Sinning never ends

[ABlessedMan]

You are doing what you are accusing me of.

Nah. I'm using scripture. You are strawmanning -- taking a point in scripture and then making up a possible doctrine around it to define reality. Instead, there are times to say: scripture doesn't cover this. But in this case, it does.

The one place where you *are* right here, is that I quoted scripture about death being destoryed and made a "leap of faith" (can we say strawman?) that sin must therefore also go with it.

If both the wicked and righteous live for eternity, who enters 'death' as in dies, as in ceases to exist?

Since nobody 'dies', death and life had different meanings in scripture. Adam and Eve entered death when they left Eden, as scripture says ''if you eat the forbidden fruit you will die''. Die = cast out of Eden. Life = Restored back into Eden / God's presence.

When Eve was told she would die, it meant separation from God -- not separation from Eden. Once separated from God, we need repentance and to pay a price to be reinstated. We repent; Jesus paid the price. Eden is not God's presence. Eden is a created place. It is also called Paradise. And when Jesus died on the cross, Paradise was NOT in heaven. Jesus did not die and ascend to heaven. He descended first and preached to the spirits in prison. For three days. Then he was resurrected. Later he ascended back to heaven. Remember what he said to Mary AFTER he rose from the dead: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;"

To your first point, you are right. Revelation 22:15 (long after the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire, we have "outside [the New Jerusalem] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Gives new life to the discussions of Sheol and Gehenna.

Understanding what death is, yes, we are forever with God in heaven. There is no enforcement of the punishment of sin.

The enforcement is the separation from God. The righteous have access to God: Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." But there are those outside the gates who may not enter.

That is the same point I am making. Both now and in heaven. Heb 10:14 is crystal clear.

Agreed, but you are extending it to eternity. Does anything change? Even Hebrew 8:13 says that the Old Covenant is going to vanish away.

Well, you are just moving the goal posts now. What is your definition of sin?

No, my goal post is the scripture. I've done nothing but quote scripture as the basis for what I am saying.

Sin: opposition to God's Law. (Thus opposition to God.)

I have argued from post one that as Heb 10:14 makes clear, we still '''''sin'''''' but to God it is not ''''sin'''' as we are covered by the blood of Jesus. It all depends on how you define sin. I explain this in my OP.

Well, this is clearly stated in 1 John 3 (esp. v8-9). But you have extended it into eternity, and asked if a believer - who is covered in Jesus' blood and 1 John 3 says cannot sin - can sin. Obviously the believer can not.

Agreed. We make mistakes of sin. Christianity 101.

Yes. Romans 7. We will commit sin, but that sin is no longer imputed to us. That's the whole point -- Jesus took it. He paid the price once and for all.

Yes and you and I will never be as holy and righteous as God. As Jesus says, only He is good Mark 10:18. We will forever be going from glory to glory.

Now if we are not 'perfectly' good like God, what does that mean? It means that we continue to be imperfect. Perfect TO God, but never ever perfect LIKE God.

I certainly didn't say we would be as righteous as God. Not sure if you level this at my arguement (in which case, a strawman), or if this is a general statement to others you heard such tripe from. We will never be perfectly righteous. We are robed in Jesus righteousness, coverd by his blood. But as 1 John 3 tells us, we cannot sin. God will NEVER impute our sins to us, for Jesus paid the price.

Agreed, but you are dancing around my statements.

No dance. I may be reiterating what we agree on. I may be restating things because I want to confirm what you say (but don't like the way you said it .

_______________________________________

Please can I ask that you quote my posts. I feel like you have not addressed my arguments raised.

Is this for me? I always quote who I'm responding to. Been in these forums for far too long - I've learned at least that. Or is this your new signature?

 

[KingJ]

Nah. I'm using scripture. You are strawmanning -- taking a point in scripture and then making up a possible doctrine around it to define reality. Instead, there are times to say: scripture doesn't cover this. But in this case, it does.

The one place where you *are* right here, is that I quoted scripture about death being destoryed and made a "leap of faith" (can we say strawman?) that sin must therefore also go with it.

When Eve was told she would die, it meant separation from God -- not separation from Eden. Once separated from God, we need repentance and to pay a price to be reinstated. We repent; Jesus paid the price. Eden is not God's presence. Eden is a created place. It is also called Paradise. And when Jesus died on the cross, Paradise was NOT in heaven. Jesus did not die and ascend to heaven. He descended first and preached to the spirits in prison. For three days. Then he was resurrected. Later he ascended back to heaven. Remember what he said to Mary AFTER he rose from the dead: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;"

To your first point, you are right. Revelation 22:15 (long after the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire, we have "outside [the New Jerusalem] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Gives new life to the discussions of Sheol and Gehenna.

The enforcement is the separation from God. The righteous have access to God: Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city." But there are those outside the gates who may not enter.

Agreed, but you are extending it to eternity. Does anything change? Even Hebrew 8:13 says that the Old Covenant is going to vanish away.

No, my goal post is the scripture. I've done nothing but quote scripture as the basis for what I am saying.

Sin: opposition to God's Law. (Thus opposition to God.)


Well, this is clearly stated in 1 John 3 (esp. v8-9). But you have extended it into eternity, and asked if a believer - who is covered in Jesus' blood and 1 John 3 says cannot sin - can sin. Obviously the believer can not.


Yes. Romans 7. We will commit sin, but that sin is no longer imputed to us. That's the whole point -- Jesus took it. He paid the price once and for all.


I certainly didn't say we would be as righteous as God. Not sure if you level this at my arguement (in which case, a strawman), or if this is a general statement to others you heard such tripe from. We will never be perfectly righteous. We are robed in Jesus righteousness, coverd by his blood. But as 1 John 3 tells us, we cannot sin. God will NEVER impute our sins to us, for Jesus paid the price.


No dance. I may be reiterating what we agree on. I may be restating things because I want to confirm what you say (but don't like the way you said it .

I can agree with all you have said. To discuss each line I feel would be unnecessary.

Our disagreement comes down to the definition of sin and how we achieve free will in heaven.

You state we cannot sin. You state sin is opposition to God's law.

I want you to explain to me how you believe we achieve free will in heaven and for all eternity. Or if you believe free will is an illusion and we will forever be slaves under a dictator with an inability to '''oppose any law / instruction from Him / IE sin''.

Unless your line '''We will commit sin, but that sin is no longer imputed to us. That's the whole point -- Jesus took it. '' applies to heaven too. Then we are in full agreement.

Is this for me? I always quote who I'm responding to. Been in these forums for far too long - I've learned at least that. Or is this your new signature?

You did not quote in your prior reply .

 

[ABlessedMan]

I can agree with all you have said. To discuss each line I feel would be unnecessary.

Our disagreement comes down to the definition of sin and how we achieve free will in heaven.

You state we cannot sin. You state sin is opposition to God's law.

The scripture states "we cannot sin" if we are born of God. 1 John 3:9

Sin is harder in many ways. As you know, there are many lists of specific sins. Offense against your neighbor is sin. But it is known by us what sin is internally; why?

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse.

We were made to know right from wrong, sin from righteous acts. It has been written within us.

And especially for us, non-Israel, the Gentile (I make assumptions about you, sir):

Romans 2:14-16
14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

You see, the Gentiles were never under the law. Ever. They know things by the very nature within them the things requied by God's Law. And so we are of no excuse. We were the first who had God's Laws written in our hearts. For Israel, that day will come. (Heb 8:10+) (Important note for those who have been taught wrongly: the Church is not Israel; Israel is not the Church -- Romans 11 makes this vitally clear.)

So, that's my long story on "the definition of sin" that you asked for.

Free will is an obvious trait that we have been given, that the Calvinist wants to sweep away in regards to salvation and relegate it to normal, everyday actions such as evangelizing. It was explained to me by a Reformed friend of mine as this: an individual who is floating in a river of water. The river (predetermination) will lead you wherever God desired you to go, but in your local area of water you have free will to swim around and interact with anyone else who is swimming there. The river (predetermination) will keep you from the shore and will take you where it will.

I believe through what scripture tells me, that when we go to heaven we will be changed in the blink of an eye, our carnal man will be stripped from us to be no more, and our spirit man -- which is us -- will live forever more. Thus in heaven, with no carnality, we will have no desire to go against God's Will. Not puppetry, but a pure desire to be righteous. If you have a problem with that thought, then you certainly must have a problem with the fact that God made us, created us to be evil and do evil deeds, like filthy rags, unable to do good until he breathes true Life into us. (Lest hypocrisy should set in, we need to look at both sides.)

I want you to explain to me how you believe we achieve free will in heaven and for all eternity. Or if you believe free will is an illusion and we will forever be slaves under a dictator with an inability to '''oppose any law / instruction from Him / IE sin''.

Oops, got ahead of myself. See above.

Unless your line '''We will commit sin, but that sin is no longer imputed to us. That's the whole point -- Jesus took it. '' applies to heaven too. Then we are in full agreement.

We definitely will not have sin imputed to us once we are washed in Jesus blood and he has forever taken our sin and paid the price. *IF* we can sin in heaven, then this covers that too -- past, present and future, through all eternity). I believe, as I stated above ("changed in the blink of an eye") that we will have no carnal nature, and therefore no desire to sin. We will walk on a sanctified, righteous path of God's Laws at all times.

You did not quote in your prior reply .

Could you point to the post #. I don't see it. My normal manner is to hit the "reply" button to speak back, and that automatically gives me the quote of the posters text. I don't see how I could get around it. But everything is possible, I guess.