Knowing the answer to that shouldn't be that difficult brother, not if we stay in God's Word as written. See Gen.37 about Joseph's two dreams concerning his eleven brethren and his mother and father.
I appreciate the parallels but there is a subtle but essential difference between interpretations; the woman I know in Catholic circles is Mary...very litertalist. In most Protestant or evangelical belief the woman is the nation of Israel. I believe somewhat differently. I believe the woman represents God's people throughout all ages. From Eden to the second coming. Revelation 12 actually covers that entire time-frame. Remember, I give this very brief commentary from an historicist perspective...that is a continuing historical narrative.
Vs. 1-2
Throughout the Bible a pure “woman” is a symbol of God’s true church while a harlot represents a corrupt church. Hosea 1:2; Ezekiel 16; 2 Corinthians 11:2.
She is said to be “clothed with the sun,” the glory of the gospel of Christ, and have “the moon under her feet,” the reflected glory of Christ as foreshadowed in the Old Testament sanctuary services and rituals. John 8:12; Colossians 2:11-17. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the twelve apostles. The woman who gives birth to Messiah represents the true church through its entire history—from Adam and the Jewish nation to the Christian Church.
Vs 3-6
The “great red dragon” is identified in verse 9 as Satan. However, he routinely uses others to persecute, deceive and destroy. Genesis 3:1-13. The “seven heads of ten horns and seven crowns” represents the nations or governments which Satan has used to persecute God’s people. See also Daniel 7:7; Revelation 13:1-5; 17:3, 7-12. In verse 4 we see an attempt to destroy Jesus at His birth, and can identify Pagan Rome in the person of King Herod as the agency Satan is working through. Matthew 2:13-18. In verse 6 the dragon forces the woman to flee into the wilderness for 1,260 years, the time when Papal Rome is in power persecuting God’s faithful church. Even though he uses others as his agents, the dragon is Satan.
The dragon casts a “third part of the stars of heaven…to the earth.” This represents the angels who joined Lucifer in his rebellion, and were cast out of Heaven with him. Revelation 12:7-9.
To “rule all nations with a rod of iron” references Psalm 2:9. This means that Christ will be victorious over His enemies. After His resurrection He was “caught up unto God.”
Vs 7-9
There is a great deal of opinion concerning this war, and when it took/takes place. I am of the school that believes it took place in the distant past, before creation, or not long after. By the time Adam and Eve were tempted, Satan was on the earth, but had no dominion. Adam's surrender gave the devil dominion, thus he was able lawfully to offer it to Christ at the temptation in the wilderness.
Here we are brought back in time to the very beginning of the current ongoing war between Christ and Satan when Lucifer, the foremost angel in Heaven, fostered rebellion and was expelled. Now he fights against Christ by attacking His people, His truth and His character. 1 Peter 5:8.
It is said that Satan “deceiveth the whole world.” Satan has effectively substituted truth with lies on many points including: the character of God, creation, His law, the Sabbath, the state of the dead and the way of salvation, to name just a few. Huge numbers of people, including many Christians, have been deceived into believing and supporting these lies. The only way to keep from being deceived is to have a firm grounding in Bible truth and a solid relationship with Jesus. The popularity and widespread acceptance of a doctrine does not mean that it is true.
Vs 10-12
The event of the death, resurrection, and enthronement of Jesus constitutes the decisive battle of the great controversy. It was at the cross that Satan was defeated (John 12:31-32; Luke 10:17-19). The proclamation goes forth: “Now the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down.” Satan is the “accuser of the brethren.” Zechariah 3:1. He presents to us and to God every sin, mistake and character flaw as a reason that we should belong to him as his rightful prey, but “the blood of the lamb” “cleanseth us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7. His “blood,” His strength and righteousness and sacrifice, joined to the “word of their testimony,” is powerful to overcome Satan. Our personal knowledge and love of Jesus binds us to Christ and His saving power. Our advocate says to Satan, “The Lord rebuke thee. Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” Zechariah 3:2.
Christ’s faithful people “loved not their lives unto the death.” They would rather die than dishonor Him. They love Jesus more than the trivial pleasures to be gleaned from a few decades of mortal existence. With Jesus as their Shepherd they do not fear the devil’s “great wrath.”
Vs 13-17
Here is where those who are intent on events in Israel and the Middle East go astray. These verses state clearly where Satan's focus lies....with the church. After Calvary Satan did not seek his vengeance against the nation of Israel, they were his allies, not his enemy. The church was his target, and Satan continued to use Israel and her apostate rulers to persecute Christ's followers. By the time pagan Rome sacked and destroyed Jerusalem and its temple, the Christians had gone. This event was not inspired of the devil to destroy God's people: they had already gone to such places as Antioch in response to Jewish persecutions. After the church dispersed throughout the world taking the gospel with them, persecution continued to follow them wherever they went. In Rome occupied territories, pagan Rome killed many. In the east, Zoroastrianism became a bitter enemy.
The church was forced to flee to the uninhabited “wilderness: for “a time, and times, and a half a time,” the 1,260 year period of Papal domination. Millions of Christians were martyred during this time because they chose to obey the Bible instead of the decrees of Popes and church councils. The mountains of Europe and the wilds of Africa and Asia became their refuge, and the new land of America seemed divinely ordained as a stronghold of religious freedom.
Paul didn't come outright and say it in 2 Thess.2, but that man of sin, son of perdition, is the devil himself, coming to earth in the last days to do that. Those who have yet to understand God's Word about Satan's original rebellion of old will miss that. The very first sin began with Satan in coveting God's Throne when God created him as an anointed cherub to guard His Throne, and that 2 Thess.2:2-3 event is directly related to it.
While I agree that Satan's ambitions extended even to God's throne, and that he also is set to deceive the world by impersonating Christ, I do not agree that 2 Thess. 2:3,4 is a reference to Satan, but to the Antichrist, which/who is a separate entity.
Isa 14:12-14 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will also sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the Most High.
Here we have a revelation into the heart and mind of Satan. We are here given insight into his most cherished ambition, to be like God, therefore to receive the worship, adoration and fidelity of his subjects. If anyone has doubt as to whether Satan still cherishes this particular ambition, one need look no further than the temptation of Christ in order to confirm this. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth and their glory, if only Jesus would fall down and worship him. Imagine, the Creator worshiping His creation!!! Although Satan failed in that particular exercise, he has not failed when it comes to enticing man to worship him. I am not speaking here of those who are involved in the occult, or in Satanic rites. No, no. I am speaking of people who consider themselves Christians, those who sincerely believe and are convinced they are worshiping God. Allow me to explain.
Satan can not enter the church of course and introduce himself and make a polite request that the congregation worship him. He knows that will not work;
we know that will not work; such an attempt would be met with a less than favourable response. Therefore, in order to gain the advantage over those who believe in God, he must use deception. The apostle Paul alluded to this very thing when he wrote:
2 Thess. 2:3-10.
Reading to this point, one might think that Satan has competition. Someone else vying for the adoration of man. But let us read further;…..
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
“Whose coming is after the working of Satan!!?” Not competition, not even Satan himself,
but his own child! Here is Satan’s baby.
Here is that creation of his which enters the church and in his place accepts man’s worship by proclaiming himself God, but it is in fact Satan who receives the ultimate glory.
Satan could not himself enter the church, but he could very easily use someone else to do that for him, and through him, receive the worship he desires. By misrepresenting God, and introducing a counterfeit God and a counterfeit religion to worship that God, Satan has deceived millions. Allow me to make a point regarding deception, using counterfeit money as an example. People are not deceived into believing that it is acceptable in the eyes of the authorities to use counterfeit money. The deception operates by way of blinding the people that it is a counterfeit. It is fake, but they believe it to be real. It is the same with religion. Satan would deceive very few into thinking that it is acceptable to God for man to worship Satan. But he has had resounding success in deceiving many into thinking they are worshiping God, when in fact they are worshiping Satan.
How does this work? Jesus explained it very clearly throughout His ministry, warning us repeatedly of false Christs and false prophets. Important to notice that if there be a false Christ then his followers must be false Christians. The expression ‘antichrist’ means that precisely;
“one who stands in the place of Christ”. Therefore the followers of antichrist must also be professing Christians, the antichrist being the counterfeit of the true Christ, and his followers deceived into believing they are worshiping the true.
Jesus alluded to this very thing here; Matt. 15:9.
But in vain do they worship Me, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men.
Notice here that Jesus was not saying these people were not worshiping, they were just not worshiping
Him!
Most would be also familiar with the following; Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.
Now if Jesus didn’t know them, it would be fairly safe to conclude that they didn’t know Him. They were doing all manner of religious stuff, including one would presume worship, but it certainly wasn’t Jesus they were worshiping,
even though they believed it was, and when they came face to face with Him, called Him Lord!!!!
So who was it they were worshiping? Let us look at Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…
According to this text, we are servants to whoever we obey.
Regardless of our profession, it is in our acts that we define who we worship.
As Jesus said, in vain do they worship Him, when they obey the commandments of men which override the commandments and doctrines of God. And later, as we just saw,
only those who do the will of the Father will be entering the kingdom of heaven. How eternally important is doctrine! How essential it is to understand truth!!! How critical it is that we be absolutely assured that what teachings we follow are based on sound Biblical truth rather than the teachings, interpretations, or traditions of man.
Doctrine is an integral part of worship. Jesus is here telling us that the creator of the doctrine is the object of our worship, regardless of the intent, sincere or otherwise, of the worshiper. It is through false doctrine that Satan has deceived millions into believing they are worshiping God when in fact they are worshiping him. It is through false teaching- doctrines that are the invention of Satan and taught by man, that Satan has established his counterfeit God, and his counterfeit religion of worshiping that god.
The book of Revelation reveals this to us clearly.
The true things of God have Satanic counterparts. There is a false trinity; the dragon, sea-beast (antichrist) and false prophet. This false trinity has a false message (Revel 16:13) – a counterfeit of the true 3 angels messages of Revel. 14:6-12. The false trinity is associated with a false city, Babylon. This city, like the New Jerusalem, has a river, and is called ‘great’. (18:10). The antichrist himself is a counterfeit Christ.
Jesus proclaimed His threefold ministry in Matthew 12:6,41,42. He proclaimed Himself as the ultimate Priest, Prophet, and King, and rightly so. However, there is an entity living upon the earth as we speak who also claims, falsely, these very same prerogatives, and claims them to be his universal right.
- By claiming to be the sole arbiter and interpreter of scripture, by claiming the power to forgive sin, by claiming universal authority in religious matters, (thus subverting Christ’s ministry of High priest);
- by claiming the power to change God’s times and laws,and claiming the sole right to speak upon the earth as God’s representative, and claiming the right to judge who does or does not enter the kingdom of God, (thus subverting role as Prophet),
- by claiming the right and seeking secular authority over all the earth,(thus subverting Christ’s role as King).... the Roman Catholic Church has indeed “opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he as God sits in the temple of God, (the church), showing himself that he is God.”
The messages themselves also have parallels. Both the true and the false are designed to gather people together to their makers; the false to Satan,(Revel. 16:14), the true to Jesus (Revel. 14:7). Both are also designed to go to all mankind (Revel 14:6; 16:14.) It is no coincidence that the true message, that of Revel. 14:6-12, is focused on worshiping God, the Creator of all things. Right throughout the book of Revelation, we are confronted by worship. In particular we see in Rev. 13 several references to the deceptive practices of the antichrist and the false prophet, through whom Satan deceives the whole world, resulting in false worship. In contrast, the true worshipers are described as those who keep God’s commandments. (Revel. 12: 17; 14:12.) To claim as some have recently in this forum, that the Antichrist is against worship is a gross error. See how neatly all this falls in with Jesus declaration that those who enter heaven must be obeying God, doing the will of the Father. Elsewhere Jesus said “If ye love Me, keep My commandments.”
With this in mind, and remembering Romans 6:16, the big question is, and the one we must all ask ourselves if we are to have any assurance of eternal life, is,
whose commandments are they which I am surrendered to? Who am I obeying? Many hold the word of God as the authority in religious matters. Others, a combination of scripture and tradition, and others, the church. Many churches today don’t even teach doctrine any more, as they think because it tends to divide, then they must avoid it. Mega churches have been built on this premise. If they don’t study doctrine however how can they discern the real from the false? Doctrine matters. Our eternal destiny hinges on our correct understanding of Biblical truth. Of course the RCC teaches that they have the inherent right to decide what true doctrine is and what is false, by referring to the traditions handed down from the church fathers. Those traditions however, Sunday sacredness being the prime example, are in direct contradiction to the revealed word of God as shown in scripture. Truth is progressive. It builds on foundations already established, but
nowhere must it contradict what God has previously been pleased to reveal to His people through His word. An example of one surrendering to false teaching and suffering as a result is found in 1 Kings 13:1-34. Believing the lie brought to him by a false prophet did not excuse the unnamed man of God from Judea for his disobedience.
The teachings of churches, ecclesiastical institutions such as seminaries and Bible colleges, or church councils be they great or small, are valid only in as much as they agree with scripture. All else is vain.
Yes, it is correct. It is precisely what futurism teaches, albeit with a great deal more detail. (Read the "Left Behind" series.)
The early Church fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries understood and held to the idea of a singular Antichrist to come at the end of this world, and his ending sacrifices and setting up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem per Daniel's final "one week" prophecy, just as written in the Book of Daniel and in Matthew 24. The doctrine of Futurism came much later, in the 15th - 16th centuries, as also was the pre-trib secret rapture theory in the 1830's.
One must remember though NH that those same 'church fathers' you speak of thought the end of the world would be in their lifetime. They had no idea of what form the Antichrist would take, but the early church was often found in prayer asking God to allow the pagan Roman rule to remain because they knew pagan Rome was the restrainer holding back the dreaded Antichrist.
And as history reveals, as pagan Rome faded away, the Antichrist, the institution of the RCC, rose to power.
Pre-tribber's belief about the Daniel events is actually what the early Church fathers also believed. What pre-tribbers hold to that is false which the early Church fathers did not believe, is the idea of a pre-tribulational secret rapture. The early Church fathers held to a post-tribulational gathering of the Church at Christ's second coming after the tribulation, and that is what is actually written in Scripture.
No argument there NH
The answer to that is simple also. The unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem will agree with the Antichrist not because they will know he is Antichrist. How could you not understand that? They are awaiting the return of The Messiah, and that's who the Antichrist is coming to portray, and who they will believe he is. Many deceived Christian brethren will also believe that along with those orthodox Jews, which is what Paul's falling away idea in 2 Thess.2 is about. They will think he is Jesus.
Where you err NH is in equating Satan's impersonation of Christ with the rise of the Antichrist. They are separate entities...the former yet to take place, the latter having been around for 1500 years.
When you link men's doctrine of "futurism" with Bible prophecy that the early Church fathers saw as future for the end of this world, you're promoting a fib. But in regard to the pre-trib secret rapture doctrine of 1830's forward, you are right. So I will contend all day with you on that point.
I am not making any such link...in fact I am in agreement with you. The futurism I speak of had its roots in the counter-reformation.
Ah..., so you believe the Christian Church is offsprung from the Antichrist? That thinking suggest you are not a Christian. Am I wrong in that?
Not quite sure where you are coming from here? The
apostate Christian church
is the Antichrist. And Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots is a combination of the Antichrist (the RCC) and all her apostate daughters (the mainline reformation churches who no longer hold to the reformed doctrines) who have rejoined her in her adulterous relationship with the kings of the earth.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (Fleeing into the mountains is "in the wilderness" as in rev. 12:6)
