So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

[KingJ]

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of these individuals are necessary bad people. Anyone striving to be a Christian is a good person. The better people you will meet in society. But for crying out aloud, scripture is so clear and simple on the topic. There is no need to stumble yourself, others and misrepresent God.

The following beliefs are terrible!

A - When we teach that Judas was a Christian, we are teaching that God is a fool that would wash clean in His blood someone who would betray Him. This is absolute nonsense! God is not a fool!

B - When we teach that a Christian can lose their salvation in year 50 of servitude, we imply that God is unjust and evil. The thief next to Jesus on the cross had no servitude and went to paradise. A Christian who does the same (accepts Jesus) and then gives servitude of 49 years, can according to some go off into eternal hell. This is absolute nonsense! God is not unjust and evil!

C - When we teach that God cherry picks people for heaven, this implies partiality. Favouritism. Respecter of persons. No accountability on our part. Every verse in scripture outside of Rom 9:21 has flown over their heads. This implies God is unjust and evil. God is not unjust and evil!

God is NOT a fool. He does not graft a demon into heaven and make a mistake in kicking one out. He is able to search the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-12. We are fools that can think we are saved. And that is the only space that anti-OSAS believers should operate in. The only reason for verses like Phil 2:12 and 1 Cor 10:12. God is certainly not the fool. Every prophet that knew God better then you are I, said that God is good Psalm 136:1, just Job 34:12, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 and no respecter of persons Acts 10:34.

In fact, Job says it should be unthinkable that God pervert justice or do what is wicked Job 34:12!!! Unthinkable!!!

And yet we have Christians that propose the unthinkable! It is truly unbelievable!

Section 2 - So, what is a Christian?

A Christian is someone who has been washed clean of their sin by the blood of Jesus Heb 9:14 and are grafted into the family of God Rom 11:11-24. They can now call God their Father Rom 8:15-17!

For this to happen, we have to pass a session of God's righteous judgement Jer 17:9-12. Open the door to Jesus so to speak Rev 3:20.

God judges the depths of our hearts and minds for sincerity. in either of the following:

A - Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17
B - Servitude James 1:27
C - Martyrdom Rev 2:10

If we pass, we are washed clean of our sins by the blood of Jesus 1 John 1:7-9 and grafted into the family of God Rom 11:11-24. Given the faith to believe Rom 12:3 that Jesus was not merely a man, but Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

So, now we need to ask questions like the following:

1. Would Judas have betrayed Jesus if he was resurrected to life after dying as a martyr? I think NOT!!!
2. Would you send to eternal prison someone who committed venial sins in your house in year 50 of their servitude, after they took a bullet for you? I think NOT!!!
3. Would God cherry pick for heaven someone who from free will cannot pass judgement on sincerity in A,B or C? I think NOT!!!!

We may still make mistakes of sin as Paul alludes to in Rom 7:15. But make no mistake, sinning is no longer in our nature Rom 6:6. It is against our nature. A Christian will hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9.

Section 3 - Conclusion:

Christianity is a deep and permanent bond between a Creator and His creation. A bond at the maximum depth of intent. There is a 10/10 commitment from humans to God and a 10/10 commitment from God to humans. Fully adopted sons and daughters of God Rom 8:15-17. Family in a blood covenant with God Luke 22:20.

John 15:13 is clear that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down. God expects nothing less! Matt 16:24. As He gave us nothing less! John 3:16.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me''.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Being a Christian is a great honour. A creation forever bonded to the Creator of all.

 

[MedicBravo]

I understand. It's frustrating and I'm sure at some point you know that should these "lukewarm/fake Christians don't realize and change" they'll be in the same boat as the non-Christians.

On Judas. In inference, I think the odds of Judas was showing that betrayal comes from those closest to us. His ministry was only 3-ish years but in that time became so close to the 12.
IDK about anyone else but I don't label someone a friend easily.
I've been betrayed twice by two people and once was my ex-wife; 2 dating and 7 married.

It's not easy being a Christian in a world where we are the minority. Given prophesy, things are going to get worse for us. If Jesus spent 3-ish hours on the cross going through untold torture, pain, and emotional pain we can and should for Him.

What is "good"? Humans can't define "good" for humanity. No person shows 100% of himself/herself to anyone. Only God knows who a person truly is.

(a). No. Judas WAS a Christian and like any, can fall into sin so bad that's what he did. Many have left the Church and openly boast this while mocking God and us. If a non-Christian believe as you state they are wrong and must be corrected.

(b). Who's teaching that? Jesus died once and for all but a person can REJECT salvation. It affords no one the idea they can "sin freely" b/c the are saved in this. Change must happen.

(c). God knows who truly has accepted them and those who have not. If you wanna call it "cherry picking" fine but the Creator can. God is only an arm's reach from every person and it is on them to reach out for Him. If they don't...that's on them.

God's way of doing things is Just, Right, Moral, Ethical, and Fair.
People largely misunderstand much of God and the Bible b/c they weren't taught right or read/heard something and didn't ask questions.

There's a popular "What if" that if Jesus came today how would humanity treat him? Most, some Christians included would treat him the same as the Jews did.

I don't entertain What if's that didn't happen but I'll do my best.
1. As we read, we see that Judas is so overcome with guilty he tries to "repent" not to God but to the Jewish leaders in that area. He threw the money at their feet and they called it "blood money". He ran and hung himself. He did it during the 3 days before Jesus rose again but likely not long after Jesus died.
2. I'm not in that position and last I checked the only real Christian place is the Vatican. They have armed guards and it surrounded by a wall. It's too far away for me or anyone here to make an accurate statement on how it handles criminals in its territory.
3. You're asking the wrong people. Again, if God does "cherry pick" it is those things listed above and one's opinion otherwise is irrelevant.

It is in us just we should sin-less.
I HATE who I used to be before I became a Christian. Knowing what I do as a Christian and my life after, I could not return to being that but those same sins are ever present and I can and have done them at times. I've failed and fallen yet I get back up each time and strive to do better.
It's part of character growth.

What is the solution to all this?
We (humans) get the best experience in person. How would any group of us here meet offline?
Given who owns and runs the internet, I'm not going to give up my personal info online so easily.

IMO:
1. Start at the local level at one's church. Try to get a like-minded group of people. Establish a hierarchy, rules, and mission statement.
2. Branch out to other local churches and advise them in the same.
3. Establish and grow a strong foothold in this area focusing on bettering oneself and bringing God to one's local community.

*No matter how loud we are, God will move on them in His own way. If we don't get some people one day we might another. Realistically, it might be someone else or another church that gets to them.

 

[B-A-C]

A - When we teach that Judas was a Christian, we are teaching that God is a fool that would wash clean in His blood someone who would betray Him. This is absolute nonsense! God is not a fool!

This always goes back to predestination. God won't save someone if He knows they aren't going to stay saved?
God is a fool for giving someone a chance?

Posts like this are why people don't know what a Christian is.

On one hand some say "God doesn't play favorites and pick some to be saved, and others not to be saved".
But then they turn around and say..
"God won't save anyone who doesn't stay saved". In other words He's picking some not to be saved.

How far do we go down this road? Why does He even create some people if He knows they won't be saved?

Jesus died for all, the entire world. He's not a fool if people choose not to stay with Him.

I think people who try to judge what makes God a fool are in for a serious reckoning one day.

 

[MedicBravo]

This always goes back to predestination. God won't save someone if He knows they aren't going to stay saved?
God is a fool for giving someone a chance?

Posts like this are why people don't know what a Christian is.

Again, no person can give the correct answer.
In anything we can use inference to "get the most reasonable answer" to anything.

You know everyone is NOT going to Heaven. People you care about and even random people you interact with online.
Even studying the Bible and secular information to back it while trying to be like Jesus the best you can, people are STILL going to spit at and mock you for being for God.

I can assure you had God not saved me, the person I was would have only gotten WORSE. I'm not going to lengthen this by my testimony.
False converts are called out in the Bible and that won't change either.

Heaven rejoices at every soul that accepts Jesus into their lives. They know who is sincere in this and those who are not.

 

[Rhema]

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

(Matthew 5:43-48 KJV)

Perhaps God loves Judas.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Now, none of these individuals are necessary bad people. Anyone striving to be a Christian is a good person.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: ​

(Matthew 19:16-17 KJV)

 

[KingJ]

This always goes back to predestination.

This line ''A - When we teach that Judas was a Christian, we are teaching that God is a fool that would wash clean in His blood someone who would betray Him. This is absolute nonsense! God is not a fool!'' has nothing to do with predestination.

Those who meet His criteria to be saved are the 'whomsoever' will repent of their sins at the necessary depth of intent for example.

I like using the example of martyrdom, because that clears all confusion. A martyr for Jesus instantly qualifies to be saved Rev 2:10. A martyr will not ever betray Jesus. It is impossible to hate Him at the level required to betray Him if you love Him at the level required for martyrdom.

God won't save someone if He knows they aren't going to stay saved?

Correct. Please try to understand Jer 17:9-12. God judges the depths of our heart and mind's intent.

God is a fool for giving someone a chance?

A chance is given prior to salvation.

Posts like this are why people don't know what a Christian is.

On one hand some say "God doesn't play favorites and pick some to be saved, and others not to be saved".
But then they turn around and say..
"God won't save anyone who doesn't stay saved". In other words He's picking some not to be saved.

I don't think you are properly reading my post. You are jumping to conclusions before digesting what is being said.

Think of a wall. The vast majority of people are on the wall. Christians are not on the wall. They have been taken off as they have repented of their sins and had their hearts and minds examined by God. Then there are wicked people that have also been taken off as their hearts intent to love what is evil was full measure. The Holy Spirit gave up on them and their hearts have been hardened.

All on the wall can go either way. There is no predestination except that those who repent being predestined in Christ. Those that don't predestined to go to hell.

You reason as though a Christian is 'on the fence'. There are many that dip their toes in Christianity, taste of the gifts of the spirit, but are not off the wall. As we see in Matt 7:22-23 and how Paul calls them brethren 'so called' in 1 Cor 5:11.

How far do we go down this road? Why does He even create some people if He knows they won't be saved?

There is no road to go down. You are creating a road that does not exist.

I don't believe He foreknows who will and won't be saved. As explained here Free will.

That is a completely different topic to Him knowing whose repentance is sincere and whose is not!

Jesus died for all, the entire world. He's not a fool if people choose not to stay with Him.

''Stay with him''. Where does scripture say a Christian merely ''stays with Him''?

Scripture says we are adopted into His family Rom 8:15-17.

And He is a fool if He adopts someone like Judas who would not be able to ever be a martyr for Him. God is not a fool, that is fact, therefore our understanding needs to evolve. We are the fools.

I think people who try to judge what makes God a fool are in for a serious reckoning one day.

You are spinning my line around. I am not calling God a fool or saying His ways are foolish. My line is, ''God is not a fool, so stop implying He is''.

If you were a judge who had to vet a primary school teacher. You would do a proper job at ensuring he is not a paedophile. It is the same with God. He would never allow Judas into heaven. So the statement that he was a Christian, implying if he died before betrayal he would have gone to heaven, is as bad as saying that God would have allowed a paedophile into a classroom full of children. Please try to understand this. I know you have believed as you do for eons, but you are wrong.

 

[KingJ]

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: ​

(Matthew 19:16-17 KJV)

Agreed. Only God is truly good and perfect. Christianity is us being made perfect to God, not perfect like God Heb 10:14.

 

[KingJ]

I understand. It's frustrating and I'm sure at some point you know that should these "lukewarm/fake Christians don't realize and change" they'll be in the same boat as the non-Christians.

A Christian is not ever lukewarm. By definition, you are hot. You have chosen Jesus, God has judged your heart and mind, and you have passed, you are most certainly not somebody 'on the fence'.

For God to 'throw out' a Christian would therefore be the same as aborting a baby, divorcing a spouse, disowning a child. Certainly not something like removing an illegal immigrant that was not ever vetted.

I've been betrayed twice by two people and once was my ex-wife; 2 dating and 7 married.

Sorry to hear, that's terrible!!

What is "good"? Humans can't define "good" for humanity. No person shows 100% of himself/herself to anyone. Only God knows who a person truly is.

Correct. God knows us well, this is why Judas would not have been allowed into heaven, if before he betrayed Jesus, he had died. IE He was never a Christian. Christians qualify for heaven if they die.

(a). No. Judas WAS a Christian and like any, can fall into sin so bad that's what he did. Many have left the Church and openly boast this while mocking God and us. If a non-Christian believe as you state they are wrong and must be corrected.

Please try and understand that you are implying that if Judas died before betraying Jesus, he would have been in heaven.

That is on par with letting a paedophile into a classroom of children and only removing him when he molests someone!! You and @B-A-C are not grasping this insanity. We can poorly vet someone, even ourselves, not God. This is why from God's perspective OSAS (Once saved always saved) is sound and true.

God is NOT a fool that poorly vets someone before they ARE grafted into His family!

 

[KingJ]

(b). Who's teaching that? Jesus died once and for all but a person can REJECT salvation. It affords no one the idea they can "sin freely" b/c the are saved in this. Change must happen.

If I type more words, yourself and BAC are going to create rabbit trails and keep moving the goal posts. You two are not dealing with the argument I am making. All your lines are from the perspective of: 'God is a fool who cannot properly vet someone before grafting them into His family'.

A Christian is a NEW creation, born again, mind of Christ, adopted child of God, passed the test of heart and mind.

A Christian is NOT someone who puts their foot in church, tastes of the Holy Spirit and goes back to mortal sins.

I will wait for you two to properly deal with this fact, before discussing other items:

''Please try and understand that you are implying that if Judas died before betraying Jesus, he would have been in heaven.

That is on par with letting a paedophile into a classroom of children and only removing him when he molests someone!! You and @B-A-C are not grasping this insanity. We can poorly vet someone, even ourselves, not God. This is why from God's perspective OSAS (Once saved always saved) is sound and true.

God is NOT a fool that poorly vets someone before they ARE grafted into His family!''

 

[B-A-C]

A Christian is NOT someone who puts their foot in church, tastes of the Holy Spirit and goes back to mortal sins.

And yet, the Bible clearly says this can happen in dozens of places.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

 

[KingJ]

And yet, the Bible clearly says this can happen in dozens of places.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

I have explained context on these passages to you before. True Christians are not simply '''enlightened'', '''tasters'' of the Heavenly gift, ''''partakers''' of the Holy Spirit'. It is possible to 'partake of the Holy Spirit' and not be known by God Matt 7:22-23! IE Not be a Christian! Your passages are cherry picked and you are pushing a nonsensical half truth!

A Christian's eyes are completely open, they are a new creation 2 Cor 5:17 not merely ''enlightened'', we have eaten and digested the heavenly gift, we are not 'partakers' of the Holy Spirit, we are temples of God 1 Cor 6:19-20 and are consumed by His spirit John 2:16-17. He leads us into all truth.

Would you mind, just focusing on the Judas example. I want to, if possible, avoid turning this thread into another long and circular OSAS vs non-OSAS argument.

---------------------------------------

How is the following possible? How can you believe this? How is this not a belief of God being a fool? Can you explain that to me? Please meditate on the passage before just replying. You are giving replies that do not actually hit the nail on the head.

''Please try and understand that you are implying that if Judas died before betraying Jesus, he would have been in heaven.

That is on par with letting a paedophile into a classroom of children and only removing him when he molests someone!! You and @B-A-C are not grasping this insanity. We can poorly vet someone, even ourselves, not God. This is why from God's perspective OSAS (Once saved always saved) is sound and true.

God is NOT a fool that poorly vets someone before they ARE grafted into His family!''

 

[MedicBravo]

A Christian is not ever lukewarm. By definition, you are hot. You have chosen Jesus, God has judged your heart and mind, and you have passed, you are most certainly not somebody 'on the fence'.

For God to 'throw out' a Christian would therefore be the same as aborting a baby, divorcing a spouse, disowning a child. Certainly not something like removing an illegal immigrant that was not ever vetted.



Sorry to hear, that's terrible!!



Correct. God knows us well, this is why Judas would not have been allowed into heaven, if before he betrayed Jesus, he had died. IE He was never a Christian. Christians qualify for heaven if they die.



Please try and understand that you are implying that if Judas died before betraying Jesus, he would have been in heaven.

That is on par with letting a paedophile into a classroom of children and only removing him when he molests someone!! You and @B-A-C are not grasping this insanity. We can poorly vet someone, even ourselves, not God. This is why from God's perspective OSAS (Once saved always saved) is sound and true.

God is NOT a fool that poorly vets someone before they ARE grafted into His family!

On Judas, in clarification, he was Christlike but not saved.
In modern terms, a fake/false Christian and sadly there are many.
It would've been hypocritical to have one of the 12 NOT be like they were supposed to be.
He fell and fell hard.
Others did many bad things but "betrayal of the Son of God" I'm sure is at the top of the list of sins.

 

[B-A-C]

God is NOT a fool that poorly vets someone before they ARE grafted into His family!''

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Bill]

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of these individuals are necessary bad people. Anyone striving to be a Christian is a good person. The better people you will meet in society. But for crying out aloud, scripture is so clear and simple on the topic. There is no need to stumble yourself, others and misrepresent God.

The following beliefs are terrible!

A - When we teach that Judas was a Christian, we are teaching that God is a fool that would wash clean in His blood someone who would betray Him. This is absolute nonsense! God is not a fool!

B - When we teach that a Christian can lose their salvation in year 50 of servitude, we imply that God is unjust and evil. The thief next to Jesus on the cross had no servitude and went to paradise. A Christian who does the same (accepts Jesus) and then gives servitude of 49 years, can according to some go off into eternal hell. This is absolute nonsense! God is not unjust and evil!

C - When we teach that God cherry picks people for heaven, this implies partiality. Favouritism. Respecter of persons. No accountability on our part. Every verse in scripture outside of Rom 9:21 has flown over their heads. This implies God is unjust and evil. God is not unjust and evil!

God is NOT a fool. He does not graft a demon into heaven and make a mistake in kicking one out. He is able to search the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-12. We are fools that can think we are saved. And that is the only space that anti-OSAS believers should operate in. The only reason for verses like Phil 2:12 and 1 Cor 10:12. God is certainly not the fool. Every prophet that knew God better then you are I, said that God is good Psalm 136:1, just Job 34:12, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 and no respecter of persons Acts 10:34.

In fact, Job says it should be unthinkable that God pervert justice or do what is wicked Job 34:12!!! Unthinkable!!!

And yet we have Christians that propose the unthinkable! It is truly unbelievable!

Section 2 - So, what is a Christian?

A Christian is someone who has been washed clean of their sin by the blood of Jesus Heb 9:14 and are grafted into the family of God Rom 11:11-24. They can now call God their Father Rom 8:15-17!

For this to happen, we have to pass a session of God's righteous judgement Jer 17:9-12. Open the door to Jesus so to speak Rev 3:20.

God judges the depths of our hearts and minds for sincerity. in either of the following:

A - Repentance of sin Psalm 51:17
B - Servitude James 1:27
C - Martyrdom Rev 2:10

If we pass, we are washed clean of our sins by the blood of Jesus 1 John 1:7-9 and grafted into the family of God Rom 11:11-24. Given the faith to believe Rom 12:3 that Jesus was not merely a man, but Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

So, now we need to ask questions like the following:

1. Would Judas have betrayed Jesus if he was resurrected to life after dying as a martyr? I think NOT!!!
2. Would you send to eternal prison someone who committed venial sins in your house in year 50 of their servitude, after they took a bullet for you? I think NOT!!!
3. Would God cherry pick for heaven someone who from free will cannot pass judgement on sincerity in A,B or C? I think NOT!!!!

We may still make mistakes of sin as Paul alludes to in Rom 7:15. But make no mistake, sinning is no longer in our nature Rom 6:6. It is against our nature. A Christian will hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9.

Section 3 - Conclusion:

Christianity is a deep and permanent bond between a Creator and His creation. A bond at the maximum depth of intent. There is a 10/10 commitment from humans to God and a 10/10 commitment from God to humans. Fully adopted sons and daughters of God Rom 8:15-17. Family in a blood covenant with God Luke 22:20.

John 15:13 is clear that the greatest act of love is to lay your life down. God expects nothing less! Matt 16:24. As He gave us nothing less! John 3:16.

Matt 16:24 Then Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me''.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Being a Christian is a great honour. A creation forever bonded to the Creator of all.

I am glad to be a Fool for Christ , and glad to know - in this - you are wrong.

To think you really "Know" God , that is quite a statement. If God is not surprizing you, with what you don't know. Then you are not listening very well.

Now why would God go out of His way. You think maybe, because He chooses to? The burning bush to Moses, or , lol , the talking donkey.

How about the way inwhich God chose to transport Jonah ? Via whale. Lol

Of course in your great wisdom, these are just stories. I think these stories come across as sooo outrageous, people can not believe they are true incidents.

That would be the typical thinking of those so far above the fools of Jesus. After all, they know better than the rest of us

 

[KingJ]

Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

A Christian does not have ''unbelief''. You keep thinking a Christian is merely someone sitting in a seat in church. When will you grasp my posts to you? You are being corrected and yet keep coming back like you have not been?

You are still not answering the question or grasping the point being made. You are stuck in your non OSAS space.

I asked you nicely to 'try' and understand. Using the Judas example.

I will try help you from a different angle.

Why do you think we will reign with Jesus forever? If Judas died before he got a chance to betray Jesus, do you think, with his wonderful newly created 2 Cor 5:17 type ''''''''''Christian''''''''''' heart, he would ''''willingly''''' serve and reign with Jesus for ALL eternity?

Judas was a ''so called'' Christian (IE Not a Christian) and if he died before he got a chance to betray Jesus, and by some miracle got to heaven, he would be a mortal sinner one day in heaven. This is a 10/10 duh! fact!

The REASON we will reign with Jesus FOREVER is because of the depth of love we sink to for Him, evidenced by true A - Repentance Psalm 51:17 and or B - Servitude James 1:27 and or C - Martyrdom Rev 2:10, These acts of love OUTWEIGH the hatred we would ever be able to have for Him in heaven for all eternity!

It is IMPOSSIBLE to kill someone you are prepared to give your life for! This is not hard to grasp, and it is very important to understand. A real fact for all Christians to grasp!

 

[KingJ]

I am glad to be a Fool for Christ , and glad to know - in this - you are wrong.

To think you really "Know" God , that is quite a statement. If God is not surprizing you, with what you don't know. Then you are not listening very well.

Now why would God go out of His way. You think maybe, because He chooses to? The burning bush to Moses, or , lol , the talking donkey.

How about the way inwhich God chose to transport Jonah ? Via whale. Lol

Of course in your great wisdom, these are just stories. I think these stories come across as sooo outrageous, people can not believe they are true incidents.

That would be the typical thinking of those so far above the fools of Jesus. After all, they know better than the rest of us

Not sure what to respond to here. Stories are actual events. Perhaps take a stab at the post above I directed at BAC? I know you also believe as he does on this topic.

Focus on Judas, let's try keep this thread focused . An OSAS vs non OSAS thread can so easily go in circles.

 

[KingJ]

On Judas, in clarification, he was Christlike but not saved.
In modern terms, a fake/false Christian and sadly there are many.
It would've been hypocritical to have one of the 12 NOT be like they were supposed to be.
He fell and fell hard.
Others did many bad things but "betrayal of the Son of God" I'm sure is at the top of the list of sins.

Betrayal in his context was a mortal sin. We can discern this; we don't need to guess. He walked with Jesus like a close friend and then gave him up for gold, knowing they would kill him. He did have true remorse after and tried to return the gold he received. I would not put it past him to have repented on his rope. Just maybe we see him in heaven.

The point I am making, and it seems you are the only getting it thus far . Judas was certainly not a Christian before he committed the mortal sin. When Paul became a Christian, he stopped the mortal sin of murdering Christians. Would anyone ''EVER'' expect Paul to kill another Christian after his conversion?

Paul was taken to heaven, because God vetted his heart and mind! Paul passed as ''truly repentant, true Christian''!! We do not have to fear Paul in heaven, he has a new heart 2 Cor 5:17, IE He had a real conversion to Christianity. He was never a ''so called'' 1 Cor 5:11 type Christian.

Christians need to understand that for ALL eternity we will be with Jesus. Imagine a Judas just before he betrayed Jesus, being with Jesus and us, for all eternity. When we can grasp that that is an impossibility, we will grasp what it then takes to become a Christian!

 

[B-A-C]

A Christian does not have ''unbelief''. You keep thinking a Christian is merely someone sitting in a seat in church. When will you grasp my posts to you? You are being corrected and yet keep coming back like you have not been?

You are correct in this statement, however, some start off with belief, and come to unbelief.

Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

They believe "for a while" then fall away. The next verse says some of these people even start to bear fruit ( which they could not do on their own without Jesus ) but the fruit never matures.

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Now this wasn't just any tree out in the forest, this particular tree was in the man's garden. It belonged to the man ( Jesus )
Now then, if Jesus knows that the fruit can't bear fruit without Him, why would He be coming there for three expecting to find fruit on this tree?
The thing is, even with Jesus fertilizing and watering some trees ( Christians ), some of them refuse to bear fruit. If they don't, they will be cut down.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch "in Me" ( already in Christ ) that does not bear fruit will be cut off.

 

[KingJ]

You are correct in this statement, however, some start off with belief, and come to unbelief.

Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

You only fall into unbelief if at first you mustered up your own belief. A Christian who is vetted by God and grafted into His family is given a real faith to believe Jesus is Lord. There is absolutely NO such thing as an atheist who was once a true Christian.

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins!

1 Cor 12:3 No one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says 'Let Jesus be cursed! ' and no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here.

Non-OSAS believers seem to think God is a human that vet's people for heaven like it is His first day at His job.

You and I will like for ETERNITY with God. You are still NOT dealing with the fact that someone like Judas would NEVER have been in heaven if he died before betraying Jesus.

You keep dancing around this!

They believe "for a while" then fall away. The next verse says some of these people even start to bear fruit ( which they could not do on their own without Jesus ) but the fruit never matures.

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

You are taking this thread into a full OSAS verse non OSAS discussion. I asked you so nicely to focus on the Judas example.

If you knew what a Christian was, you would know that it is impossible for them to be a fig tree that does not bear fruit.

You have seemingly not read or grasped my OP!!! Would someone who just gave their life for you, not be able to make you a cup of tea?

Now this wasn't just any tree out in the forest, this particular tree was in the man's garden. It belonged to the man ( Jesus )
Now then, if Jesus knows that the fruit can't bear fruit without Him, why would He be coming there for three expecting to find fruit on this tree?
The thing is, even with Jesus fertilizing and watering some trees ( Christians ), some of them refuse to bear fruit. If they don't, they will be cut down.

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 15:2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Every branch "in Me" ( already in Christ ) that does not bear fruit will be cut off.

There is a truth to sanctification for many in the church. But we know that not all who say ''Lord, Lord'' are saved and born again Christians that would die for Jesus. Please read my OP. If anyone is not able to die for Jesus, they are NOT a Christian. Anyone able to die for Jesus would NEVER be among those branches removed. How many posts are you going to type dancing around this fact?

Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven! 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.

How many more posts before you ''''grasp''''' that a person that can be a martyr for Jesus would never be among the ''evildoers''?

Because you are NOT properly reading my OP I need to re-type it here!! For the people in Rev 2:10 only martyrdom = crown. Crown = Christian = martyrdom. Num 23:19 says God does not change and Acts 10:23 says God is no respecter of persons. All these verses you quoted, need to be read through this lens of what it takes to be a Christian so that you, I and everyone can grasp what a Christian actually is.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.