KingJ
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Scripture?
Assumption
Assumption
Sinning never ends
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Scripture?
Assumption
Assumption
KingJ
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If you want to debunk someone, explain why the verses they are using are being misread. To this post only one hast taken a stab at that and failed miserably.
A servant of the Kings
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If the truth was ugly and horrible, it may have made sense to fight about how to get away from it.
But the truth is very beautiful, the truth is Love: 7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
The truth is Light: 5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all
It is only God that is good, and He is light, heaven is His light,
Jesus is in Him, and we are in Jesus
20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.
I know it I have seen in heaven with the eye that can see the light
22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
It is not an attack on you, it is testimony about immense beauty
It is a message of joy
That we are replaced and become the light is mentioned for example here:
7Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,
I am not here to pick a fight, I am here to testify about immense beauty, a land of Love, without darkness
That God in His goodness has given us an eye to see
It is a message of Joy
Praise the Lord, rejoice
But the truth is very beautiful, the truth is Love: 7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
The truth is Light: 5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all
It is only God that is good, and He is light, heaven is His light,
Jesus is in Him, and we are in Jesus
20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.
I know it I have seen in heaven with the eye that can see the light
22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light.
It is not an attack on you, it is testimony about immense beauty
It is a message of joy
That we are replaced and become the light is mentioned for example here:
7Therefore do not be partakers with them. 8For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light,
I am not here to pick a fight, I am here to testify about immense beauty, a land of Love, without darkness
That God in His goodness has given us an eye to see
It is a message of Joy
Praise the Lord, rejoice
KingJ
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I can see what you are saying, but my friend you are speaking as though you have not read the OP.
Heb 10:14 makes clear the fact that we are made perfect to God 'BY' Jesus and we will go from glory to glory now and in heaven.
Walking in the light, children of God = repenting of our sins. Not being '''''perfect'''' and never sinning. Only God can live for all eternity and not sin.
If anyone disagrees with me, they do not understand what sin is. My OP explains this.
A servant of the Kings
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Yes it is true that we are perfect when we are part of the body of Christ, when we know it and act it
However the body of Christ is light in the Lord: 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.
As soon as we act according to our own minds, according to our own flesh, we are not the body of Christ on earth. Then we are again darkness.
The light of Christ is within the Holy Temple of God within us, God gave us an eye to see the light:
21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!…
So I have been saying all along, like you write that humans are not perfect, humans do sin, if we say we are pure we are lying: 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
But kindly for your own sake, do not claim that the Holy Temple of God is dirty, not when the seven lamps before the throne shines in His white light.
Do not go there, I warn you, The Temple of God is Holy.
He is the truth within us: 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.…
Dave M
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the bible explains it
no need for you to try to explain it
James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
KingJ
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Thanks for sharing Dave. Brilliant verse.
100% agreement with that. My OP provides context on that verse.
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Now, all you need to do is ask yourself, if in heaven, God asks you to do something and you don't. Is that a sin?
Knowing full well that God is perfectly good and righteous in all His ways to the exclusion of none.
The answer is a definite Yes!!!! Now, ask yourself, is God truly good and righteous in all His ways if He expects us to obey His every command? Surely that is robbing us of free will. Being in heaven would be a curse if that is true.
KingJ
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Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
We don't only sin because we are in the flesh. Angels in heaven have shown that even in the spirit you can sin. The only relevance of the 'flesh' is that it is weak and more prone to sin.
We are also not in the 'darkness' if we make 'mistakes' of sin. Children of the light hate what is evil and are fast to repent of their sins. They cling to what is good Rom 12:9. This is a 'live' occurrence.
You are over complicating the matter and stuck on ''us in Jesus in God''. The context is simply that we are grafted into the family of God. We are adopted sons and daughters. You need to think rationally. Think of your own family. It is said that a parent will always love their children no matter what they do. Blood is thicker then water. This is true. A Child will always be welcome in their parents house.
Becoming a child of God is not a Mickey Mouse event. It takes sincerity and dedication that is at a depth of intent toward God. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
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Let me turn the tables. If one-day in heaven God gives one child a cherry sucker and not you, will you be upset with God? You should never ever be upset with God as He lay His life down on the cross for you. There is no greater act of love possible!!!! John 15:13.
We will always be welcome in His house and perfect in His eyes because we are the bride of Christ. His children.
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Another fact to consider. Jesus says only adultery is grounds for divorce Matt 5:32. That is due to the fact that the depth of intent required to get married outweighs every other sin / incident / annoyance we experience. It is an inevitability that two who are able to marry each other ''come back'' to each other after a fight or disagreement. It is all about ''depth'' of intent.
Now, sadly, many Christians do simply not grasp ''depth'' of intent. They think they are Christians because they say magical words. They think are Christians because they are in the right religion. No wonder many cannot grasp perfection even though there are 'venial' mistakes.
To rob us of our ability to make 'venial' mistakes would be to take away our free will. No free will = Evil God. God is 'not' evil. As you have quoted correctly ''He is light with NO darkness in Him at ALL'' 1 John 1:5
A servant of the Kings
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Being a prophets, God has blessed me with eye sight, and has indeed allowed me to see in heaven, experience of the heavens.
I will advice you to be careful, and not to teach what you do not know. It is no allegory that we are in Christ, who is in Father, that is the absolute truth, and it is obvious as soon as we are allowed to see in heaven, in the light of God.
There we are light in the Lord
We are light, just as the Lord is light
It does not mean we are the Lord
Like drops of water is part of the ocean,
Is water, just like the ocean is water
But is not the ocean
As for becoming a "christian", it is not the word I have been taught by God to call myself
I have been taught to call myself a son of God
A son of God, is someone who has become a lost son that returned to Father
We will become that as soon as we have repented all the way to the bottom of the pile
and have reached the sin of Adam, then asked and received the aid of God to destroy it
At that point we are allowed back, to experience the Kingdom of God
God does not want to expel anyone
But as long as the sin of Adam is there, that man is not allowed as it is written.
When we are allowed we can see in the light of God
with the eye that can see the light of God
Where the light of God is, heaven is.
As for the marriage
A child of light is not married to flesh
A child of light is married to another child of light of the opposite sex in the body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 11:11
"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."
When we can see in the Lord we can confirm that this is true and testify about it to others
That is the marriage arranged by the King for His Son,
The marriage of two to become one
What people call a marriage on earth is a totally different thing
as is the union of bodies of flesh.
People that has not seen in the body of Christ has a hard time believing what it is like there
But I will testify before God that what is written is true:
1 Corinthians 11:11
"Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."
KingJ
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A prophet who can see into heaven? Ok we are done. Good bye.
A servant of the Kings
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watertolive
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And yet brother Paul had no woman.
And I hear the Word, a woman who has a husband seeks to please her husband.
Yet an unmarried woman seeks to please her Lord.
I will continue to seek and be pleasing to my Lord.
Bless God, by blessing others.
watertolive
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We can only testify to what (self) have seen, heard and felt; our own testimonies.
I can not testify for others; it becomes hear say.
A servant of the Kings
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Well no woman in the flesh, it is not needed to have a relationship in the flesh
In fact in may often times get in the way of serving God Paul is correct
But Paul indeed had women in the body of Christ
There in the body of Christ Father likes to make couples of such a woman
and such a man that has success in studying the bible together
Cause in heaven for a man to give word from God on earth
looks like giving light from God to her
That is why it is written:
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.…
It is no sin to have love affairs with many women in the body of Christ for a man
or many men for a woman in the body of Christ
On earth it just means they are having success in studying the bible together for example
since that is an occasion when they will share the word of God
and may make progress together reaching for God together
Love in Christ is very welcomed by God, and is not limited to one partner
It is not a marriage in any earthly way
But we are all married into the body of Christ that way
It is the marriage arranged by the King for His son
The marriage of 2 to become one
(The marriage of man and woman to become one with the Son
Who was before man and woman, He Who is in the image of God)
watertolive
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Only Christ can sanctify and cleanse our temple body; no man; Christ alone.
Bless God first, by blessing others.
A servant of the Kings
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Yes what you write is true, the words must come from God
It is the joyful duty of a "husband in Christ" a man married into the body of Christ to give word from God to "brides in Christ".
Thus it is written: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.…
Women may in that way get pregnant with the word, cause the word is fertile, not dead. It is the living God given to her. Together sisters and brothers are the body of Christ.
If she Loves Jesus she will welcome His word, she will know his word when she hears it, with her heart that loves Christ, in heaven the word of God is light, and chosen ladies will give birth to children of light. Those children are very highly loved/ valued by our Father in heaven. The chosen ladies are very much loved, To see the chosen ladies a man must be able to see with the eye that can see the light, and must be allowed to see in heaven, it is written about the chosen ladies here:
1The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth— and not I alone, but also all who know the truth— 2because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:…
Kindly do not mix things up, it is not the same as in the flesh.
The unions in heaven, are like explosions of Love stronger than what anyone experienced on earth, the unions are unions between children of light, all is the light of God there, on earth the light of God is the word of God, in heaven the word is the Light of God. There is no flesh there at all, only light, that light is Love.
God will rule all Light, and He is the one Who decides, even though it seems automatic, like if man is one and women are another kind of atom united together into molekules, like if there was a magnet uniting all that shall be united to become One with God, all humanity is One, united in Christ, the Son in the image of God.
He is the truth
The unions are explosions of love that replaces all else, they are a fulfillment of the first and second commandment, all is replaced, replaced with Love, all our heart mind and souls is no more ours, but replaced with Love, not of flesh, but of light, the Love of the Light that God is.
That is why it may be very Holy, and a great good, what goes on in an ordinary church on earth, if the true word of God is shared there, if the true teachings of Jesus are shared there, in heaven it will look like great explosions of Love.
And new children of light may result from the explosions, Children that Our Father in heaven Love very much.
Women should thus not see it as an inferior role to receive the word from a man, cause what she gives back to God is greatly appreciated by God.
Examples of chosen ladies in the bible, that gave birth to many children of light was for example the woman by the well, she knew in her heart who Jesus was, and testified about it, so that many came to faith.
Mary Magdalene is another woman that is a chosen lady of the bible, she recognized Jesus when He was resurrected before the men, and bravely testified about it, and stood for her testimony. That is giving birth to many children of light. Jesus has told me it is because the great love for Jesus that chosen ladies has in their heart that they know before men.
Those are great deeds for the Kingdom of God, all who knows the truth knows the chosen ladies and their babies.
May there be no infighting between sisters and brothers in Christ, functions are different but both functions are very important, and glorified by God. To multiply the children of light is a great mission. The body of Christ on earth can do it together cooperating in Love.
It is the joyful duty of a "husband in Christ" a man married into the body of Christ to give word from God to "brides in Christ".
Thus it is written: 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.…
Women may in that way get pregnant with the word, cause the word is fertile, not dead. It is the living God given to her. Together sisters and brothers are the body of Christ.
If she Loves Jesus she will welcome His word, she will know his word when she hears it, with her heart that loves Christ, in heaven the word of God is light, and chosen ladies will give birth to children of light. Those children are very highly loved/ valued by our Father in heaven. The chosen ladies are very much loved, To see the chosen ladies a man must be able to see with the eye that can see the light, and must be allowed to see in heaven, it is written about the chosen ladies here:
1The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth— and not I alone, but also all who know the truth— 2because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:…
Kindly do not mix things up, it is not the same as in the flesh.
The unions in heaven, are like explosions of Love stronger than what anyone experienced on earth, the unions are unions between children of light, all is the light of God there, on earth the light of God is the word of God, in heaven the word is the Light of God. There is no flesh there at all, only light, that light is Love.
God will rule all Light, and He is the one Who decides, even though it seems automatic, like if man is one and women are another kind of atom united together into molekules, like if there was a magnet uniting all that shall be united to become One with God, all humanity is One, united in Christ, the Son in the image of God.
He is the truth
The unions are explosions of love that replaces all else, they are a fulfillment of the first and second commandment, all is replaced, replaced with Love, all our heart mind and souls is no more ours, but replaced with Love, not of flesh, but of light, the Love of the Light that God is.
That is why it may be very Holy, and a great good, what goes on in an ordinary church on earth, if the true word of God is shared there, if the true teachings of Jesus are shared there, in heaven it will look like great explosions of Love.
And new children of light may result from the explosions, Children that Our Father in heaven Love very much.
Women should thus not see it as an inferior role to receive the word from a man, cause what she gives back to God is greatly appreciated by God.
Examples of chosen ladies in the bible, that gave birth to many children of light was for example the woman by the well, she knew in her heart who Jesus was, and testified about it, so that many came to faith.
Mary Magdalene is another woman that is a chosen lady of the bible, she recognized Jesus when He was resurrected before the men, and bravely testified about it, and stood for her testimony. That is giving birth to many children of light. Jesus has told me it is because the great love for Jesus that chosen ladies has in their heart that they know before men.
Those are great deeds for the Kingdom of God, all who knows the truth knows the chosen ladies and their babies.
May there be no infighting between sisters and brothers in Christ, functions are different but both functions are very important, and glorified by God. To multiply the children of light is a great mission. The body of Christ on earth can do it together cooperating in Love.
ABlessedMan
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Wow. 2 years of this discussion? Don't know where to jump in.
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
So if you sin in heaven, you've never seen him nor known him.
Kind of an oxymoron, isn't it?
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To a point in your OP.... There is no moral sin. The word nor the concept can be found taught in scripture.
You bring up degrees of sin, which I don't counter, per se. But give those degrees numbers, let's say 1 (least) to 100 (your mortal). At which number can I be found in sin but still qualify to make it to heaven (assuming no acceptance of Jesus)?
So I rest the case that sin is sin.
(We could also ask at which number and below is Jesus' blood effective at washing away and saving us?)
If you made it to heaven, you are washed in the blood.. This is where 1 John 3:6, 9 applies:
6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
So if you sin in heaven, you've never seen him nor known him.
Kind of an oxymoron, isn't it?
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To a point in your OP.... There is no moral sin. The word nor the concept can be found taught in scripture.
You bring up degrees of sin, which I don't counter, per se. But give those degrees numbers, let's say 1 (least) to 100 (your mortal). At which number can I be found in sin but still qualify to make it to heaven (assuming no acceptance of Jesus)?
So I rest the case that sin is sin.
(We could also ask at which number and below is Jesus' blood effective at washing away and saving us?)
KingJ
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@ABlessedMan Very good questions. I want to firstly clearly state that this thread is based on a hypothesis. I am not stating with certainty that there will be sin in heaven. MY OP starts with 'case for'.
We abide in Jesus right now and yet we still sin. Rom 7:15 What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.
As such, there is a truth to 'being in Jesus' that is flying over many heads. When we are saved, we are grafted into the family of God. We are children of God. Loving children can do no wrong to their father. Everything they do is sanctified. Thanks to Jesus.
This does not mean we no longer ''''sin''''. It just means we are made perfect to God by the blood of Jesus and will continue to go from glory to glory, as Heb 10:14 clearly explains.
The theory is that salvation takes place a depth of intent that surpasses the intent for any sin. Making sins more 'mistakes' as opposed to acts of hatred.
If you read John 15:13 you will see that laying your life down is the greatest act of love you can perform.
Example:
You and I are in the army. Before and during your stay in the army, I bully and harass you. But then, we go into battle and I take a bullet for you. Saving your life and losing mine. In the hereafter, when you see me, will you welcome me into your house? What if I continue to be annoying and commit venial sins?
Many do just not grasp what it takes to become a Christian.
We have a 10/10 bond with God as He has shown us His love when He died on the cross, for us. Likewise, when we get saved an equal depth is required. As I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
We abide in Jesus right now and yet we still sin. Rom 7:15 What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate.
As such, there is a truth to 'being in Jesus' that is flying over many heads. When we are saved, we are grafted into the family of God. We are children of God. Loving children can do no wrong to their father. Everything they do is sanctified. Thanks to Jesus.
This does not mean we no longer ''''sin''''. It just means we are made perfect to God by the blood of Jesus and will continue to go from glory to glory, as Heb 10:14 clearly explains.
The theory is that salvation takes place a depth of intent that surpasses the intent for any sin. Making sins more 'mistakes' as opposed to acts of hatred.
If you read John 15:13 you will see that laying your life down is the greatest act of love you can perform.
Example:
You and I are in the army. Before and during your stay in the army, I bully and harass you. But then, we go into battle and I take a bullet for you. Saving your life and losing mine. In the hereafter, when you see me, will you welcome me into your house? What if I continue to be annoying and commit venial sins?
Many do just not grasp what it takes to become a Christian.
We have a 10/10 bond with God as He has shown us His love when He died on the cross, for us. Likewise, when we get saved an equal depth is required. As I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
ABlessedMan
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You're going a long way to say things that are not directly in the verses you quote. They perhaps are inferred, so what you say isn't wrong, per se.
Look:
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
To have sin, you must have a payment for that sin: death. Otherwise, you must show me where God changes. My bible says he "changeth not."
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Death will be gone, kaput, by the time you are in heaven. And if death is destroyed, then the wages of sin is gone. They are the ugly sisters; they go hand in hand. (Unless, again, you can show that God changes.)
Romans 7 is a great chapter on the dichotomy of our old man and our new man -- the fact that we can be saved and still sin here on earth. What Paul is pointing out here is that while our old, carnal man will commit sins, that is not our spirit man. This is not held against us because Jesus' blood has washed us clean. We can see this in 1 John:
1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
"Whoever is born of God does not sin." Period. "He who sins is of the devil." Period.
But we all sin, do we not? We commit sins, yes. We do not practice sins, because we would be convicted to turn away from our sins via sanctification by the Holy Spirit who indwells you. And you are not your own, you are God's (1 Cor 6:19).
But between now and eternity, you are going through sanctification: the moving from now to righteousness. You are being made righteous.
Romans 5:18
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Does rightousness know sin? Sin leads to death. Does righteousness ever lead to death? No, it doesn't.
KingJ
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You are doing what you are accusing me of.
If both the wicked and righteous live for eternity, who enters 'death' as in dies, as in ceases to exist?
Since nobody 'dies', death and life had different meanings in scripture. Adam and Eve entered death when they left Eden, as scripture says ''if you eat the forbidden fruit you will die''. Die = cast out of Eden. Life = Restored back into Eden / God's presence.
Understanding what death is, yes, we are forever with God in heaven. There is no enforcement of the punishment of sin.
That is the same point I am making. Both now and in heaven. Heb 10:14 is crystal clear.
Well, you are just moving the goal posts now. What is your definition of sin?
I have argued from post one that as Heb 10:14 makes clear, we still '''''sin'''''' but to God it is not ''''sin'''' as we are covered by the blood of Jesus. It all depends on how you define sin. I explain this in my OP.
Agreed. We make mistakes of sin. Christianity 101.
Yes and you and I will never be as holy and righteous as God. As Jesus says, only He is good Mark 10:18. We will forever be going from glory to glory.
Now if we are not 'perfectly' good like God, what does that mean? It means that we continue to be imperfect. Perfect TO God, but never ever perfect LIKE God.
Agreed, but you are dancing around my statements.
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Please can I ask that you quote my posts. I feel like you have not addressed my arguments raised.
