Scripture is of no private interpretation

[Jonathan_Gale]

I agree about connecting dots. Thats why i cant understand why people cant see the rapture of the church and Gods dealing with Israel during tribulation. The old testamen is full of it. Every book of prophecy .
And yes Satan is called Satan many times in revelation.
But that still does not mean he is called Lucifer in Isaiah.
Thanks brother

“Lucifer” is a Latin name made up by the translator, I remember the original one is something sounds like "Hallel", and "Satan" is just a title which means "enemy" or "adversary". But whatever you'd like to call him, it doesn't change his character described in Is. 14. Pride, the sin of all sins, originates from nobody else but him who dared to challenge God's authority and got cast out of heaven.

 

[lentz]

“Lucifer” is a Latin name made up by the translator, I remember the original one is something sounds like "Hallel", and "Satan" is just a title which means "enemy" or "adversary". But whatever you'd like to call him, it doesn't change his character described in Is. 14. Pride, the sin of all sins, originates from nobody else but him who dared to challenge God's authority and got cast out of heaven.

True. And it also fits the character of the world today
People challenge Gods authority everyday. Turn on the news. Thay are trying to ascend into heaven by the bus loads.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

True. And it also fits the character of the world today
People challenge Gods authority everyday. Turn on the news. Thay are trying to ascend into heaven by the bus loads.

Didn't I say "originate"? Where did this pride come from? And again, which one of them was cast out of heaven - instead of raised up from the dirt?

 

[lentz]

Didn't I say "originate"? Where did this pride come from?

Aww youre going to hare me for this.

Human nature. The old man. That serpent. So subtle.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Aww youre going to hare me for this.

Human nature. The old man. That serpent. So subtle.

Yes, and that is the SIN NATURE, a major stumbling block for modern people who generally don't believe in original sin.

 

[lentz]

Yes, and that is the SIN NATURE, a major stumbling block for modern people who generally don't believe in original sin.

I believe in the original sin. Im just not convinced it took place in heaven.

I believe man had fall. I believe it was by design. God knew or wanted them to fall.
Man was created only to perfect a soul. That soul has to be perfected before it can dwell in Gods glory/heaven. And the only way to perfect something is by trying. Like gold in the fire. So there had to be a tool,an adversary. Now did God create a being predestined to hell? I dont know. But there had to be a being,nature of some kind.
But the plan of salvation was predetermined before the world was created the scriptures say. So then God had to know all along man would fail.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

believe in the original sin. Im just not convinced it took place in heaven.

Then put Is. 14 aside, how does Satan get to present before God (Job 1:6) and accuse our brethrens before God (Rev. 12:10)? And by the way, all angels can freely climb up and down Jacob's ladder, that includes Satan and his angels, so even though they're on earth, they still have access to heaven. In Rev. 12 he's PERMANENTLY cast out of heaven, and he's given three and a half years on earth to wreak havoc.

 

[lentz]

Then put Is. 14 aside, how does Satan get to present before God (Job 1:6) and accuse our brethrens before God (Rev. 12:10)? And by the way, all angels can freely climb up and down Jacob's ladder, that includes Satan and his angels, so even though they're on earth, they still have access to heaven. In Rev. 12 he's PERMANENTLY cast out of heaven, and he's given three and a half years on earth to wreak havoc.

Now Job is a tough one for me. Thats why used "convinsed" earlier.
I am still learnibg and dont have all the abswers. And in the end i mayfind out you were right. Or,we were both wrong.

So far........The Sons of God are believers like in Gen.6. Whan believers pray,they come in to the presence of God.
Then in walks Satan. It may be,Job is the Satan of the story. With his prideful self. Saying look at me God,do what ever you want,i will not fail you
But then we get to the actual bad stuff and i cant tie it down.

But at end of book. Job repents. It WAS him all along.

But. I can change my thought on this tomorrow.
And believe the same as you. Just studing for myself.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Now Job is a tough one for me. Thats why used "convinsed" earlier.
I am still learnibg and dont have all the abswers. And in the end i mayfind out you were right. Or,we were both wrong.

So far........The Sons of God are believers like in Gen.6. Whan believers pray,they come in to the presence of God.
Then in walks Satan. It may be,Job is the Satan of the story. With his prideful self. Saying look at me God,do what ever you want,i will not fail you
But then we get to the actual bad stuff and i cant tie it down.

But at end of book. Job repents. It WAS him all along.

But. I can change my thought on this tomorrow.
And believe the same as you. Just studing for myself.

No, man, you've greatly mistaken. In the OT, those sons of God are fallen angels who will be judged and condemned to eternal hell:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die LIKE men, and fall LIKE one of the princes. (Ps. 82:6-7)

Similar disapproval of these sons of God was written in some other psalms. Those are most definitely not huamn tyrants who'd just die and fall and return to dust. Such penalty is only fitting for the corrupt heavenly hosts in God's divine council, there're many references of them in the OT. In the end they'll be replaced with the church who will rule with Christ in the kingdom.

 

[Hekuran]

OK, then you tell me which "earthly king" can be cast out of heaven in Is. 14:12?

It's directed to the king of Babylon

On the day the Lord gives you reliefm from your suffering and turmoiln and from the harsh labor forced on you, you will take up this tauntp against the king of Babylon

"Lucifer" is a Latin name for Morning Star or Venus. So Isaiah is using the same dramatically inflated language that earthly kings used to talk about themselves in his taunt.

This great star will be thrown down to earth in shame

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

It's directed to the king of Babylon

No it's not. From 14:12 and there on it was changed to Lucifer. Nabuchadnezzar wasn't cast out of heaven.

 

[lentz]

No, man, you've greatly mistaken. In the OT, those sons of God are fallen angels who will be judged and condemned to eternal hell:

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die LIKE men, and fall LIKE one of the princes. (Ps. 82:6-7)

Similar disapproval of these sons of God was written in some other psalms. Those are most definitely not huamn tyrants who'd just die and fall and return to dust. Such penalty is only fitting for the corrupt heavenly hosts in God's divine council, there're many references of them in the OT. In the end they'll be replaced with the church who will rule with Christ in the kingdom.

I can go along with you on some points. But sons of God in gen 6 were definitely human

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I can go along with you on some points. But sons of God in gen 6 were definitely human

No, they were not. The term "sons of God" itself indicates a divine nature beyond flesh and bones.

 

[lentz]

No, they were not. The term "sons of God" itself indicates a divine nature beyond flesh and bones.

Sons of God pertain to believers as well. Christ hadnt come yet,but they were still faithful. Saints could even be ussd to refer to old testament believers.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Sons of God pertain to believers as well. Christ hadnt come yet,but they were still faithful. Saints could even be ussd to refer to old testament believers.

No it couldn't. Saints are adopted as co-heirs of Christ, and Christ is the only way to God. No Christ, no co-heirs.

Also, regarding Is. 14:14, "in the beginning God created heavenS and earth", there're multiple levels of heaven, the third heaven is where God dwells, it's like the Holy of holies in the heavenly realm which Paul mentioned (2 Cor 12:2), that's the heaven referred to the context of Is. 14. Satan is not content with his access to heaven in general, he wants to ascend to the HIGHEST level of heaven where God dwells.

 

[lentz]

No it couldn't. Saints are adopted as co-heirs of Christ, and Christ is the only way to God. No Christ, no co-heirs.

Also, regarding Is. 14:14, "in the beginning God created heavenS and earth", there're multiple levels of heaven, the third heaven is where God dwells, it's like the Holy of holies in the heavenly realm which Paul mentioned (2 Cor 12:2), that's the heaven referred to the context of Is. 14. Satan is not content with his access to heaven in general, he wants to ascend to the HIGHEST level of heaven where God dwells.

Now youre guessing

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Now youre guessing

Go google "third heaven" and draw your own conclusion.

 

[lentz]

Now youre guessing

I will. And thanks.
Is this the way you believe?

 

[complete]

How then can Lucifer be labeled as Satan,when nowhere does the scriptures make such claim?

'How art thou fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground,
which didst weaken the nations!'
(Isa 14:12)

Hello @lentz,

In my Bible's marginal notes, in relation to Isaiah 14:12 and the word, 'Lucifer', it says:-

'Lucifer=Morning-star.
Worshipped by the Assyrians as male at sunrise, female at sunset.
A name of Satan.'

See also, Lucifer - Wikipedia.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I can go along with you on some points. But sons of God in gen 6 were definitely human

You see, this is the pitfall of verse by verse anatomical analysis, it blinds you from seeing the bigger picture. If those were OT saints, why did they become so wicked that God had to wipe them all out with the Flood?