Suicide

[jculver]

It's pretty clear you are not reading what I reply. Coming back with either the same arguments or new ones without replying to the counter arguments I make, and also asking me the exact same questions I have already answered. I have tried to counter argue every piece of scripture that you have presented with other scripture, and quoted scripture to back my view.

Good response brother. I think you pretty much nailed it on the head here with the Scripture quoted.

I'm curious brother jculver, when you sin do you not ask GOD for forgiveness? Do you go on as if your automatically forgiven without asking for it? What if your friend has done you wrong? Do you expect him or her to ask you for forgiveness or not? I would.

Are you going to tell me that you'll just show up in Heaven, face Jesus in His presence and not be concerned about all your sins that you did not ask for forgiveness for?

Quoted from myself 2 posts ago

No I would not go to bed fine. I would confess my sin if I had knowledge of it, and thank God for the opportunity. I also asked for scripture to back your view and have yet to be presented with any. None of the three scriptures you posted say anything about confession being required for forgiveness.

This clearly indicates that I would do my best to confess all of my sins that I had knowledge of. See the end of this post for further elaboration.

proverbs 28:13- He that conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he that confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.

there are many verses that tell us that we have to acknowledge our sins and repent of them. we often do not want to do this because of the shame and pride that we have as to what people will say or think of us. however the longer we wait the more sins we commit and the more away from the lord we become.

but the word of god is the word of god. we cant just read for what we want it to say. it does not work that way. we must repent and that is the way that it is.

Funny that you are trying to accuse me of twisting scripture instead of challenging my interpretation.

I have no problem confessing my sins. That was never EVEN CLOSE to the issue presented in this thread which is:

Is confession of every sin you ever commit required for salvation?

My reply has always been:

Christ's blood alone is sufficient for salvation.

If you disagree with that then you are simply adding to the covenant like the catholics with their "Hail Mary's" and etc.

I wont argue about 1 John anymore. I posted an article at the end of my last post that goes in depth, even into the Greek, and holds my belief on the issue.

1 John must be taken into context with all of the New Testament. I argue this (which is already posted 3 or so posts back, but I'll post it again):

.... divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It’s the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ’s atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete–you’ll never need to seek it again.

AND


The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).


In summary, yes a Christian will seek to confess their sin, and yes it is something we should be doing continually (see the Greek verb tense reference in the article I posted above). However, it is not required for salvation.

If I believed the way you all did I would be terrified. What if you sinned and didn't know it? You really think you know every sin you have ever committed?

I am done spending energy on this thread, as no one is reading what I post. You are simply replying assuming I am wrong, and twisting my words. You reply as if I think it's "fine and good" not to confess, when I have never said anything near that. Nothing close. I simply said it is not required for salvation., and I have backed my view with scripture, and two scholarly articles written by one of the most studied men of God alive today. I feel it is futile when my voice goes unheard, or the words that are heard are twisted as they come out of my mouth. I don't any longer see how this thread could be glorifying our Father God.

 

[Chad]

It's pretty clear you are not reading what I reply. Coming back with either the same arguments or new ones without replying to the counter arguments I make, and also asking me the exact same questions I have already answered. I have tried to counter argue every piece of scripture that you have presented with other scripture, and quoted scripture to back my view.

Quoted from myself 2 posts ago

No I would not go to bed fine. I would confess my sin if I had knowledge of it, and thank God for the opportunity. I also asked for scripture to back your view and have yet to be presented with any. None of the three scriptures you posted say anything about confession being required for forgiveness.

This clearly indicates that I would do my best to confess all of my sins that I had knowledge of. See the end of this post for further elaboration.

You contradict your own statements, its unbelievable I'm reading this. If confession is not required for salvation, then why do you bother confessing your sins then? Explain this to me.

Funny that you are trying to accuse me of twisting scripture instead of challenging my interpretation.

Pardon me, but I do not care about your interpretation neither should anyone. We should care only for the interpretation the Holy Spirit offers, not you who walked away from the Lord, then came back confessing this just the other day. Should we trust your interpretation now?

I have no problem confessing my sins. That was never EVEN CLOSE to the issue presented in this thread which is:

Is confession of every sin you ever commit required for salvation?

My reply has always been:

Christ's blood alone is sufficient for salvation.

Do not try to argue with the below with your interpretation.

1 John 1:8-10

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If you disagree with that then you are simply adding to the covenant like the catholics with their "Hail Mary's" and etc.

I wont argue about 1 John anymore. I posted an article at the end of my last post that goes in depth, even into the Greek, and holds my belief on the issue.

1 John must be taken into context with all of the New Testament. I argue this (which is already posted 3 or so posts back, but I'll post it again):

.... divine forgiveness has two aspects. One is the judicial forgiveness God grants as Judge. It’s the forgiveness God purchased for you by Christ’s atonement for your sin. That kind of forgiveness frees you from any threat of eternal condemnation. It is the forgiveness of justification. Such pardon is immediately complete–you’ll never need to seek it again.

AND

The other is a parental forgiveness God grants as your Father. He is grieved when His children sin. The forgiveness of justification takes care of judicial guilt, but it does not nullify His fatherly displeasure over your sin. He chastens those whom He loves, for their good (Heb. 12:5-11).

You are twisting Scripture around with your own understanding, not one of the Holy Spirit. You accused me of adding to the covenant, then now you accuse ushalk the same. Use a little humility and let the Holy Spirit guide you.

In summary, yes a Christian will seek to confess their sin, and yes it is something we should be doing continually (see the Greek verb tense reference in the article I posted above). However, it is not required for salvation.

Bluntly put, this is a foolish thing someone can say. You contradict Scripture and your own wording. How does one receive salvation without it being "not required" to confess sins? Don't make foolish unscriptural statements. Consider this a fair warning.

If I believed the way you all did I would be terrified. What if you sinned and didn't know it? You really think you know every sin you have ever committed?

Its called asking GOD for forgiveness for all your sins. Asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the sins your not aware of and then confessing to them, seeking forgiveness in Christ.

I am done spending energy on this thread, as no one is reading what I post. You are simply replying assuming I am wrong, and twisting my words. You reply as if I think it's "fine and good" not to confess, when I have never said anything near that. Nothing close. I simply said it is not required for salvation., and I have backed my view with scripture, and two scholarly articles written by one of the most studied men of God alive today. I feel it is futile when my voice goes unheard, or the words that are heard are twisted as they come out of my mouth. I don't any longer see how this thread could be glorifying our Father God.

Its not glorifying our Father when you rely on two "scholarly articles written by one of the most studied men of GOD alive today". I'm sure you have proof of their lives correct? Its seeking GOD first, foremost through the Holy Spirit who gives understanding.

Don't think its a coincidence your the only person hear making comments and agreeing to "confession is not a requirement for salvation". Thats plain foolish. You twist Scripture and your own words, and it is you that is not listening. Your depending on these two fellow "Scholars" and quoting Scripture without an open heart for the Holy Spirit. Why is everyone here disagreeing with you? You walked away from the Lord and only recently returned by His grace, as shown in this thread of yours. (http://www.talkjesus.com/counseling/14408-attempt-return-i-find-so-many-road-blocks.html) We should know trust your understanding of Scripture?

That's inconsiderate to GOD first, and also inconsiderate towards those who have not walked away from the Lord and place their hearts in Him, studying the WORD carefully without accusing others of twisting your words around.

 

[ushalk]

excellent responce chad. thank you.

jculver we can all come up with all kinds of excuses and reasons to stay in the world and not turn from our sin. i think that a huge point that comes to me from reading scripture is that we need to turn from our sins. to do this it means to humble ourselves and look into our own hearts. this is hard for any of us because when we do this the lord opens it up so we can see how wretched and sinful we are and how we are not worthy of the lords love or anyone elses either. we are all sick and in need of a physicion. the lord offers this to us all and he is very merciful with the only reason is that he loves us and wants to have a relationship with us.

i am not saying that any of us know every single sin that we have ever committed but i do know that as we grow in christ and obey the spirit the more the lord lets us know as far as our sin is concerned. he will give us knowledge and wisdom of what we are doing right now and what we have done in our past. the word of god states to turn from our sin. but if we refuse to acknowledge our sin then we infact refuse christ and believe that we do all good.

why would the lord tell us to turn from sin if he is not willing to let us see our sin. he wouldnt. he will give us what we need to see and to overcome it. christs blood is the perfect atonement for our sins. but we still have to repent of our sin. read through acts it shows us that anytime anyone was saved it is done in an order first they accept the gospel then they repent and then they are baptised in water for the remission of sins.

 

[Chad]

Matthew 6:6-13

6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

 

[ushalk]

i love those scriptures chad. thank you for posting them.

 

[calluna]

Quote by JCULVERQuoted from myself 2 posts ago

No I would not go to bed fine. I would confess my sin if I had knowledge of it, and thank God for the opportunity. I also asked for scripture to back your view and have yet to be presented with any. None of the three scriptures you posted say anything about confession being required for forgiveness.

This clearly indicates that I would do my best to confess all of my sins that I had knowledge of. See the end of this post for further elaboration.

I have no problem confessing my sins. That was never EVEN CLOSE to the issue presented in this thread which is:

Is confession of every sin you ever commit required for salvation?

My reply has always been:

Christ's blood alone is sufficient for salvation.

In summary, yes a Christian will seek to confess their sin, and yes it is something we should be doing continually (see the Greek verb tense reference in the article I posted above). However, it is not required for salvation.

If I believed the way you all did I would be terrified. What if you sinned and didn't know it? You really think you know every sin you have ever committed?
END OF QUOTE

Iagree with jculver and all the points he has made. And he has stated that he does ask God for forgiveness when the Lord shows him of his sin. It appears like you are picking on JCulver here.

This thread is actually making me quite nervous.

I do know as of right now I am going to heaven. If I inadvertently sinned a second before being hit with a brain aneurism, and I obviously didn't have time to confess my sin, am I going to hell?

I don't know too much about calvinism and armenism...but isn't this basically what is being discussed here? OSAS and whatever the other belief is?

Calluna

 

[ushalk]

colluna, there is no one picking on jculver. we are all in need of repentance and we are all going to be repenting for the rest of our lives. but i beleive that the lord is a faithful and honest lord and will show us our sin always. if he did not reveal it to us then how are we suppose to grow. not to mention that the lord is not mocked and it is not alright to just go out living in sin as many of these posts seem to be saying.

yes we may fall into sin but it is not alright. the holy spirit will help all of us with this but sometimes we ignore it when it is brought to our attention or we shun it.

 

[Chad]

Picking on jculver? What an insult to everyone here who disagrees with someone, in this case brother jculver. No one is picking on anyone, so please refrain from those kind of comments.

I posted earlier exactly what ushalk just said: the Holy Spirit will show you your sins. You are responsible to confess the sins you have knowledge of as well.

Scripture speaks for itself. Everyone else just talk from themselves.

 

[calluna]

Sorry guys, didn't mean it to be an insult.

jculver says he confesses his sin on an going basis and he has and does ask for forgiveness, that is what i noticed he said in his post.


Calluna

 

[Chad]

Our brother's point was that you do not need to ask for forgiveness, only confess it. That is what I and many others here in this thread have read him speak. As a matter of fact, he accused of adding to the covenant by the fact we believe in asking for forgiveness

 

[tomsk]

I do know as of right now I am going to heaven. If I inadvertently sinned a second before being hit with a brain aneurism, and I obviously didn't have time to confess my sin, am I going to hell?​

When we turn to Christ we become children of God and and co-heirs with Christ. The guarantee of our salvation is Christ's blood. Our inheritance is not lost every time we sin and regained every time we confess that sin.

If that were the case tody I would have woken up saved, been condemned by breakfast time, saved again by the time I got to work, and damned again pretty soon after I arrived at work.

I am a father and my children get up to all sorts of mischief all the time.

I do expect my children to face up to what they have done when they are naughty. We talk about what happened, why they did what they did, and how they could have dealt with the situation better. We end up by saying sorry, and moving on

Because my children are young, they don't always understand why their actions are sometimes wrong; sometimes they do hurtful things without really knowing it.

At other times it is wiser to let some naughty behaviour go uncommented on. Life would be a real drag if we picked up on every single slip-up and fault in our children's lives.

Does a good parent refuse forgiveness to his children for any wrong they have done until they explicitly asked for forgiveness? I don't think so. Does a good parent disown his children everytime they do wrong and only accept them back when they make amends? I don't think so.

Look at the Parable of the Lost Son in Luke 15. The father throws his arms around his son before the son has a chance to say "I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son." God's graciousness exceeds our ability to repent.

If we repent of our sins, follow Jesus and seek to please him, then we are saved: our entry in the book of life does not appear and disappear every time we sin.

 

[nzdaughter]

my much loved special friend who was a warrior woman for God committed suicide last year - and it was a shock -she was like a true sister to me and closer to me than many family, compassionate and the nicest person at my church. she overcame the suicides of her two other sisters in the previous years as well who were not believers so obviously something to do with her upbringing or mental illness played a part and possibly also spiritual warfare of the worst kind. three sisters' in one family. but we will continue to take her mother along to a women's church conference that she used to attend with her daughter.

my beloved friend told me she became a Christian while working in law in NY during 9/11 with her nice athiest husband. She pressed harder into God more than anyone I know, devouring every Christian book and course you could think of. she was such a kind person -this was very noticeable. It was a shock to my core and it devastated me as she was an overcomer and a real winner to me. in spite of what others' might have said I believe God took her out of her suffering and that it was at the devil's hands' not her own.

she belongs to God and i never thought the devil could take another sister like that. I believe in God's mercy at her love for Him.

 

[denise04]

no way

i dont agree with the statement if you commit suicide and youre a christian you will still go to heaven, frst of all if you dothat you would be just as guilty as a sinner. in other words you would still go to hell anotherthing that is wrong is people believe fasly that once youre saved youre always saved thats not true. if you stop confessin your sins and continue in sin then youre not a christian. to go to heaven you have to be on the straight and narrow way as the bible says you cant just live any way you want to. god expects us to trust him nomatter what happens in life ive beenthrough many tradagies but taking myself out isnt the answer if i did god would ask mehy i didnt trust him and why did i take matters into myown hands/

 

[poobear]

Chad: "Suicide is one's attitude that GOD cannot fix their problem, which is not true. So therefore, suicide is like saying "GOD, your not strong enough to fix my problems, so I'm refusing you and taking my life away". You reject Jesus as Savior (obviously) and clearly assume GOD cannot fix your problems. Therefore, you go to hell."

Chad that is a very heartless thing to say. You have obviously not been in the depths of despair because if you ever were you would never say such a thing. This is nothing more than religious people spouting off at the mouth. Are you aware of David in the Bible? He went through depression and while you are at it maybe you can also read the Psalms.

I am going through a very tough time right now and I have not rejected God. God sustains me even though I may be in the depths of despair. God has not fixed my circumstances yet and I don't know why but I am still asking and waiting. And saying people are rejecting Jesus based on being in the depths of despair is ridiculous. David was a man after God's own heart yet he struggled with depression. And you do know that if depression is bad enough and goes on long enough that thoughts of suicide do occur do you not?

Please out of all due respect. Please cancel my registration to this website. It is very discouraging to me to find a whole lot of puffed up religious people but so few that really care and have the compassion of Christ for the hurting.

Thank you,

 

[poobear]

denise04: You have a compassion problem just like a lot of other religious people do. One should not commit suicide if one is a Christian and one should hold on as long as one can. And God would probably have to protect you from yourself but there is always that chance, however slim, that you may not be able to hold on and have had enough and out of a period of weakness do commit suicide out of desperation.

Now is God the God of compassion or not? Are you saved based on your own merit or based on the grace of God? Do you save yourself or does God save you? Did Christ die for all your sins or just some? Is Christ your advocate pleading to the Father on your behalf or not?

You seem to have a legalistic view of Christianity and are probably a Lordship Salvationist and possibly a Calvinist too which is a dangerous combination. Maybe a little more love and compassion of God and a little less cold hearted religious condemnation is in order.

You probably have never experienced the depths of despair and resisted the urge to commit suicide so you have no idea what you are talking about. Another one just spouting off at the mouth.

I also suggest that you consider David in the Bible and read the Psalms. Soften your heart a bit and that might help too.

 

[poobear]

nzdaughter: Some of these people have a problem with compassion and empathy. As in real life the internet is full of very religious people but few true believer's that have the love and compassion of Christ.

People make judgments about things they know nothing about and condemn because they are cold and/or ignorant of the subject. Some have limited feelings so perhaps they have never experienced the depths of despair for themselves so have no idea how bad it can get. Only one that has and has resisted the urge to commit suicide can really relate and show compassion.

Another thing I have noticed in life is that it is usually the sensitive and kind people that get hurt the most. The cold religious people seem to have no problems and not much really affects them deeply because they don't have that depth of feeling.

Even David struggled with depression and inspired the Psalms. I suggest anyone who is depressed read the Psalms for comfort. I have done so in the past and it has helped me in time of despair.

Sorry for your loss.

 

[David777]

Hello Poobear.

Religious folk put Jesus Christ to death.

Apostle Paul battled against the disturbing
influence on the churches of religious people.

The Catholic church sentenced many to death
who did not agree with their warped theology.

Islam kills Christians.

Hang in there poobear, religious people are responsible
for a large part of the persecution we receive.

Hold onto Jesus Christ with all your might.

Hey poobear, it is only an "opinion" that some religious
people have in the end.

 

[denise04]

first of all im a very compassionate person and i love all people God creates your life for a purpose and he wants you to come to him nomatter what youre going through life is hard but God helps us. you dont no how much despair ive faced ive been through wat most never ever go through would i commit suicied? noway God says hes with us until the end so i trust him im a non denominatiional sucide is sayin to God youre not big enough to handle my hurt and pain when in fact hes enough to help us in anything give ure problems to God he can help you

 

[poobear]

denise04: That's not true. You can be a believer and still be so depressed that you see no hope. You can go through very trying times and be very close to that kind of depression.

No point getting defensive. Please have more compassion for people who struggle with depression and/or suicidal thoughts.

Thank you,

 

[PrayerWarr1or]

From the Inside

Jesus Christ is love and through Him we all can have a relationship with the Lord, I think we have all read this in the Bible obviously. I read the large amounts of scripture in this thread and my interpretation is that confessing and repenting is required for entering heaven.

Jculver seems to have asked about something that is very hypothetical though that I do not believe the Bible directly answers, in that the question being do we go to hell on a technicality if that rule is broken by use passing away before an official confession to the Lord is made.

The answer lies through us interacting with the Holy Spirit, just think about it. If we have been saved before death and have a close relationship with God at the time of death where we actively and constantly confessed and repented from our sins does God seem like He will look at a list of all of our lifelong sins and the ones in blue are the ones that have been confessed and forgiven and there just so happens to be one in red that occured right before death that never got an 'official' confession, does he pull the hell trigger and we fall below?

My answer to that is 'no' with the catch that it is ultimately up to God and that our logic in no way is going to provide a 100% accurate answer.If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I will go back to the fact that I am not disputing the understand that confession is paramount to forgiveness as shown above and that is the attitude a Christian needs to practice to have a relationship with Jesus keyword FAITH(see below) and get into heaven but I don't see an elaboration stating that any unforgiven sin automatically means eternal damnation.

I believe also that depression and mental illness is something God always will have compassionate on us for and will take into account when it is time to be judged. My understanding of Him through my relationship with Him is that he is a just God.

Romans 3:30-32
30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

This scripture is a basis of what I believe above. That scripture says it all in a nutshell. And a message to poobear:

People make judgments about things they know nothing about and condemn because they are cold and/or ignorant of the subject.

You should take your own advise, you are entitled to your own opinion of course but just remember this scripture piece:

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven

Vermin