't you ask Him your self and see what He tells you?

I enjoyed Brakelite's article. But don't think you can take a side against me 'cause there is no such thing. There's nothing wrong with appreciating Christian history. But if you think anyone has to know much about it to be faithful to God then I'd like to see your rational.

I know exactly what God tells me and nothing else. Because that's what He said and that's who I am. And that's what I can do. Because God wouldn't have said it otherwise. But you interjecting your opinion about who I am is impermissible and out of context. If you have a question or would like to know something about me, why don't you just ask? I'd be happy to give you whatever answer you're looking for!
 
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No one has said that "anyone has to know much about it to be faithful to God ... "
You have added a straw man to the conversation.

I understand your frustration as I too was a futurist for ten years and understand the hype of this interpretation or understanding.

Settle down brother ... I am not against you ... merely pointing out what "has happened'.
It was Sir Isaac Newton that stated ... we are not to become prophets, but to recognize the event when it comes to pass. This is "historicism" ... as opposed to preterism and futurism.
 
A nice article. Very cleverly written (I mean that in no derogatory sense.) What I don't understand is how people take these Scriptures and lift up their eyes to look out from them to where it is that these pieces can be put together and to know how it can all make sense. Attempting to observe these very spiritual things in the natural world rather than seeking some inward revelation or clue as to how God would have them actually gain some knowledge from it which would make an impact, which would allow them to actually move forward and take some action based on the precedent of the truth they have discovered. But that is not what I see here with any of these topics or conversations brought up on this board.

The revelation we get from God is supposed to do something. It's suppose to effect change, to create movement; it should be that if we are sincere enough in heart to receive some glorious revelation of God's truth then it will undoubtedly also be transmitted from us in such a powerful way as to accomplish the purpose for God having revealed it to begin with. Knowing what's going on in the world isn't going to purify our hearts and it won't give us the power to stand for Christ. These things aren't what we're looking for and none of it will be hard to identify when we are thrown into the midst of it and we are tried and persecuted for the sake of Christ. What we need to be doing is preparing our selves for the persecutions and hardships which are surely approaching the people of God's own choosing.
Hi. Thanks for the complimentary response. I understand where you are coming from. The study and focus upon prophecy by many has blinded them to the true intent of prophecy, that is to bring them closer to Jesus. When Jesus was speaking of things to come, it wasn't just to satisfy their curiosity, or give them an advantage over their peers, or for any other worldly reason, but as a form of encouragement in the face of adversity. John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

As we read prophecy, and then witness it coming to pass, even though we may be in desperate straits, we can be confident and have the assurance that Jesus is near, is in control of events, and all things will eventually work together for our good. (Rom.8:28).
So to the Bible's references to the Antichrist.


Are you aware that there is more detail concerning the character and nature of this entity than any other in the entire scriptures apart from Jesus Himself? Even Satan doesn’t get that much press, yet God has seen fit to describe the Antichrist with accuracy and detail no other earthly entity receives. In His love, God earnestly desires that every man, woman, and child on the planet makes no mistake regarding the identity of Antichrist. Antichrist poses such a threat that God has given us more than ample warning and information as to who or what this entity is. Yet today the majority of Christendom completely ignores the very heroes of our faith and the godly men and women of recent history who died as a result of their testimony, and look to the future for some mythical creature to fulfill their clairvoyant prognostications.

You mentioned that you didn't know what 'futurism' is. Please allow me to briefly explain. There are 3 principle methods of prophetic interpretation (hermeneutics) in the Christian world. They are preterism, historicism, and futurism.

Preterism places all prophecy in the distant past...the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad (the 'second coming' of Christ in judgement) it is claimed was the final culmination of prophecy. Futurism places the vast majority yet in the future, while historicism sees prophecy as a continual unfolding of events from the time the prophecy was first given to the second coming.

Now the above was the brief version. Following is the extended version for any who may be interested. I offer this in the hope that the reader may give pause and serious consideration to what he believes is imminent, and how to prepare for that coming crisis. As you said Harpt, it is important that we foster our relationship with Jesus....yet if we are deceived in some way concerning the nature and character of Jesus and how He dispenses salvation, then our worship is in vain. The following is offered in the hope that many will be enlightened to present day realities, using history as their template.This is a complete study of how the prophetic interpretations have changed over the centuries, and why. That change even is a fulfillment of prophecy, as I will now explain.
Of the little horn of Daniel 7, we read that he would “Think to change times and laws”. (Daniel 7:25)
What, then, is the meaning of the word “times”? An examination of the context will make it crystal clear. Let us go back in our minds to Daniel 2. We all remember the story. God gave the king a dream and when he woke up he couldn’t remember it. So the wise men of Babylon were called in, but they were unable to tell the king the dream or its meaning. Finally, through Daniel, God reminded the king of his dream and provided the interpretation. Even before Daniel described the dream and its meaning, the king was informed: “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all.”(Daniel 2:37-38)
God then proceeded to tell Nebuchadnezzar how history would unfold. Babylon would be succeeded by Medo-Persia, Medo- Persia would be followed by Greece, Greece would be supplanted by Rome, Rome would be divided into ten kingdoms and then God would set up His everlasting and indestructible kingdom. In short, God was telling Nebuchadnezzar: “Human history is under my control. I enthrone rulers and I depose them. I am able to predict precisely how historical events will unfold, and history will develop precisely as I have pre-established.” This is what Daniel meant when he said that God “changes the times and the seasons, removes kings and sets up kings”. It is God who reveals and determines the calendar of prophetic events!! Daniel 3 informs us that Nebuchadnezzar was unhappy with God’s prophetic scenario, so he built an image like the one he had seen in his dream but this one was made of gold from head to foot.
Most Bible scholars have totally missed the main point of Nebuchadnezzar’s rebellious act. The central issue is not worship or even obedience. The critical issue is, who controls human history. Will history unfold as God has announced or will history develop in harmony with the king’s scenario? The king is saying, in effect: “Daniel’s God has said that history will be composed of several kingdoms. But I say that my kingdom will last forever. And woe to him who dares question my perspective!!”
In short, Nebuchadnezzar thought he could change the times and seasons which God had already determined and announced. Don’t miss the point: IT WAS GOD’S CALENDAR OF PROPHETIC EVENTS WHICH NEBUCHADNEZZAR THOUGHT HE COULD CHANGE!!
But the story does not end here. There were three young men who refused to recognize the king’s changed calendar of prophetic events. We all know how the story ends. The three young men were delivered. God changed the king’s program. The significant verse is in Daniel 3:28 where the king states: “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word. . .” In the end, not only was Nebuchadnezzar unable to change God’s prophetic scenario, but God actually interrupted and changed the kings plans. We find a similar story in Daniel 6. There, Daniel kept the appointed time of prayer (6:10, 13). As a result, it appeared that the king’s unchangeable decree would result in Daniel’s death (6:8, 15, 17). But God intervened and overturned the king’s decree and delivered Daniel.
We must now move on to the New Testament. We will find that there is a remarkable agreement of both Testaments with regard to the meaning of the “times”. We will begin with Acts 1:7. But first we will read verse 6 for the context. Here the disciples ask Jesus: “Lord, wilt thou at this time, restore again the kingdom to Israel?” Here the disciples are asking a prophetic question. They want to know if God’s calendar of prophetic events for Israel will be fulfilled at this time or in the future.
Notice the answer Jesus gives: “It is not for you to know the times [kronos] or the seasons [kairos], which the Father hath put in his own power.” It is worthy of note that the Greek words kronos and kairos are coupled together, and, as we shall see, are frequently used synonymously throughout the New Testament. In this passage, as we saw in the book of Daniel, the times and seasons are under God’s control and they describe God’s calendar of prophetic events. In other words, Jesus is saying to his disciples: “Prophetic events [times and seasons] are under the control of my Father. He will determine when the kingdom will be restored to Israel”.
The apostle Paul employs a very similar expression in I Thessalonians 5:1: “But of the times [kairos] and the seasons [kairos], brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.” Here the apostle uses the word kairos twice. He then goes on to speak about future events, particularly the close of probation and the second coming of Jesus. Once again, the expression “times and seasons” refers to God’s calendar of prophetic events. In the Greek lexicon by Arndt and Gingrich, pp. 394-395, we are told that kairos can mean “definite, fixed time, determined or alloted time.” William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek- English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979). We are also told on page 395 of the same lexicon, that kairos is “one of the chief eschatological terms”. Very frequently both kairos and kronos are used to depict future events on God’s prophetic calendar. We will now look at several examples:
Matthew 16:3–Jesus speaks about discerning the signs of the times [kairos].
Luke 1:20–The angel Gabriel tells Zacharias that he will be dumb “because thou believest not my words which shall be fulfilled in their season [kairos]. Gabriel himself explains in the same verse that his words will be fulfilled when the things he spoke of “shall be performed.” Once again the word “season” refers to a previously determined prophetic event which is announced before it occurs.
Matthew 26:18–Jesus states that “his time [kairos] is at hand”. What He means is that He must die at the precise time which had been determined in God’s prophetic calendar.
Luke 21:24–In this text Jesus states that Jerusalem would be trodden under foot “until the times [kairos] of the Gentiles be fulfilled”. Once again, we have a prophetic period which is described by the word “times”.
Revelation 11:18 refers to “the time [kairos] of the dead, that they should be judged”. Whether this refers to the judgment of the righteous or the wicked, it doesn't matter. The point is, that there is an appointed time which God has placed on His prophetic calendar for the judgment of the dead. Once again, the word “time” in this text refers to a future event which God has announced before it takes place.
Mark 1:15–At the very beginning of His ministry, Jesus said: “The time [kairos] is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” The time Jesus spoke of here was the conclusion of the 69th week of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9. Once again, the word “time” refers to an event which God has previously incorporated into His prophetic calendar.
I Timothy 6:15–In speaking about the Second Coming of Jesus, the apostle Paul states: “Which in his times [kronos] he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. . .” Once again, a future event in God’s prophetic calendar is described with the word “times”.
Acts 17:26, 30, 31 presents an interesting use of the words kairos and kronos. In fact, they are used interchangeably. Verse 26 tells us that God has “determined the times [kairos] before appointed”.
This is, once again, a clear reference to pre-established prophetic events. In verse 30 Paul affirms that God winked at “the times [kronos] of this ignorance” and in verse 31 he assures us that God has “appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained. . .” Once again the word “times” is used in the context of God’s prophetic calendar of events.
In I Timothy 4:1 the apostle tells us that “in the latter times [kronos] some shall depart from the faith. . .” The latter times here would be parallel to “the time of the end” in the book of Daniel.
Revelation 12:14 (which is clearly parallel to Daniel 7:25) explains that the woman would have to flee to the wilderness for “a time [kairos], and times [kairoi] and half a time [kairos]” Once again, prophetic events on God’s calendar are described with the word “times”.
Revelation 10:6–In this text, Jesus Christ announces that “there should be time [kronos] no longer”. The time referred to in this verse cannot mean the end of human history for at least two reasons:
1) This announcement is made during the period of the sixth trumpet. Jesus does not come to take his kingdom until the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19).
2) After the announcement is made that “time will be no longer”, John is instructed to prophesy again (Revelation 10:11). How could he do this if the world had come to an end?
It is clear that the end of “time” here referred to is not the end of the world, but rather, the end of the prophetic time periods. Once again, the word “time” is employed to describe the events on God’s prophetic calendar. h. Before we conclude this examination of the Biblical meaning of the “times”, it would be well to make just a few remarks about the use of the word “times” in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint, LXX). We will limit our remarks to Daniel 7:25. Significantly, all four uses of the word “times” in this verse are translated with the word kairos, thus creating a direct linguistic link between Revelation 12:14 and Daniel 7:25.

On the basis of our study we can reach the following conclusions:
The “times” are God’s calendar of prophetic events which He has previously appointed and announced. These events are under His control and will be ultimately fulfilled in the time and way which He has previously established.
This must mean that the little horn would attempt to change God’s prophetic calendar in some way. It would present a false prophetic scenario of end-time events. In this sense, it would attempt to do precisely what Nebuchadnezzar had once tried to do in Daniel 3, that is, rewrite the prophetic scenario which God had previously appointed and revealed. The final fulfillment of the story of Daniel 3 is found in Revelation 13.

I will continue this in my next post and show in history how the hermeneutical methods of interpretation have changed, and who brought those changes about.
 
The Changing of the Times: An Historical Perspective
The Protestant reformers held the almost unanimous view that the Papacy was the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy. They shared several theological concepts:
1) The fourth beast of Daniel 7 is imperial Rome.
2) The “restrainer” of II Thessalonians 2 is the Roman Empire.
3) The Antichrist is not an individual, but rather a succession of popes who, taken together, constitute an apostate religious system.
4) The time periods in symbolic prophecy are to be understood figuratively, not literally.
5) The “temple” in which the Antichrist sits is not the literal Jerusalem temple, but rather, the Christian Church.
6) The word “Antichrist” does not denote a blasphemous
individual who openly denies and defies God, but rather, one who opposes Christ by posing as the vicar of Christ. (A replacement for, or instead of, Christ)
7) Though not unanimous, most Protestant reformers believed that the little horn of Daniel 7 represents the Roman Catholic Papal system.
When we think of the Protestant Reformation, expressions such as sola scriptura (Scripture alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone) come to mind. However, all these “solas” grew out of a realization that the Roman Catholic system was the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy.
As I mentioned in my first post, the Protestant reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Medo-Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the Barbarians carved up the Empire. They also knew that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time of the little horn.
Like I said previously, the historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. Their correct understanding of Bible prophecy ( and the manner such understanding was to be carried out) gave them the unmistakable mandate to change the entire topographical nature of Christendom by establishing what we now call 'the reformation'.

Bear in mind that those who pointed the finger at the Papacy as the great Antichrist were highly educated individuals. They could not be accused of being ignorant and unlearned. Many reached their own conclusions independently of others. Their expositions were saturated with quotations from Daniel 7 (the little horn), Revelation 13 (the beast), Revelation 17 (the harlot), II Thessalonians 2 (the Man of Sin), and Matthew 24 (the abomination of desolation). And their testimony was unanimous and covered the entire Continent of Europe!!
The Papacy knew it could triumph only by turning away the incriminating finger of Bible prophecy. But, how could it do this when the evidence was so clear and overwhelming? The Papacy saw that in order to be successful, it must change the method Protestants had used to interpret prophecy. They had to 'seek to change the times...." Only by obliterating the method of historicism could the Papacy deflect the accusing finger!! And the Papacy laid out a carefully devised plan to do just
this!! Which brings us to the council of Trent.

The avowed purpose of the Council of Trent was to arrest the growing Protestant Reformation. The council lasted from 1545 until 1563 (the longest church council in the history of the Roman Catholic Church). No major decisions were reached with respect to Bible prophecy but the Papacy did reaffirm categorically the dogmas of the Church and pronounced an anathema upon anyone who taught otherwise.
Just eleven years before the Council of Trent, St. Ignatius of Loyola founded the Jesuit Order (in 1534). Besides providing the Papacy with a formidable secret police force, the Jesuits also trained an elite of theological scholars whose avowed purpose was to overthrow Protestantism. In fact, in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, there is a statue of Loyola trampling Protestants underfoot!!
Loyola’s Jesuit Order would eventually spawn two able scholars whose views would not only arrest the growth of Protestantism but actually conquer it!! To this story we must now turn. Let’s begin with Luis de Alcazar, the preterist.
The Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus (born in the year 37 A. D.), believed that the little horn of Daniel 8 (perhaps also the little horn of Daniel 7, though we are not sure) was Antiochus Epiphanes, a Seleucid ruler who governed from 174 till 163 B. C. In this, Josephus shared the view of the LXX and many other Jewish scholars of his day.
In the second century A. D., an enemy of Christianity whose name was Porphiry, corresponded with Tertullian, one of the early church fathers, trying to persuade him that the little horn was Antiochus Epiphanes.
Luis de Alcazar, Jesuit from Seville, Spain, picked up on the idea of Josephus and the LXX. From 1569 onward he worked on counteracting the Protestant view of the prophecies. He wrote a 900-page commentary on the book of Revelation, titled: Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi [Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse]. The book was published posthumously in 1614. (I haven't read it in case you are wondering... :) )
The main thrust of Alcazar’s book was to relegate the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to the distant past. This system of prophetic interpretation became known as preterism. According to Alcazar, the entire book of Revelation was fulfilled in the first six centuries of the Christian Era. For him, Nero was the predicted Antichrist. By relegating the fulfillment of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to the distant past, Alcazar argued that they could not apply to the Papacy in the 16th century.
If Alcazar’s view was true, then the preaching of the Protestants was gravely wrong. Alcazar established a rival method of interpreting prophecy which removed the incriminating finger from the Papacy and pointed it at Antiochus and Nero!!
Tragically, Protestants soon picked up Alcazar’s deviant theory. It was first adopted by Hugo Grotius of Holland in his Annotationes of 1644. Many other Protestant scholars would follow suit. Noteworthy is the German rationalist J. G. Eichhorn (1752-1827), who had the audacity of republishing Alcazar’s preterist interpretation. Many others followed his lead.
What made the preterist method so attractive to the German rationalists was that it seemed to eliminate the predictive element from the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. Remarkably, preterism was introduced into the United States for the first time by Moses Stuart in 1842. Thus, while William Miller and his fellow preachers were proclaiming a message based on the method of historicism, Satan was working to introduce the rival method of preterism.
Preterism is still the prophetic method of choice in the Roman Catholic Church. It is also the favorite menu for liberal Protestant scholars who use the historical-critical method to do away with the supernatural predictive element of Bible prophecy. The preterist hermeneutic involves a change of God’s times, that is, it creates its own prophetic scenario and tries to change our understanding about the manner in which prophecy was and will be fulfilled (remember what Nebuchadnezzar attempted to do in Daniel 3?). And liberal Protestants, by adopting the preterist method from Roman Catholicism, have become the False Prophet of Roman Catholicism. By reflecting the prophetic views of the Papacy, they have become, hermeneutically speaking, an image of the beast.
Is this perhaps the reason why liberal Protestants are becoming practically indistinguishable from Roman Catholicism? Could this be the reason why liberal Protestants are reaching across the abyss to clasp the hand of Catholicism? Having cast aside the compass of a proper prophetic hermeneutic, liberal Protestants cannot but wander in a maze of uncertainty and confusion.

I will continue this when I can (work calls) and we will deal with futurism, and how that developed.

God bless.
 
Satan’s Prime Target and focus….Israel? Or the Church??

Both are targets but "prime target" is Israel. proof is found in revelation chapter 12.
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


before verse 17 its speaking of Israel. in verse 17 it speaks of christians. we know this because "the woman" in refrence here has a crown with 12 stars on her head. these are the twelve tribes of Israel.

edit, I believe in verse 15 the flood is referring to an army that the enemy "spews out"
 
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First, the following is a rather long article, but please be patient and give it your most serious and prayerful consideration.Your eternal destiny, and those of your families, may well depend on how you respond to the following. This said however, I am brakelite. I cannot change anyone's beliefs, let alone heart, such a miracle I leave in God's hands. All I ask is that you read this as you would when you 'read' a brakelite on the highway. Pause, consider your present course and speed, consider your options, and act accordingly. I cannot ask more.

The modern controversy that exists between the various hermeneutical methods of prophetic interpretation, those being preterist, historicist, and futurist, goes deeper than simply being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ regards understanding prophecy. What we teach has far greater impact than we can possibly know. The Holy Spirit I believe has just revealed to me something that the futurist hermeneutic demands, something that distorts and confuses the truth of the war that is currently raging between the powers of darkness and Christ. This war is a fact of life for all who believe and all who reject Christ as Savior. We believers are intimately engaged in this war. through prayer, through the sharing of the gospel, we are not only at the front lines, but are also the ultimate prize to be claimed by the eventual victor, who we know of course to be Jesus.

....

There's errors in sections of your post...

The early Church fathers like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, both around the 2nd century A.D., saw the Daniel and Revelation prophecies about a coming Antichrist as being fulfilled in the future. The theological doctrine of men called Futurism came later in the 16th century by the Jesuit Ribera to counter the Protestant movement (which you partially covered).

By that much of what those early Church fathers held has been wrongly included in the later category of Futurism, simply because they held those prophecies to be in the future. Thus Ribera's later Futurism is often used to attack what the early Church fathers long before had understood and believed per Scripture.

Those early Church fathers held to Scripture about the coming of the Antichrist to Jerusalem to sit in a temple and exalt himself there in place of Jesus Christ. That is exactly how Irenaeus interpreted Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about the "man of sin". Involvement of a temple in Jerusalem (not Rome) was key to their understanding about the Antichrist that is to come in the last days prior to Christ's second coming.

Many of the Reformers did not hold to the same future views of the early Church fathers, and the doctrine of Futurism was officially developed a little later, thus in the Reformer's era there was a declination away from Christian doctrines the early Church fathers held to.

The idea of the Roman empire being divided up into 10 kingdoms with 10 kings after its fall is hype and conjecture. There were more than 10 kingdoms that made up the later European nations (both east and west; more like 17 or 18 including the holy Roman empire). The territories the Pope ruled over were called Papal states and only involved provinces in Italy and its immediate borders. Pope rule of the Papal states began around 754 A.D. and continued to 1870.

I also feel that your post does not actually address the question within the title of this thread, but instead seems to want to try and persuade that the pope is the Antichrist according to doctrines of Historicism and Preterism.
 
Of the little horn of Daniel 7; we read that he would “Think to change times and laws”. (Daniel 7:25)
What, then, is the meaning of the word “times”? An examination of the context will make it crystal clear. Let us go back in our minds to Daniel 2. We all remember the story. God gave the king a dream and when he woke up he couldn’t remember it. So the wise men of Babylon were called in, but they were unable to tell the king the dream or its meaning. Finally, through Daniel, God reminded the king of his dream and provided the interpretation. Even before Daniel described the dream and its meaning, the king was informed: “Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all.”(Daniel 2:37-38)
God then proceeded to tell Nebuchadnezzar how history would unfold. Babylon would be succeeded by Medo-Persia, Medo- Persia would be followed by Greece, Greece would be supplanted by Rome, Rome would be divided into ten kingdoms and then God would set up His everlasting and indestructible kingdom. In short, God was telling Nebuchadnezzar: “Human history is under my control. I enthrone rulers and I depose them. I am able to predict precisely how historical events will unfold, and history will develop precisely as I have pre-established.” This is what Daniel meant when he said that God “changes the times and the seasons, removes kings and sets up kings”. It is God who reveals and determines the calendar of prophetic events!! Daniel 3 informs us that Nebuchadnezzar was unhappy with God’s prophetic scenario, so he built an image like the one he had seen in his dream but this one was made of gold from head to foot.
Most Bible scholars have totally missed the main point of Nebuchadnezzar’s rebellious act. The central issue is not worship or even obedience. The critical issue is, who controls human history. Will history unfold as God has announced or will history develop in harmony with the king’s scenario? The king is saying, in effect: “Daniel’s God has said that history will be composed of several kingdoms. But I say that my kingdom will last forever. And woe to him who dares question my perspective!!”
In short, Nebuchadnezzar thought he could change the times and seasons which God had already determined and announced. Don’t miss the point: IT WAS GOD’S CALENDAR OF PROPHETIC EVENTS WHICH NEBUCHADNEZZAR THOUGHT HE COULD CHANGE!!
But the story does not end here. There were three young men who refused to recognize the king’s changed calendar of prophetic events. We all know how the story ends. The three young men were delivered. God changed the king’s program. The significant verse is in Daniel 3:28 where the king states: “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word. . .” In the end, not only was Nebuchadnezzar unable to change God’s prophetic scenario, but God actually interrupted and changed the kings plans.

Naturally for one on the Historicist doctrine of men they would want to leave out the final 5th beast kingdom that Dan.2 hints to...

Dan 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(KJV)

This following Dan.2 Scripture is one of the keys to know a 5th beast kingdom is being described for the very end of days when Jesus returns to destroy it...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

The image of the beast Neb saw in his dream had 5 parts, not 4. The legs of iron represented the pagan Roman empire of history which is no more. The feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay represents the final beast kingdom over all the earth for the last days. It will cover all nations upon the earth simply because that Dan.2:34-35 Scripture reveals the "stone" (Christ) will come to smite it upon its feet, and all... of the 5 pieces, the head of gold, the breast and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of brass, the legs of iron, and the feet of clay mixed with iron, will come tumbling down 'together'.

For all... of those 5 pieces to come down together when the "stone" smites it upon its feet as written there, it has to mean all of the 5 pieces must be established and in power along with that final beast kingdom of the feet of iron mixed with clay. Thus Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Roman, and then something elsewhere, will all be raised back to power underneath the final 5th beast kingdom of ten toes. This gives more sense to Christ's explanation in Rev.17 about that final beast having ten kings reigning with a beast king over them, upon seven mountains put for seven regions covering the whole earth.

Hence, the "one world government" system being setup over all nations on the earth today.

Another important point to that Dan.2 prophecy is how the establishing of a beast like that 5th one of feet made up of part iron and clay, to include all the previous beasts, has never, ever, been established upon this earth yet in man's history.
 
As for who is Satan attacking today, Israel or The Church, I agree with others here that it is both.

But I do not separate God's Israel from Christ's Church, for the believing remnant of the seed of Israel that became the early foundation of Christ's Church cannot be separated from Israel. God's Israel per His Salvation only involves those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ. It's just that God promised certain things to His servant David and for Jerusalem's sake that involves the unbelieving remnants of Israel like the majority of the "house of Judah" today, both in the middleast nation of Israel and those of them scattered in the nations. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in then the blindness God put upon many of the Jews against The Gospel will then be removed.
 
No Hype ... in post #10 you stated in part:

"I also feel that your post (Brakelite) does not actually address the question within the title of this thread, but instead seems to want to try and persuade that the Pope is the Antichrist according to doctrines of Historicism and Preterism."

I am unsure as to why you would include "Preterism" in your statement?

It is my personal understanding that the pope is not "the" Antichrist, nor the first beast, but rather the second beast or False Prophet. As an aside, the word "vatic" means "prophet" or "prophecy".

The papal throne being located within Vatican (vatic) City.
 
No Hype ... in post #10 you stated in part:

"I also feel that your post (Brakelite) does not actually address the question within the title of this thread, but instead seems to want to try and persuade that the Pope is the Antichrist according to doctrines of Historicism and Preterism."

I am unsure as to why you would include "Preterism" in your statement?

It is my personal understanding that the pope is not "the" Antichrist, nor the first beast, but rather the second beast or False Prophet. As an aside, the word "vatic" means "prophet" or "prophecy".

The papal throne being located within Vatican (vatic) City.

I don't agree the pope is the coming Antichrist or the "another beast" of Rev.13:11, and I'm not Catholic.

I don't see the pope as different from any of the other many false prophets in the world today, he's just got a bigger following because of tradition.

The "another beast" of Rev.13:11, i.e., the 2nd beast, is an entity, an individual, and I believe that slot is reserved for Satan himself in the last days. The previous Rev.12 chapter included the warning of his being cast down to the earth in the last days with his angels, and woe to those on earth because of it. I believe that event is what will begin the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus warned us of. And the subject of the first part of Rev.13 in regards to the 1st beast involves the one who heads it, the dragon, which is another title for Satan in Rev.12. That's why that "another beast" speaks "as a dragon", because he is the dragon (devil). The symbolic reference there also about his having two horns like a lamb is a pointer to Christ, and it will be Satan himself that will try to come in place of Christ and exalt himself as God in Jerusalem, as written by Apostle Paul (2 Thess.2:3-4, 2 Cor.11:4).
 
No Hype ... I believe you did not address my question regarding what you said about the doctrines of Historicism and Preterism.

Do you still believe that Historicism AND Preterism believe the pope to be the Antichrist?
 
Both are targets but "prime target" is Israel. proof is found in revelation chapter 12.
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.


before verse 17 its speaking of Israel. in verse 17 it speaks of christians. we know this because "the woman" in refrence here has a crown with 12 stars on her head. these are the twelve tribes of Israel.

edit, I believe in verse 15 the flood is referring to an army that the enemy "spews out"

Eddie B, Hi. To my mind the woman of Rev.12 is not Israel, nor Mary, as some suppose, but she represents God's people throughout all ages. Ever since Eden the promise of a Saviour was the hope of God's people. Here is a brief historicist account of Revel.12.
The beautiful woman of Revelation 12 is revealed in direct contrast with the ***** of Revelation 17,18. As the ***** represents a global church that by her adulterous relationship with the state is accounted an apostate church, so the woman of Revelation 12 through her having given birth to the Saviour and willing to suffer persecution rather than compromise truth, this OT church and NT church is accounted righteous. If you like, you may describe her as being God's people, or even the Jews, both OT and spiritual NT, but either way, I put it to you that she is representative of God's true children, just as the ***** is representative of apostasy.

Throughout time God's people had longed for their Deliverer. They looked for their Messiah, and every Jewish woman had hopes that she might be the one that would bring Him forth. And yes, the One who would rule all nations with the rod of iron is Jesus.

After giving birth, the church was persecuted and had to escape into the wilderness. Persecuted first by the Jews, then by pagan Rome, and finally by papal Rome, she survived through faith and cleaving to the truth. Just before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70ad, Christians settled in the cities of Syria and Antioch became the first real centre of evangelical Christianity. From there missionary endeavours spread the gospel far and wide. However, opposition and persecution attended their efforts, and history reveals that there has never been a time when true fully consecrated sons and daughters of God who were willing to surrender their lives to their Saviour and 'go into all nations teaching whatsoever He commanded them" did so without exciting the wrath of Satan.

That which was 'spewed 'from the mouth are the false doctrines of the false church, Babylon.
 
There's errors in sections of your post...

The early Church fathers like Irenaeus and Hippolytus, both around the 2nd century A.D., saw the Daniel and Revelation prophecies about a coming Antichrist as being fulfilled in the future. The theological doctrine of men called Futurism came later in the 16th century by the Jesuit Ribera to counter the Protestant movement (which you partially covered).

By that much of what those early Church fathers held has been wrongly included in the later category of Futurism, simply because they held those prophecies to be in the future. Thus Ribera's later Futurism is often used to attack what the early Church fathers long before had understood and believed per Scripture.

Those early Church fathers held to Scripture about the coming of the Antichrist to Jerusalem to sit in a temple and exalt himself there in place of Jesus Christ. That is exactly how Irenaeus interpreted Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 about the "man of sin". Involvement of a temple in Jerusalem (not Rome) was key to their understanding about the Antichrist that is to come in the last days prior to Christ's second coming.

Many of the Reformers did not hold to the same future views of the early Church fathers, and the doctrine of Futurism was officially developed a little later, thus in the Reformer's era there was a declination away from Christian doctrines the early Church fathers held to.

The idea of the Roman empire being divided up into 10 kingdoms with 10 kings after its fall is hype and conjecture. There were more than 10 kingdoms that made up the later European nations (both east and west; more like 17 or 18 including the holy Roman empire). The territories the Pope ruled over were called Papal states and only involved provinces in Italy and its immediate borders. Pope rule of the Papal states began around 754 A.D. and continued to 1870.

I also feel that your post does not actually address the question within the title of this thread, but instead seems to want to try and persuade that the pope is the Antichrist according to doctrines of Historicism and Preterism.
Hi. I agree with much of what you have said. Rather than errors in my thinking, your thoughts merely reflect a number of points which I felt weren't pertinent to our discussion...however, I will now add my thoughts on that subject and you will recognize some similarities between our ideas. The following I copied and pasted from a previous thread on a similar topic. (My original post).

2 Thess 2:1
¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.....

Authors note: this bolded portion is commonly referred to as “the restrainer”, that is, he who with-holds the development, establishment, or appearing of the Antichrist. The modern understanding of these verses, particularly in the futurist paradigm, is that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. The following evidence however should dispel such thoughts, and reveal the true facts


.....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Nearly all commentators are unanimous that the 'restariner', so called, was not named by Paul because it was too dangerous. He had already spoken in person to the Thessalonian church on the matter, so they knew who Paul was writing about...the very power that if it had read that letter, would take no little umbrage to being informed that they would soon be removed from power and another rise up in their stead. The 'restrainer' of course being pagan Rome.

Not a few of the early church fathers wrote on this subject, and all agreed that Rome was the one eluded to in Paul's letter. Let me quote one or three.


Tertullian (160-240)
“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.”

“On the Resurrection of the Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563



There is some debate as to whether the ‘falling away’ referred to here is in reference to the empire, or the church. Some say one, some the other, while some would contend that it can apply equally to both. This author contends that the falling away [spoken of by Paul in 2 Thess 2:3] is in reference to the church. The falling away transpired when she aspired to political power at the expense of spiritual, thus committing spiritual adultery. (see Revelation 17:2; James 4:4) Either way, Tertullian was certain in his belief that the restrainer was the Roman Empire. That it was Rome itself that inhibited in some way the rise of the antichrist. This was generally accepted throughout the church at that time, and it was common for the church to pray to God that He would keep the Roman power intact in order to keep the antichrist from coming to power in their time. Interesting also is Tertullian’s reference to the ten kingdoms that would result from the break up of Rome. This is a direct reference to Daniel 7 and the ten horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome. The Antichrist, according to Bible scholars, was the 11th horn. Tertullian was using the historicist method of prophetic interpretation, that method which viewed prophecy as an historical unfolding throughout history from the time the prophecy was first given, and culminating at the second coming. This is significant when understanding Paul’s letter, because Paul is clear that the Antichrist would appear as soon as Rome moves aside, and that very same Antichrist would still be there to be judged at the second coming. Not futurist, not preterist, but a historicist approach, just like Tertullian.)


Elsewhere, Tertullian states:

“The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”
(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

Lactanctius, in the early 4th century wrote:
“The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).


Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386).

But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman empire have been fulfilled and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; but after those, an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magic craft will seize upon the Roman power, and of the kings who reigned before him, "three he shall humble" and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself."
(Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).


Much could be said about this quote; he also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and the horns of Daniel 7 arise, the antichrist would be revealed

Ambrose (died 398)
“After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.”

(Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……

Chrysostum (died 407)
“When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”
Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, ” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389
[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..

.....and finally Jerome (died 420)
“He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”
(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236

Jerome's testimony is interesting, because from his perspective, he had seen and witnessed the fall of Rome, but was yet to see the rise of Antichrist. The reason is that history had not yet revealed who the Antichrist actually was, despite the early beginnings of the church of Rome at that time. The 3 nations had yet to be vanquished: It was this event that would definitively prove the Antichrist's identity.

I think it would be a good time to quote a Catholic source, the eminent historian Cardinal Manning.


“Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire.
The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.”
(Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862).

Manning has clearly given an excellent summary of history which directly correlates with the prophecies of Daniel and Paul. While attributing the fall of Rome to God and the rise of the papacy to Him also, Manning seems oblivious to the fact that he is revealing the perfect fulfilment of the prophecy of Paul and Daniel. That when Rome fell, the ten nations arose, three were subdued, and the ultimate victor was the papacy! It was the papacy itself that the empire of Rome was restraining. It was the papacy that arose after the establishment of the ten horns. It was the papacy that had a major role in the subjugation of the 3 horns because being Arian in belief they were directly opposed to the rule of the pontiffs. It will be the papacy that will still be here at the second coming, when Paul says she will be destroyed by the “brightness of His coming”. Therefore it is the papacy which perfectly fulfils the criteria demanded of it in order to be identified as the Antichrist. And that my friends are precisely the reasons all non-Roman Bible commentators from the time of the 6th century on were almost unanimous in identifying the papacy as the man of sin. The power who entered the church (the temple of God) and by claiming the power to forgive sin, and shut out of heaven whom he will, and claiming universal spiritual and temporal authority over all the earth, thus claiming the prerogatives of God, “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”
 
Naturally for one on the Historicist doctrine of men they would want to leave out the final 5th beast kingdom that Dan.2 hints to...
Au contraire my friend. It is only the historicist perspective that allows one to recognize the true nature of that 5th entity.
Dan 2:40-44
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
(KJV)

This following Dan.2 Scripture is one of the keys to know a 5th beast kingdom is being described for the very end of days when Jesus returns to destroy it...
The prophecy 'no hype' does certainly say that the fifth entity will be destroyed by the second coming, but it doesn't say that it came to being only in those last days. It grew directly out of pagan Rome. There is no break between the two powers. The clay/iron mix follows directly on from the iron of pagan Rome. That clay/iron mix is the perfect metaphor for the Roman church. Inheriting the strength of pagan Rome (the seat of authority...see Revelation 13:2; that composite beast had various parts from all 4 empires...pagan Rome, Greece, Meda-Persia, Babylon. It is this beast, inheriting variuous characteristics from its predecessors, that received from the dragon, his power, his seat, and his authority. Papal Rome is the only entity which grew out of pagan Rome and meets those criteria.
Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

The image of the beast Neb saw in his dream had 5 parts, not 4. The legs of iron represented the pagan Roman empire of history which is no more. The feet of ten toes of part iron mixed with clay represents the final beast kingdom over all the earth for the last days. It will cover all nations upon the earth simply because that Dan.2:34-35 Scripture reveals the "stone" (Christ) will come to smite it upon its feet, and all... of the 5 pieces, the head of gold, the breast and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of brass, the legs of iron, and the feet of clay mixed with iron, will come tumbling down 'together'.

For all... of those 5 pieces to come down together when the "stone" smites it upon its feet as written there, it has to mean all of the 5 pieces must be established and in power along with that final beast kingdom of the feet of iron mixed with clay. Thus Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Roman, and then something elsewhere, will all be raised back to power underneath the final 5th beast kingdom of ten toes. This gives more sense to Christ's explanation in Rev.17 about that final beast having ten kings reigning with a beast king over them, upon seven mountains put for seven regions covering the whole earth.

Hence, the "one world government" system being setup over all nations on the earth today.

Another important point to that Dan.2 prophecy is how the establishing of a beast like that 5th one of feet made up of part iron and clay, to include all the previous beasts, has never, ever, been established upon this earth yet in man's history.
No Hype, I agree with much of the above.
The iron was Rome and the Roman influence continued into the feet and toes in the form of Roman Catholicism.
v 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Some European kingdoms are strong, some weak.
v 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry [from a word meaning “damp “or “sticky”] clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men…

The four metals had represented earthly governments – State powers. The clay represents a new distinct element – the religious or Church power.
UNION OF CHURCH & STATE
Evidently “they” who mingle with the seed of men are not the seed of men. They must therefore be the “seed,” or children, of God. Here then is foretold the mingling, or attempted union, of the church with the world. Such a union is as unnatural as attempting to mix iron & clay, and is destined for dissolution.
Ezra 9:2 “… the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.”


…but they shall not cleave one to another.


Royal and common marriages among the nations of Europe have also failed to bring about unity.
A partial unity was brought about by the uniting of the Roman Catholic Church (the papacy) and some of the European nations during the Dark Ages, but this Religious-Political system – The Holy Roman Empire – did not last. With the advent of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, protesting the errors & abuses of misdirected Catholicism, Europe began to withdraw their support from the Vatican. In France, papal hypocrisy and abuses led to a rejection of all religion, giving rise to the Atheism of the French Revolution.
“All the reigning princes in Europe are closely related.” The Royal Relatives of Europe, World’s Work, Oct. 1914
…even as iron is not mixed with clay.
The Roman Empire has been described as history’s Humpty Dumpty. After Rome’s downfall in 476 AD “all the king’s horses and all the king’s men (the warriors and statesmen of fifteen centuries have failed) “couldn’t put Humpty together again.”
Six notable rulers who have tried in vain to defy the prophecy & reunite Europe were:
1. Charlemagne (of the Franks) 8th century
2. Charles V (of Spain) 16th century
3. Louis XIV (of France) 18th century
4. Napoleon (of France) 19th century
5. Kaiser Wilhelm (Germany) 20th century
6. Adolf Hitler (Germany) 20th century
The image of chapter 2 exactly parallels the vision of the four beasts in chapter 7. The fourth beast of chapter 7 represents the same kingdom as the iron legs of chapter 2. The ten horns of the beast correspond to the divided feet and toes of the image. These horns are said to be ten kings which should arise; and they are just as much independent kingdoms as are the beasts themselves, for the beasts are spoken of in precisely the same manner; namely, as “four kings which shall arise.” Dan 7:17. The ten horns do not denote a line of successive kings, but kingdoms which exist contemporaneously; for three of them were plucked up by the little horn. The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which Rome was divided, and these horns correspond to the divided feet and toes of Dan 2.

v 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed…

Daniel uses the words “king” and “kingdom” interchangeably.
CHRIST’S KINGDOM SET UP
At the time this kingdom is set up, there will be a plurality of kings existing contemporaneously. These kingdoms cannot refer to the four preceding kingdoms; for it would be absurd to use such language in reference to a line of successive kings, since it would be in the days of the last king only, not in the days of any of the preceding, that the kingdom of God would be set up.
The Kingdom of God was set up after the stone hit the image on the feet. The stone cannot refer to Christ’s first advent, because when Christ came Rome was one united superpower, whereas the stone hit the image upon the feet AFTER Rome had divided into the feet and toes of iron and clay (the 10 nations of Europe AD476.

Christ is the stone which will pulverize the image. Speaking of Himself, Christ said, “And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Matt 21:44

The reigns of the various kingdoms get longer and longer:
Babylon605 – 539

Medo-Persia539 – 331

Greece331 – 169
Rome (pagan & papal)169 – the Second Coming
Christ’s Kingdom Second Coming to eternity!
…and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms…

At Christ’s coming the nations are not to be converted, but destroyed (Rev 19:11-21). Those “filthy” when Jesus comes are forever lost. (Rev 22:11-12)

…and it shall stand for ever.

v 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone [compare with Matt 21:44] was cut out of the mountain without hands…

“Without hands” means by Divine power. See Heb 9:11, 24; 2 Cor 5:1; Col 2:11.
Christ’s kingdom is not to be brought in by human devising. Thus all efforts to establish Christ’s kingdom by political or military means are misdirected.
Mountains represent kingdoms (see Dan 2:35). The stone is Christ. The mountain from which he was cut is the great universal kingdom of God.

…and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold…

God sees past kingdoms as still present:
Though the earlier nations represented by the metallic sections had their dominions taken away, yet in a certain sense they live on and will be fully destroyed when the stone strikes.
Hence we see the composite beast of Revelation 13.

 
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Manning has clearly given an excellent summary of history which directly correlates with the prophecies of Daniel and Paul. While attributing the fall of Rome to God and the rise of the papacy to Him also, Manning seems oblivious to the fact that he is revealing the perfect fulfilment of the prophecy of Paul and Daniel. That when Rome fell, the ten nations arose, three were subdued, and the ultimate victor was the papacy! It was the papacy itself that the empire of Rome was restraining. It was the papacy that arose after the establishment of the ten horns. It was the papacy that had a major role in the subjugation of the 3 horns because being Arian in belief they were directly opposed to the rule of the pontiffs. It will be the papacy that will still be here at the second coming, when Paul says she will be destroyed by the “brightness of His coming”. Therefore it is the papacy which perfectly fulfils the criteria demanded of it in order to be identified as the Antichrist. And that my friends are precisely the reasons all non-Roman Bible commentators from the time of the 6th century on were almost unanimous in identifying the papacy as the man of sin. The power who entered the church (the temple of God) and by claiming the power to forgive sin, and shut out of heaven whom he will, and claiming universal spiritual and temporal authority over all the earth, thus claiming the prerogatives of God, “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

Clearly 'some' of the early Church fathers saw the coming Antichrist for the end and the ten horned kingdom of Revelation as being an institution after the "legs of iron" (pagan Roman empire) had ended. That is much of what they are saying, but they are not... referring to a "bishop of bishops" because the majority of those early Church fathers did not live when the office of pope as we know it began to exist in Rome. So any attempted draw of a link to the Roman Catholic Church is just hype and nothing more. I actually believe that hype originates with the later movements of the Reformers, and not the early Church fathers.

Based on some of those quotes from the early Church fathers it should be clearly seen how they understood the beast of "legs of iron" (pagan Roman empire) having to come to an end in preparation for the next and last beast kingdom they saw in the future. One will also discover in some of their writings how they understood the Antichrist would appear in Jerusalem, not Rome (i.e., Irenaeus).
 
Au contraire my friend. It is only the historicist perspective that allows one to recognize the true nature of that 5th entity.

I know of no Scriptural evidence to support that statement above. The Historicist perspective is a doctrine of men. And just because God's Word covers prophetic timelines of events past, that does not automatically mean it's all what men's doctrines of Historicism is about. Historicism began mostly with the Reformers, especially with Martin Luther's concept that the pope was Antichrist, which later became a standard dogma of most of the Protestant Reformers.


The prophecy 'no hype' does certainly say that the fifth entity will be destroyed by the second coming, but it doesn't say that it came to being only in those last days. It grew directly out of pagan Rome. There is no break between the two powers.

That is hype; there's no evidence that the pagan Roman empire continued as the Roman Catholic Church anymore than one can say pagans that converted to Christ made His Church become a pagan church. In reality, before Christ's first coming the majority of the peoples and nations of Europe were following paganism. To imply the Roman Church continued in that is to imply The Gospel of Jesus Christ did not really take hold with the peoples who founded the western Christian nations after the passion of Christ. It is in essence like saying the history of The Gospel failed in old Europe. It did not.


The clay/iron mix follows directly on from the iron of pagan Rome.

That statement is conjecture also, because per the Dan.2 prophecies of the "abomination of desolation" that is to take place in Jerusalem involving a physical temple, that is a huge part of the final beast's working in the era of Christ's return, and linked to the timing of that final 5th beast of Daniel and Revelation. When we look at those involved today in helping to fulfill that, it is not the Roman Catholic Church, but the orthodox unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem that are doing that. Daniel is told the prophecy is sealed up until the end, which points to the generation that will see Christ's second coming. The Roman Church has not been instrumental in accomplishing any of those prophecies in Daniel, but the orthodox unbelieving Jews have.

No Hype, I agree with much of the above.
The iron was Rome and the Roman influence continued into the feet and toes in the form of Roman Catholicism.
v 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Like I said, that's just conjecture, and it's mainly based on old traditions of the Protestant Reformers of the 15th-16th centuries forward who thought the pope was the Antichrist because of the religious wars and their persecutions upon the Protestant Churches.

Since the rest of your post is based on that concept it is also conjecture based on the doctrines of men called Historicism.
 
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