Should Christians own guns?

[eddieb]

David Mentioned his love for a AK-47. He did not even get a nibble on his comment, so he asked if everyone was sleeping.

The AK-47 is a Russian assault rifle designed for one thing. That is to destroy about whatever it hits. Not many people own these, unless you live in Iraq of course.

The AK-47 can go through all the standard body armor police wear today (Level III- I saw the demonstration on video) with no issues at all. It can also go through car doors with no problems, Walls, and many other things.

So, David777 should have had at least a few comments about his remark about them.

Jesus Is Lord.

i wasnt gonna say nothing for sake of being bashed. but since i dont really care, i own an ak47. got chinesse drum mags. 100 and 75 rounds. german steel banannas also. had it for years. good times. never commited any crimes with it nor do i plan to. but it sure is fun to mow down dead trees with. and blow up water jugs. ammos cheap too.

and yes, it is legal, and registered in my name. i prefer an m-14 though.

 

[lawrenceb]

preparation/survivalism is scriptural

Should Christians own guns?

And should they be used against others to defend yourself.

...If as Christians you have a gun what justification do you have in owning one?

The whole of Scripture is, if nothing else, a chronology of the preparation for the coming tribulation!

When many of the remnant realize that the Tribulation is right around the corner and not in the far-off future in somebody else's lifetime, a decision is made. The ones that make this commitment are not wishy-washy Christians. They realize that their eternal life is on the line. These are Christians that are willing to stand in the lion's den, and face the trials that are coming their way.

I hope you can understand that there are a lot of people that are hearing God's voice, answering God's call, and believe that they are doing God's will. Many of them are doing exactly what God is telling them to do. God is raising up Christian soldiers (in the spiritual sense) who are willing to do God's will unto death. They know that one day they may look death in the face and are willing to die for Christ. These are strong Christians willing to take a stand now, while most of the churches are asleep and have no idea what lies around the corner.

In contrast, many other sleeping Christians are criticizing those that are preparing and saying that they are exhibiting a lack of faith because they are preparing.

Which of these two groups do you think fits the description of the ones who will fall away, described in 2 Thess? The Christian soldiers or the Christians who are asleep?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (2 Thess 2:3)

We know that the above verse is describing the Christians that will fall away after the Tribulation starts. The great majority of today's churches believe that they will be whisked away in a rapture before the bad times start. Most are totally unprepared for the coming times. They have not prepared spiritually, mentally, or physically. Faced with the worst times this world has ever known, it would be fairly easy to see why they would fall away.

On the other hand, the majority of remnant Christians believe that the Tribulation is right around the corner. They are preparing spiritually, mentally, and physically. Many of them believe that we will go through at least a portion of the Tribulation. These will probably be the most likely to stand, and will help to be the strength of those who have not prepared, but will then be willing to make a stand.

There seems to be steps people take in this movement. At the remnant Christian point, they no longer make it a priority to save this country, but seek God to find out where and what He wants them to do. They continue to take a stand against evil, and they take a stand for the righteous. I know this to be a fact, for these are the stages that God brought me through.

I have to state that through all of this, I am a stronger Christian. I see the hardest times this world has ever known almost upon us. In the past, I have wandered from the Lord from time to time. Thankfully, I never went too far. Now there is no turning back. I am here to stay. This is no time for games. This is serious and I am in this to the end, whatever that may be.

I have seen many people come to make this decision from this movement. And seeing what I have seen and experienced, I have to say that this is a move on God's part. He is using this movement to wake His people up. And if God is using this movement, then we should be praying for more people to wake up and join, shouldn't we?

On to the next point. Are we to prepare spiritually, mentally, and physically? I'm sure that you would agree to spiritual and mental preparation. But, what about physical preparation? Is it Biblical? Let's take a look at that aspect of preparation.

I will give you the viewpoint that lays upon my heart with biblical references to back them up. All of the Scriptures that I use are from the King James Version of the Bible.

We will begin with the saving of Noah. Indeed, Noah was commanded to lay in a storage of food for himself, his family, and all of the animals that were led into the ark.

And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. (Gen 6:21)

Now, I'm sure that when Noah was in the process of building the ark, and loading all of the animals and food into the ark, he was ridiculed. This was very much like the way the people within this movement are ridiculed. When Noah had completed his work, God shut the door of the ark and the rain began to fall.

In Matthew and Luke, Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man would be as in the days of Noah.

And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:26-27)

But are we to follow what Noah did? We he indeed an example for this generation? In Hebrews, it says that Noah built the ark by faith.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb 11:7)

Noah was warned of things not seen as yet. He was moved with fear, and prepared an ark to the saving of his family. Did not Jesus say "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man"?

We have the writings of the prophets and the book of Revelation warning us of the things not seen as yet. We are moving with fear (not fear of what is coming, but fear of the Lord), and preparing an ark to the saving of our family.

Let's now take a look at Joseph and the interpretation of Pharaoh's dream. In this instance, God used a dream to warn the Pharaoh of the upcoming famine. It was interpreted by Joseph and the food was then stored for the coming years of drought.

God has given us the Bible with many warnings of famine, pestilence, wars, and all kinds of tribulation that are upcoming. Here, we have a roadmap of what is about to occur. Are we to ignore these warnings? Are we to believe that we are to just sit back and go for the ride? It seems to me that if the Lord has warned us of upcoming events, that we are to be ready for these events.

We are not just a spirit, we also have a soul and body. I said earlier that I'm sure that you would agree with spiritual and mental preparation, but are we to leave out the body? One cannot function without the other.

Because the Lord had to continue the line of Israel (through which the Messiah would come) during the seven years of drought, He certainly could have chosen to drop manna down from heaven. But He did not do this. He chose instead to prepare them through a dream. Why did He chose to do it through a dream? Maybe, as an example? When a warning from God comes to a person, whether it be through a dream or His Word, are we not to listen to the warning?

This brings us to the next example concerning Moses and the trek through the wilderness.

The Israelites that had just come out of Egypt had been slaves and had to be taught to rely upon God for their very existence. They were not allowed to hoard food and had to totally rely on God for everything. This was done for a number of reasons, but the one that we are concerned with here is what is pointed out in the New Testament about the trek through the wilderness.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Cor 10:1-11)

It says in the last verse that things happened to them for ensamples, and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. We must take a look at the context of those verses, which, when examined, clearly show what we should not do.

We are not to lust after evil things. This is simply to say, don't commit sin. These are the things which were written for our admonition.

In Ezekiel, there is a place where the Lord told Ezekiel to gather the food that he would need for 390 days.

And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege. Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. (Eze 4:8-9)

Ezekiel is told to take unto himself enough food to keep him for 390 days. Now, the Lord could have fed him by a raven, or dropped down manna from heaven, but He chose to tell him to gather the food to get him through that 390 days. Now, that was not in a time of famine, but still he prepared by gathering the food that he would need for 390 days.

There is a Scripture that is used by some to discredit any type of preparation. It centers around Jeremiah 17:5.

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. (Jer 17:5)

This verse is very clear to me. I do not trust in man and I have not departed from the Lord. And the Christian is not making flesh his arm. I speak for myself and many I know, that we are not trusting in the things that we have stored.

They can be confiscated, stolen, ruined, and possibly may be left behind. We are relying on what the Lord is telling us to do; through His Word, through dreams, and through Him laying upon our hearts what we need to do. In short, we trust in the Lord.

Now, that verse very well could be describing the patriot and survivalist, but here again, we should not be condemning them. We should be showing them the truth of what is happening. Most of them think that they are alone and may have never known the Lord.

This verse in Jeremiah says cursed be the man that departs from the Lord. How can one depart from something that they have never known? I'm not saying that all of the patriots and survivalists out there don't know the Lord. What I am saying is that you cannot rightfully lump everyone together and condemn them.

Some people out there say that we are justifying our actions in preparation for the great harvest of souls when all of this comes down. They suggest that we are thinking 'by our wise planning, we can keep God's people going so that they don't have to suffer.' These critics further say that we are envisioning the countless unsaved people that will be astonished at the fact that the Lord led us to store all of these supplies.

If anybody has that attitude, they are definitely on the wrong path!

Let me, however, show you a different view. We are not looking for self-gratification, and we really don't know who we'll be helping. It could be fellow Christians, unsaved people, and even our enemy. The Lord has not yet revealed that to us. We are just following what He has told us. We may give everything away that we have stored because of one simple fact: It is not our food, medical supplies, MRE's; it is the Lord's. And the Lord can do with them as He sees fit.

The souls that will be saved during the Tribulation may be led to us by the Lord. And if He chooses to lead them to us, we will provide them with what we can. If they are willing, we will lead them to the Lord. After all, is that not what our main purpose in life is? To lead people to the Lord?

Let's now take a look at the prudent man described in Proverbs. First of all, this verse is in two places in Proverbs and has the exact same wording.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. (Pro 22:3; 27:12)

If this is in the Bible twice with the same wording, it bears some looking at. Let's see if this prudent person is relying on his own wisdom or on the wisdom of God. The word "prudent" used in the above verses is the same word used in the following verses.

The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit. (Pro 14:8)

The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge. (Pro 14:18)

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.

A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame. (Pro 12:16)

A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness. (Pro 12:23)

Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly. (Pro 13:16)

From the above verses, I would really like to be the prudent one that is described above. I'm not saying that I am, but I would certainly choose to struggle to attain the wisdom and knowledge of the prudent. According to the above descriptions, if you are not prudent, then you are a fool. Which one would you choose to be?

So, if the prudent sees the evil which is coming and hides himself, I choose to be the prudent one instead of being punished for being foolish. In fact, there is a parable of 10 virgins that seems to correspond to this ideology.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matt 25:1-13)

This parable seems to be speaking about preparedness. The five wise virgins already had their lamps filled whereas the five foolish virgins did not prepare ahead of time and tried to bum some off of the ones that had prepared. There was not enough oil for sharing and so the foolish virgins left to go get some and were then refused entry. They were therefore punished for their non-preparation. Shouldn't we be like the wise virgins?

The majority of remnant Christians have complete faith in their eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Whether we die from a disease, in battle, from a nuclear strike, or falling off a cliff, we are the Lord's.

You need to understand the mindset of this Christian that I am speaking about. We believe that our future and life lie totally in His hands. We have given up dreams, aspirations, goals for our life, and yes, even family members and friends, to follow Christ. We have picked up our cross and we are following Him.

Do we want to survive? Of course we do, but the Lord will choose whether we live to see Him return or whether we die. It is His decision, not ours. For we must surrender all to Christ, even our lives. Does this sound like a survivalist attitude?

The next item that needs to be mentioned is in the book of Romans.

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (Rom 12:20)

Will we feed our enemy? Yes we will. We will do our best to feed everyone that hungers and we will share with everyone in need. And if we don't have enough to feed them, then the Lord can multiply the food as He did with the fishes and the loaves, or He will provide another way.

If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink (Pro 25:21)

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (1 John 3:17)

He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor. (Pro 22:9)

The above verses describe his brother, his enemy, and the poor. The Lord instructs us to feed all of the above. For us to keep it only for ourselves is against God's Word.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Matt 25:34-36)

Now, what about the government and the New World Order? Are we to obey and to submit to them or are we to stand against them?

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29)

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb 13:17)

We are supposed to obey God and submit to those that are in rule over us, IF they are a Godly government. We are not to submit to a government that is going against God's Word. "We ought to obey God rather than men."

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (Rom 13:1-4)

Those verses were not telling us to be subject to all rulers. You see that those verses are telling us to be subject to Godly men, ministers of God. These verses definitely do not describe our government, or the government of the Antichrist. We should not obey or submit to an evil government at any cost!

There are verses that address the act of protecting your belongings.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matt 24:43)

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. (Luke 12:39)

The goodman of the house is Strong's #3611 and is defined as an occupant or someone who resides in a dwelling. The word "suffered" means allow. So Jesus is saying that if the occupant or resident knew when the thief would come, he would not allow him to break in.

In those days, you went after thieves with swords and staves. Here, Jesus is not rebuking the goodman for protecting his property, for he is actually expected to do so.

There are a few more verses that I would like to add that will help to show that it is not wrong to prepare. And one of those preparations may be to store items used for growing food during time of famine.

Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. (Pro 6:6-11)

We are to consider the ant's ways and be wise, who provides her meat in the summer and gathers her food in the harvest.

He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain [persons] shall have poverty enough. (Pro 28:19)

He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame. (Pro 10:4-5)

Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof: so he that waiteth on his master shall be honoured. (Pro 27:18)

Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ***. (Isa 32:20)

The above verses say that one who works the land shall have plenty of bread, and he that gathers in the summer is wise, and blessed are ye who plants beside all waters and sends forth thither the feet of the ox and the ***.

Isaiah 32:20 is actually speaking about planting to supply food during a time of famine. Let's back up a few verses and see what it says about this.

Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come. Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins. They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. (Isa 32:10-12)

That sounds like a famine to me. The grapes shall fail, the gathering shall not come, they will want for milk, pleasant fields (crops), and fruitful vines (berries, and grapes). This chapter then ends with "Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ***."

Other related areas that could also be explored include spiritual preparation and physical defense. But those will have to wait for another time.

In summing all of this up, I can find nowhere that we are told not to prepare. There is plenty of Scripture on trusting in God. We are not preparing so that we can save our own skins.

We do not have guns and ammo so that we can take a lot of them out when we go. The simple fact is, we are preparing because the Lord has told us to do so; and we have guns and ammunition for self-defense. There is nothing that I have found in the Bible that contradicts these actions.

We are not storing food, medical supplies, or guns because we have no faith in God. He says in His Word that He will supply all of our needs. Cold it be possible that by having us stock up now He is supplying our future needs? He could very possibly be supplying your future needs with the supplies we are now storing.

Please keep in mind that some day in the future, you may be very hungry, and the Lord may lead you to someone who had listened to the Lord, and had stored food. You may eat this food that God led this person to store. So, you may want to be careful who you condemn and criticize.

God frequently uses the things of this world to accomplish His will. He uses many types of people to accomplish His will. Could it be possible that He is laying on our hearts what we must do now, thereby allowing to fulfill His will later? If He is telling us to do this, and we ignore Him or tell Him that "I'm not going to do this because you will provide for me," will He still be obligated to supply or needs?

There is a saying that I heard that I would like to share with you. There was a bad flood. The waters rose and a man and his family climbed to his roof for safety. The waters were swift and still rising. This man had faith and told his family "God will save us." After some time, a small boat arrives and the man in the boat asks the man "Would you like to come with me?" The man on the roof told him "God will save us."

The boat left and a little while later a helicopter flies over them. The man in the helicopter yells down to the man "Would you like to come with me?" The man on the roof yelled back "God will save us." The helicopter left, the waters kept rising and finally rose over the roof and swept the family away. Upon the man's arrival in heaven, he asked God, "Lord, I had faith that you would save us. How come You didn't?" The Lord answered him and said "I sent a boat and a helicopter to save you. What more did you want?"

I cannot speak for every person; only the Lord knows each of our hearts. I am sure that some are only in it for the profit, some are only trying to save their own skins. Some are planning to take a lot of them out when they go, some of them plan on just crawling in a hole somewhere, and some may have ideas to be their own type of savior by sharing what they have.

I know that most of the remnant are being led by God and are drawing closer to Him, for the time is evil. So, to lump all of these together is not right. In fact, it is absolutely wrong.

That's like saying that all of the churches are apostate, unholy, and have turned their backs on God, and that there are no Godly people within those churches. Granted, that may describe many of today's churches, but it does not describe all of them. And even within some of those apostate churches may be true Christians that have not yet removed themselves from that church.

God is using this movement as a warning to the people that He is coming back, and they need to get ready.

Now, I not saying that every Christian out there should be stocking up. In fact, the first thing I tell others to do is to seek the Lord on the issue!

Those that are condemning the preparedness movement and the people within it may be putting a stumbling block in their brother's way and may be wrongly judging them. In this, it is the Lord's place to judge, not ours.

I pray that the Lord has answered some of your questions on this matter and I hope this was of some benefit to you. If the Lord is laying it on your heart to prepare, then follow His leading. We have a long and rough road ahead. But, with our eternal salvation in Christ Jesus, we cannot lose.

May the Lord bless you and show you the way. (Pro 14:15)

 

[David777]

Hello Lawrenceb.

Rather brief post you should try and add a bit more next time.

I do not disagree with what you said and particularly liked the following,

We know that the above verse is describing the Christians that will fall away after the Tribulation starts.
The great majority of today's churches believe that they will be whisked away in a rapture before the bad times start.
Most are totally unprepared for the coming times. They have not prepared spiritually, mentally, or physically.
Faced with the worst times this world has ever known, it would be fairly easy to see why they would fall away.

I tend to have the same view as you do regarding eschatology.

Whether it is sooner or later I do not know, but as every day passes it is getting closer no doubt.

By the way Lawrence I think this thread was about Christians and firearms. Not that you are required to follow the subject of the thread
precisely.

Thanks anyway Lawrence.

 

[David777]

Hello Eddieb.

I wish I lived in your vicinity we could go shooting, I would love to fire a few rounds on some of your weapons.
I took my brothers kids to a shooting range so they could have a go at shotguns. They loved it of course,
I always enjoy shooting things but not living creatures.

I bet you live on a farm eddieb?

 

[DarthTrekkie]

as mentioned earlier, Jesus Desciples had swords and that is New Testament. In fact, Revelations tells of Christ returning as a mighty warrior with a sword dripping with blood. Here is the defining line. If it is YOU being attacked, then yes, turning the other cheek would beloving your enemies and living as Christ. If however, you were on the sideline and just watched as evil men raped, beat or murdered the innocent, then that blood might as well be on your head because you did nothing to help. God still calls us to defend others. Whether it is a stranger or my own family, I will answer that call. Also, if the rapture happens to be post trib, not pre trib, it might be nice to be able to hunt for food. That being said, stay true to your convictions. Nobody is making you buy a gun. (As far as we know) God bless.

 

[DarthTrekkie]

One more thing. I recently read a book that spoke about how God created men with a natural warrior spirit (in the image of God the warrior) its not about gun ownership at all but it has some good biblical points about who we were created to be as men. I recomend it highly. Its called "Wild at Heart" by John Eldridge. It may shed some light on some of the concepts we have been hitting on.

 

[howard]

Choosing your Weapon of Warfare

we are living in the last days Sisters and Brothers, Jesus says the Love of many will wax cold because sin has increased

Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

we see the nations preparing for war cutting social programs and buying weapons for war

Joel 3v9: Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

we see the increase of personal guns and ammonition

yet no one is looking at the Lord as their shield and buckler

where is the faith in the Lord?

do you own a gun servant of God?

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do servants of God need weapons of protection or should a servant of God rely on the Lord as their shield and buckler?

Deut 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

In times of trouble, hard or difficult times the Lord will not fail us.
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Mt 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

the Lord told us to love our neighbour

Mt 22v37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38: This is the first and great commandment.

39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

the Love of many shall wax cold, that many may and will include your neighbour

but we trust in HIS words and in HIM that he will deliver us from all sins

1Tm 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Brother Mike]

Moved post

I moved your Post here Howard since we are already discussing the Moral Issues with Christians having guns. I also combined your triple post, if possible, use the edit button if you have more to share, unless someone post directly under you before you get a chance.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[DarthTrekkie]

Luke 22:36 Jesus tells his desciples that if they don't already own swords, they need to go buy one.

I would challenge anyone to show me where scripture says we should NOT protect our wives and children from harm or where we are instructed not to own any type of weapon or where it is a sin to hunt.

Turning the other cheek is for personal infliction. Where did Jesus say that it is Godly for us to let others fall into harm? No we are instructed to help others to a point where it is sacrificial to us.

I don't own a gun because I have a self righteous "don't mess with me" additude I own a gun because if (heaven forbid) I ever needed to go into battle for the weak or hunting for the hungry,I won't be bringing a knife to a gunfight.

God called up armies in the old testament. End times will be even worse then they were in those times.

I agree that we are to trust in the Lord for all circumstances. Of all the things He's spoken to my heart, He's never told me to get rid of my gun. Could it be because He knows I trust Him and I won't use it for unholy reasons?

 

[Ignis_et_Lux]

I thought this verse was pertinent to the discussion:

14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. (Romans 14:14-18)

 

[Chad]

I read all 5 pages just now straight through. Didn't see this thread before, and a very interesting topic. Well, here's my thoughts on this, and with Scripture most importantly.

House was broken into back in '87 or so, when I was about 8 years old. I remember being furious and mouthing off to my sister about the "bad guys" who broke into our house and what I would do to them. Yep, at that young age. Today, should that happen to me, whether I have a wife and kids or not - I reserve my right to defend myself from any unwelcomed intruder. If someone breaks into my home, he's going down. I don't own a gun, but I certainly would not hesitate to register a handgun and be prepared to protect my life and the life of my loved ones living in my home.

As for the comments made about following your conscious, I an agree on that personally. Sometimes certain things may stir our conscious and weigh heavy on our hearts, while that same subject would do nothing to another believer's conscious. I don't think its a conflict of what Scripture says or not says, but more so that every person has their own personality, uniqueness, life circumstances, environment, and other factors that GOD is fully aware of and may convict each person differently on the same subject.

Example: GOD most likely would convict a man with a serious temper, short fuse, lack of patience to not own a gun (or sell the one he has). Another man who has faith in GOD and the peace of Christ in him, a family in his home, may be at peace completely of owning a gun for protection sake.

Another example: owning a gun for hunting, for food. No Scripture against that I'm aware of. A vegetarian may be against that and reigns in their conscious heavily, while the hunter is more thrilled and excited about hunting game and eating what GOD has provided. Jesus ate fish, don't forget. What about the meaty animals in the OT that were eaten?

I do not own a gun. If I did, it would not be for hunting (not yet, as of now its not my concern, joy, hobby or such). I would own a gun for protecting my home.

Someone in the thread mentioned about not being able to bear the fact they killed someone in self defense. I can relate to that feeling and I'm the last guy you would look at and even think such. You would look at me and think I've already wiped out some, but I have not

So, owning a gun for protection...if an intruder came to my house (as a woman previously said in the thread that she would defend what is hers), amen to that. Me too. I would defend whomever my wife and children are and even my pet(s) I may have in my home. How would I do so? Well, let's not forget the sudden fear and anxiety you will be struck with at the moment you're aware of an intrusion in your home. What if he has a gun? Who is it? What will happen? What should I do?

You don't have to kill the intruder to defend yourself. For me, I would aim for his knees and maybe a shot in both his hands. No kidding. That will stop him in his track and give the police time to come and do their thing. But, at the sudden heat of the moment would someone know and remember to do this method, to avoid killing the suspect? Maybe so, maybe not. But self defense doesn't necessarily require taking the life away of the other. Is it wrong if you did in self defense? Each situation is different. Also, is it *necessary* to go that far to defend yourself? Don't forget the law of the land. Each country is different in its self defense laws.

Matthew 26:52
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Faith is always the #1 option. Faith in GOD can move mountains, calm raging seas, heal, deliver, redeem, etc.

Do not forget the millions of angels GOD has at His disposal. I believe GOD uses angels to protect His sheep (us believers)

Just an article I found relating to that, in general sense:
Do we have guardian angels?

I just found this interesting topic-related article, I'm sharing it but did not read it fully:

Biblical Self-Defense

 

[eddieb]

I wish I lived in your vicinity we could go shooting, I would love to fire a few rounds on some of your weapons.
I took my brothers kids to a shooting range so they could have a go at shotguns. They loved it of course,
I always enjoy shooting things but not living creatures.

I bet you live on a farm eddieb?

locals here call where we live "the sticks". when you look around its all you see is trees. i would let you shoot it too.
i only shoot living creatures if i need to eat. i have this soap box i can get on real fast about deer heads on walls. when i first started hunting i sometimes would feel sad for the animal and i would get sick to my stomach when i cleaned it.(i was a boy then) you get used to it though. I feel alot better when I aint got nothing for the dinner table and then boom... freezers full/family is fed. where i live huntin is just a part of life.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Are we not living in New Testament times? The Old has passed away. No more killing. I relate having a gun as one who wilfully kills. Maybe it is just me. I don’t know.

The Law is still in effect (Mt 5:18-19), but, we are no longer under the curse of the Law (Ro 7:20-21). Big difference.

SLE

 

[dagelos]

And should they be used against others to defend yourself. If you are a police officer how does that fit in with your Christian Ideals. Do you use them to hunt or for fun or protection. If you own one why do you have it or them?

I refused to take part in a shooting range because deep down I felt it was wrong as a Christian. I would like other opinions on this please. Maybe I am being wrong in my assumptions. Yet I know Thou shalt not kill resonates within me. Guns are made for killing. If as Christians you have a gun what justification do you have in owning one?

Thanks in advance

Matthew 10:34:Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 26:51:And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.

Matthew 26:52:Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Mark 14:47:And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

Luke 2:35Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Luke 21:24:And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 22:36:Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Luke 22:49:When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?

John 18:10:Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

John 18:11:Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Luke 22:35-38:35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.




I assume the sword is today the equivalent of the gun....




I think Christians have built up this whole idea that they should be peaceful people.
But where does it say that they should stay away from weapons as forbidden objects?


Exodus 15:3:The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.


You stated ''Yet I know Thou shalt not kill resonates within me. Guns are made for killing.''


Ecclesiastes 3:3:A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;


There seems to be ''A time to kill''


I think there is a difference in ''Thou shalt not kill'' and 'A time to kill'''. One deals with murder and one deals with Justice,for these examples...






Exodus 21:12:He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.


Exodus 21:15:And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.


Exodus 21:16:And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.


Exodus 21:17:And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.


Exodus 21:29:But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.


Exodus 22:19:Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.


Exodus 31:!4:Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.


Exodus 31:!5:Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

 

[David777]

Hello eddieb.

Good to recieve a reply from you eddieb, appreciated.

You stated the following:

locals here call where we live "the sticks". when you look around its all you see is trees. i would let you shoot it too.
i only shoot living creatures if i need to eat. i have this soap box i can get on real fast about deer heads on walls. when i first started hunting i sometimes would feel sad for the animal and i would get sick to my stomach when i cleaned it.(i was a boy then) you get used to it though. I feel alot better when I aint got nothing for the dinner table and then boom... freezers full/family is fed. where i live huntin is just a part of life.

I have no problem with what you wrote.

People who live in rural areas such as farmers need firearms,
it is a part of life in those environments. My comments were more for
those in urban areas. Wish I could hunt for my own food, I have to rely
on 2nd class meat from the supermarkets. Our best meat is exported
for huge financial gain. You probably don't realize how well off you are.

 

[David777]

Hello dagelos.

Hope your having fun quoting from the Old Testament law.

I am a Gentile not a Jew, so I am not under the old covenants.

Are you Jewish dagelos?

 

[dagelos]

Hope your having fun quoting from the Old Testament law.

I am a Gentile not a Jew, so I am not under the old covenants.

Are you Jewish dagelos?

Gentile does not mean non-Jew.

Where in the Bible is an ''individual person'' described as a gentile?

I am not a Jew nor was the word Jew used to describe Israel in the OT.

 

[Chad]

Gentile does not mean non-Jew.

Where in the Bible is an ''individual person'' described as a gentile?

I am not a Jew nor was the word Jew used to describe Israel in the OT.

You are incorrect about that. Once again, as in your other thread posts you speak with no knowledge or proper understanding, because you reject the truth.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

(Hebrews, usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews. In course of time, as the Jews began more and more to pride themselves on their peculiar privileges, it acquired unpleasant associations, and was used as a term of contempt.

In the New Testament the Greek word Hellenes, meaning literally Greek (as in Acts 16:1, 3; 18:17; Romans 1:14), generally denotes any non-Jewish nation.

 

[faithfulservant]

I think pacifism in Christianity may have gone in a direction that is not wholly Biblical. I also agree with the poster who said it's important to listen to God and what He wants you to do. Remember, David sought the LORD regarding his children and wives, and the LORD plainly told him to pursue the bad guys and all would be restored. He obeyed, and the LORD was glorified and his wife and children (among many others) were saved.

I think the word is clear that when they come to deliver us up, or when they come to martyr anyone who doesn't denounce Jesus, we die holding tight to our Lord. We don't fight when the state system is persecuting or murdering, as the scriptures declare.

However, that doesn't mean we allow our families to be brutalized in the name of random violence and evil. For example, the Word clearly states that we should do what's right because the authorities "do not bear the sword in vain."

That means the LORD uses the police, or whatever civil authority to mete out judgment, even to death, upon criminals who wish to wreak havoc and evil in the world.

To extend this thinking, what if there are no civil authorities? Would the LORD not want decent Christians to stand for what's right and do their best to maintain authority, even if it means using the sword (or gun) to do so? I think it's a reasonable extension of logic to assume the LORD would indeed want Christians to maintain order and law in a lawless situation (using force if necessary).

 

[lawrenceb]

guns, law enforcement and military

That means the LORD uses the police, or whatever civil authority to mete out judgment, even to death, upon criminals who wish to wreak havoc and evil in the world.

One of the most plain examples of the mindset of Jesus our Lord, in His temporal ministry, was His dealings with the Roman Centurion who besought Him to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13)

First, this Centurion, this Roman Federal agent, was clearly a “believer,” even calling Jesus "Lord." It is clear from his response to Jesus that he possessed great faith in God. How did Jesus respond? Did He and His Disciples run him off, this representative of brutally oppressive Rome, angrily screaming, “You jack-booted imperialist Roman thug! You murderous, sword-happy butcher! Get out of my sight! How dare you ask me for anything!"

No, He commended him for his great faith. He held him up as an example against His own people. He didn't “pigeon-hole” him to dehumanize him. He healed his servant.

Then at another point, we read where the Pharisees tried to hobble and silence Jesus through coercion, intimidation, and fear of the governing authorities, that being Herod at the time. Jesus knew even the Federal law enforcement community couldn't do anything to oppose God's work and Will in His life-indeed, the same work in all our lives-until it was thoroughly accomplished. So, Jesus was somewhat blunt in His response to this silly “threat,” as it wasn't really a threat at all, and continued to operate in spite of the Federal presence.

Another powerful example of a servant of Christ dealing with an onerous law enforcement framework was Paul. Throughout the whole book of Acts and his ministry, Paul not only dealt effectively with the local and Federal law enforcement community, he thrived within it. Paul, at one time was a law enforcer, an officer representing a governing body, as we see recorded in the beginning of Acts 9 where he was given authority by the Jewish religious high command to bring any Christians he found, bound to Jerusalem (before the Lord “recruited” him on the road to Damascus). So it's true he might of had some pre-existing sympathy for the cops.

We read about one notable example of Paul in custody, the way he and Silas responded to it, and then the way Paul responded to the Phillipian jailer (Acts16: 25-30). If Paul had hated the cops, if he had an attitude of disrespect and contempt for them, he would surely have said nothing as this honorable jailer had committed suicide for his misguided belief he had let his prisoners escape. But Paul stopped him. Paul and Silas ended up witnessing to this, what would be a modern day “correctional officer,” and leading him and his house to the Lord. In Paul's mind, law enforcers were not enemies or people to be avoided and mistrusted, but people who he saw needed a real and dynamic relationship with the Lord, like everybody else.

Another example, in Acts 21, we see where Paul had found himself in the middle of a near riot situation as the Jews of the city were enraged at him. As they were in the process of pounding him into a bloody pulp, the local law enforcers strode in there, probably in full armor (riot gear) prepared for crowd control, and quite literally had to carry him out on their shoulders (Acts 21:33-35).

Was Paul glad to see the local cops? I'm sure he was! I'm sure he was quite gratified to see these law men muscling through the crowd, shouting commands and shoving people aside to get to him. I'm sure he realized after that, that the Lord had Providentially protected him through these law enforcers so that he could continue on with his ministry. It possibly could have been all over right there. But the Lord used the Feds to protect him.

Another example we see of Paul's attitude towards the Federal law enforcement community and, indeed, their established respect and trust of him, can be seen in the account of the shipwreck in Acts 27. Indeed, we read that the Centurion, Julius, in charge of the prisoners and before the departure, “... courteously entreated Paul, and gave him liberty to go unto his friends to refresh himself.” What a wonderful thing! How many Federal or Local cops would let a prisoner in custody do that?! The great trust between these people is undeniable.

As the journey by ship took place, we see that a great storm overtook them, yet with Paul's counsel, that encouragement being received from the “Angel of God,” they grounded the ship on the island of Melita. The soldiers in charge of the prisoners wanted to kill them, lest they escape, but the relationship Paul had established with the Centurion, the senior officer in charge, prevented that also.

When Paul finally made it to Rome, we see the Centurion “delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.” -- "Protective custody!" In the final chapter of Acts, we see that Paul's reputation, integrity, and his open relationship with the Roman Federal law enforcement community served him well, even for many years afterwards.

In light of clear scriptural precedent in dealing with the governing authorities, much of the material I read, and the attitudes I see on the part of people who claim to be Christians, is discouraging. True, in America, the trends are now overtly toward lawlessness. However, these trends are all transitory and fleeting temporal issues reflecting a fundamentally spiritual problem.

Christ spent his entire life in a region occupied by troops of a foreign conqueror. Hence, his message was delivered in an occupied country. Still, the gospel records indicate that he never gave the slightest support to any movement aimed at a military revolution that might bring national freedom.

Even as it was in Imperial Roman occupied Israel, so it is in America today. It's a matter of humility and repentance before God. A much quoted verse, to the point it has almost lost its meaning, says this,

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Yet many fail to see who this is directed at. Not the unbelievers, not the Liberals, not the anarchists and anti-authority types, not the atheists. The Lord is saying, “My people.”

The American culture is obsessed with salvation by politics. We as a corporate body cannot comprehend any other way of changing the culture. They do not understand that God changes cultures by the preaching of the Word. Nineveh's culture was not changed by Jonah getting elected king or arguing that Nineveh stop socialism or stealing from her citizens. It was changed when God ordered him to preach.

William Penn said, “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” Franklin Sanders once said, “So what is the answer? The only answer to every need of sinful humanity: the Gospel. The hearts of America must be changed, and the nation brought to obedience to God. All other changes, including gun-toting militias, are merely cosmetic.”

God hates compromise and fear, as these are traits imputed to simple unbelief. He also hates insubordination and contempt of lawful authority by His people. Note well His rebuke of King Saul,

I Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

Both Jesus and Paul recognized the primacy of the spiritual realm as the command sphere in their outreach to the world around them, the paramount fundamental purposes and work of the Father in their lives, and the rule of correction by the Sovereign Hand of God wrought through the oppressive Imperial Roman Army over their nation and stratum of influence. Yet, their relationship with the Local and Federal law enforcement community was not unfriendly nor antagonistic, but a mutually counterbalanced combination of Supremely ordained forces working to accomplish the Will of God in the world. As solid spiritual leaders, they operated in the midst, right out in front of God and everybody, in spite of the Roman Federal force.

Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints - nor even Jesus - are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

As I have laid out, the policy and precedent of Jesus and Paul concerning interaction with law enforcement, both Local and Federal, is pretty clear. The Lord used the Feds to Providentially protect His people, and His work, and saved Paul's' skin more than once. One day He may use them to save yours.

To extend this thinking, what if there are no civil authorities? Would the LORD not want decent Christians to stand for what's right and do their best to maintain authority, even if it means using the sword (or gun) to do so? I think it's a reasonable extension of logic to assume the LORD would indeed want Christians to maintain order and law in a lawless situation (using force if necessary).

Primarily in the spiritual realm, a servant of Christ is a "type" of Police officer in the community, upholding God's Law which militate against the immorality and hedonism which can so easily overwhelm a society-lawlessness and anarchy. Even as a Police officer upholds the "law of the land," a follower of Christ, if he is faithful to God and His Word, upholds and defends God's Law contained therein. To be the "standard" against lawlessness, to protect the weak, to uphold the law, to "resist evil." That's the job and calling that they have been tasked with as well as what society expects of them. Opposing evil, standing against lawlessness and anarchy, is the very core of their vocation. That's the duty of carrying that badge. Our calling is to stand in opposition to the forces of darkness as well. Therefore, followers of Christ can proudly say they are an "officer of The Law" as well.

There are few civilians with the understanding, experience, and insight to possess the qualifications to understand fully, modern day Police work, let alone the unique dynamics and peculiar practices which entail the same. Most people, as civilians, view their local law enforcement officer with a bit of mystery and bewilderment, not having a clue as to what these people have to endure every day, the training they have to go through, the demands that are made on them through the whole chain of command.

Now concerning Jesus Christ's assembly, does "the world" understand His assembly and His ways? Is "the world" qualified to comment on spiritual things and the duties of Jesus Christ's assembly? Of course not. The Scripture clearly states: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). Post modernist, humanist, and secular thinkers view most religion as "superstitious" and "regressive," even "stone-age."

The bottom line is, just as the only people qualified to police a modern day professional law enforcement agency are other professionals (their peers), so, too, the only people qualified to effectively police Jesus Christ's assembly are other spiritual leaders in Jesus Christ's assembly.