Thanks God/Jesus not one can be subtracted or booted from Your kingdom

[Bill]

Disqualified from preaching. Not losing salvation!

Think of the thief next to Jesus on the cross. Accepted Jesus and then met Him in paradise that same day. Now Paul did exactly the same on his horse whilst riding to Damascus. Yet, God chose to then use Paul. Use Paul to preach and serve him.

If there was a real risk of Paul (who was taken to heaven and shown a lot more then the thief next to Jesus), losing his salvation. Paul would have said, ''take me to heaven God, I qualify now, I don't want to lose that''. Paul did not say that to God. God is also not partial in that he would use Paul at the risk of him losing his salvation whilst not doing so with the thief. God knew He could use Paul, God knew He would not put Paul through anything he cannot handle. God ''knows'' His people.

If we can lose our salvation, why are you not racing your car down mountains with no security barriers? Taking part in dangerous sports? If you can't do such without the feeling of tempting God, well then would you jump in to the tiger cage that that one guy fell into? Commit a selfless act. So that you can....die and go straight to heaven. Not stay and be used / suffer persecution and trials and tribulations at the risk of losing your salvation.

Please man. We who are here on earth have a greater reward waiting for us then the thief on the cross. The belief that we can lose our salvation if we are truly saved, is just insane.

If i might state something. From Gods side, Salvation is a free gift to all who recieve Him. But just because a person freely recieves Christ, doesnt always mean, that the person will choose to remain.

Just as it is a free choice to walk with God, and to follow His will. Some ppl will choose to follow what they want.

God won't stop you. Warn, yes. Send prophets, yes. But you in your heart reject God, at death. It will be the same death as Satan and Judas

 

[KingJ]

It doesn't matter what people say, but it does matter what the Bible says.

Agreed.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matt 13:26; "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Matt 13:27; "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Matt 13:28; "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

This parable starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...."
a field with both wheat and weeds in it. At some point the tares will be removed (from the kingdom)

Jesus explains this parable a few verses later

Matt 13:36; Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matt 13:37; And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
Matt 13:38; and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
Matt 13:39; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:43; "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Another parable in the same chapter...

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again.. it starts off with... "the kingdom of heaven is like..."

BAC c'mon, this is terrible discernment. Your whole anti OSAS argument rests on this passage being read with ''the kingdom of heaven is like'' being ''truly saved Christians / those promised heaven''. That is an epic miss representation of this scripture.

Matt 13:38 says ''the field is the world''. The world includes Paul, Peter and.... Nero.

 

[KingJ]

If i might state something. From Gods side, Salvation is a free gift to all who recieve Him. But just because a person freely recieves Christ, doesnt always mean, that the person will choose to remain.

Just as it is a free choice to walk with God, and to follow His will. Some ppl will choose to follow what they want.

God won't stop you. Warn, yes. Send prophets, yes. But you in your heart reject God, at death. It will be the same death as Satan and Judas

Your logic is sound but, no offence, you speak as though you have absolutely no idea what a Christian is.

A Christian is not just a good person who has decided to try and serve God. To try stay on the straight and narrow. A person that Jesus has kind of taken in under His umbrella. Like a Judas.

A Christian is someone that has sunk to a depth of intent for God, on par with the depth He sunk to. God wants us to lay our lives down for Him as He did for us Matt 16:24. This is what we do when we sincerely repent of sin Psalm 51:17. This is why those who die for Him in the tribulation go straight to heaven.

A Christian is someone who can truly call Jesus, Lord. This is only possible if God reveals Jesus to us 1 Cor 12:3. God only does this for His people. Those who pass His judgement of their heart Jer 17:9-11. Who choose to hate what is wicked and cling to what is good Rom 12:9 at a depth of intent that causes God to take notice James 4:8.

We never lose free will. We have it before and after we are saved. It is just that we can now exercise it whilst covered by the blood of Jesus. Our free will chose to lay our lives down for God. As I have already said. Consider someone who dies for you. Will they be forever welcome in your house? They should be. Unless they died for you by accident. God does not make the mistake of grafting devils into His family.

A person who truly laid their life down for you should not ever be capable of hating you more then they love you. As laying your life down is the greatest act of love John 15:13. This is why we can trust God loving us. This is why He trusts us loving Him. This is why He washes us and grafts us in.

 

[Chad4Him]

Just a quick post on the OSAS debate:

I believe there are true Christians on both sides of the aisle on this one and there is a lot we can agree on.

We both agree that your fruits are proof of your walk or standing with God.

OSAS does not say you can just keep on sinning and truly be a Christian.

The other side does not say that you are in the grace of God one moment and then in the next you are not.

A question that OSAS believers might ask... "How secure can you be if you are afraid of losing your salvation? Won't you be constantly questioning it in fear?"

The response of the other side might be "If you believe in OSAS, won't you be constantly questioning if you were truly saved or not?" It really is very similar thinking.

We have TODAY to walk with God. If we accept what Christ has done for us, repent and turn from our wicked ways, and continue in faithfulness we will be saved.

My position is that we cannot easily fall out of the grace of God, but we can choose to "jump" out of his hand and turn away. This will not be an easy thing for a true child of God to do ( we do NOT need to live in "Eternal Insecurity".) When we are forgiven we are given a new heart and new desires, yet at the same time we need to continue to feed on spiritual food and look to God for help. But if we at some point hard-heartedly turn away from God, turn to sin and continue in rebellion we are not assured of salvation (even if we at one time were a true child of God). God is gracious, longsuffering and always ready to forgive when we turn from sin but we must not presume upon His grace.

 

[KingJ]

Well Paul is crystal clear to a Christian in Phil 2:12 'continue to work out your salvation'. There is no doubt that Paul preached a message of daily judging and examining ourselves.

We can think we are saved. We can easily deceive ourselves. Especially if in sin.

My agitation comes in when people imply God does not know who are His. Or that God has specially chosen some as in Calvinism. OSAS has to be true for God else we serve a God that does not keep His promises. 1 Cor 10:13 is for a Christian ''No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. '' If we lose our salvation, I guess God does tempt us beyond what we can handle.

 

[Chad4Him]

1 Cor 10:13 is for a Christian ''No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. '' If we lose our salvation, I guess God does tempt us beyond what we can handle.

Or else we choose not to take the way of escape :smile:

 

[KingJ]

Or else we choose not to take the way of escape :smile:

If it is an escape path we do not choose, the temptation is already beyond what we can bear.

Note the scripture says ''He will make the way of escape''. Not ''He will show us a way to escape and hope we take it''.

 

[Chad4Him]

If it is an escape path we do not choose, the temptation is already beyond what we can bear.

Note the scripture says ''He will make the way of escape''. Not ''He will show us a way to escape and hope we take it''.

Using that same reasoning, if God makes a way of salvation, we have no choice but not to take it.

 

[Bill]

Your logic is sound but, no offence, you speak as though you have absolutely no idea what a Christian is.

A Christian is not just a good person who has decided to try and serve God. To try stay on the straight and narrow. A person that Jesus has kind of taken in under His umbrella. Like a Judas.

A Christian is someone that has sunk to a depth of intent for God, on par with the depth He sunk to. God wants us to lay our lives down for Him as He did for us Matt 16:24. This is what we do when we sincerely repent of sin Psalm 51:17. This is why those who die for Him in the tribulation go straight to heaven.

A Christian is someone who can truly call Jesus, Lord. This is only possible if God reveals Jesus to us 1 Cor 12:3. God only does this for His people. Those who pass His judgement of their heart Jer 17:9-11. Who choose to hate what is wicked and cling to what is good Rom 12:9 at a depth of intent that causes God to take notice James 4:8.

We never lose free will. We have it before and after we are saved. It is just that we can now exercise it whilst covered by the blood of Jesus. Our free will chose to lay our lives down for God. As I have already said. Consider someone who dies for you. Will they be forever welcome in your house? They should be. Unless they died for you by accident. God does not make the mistake of grafting devils into His family.

A person who truly laid their life down for you should not ever be capable of hating you more then they love you. As laying your life down is the greatest act of love John 15:13. This is why we can trust God loving us. This is why He trusts us loving Him. This is why He washes us and grafts us in.

What of Judas. Jesus in talking to the Apostles said thier names are written in Heaven.

 

[KingJ]

Using that same reasoning, if God makes a way of salvation, we have no choice but not to take it.

No. Psalm 37:23 The steps of the righteous are lead by the Lord. It is when we have given our lives to Him that Him not leading us into temptation that we cannot bear becomes an issue.

 

[KingJ]

What of Judas. Jesus in talking to the Apostles said thier names are written in Heaven.

Are you referring to Rev 21:14 ?The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You are raising a discussion of free will. Jesus accepting Judas and expecting the best of him points to the existence of true free will.

It was always God's intent to write their names there. This is a separate issue to writing names in the Lamb's book of life.

Jesus clearly expected Judas's name there. Judas rejected Jesus. He got replaced by Matthew and Paul was added.

What you need to consider is if Judas had been faithful as Peter was and God revealed who Jesus was to Judas as He did to Peter. Would Judas have been able to do such? I think not. Matt 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Now a Christian is like Peter after Matt 16:16-17. You ''need'' to grasp that God only does this after He judges our hearts. We only pass if there is the required depth of intent. Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17. 1 Cor 12:3 'Nobody can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit'.

A human is on earth to find / be found by Jesus. A Christian is on earth to serve Jesus. We have one job. God does not 'fire' us. If we do not want to serve Him, He will take us to heaven 1 Cor 5:10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

 

[Bill]

Are you referring to Rev 21:14 ?The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You are raising a discussion of free will. Jesus accepting Judas and expecting the best of him points to the existence of true free will.

It was always God's intent to write their names there. This is a separate issue to writing names in the Lamb's book of life.

Jesus clearly expected Judas's name there. Judas rejected Jesus. He got replaced by Matthew and Paul was added.

What you need to consider is if Judas had been faithful as Peter was and God revealed who Jesus was to Judas as He did to Peter. Would Judas have been able to do such? I think not. Matt 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Now a Christian is like Peter after Matt 16:16-17. You ''need'' to grasp that God only does this after He judges our hearts. We only pass if there is the required depth of intent. Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17. 1 Cor 12:3 'Nobody can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit'.

A human is on earth to find / be found by Jesus. A Christian is on earth to serve Jesus. We have one job. God does not 'fire' us. If we do not want to serve Him, He will take us to heaven 1 Cor 5:10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

Luke 10:20 rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven

 

[KingJ]

Luke 10:20 rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven

Ambiguous verse. Jesus is speaking to their pride. Focus rather on having your names written in heaven over how great you are / how great the works you are doing are. Read the preceeding verses. They were doing miracles and receiving insight that would affect pride. Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

In addition, they were not Christians. Nobody at the time of Jesus was. An argument can only be made for Peter being ''righteous'' for heaven because of Matt 16:16-17.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I would argue that a belief that one can lose their salvation is more perverted.

1.It implies God is partial in that he keeps some on earth to be used for longer at the greater risk of them losing their salvation.

2. It implies God is a fool who makes mistakes of grafting people into His family. Did God also make a mistake kicking the devil out?

3. It is the reason many still take part in discussions of works verse grace. It pushes a works based salvation mentality.

Brother scripture itself teaches different. It's people who change what is said into what they want to believe.

Blessings

 

[Bill]

Ambiguous verse. Jesus is speaking to their pride. Focus rather on having your names written in heaven over how great you are / how great the works you are doing are. Read the preceeding verses. They were doing miracles and receiving insight that would affect pride. Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

In addition, they were not Christians. Nobody at the time of Jesus was. An argument can only be made for Peter being ''righteous'' for heaven because of Matt 16:16-17.

They were followers of Jesus, therefore Christian's.

Jesus wasn't talking to thier pride, btw. They were marveling at all that had been done. But Jesus said, rather than celibrate that, rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Dont you think if they had done it in pride, Jesus would have clearly rebuked them, the same way He rebuked Peter. "Behind me Satan"

 

[KingJ]

They were followers of Jesus, therefore Christian's.

One can only become a Christian after Jesus died on the cross and even then 'followers' are not necessarily Christians. If a lady admirer follows you is she now your bride? Please see post # 23.

Jesus wasn't talking to thier pride, btw. They were marveling at all that had been done. But Jesus said, rather than celibrate that, rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Focusing on the things they were doing leads to pride. He told them what to focus on.

Dont you think if they had done it in pride, Jesus would have clearly rebuked them, the same way He rebuked Peter. "Behind me Satan"

Yes. They were not in pride at that time. They were also not Christians. They were also not guaranteed paradise.

Doing great works for God can easily lead to pride. This is why Paul had all the early Christians sell all they had and commune. Live in modesty.

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Matt 15:8 These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

What you do need to grasp is what I said about Peter in Matt 16:16-17. Peter was the only disciple to walk on water. An argument can be made for him being the most devout. Yet he needed a revelation from God of who Jesus was. Were the other disciples given this before the cross? Out of those mentioned in Luke 10, only an argument can be made for Peter qualifying for paradise. This is what happens to us when we are judged by God and become Christians. Matt 16:16-17 = 1 Cor 12:3.

A Christian is someone who can never be an atheist. We have met Jesus. We know Jesus. He knows us. He talks to us. He keeps us.

If Jesus cannot keep us for these few years on earth, what hope do we have for ….eternity?

 

[KingJ]

Brother scripture itself teaches different. It's people who change what is said into what they want to believe. Blessings

You have to think more on this. On face value I agree with all your concerns. We don't want to preach to people / have people thinking that they can run around and live as they please with no fear of hell and God's judgement on their wickedness....as they are 'saved' or in the right religion.

But the truth is that anti-OSAS arguments are in fact more an attack on God's character then a risk to miss leading people.

God cannot keep us. God does not help us escape temptation. God sets us up for a fall. God shows preference. People are not truly saved. We must keep ourselves saved. Why then be in Christianity. All religions are good. Anti OSAS teaching undermines the cross.

As Christians we have '''one'' job. To properly represent God to the unsaved. We cannot and must not fail on this.

 

[Bill]

One can only become a Christian after Jesus died on the cross and even then 'followers' are not necessarily Christians. If a lady admirer follows you is she now your bride? Please see post # 23.

Focusing on the things they were doing leads to pride. He told them what to focus on.

Yes. They were not in pride at that time. They were also not Christians. They were also not guaranteed paradise.

Doing great works for God can easily lead to pride. This is why Paul had all the early Christians sell all they had and commune. Live in modesty.

Matt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Matt 15:8 These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

What you do need to grasp is what I said about Peter in Matt 16:16-17. Peter was the only disciple to walk on water. An argument can be made for him being the most devout. Yet he needed a revelation from God of who Jesus was. Were the other disciples given this before the cross? Out of those mentioned in Luke 10, only an argument can be made for Peter qualifying for paradise. This is what happens to us when we are judged by God and become Christians. Matt 16:16-17 = 1 Cor 12:3.

A Christian is someone who can never be an atheist. We have met Jesus. We know Jesus. He knows us. He talks to us. He keeps us.

If Jesus cannot keep us for these few years on earth, what hope do we have for ….eternity?

Your statement saying a person can only be a follower after the leader dies is ballony.

In contrast, the followers of hitler and the Third Reich existed while hitler was alive, and fell apart after his death.

The part on whether the Apostles were prideful or not, you answered youself, saying " they were not in pride at the time"

 

[B-A-C]

BAC c'mon, this is terrible discernment. Your whole anti OSAS argument rests on this passage being read with ''the kingdom of heaven is like'' being ''truly saved Christians / those promised heaven''. That is an epic miss representation of this scripture.

I didn't start this thread. :smile:

But the person who did start it stated that no one can be removed from the kingdom (world or not)..
That was the only point I was making, we can start another OSAS thread if you really want to. (How many is this now..? :smile:

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

No misrepresentaion, pure scripture.

 

[Chad4Him]

@KingJ - IMO your arguments are misrepresenting what I believe (you might call me an anti-OSAS person). Here is my response to your points:

God cannot keep us.

Jude 1:20-24 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garmentg stained by the flesh.

24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all timeh and now and forever. Amen.

We see that it is only by the grace of God that we can be presented blameless before Him. But we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God - not a hard task but a walk of faith. We reach out in compassion to those who are in danger of backsliding.

God does not help us escape temptation.

1 Corinthians 10:12-14
12Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

We see here that we are to take heed lest we fall, yet realize that there is a way of escape when we are tempted. We are to flee via this way of escape. If your house was on fire, and you were trapped, and a fireman blasted a hole in the wall for you to escape, and you refused to leave, would you say that the fireman did not help you escape unless he came in and dragged you out? God richly blesses us and provides for us. We must choose to take action.

God sets us up for a fall.

No, see the scriptures above.

God shows preference.

2 Peter 1:3-11 3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone is given a choice to accept the plan of salvation. Everyone who becomes a child of God is showered with ample grace and mercy to fight the good fight. As we grow in grace and knowledge we become fruitful and gain steadfastness.

People are not truly saved.

Yes we are truly saved, yet we still have free will. Being born again and becoming a child of God does not absolve you of the will to turn away from Him.

We must keep ourselves saved.

We do not keep ourselves saved, but use the armor God provides us, utilize the grace He showers on us daily to follow Him, and return our love to Him as He has loved us.

Why then be in Christianity. All religions are good.

Jesus is the only way.

John 14:5-6 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Anti OSAS teaching undermines the cross.

I would actually say it does the opposite - it magnifies the grace of God and His love and care for His children, who He richly blesses daily with grace and mercy, that we may walk in this life and "keep ourselves unspotted from the world". James 1:27 Even tho we have an enemy who is "seeking whom he may devour", 1 Peter 5:8-9 he has no power over us for we can easily resist him in the faith, as we are given instructions to do.