Thanks God/Jesus not one can be subtracted or booted from Your kingdom

[KingJ]

Your statement saying a person can only be a follower after the leader dies is ballony.

It is not wrong to call all Christians, followers. But it is wrong to call all followers, Christians. You have to try better understand what a Christian is.

A Christian is born again. A new creation. This all only possible after the cross. The word Christian did not exist before the cross. It is because we are washed in Jesus's blood Heb 10:10-12 that we can be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again''.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

The part on whether the Apostles were prideful or not, you answered youself, saying " they were not in pride at the time"

They were not Christians either. You cannot take ambiguous statements literally. Scriptures out of their context. Do you take Rom 9:13 literally?

 

[KingJ]

I didn't start this thread. :smile:

But the person who did start it stated that no one can be removed from the kingdom (world or not)..
That was the only point I was making, we can start another OSAS thread if you really want to. (How many is this now..? :smile:

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

No misrepresentaion, pure scripture.

Disagree, pure misrepresentation. I feel you have cherry picked that verse (no offence BAC, I do respect your posts).

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

The picture is set as field is the world. There are many tares / weeds. They are the product of the devil's seed. Then there are the children of God, they ''''are'''' the good seed.

Jesus says in Matt 10:16 'I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.''. Jesus says Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation''.

So, we, the children of God are sent out to sew the good seed into the world. Just as the devil sews the bad seed.

The only time in this passage that a reaping by the angels is explained is in the verse you quoted. The world, with all the unsaved is in the kingdom of God.

Verse 40 is the preparation for verse 41. They go hand in hand. You cannot quote vs 41 without vs 40, or the context started in vs 38.

Tares are burned. Tares are extracted from the world in God's kingdom. Children of God are the good seed. Not tares.

 

[Bill]

@KingJ - IMO your arguments are misrepresenting what I believe (you might call me an anti-OSAS person). Here is my response to your points:



Jude 1:20-24 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garmentg stained by the flesh.

24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all timeh and now and forever. Amen.

We see that it is only by the grace of God that we can be presented blameless before Him. But we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God - not a hard task but a walk of faith. We reach out in compassion to those who are in danger of backsliding.



1 Corinthians 10:12-14
12Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

We see here that we are to take heed lest we fall, yet realize that there is a way of escape when we are tempted. We are to flee via this way of escape. If your house was on fire, and you were trapped, and a fireman blasted a hole in the wall for you to escape, and you refused to leave, would you say that the fireman did not help you escape unless he came in and dragged you out? God richly blesses us and provides for us. We must choose to take action.



No, see the scriptures above.



2 Peter 1:3-11 3His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us toc his own glory and excellence,d 4by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,e and virtue with knowledge, 6and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualitiesf are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers,g be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Everyone is given a choice to accept the plan of salvation. Everyone who becomes a child of God is showered with ample grace and mercy to fight the good fight. As we grow in grace and knowledge we become fruitful and gain steadfastness.



Yes we are truly saved, yet we still have free will. Being born again and becoming a child of God does not absolve you of the will to turn away from Him.



We do not keep ourselves saved, but use the armor God provides us, utilize the grace He showers on us daily to follow Him, and return our love to Him as He has loved us.



Jesus is the only way.

John 14:5-6 5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.



I would actually say it does the opposite - it magnifies the grace of God and His love and care for His children, who He richly blesses daily with grace and mercy, that we may walk in this life and "keep ourselves unspotted from the world". James 1:27 Even tho we have an enemy who is "seeking whom he may devour", 1 Peter 5:8-9 he has no power over us for we can easily resist him in the faith, as we are given instructions to do.

Chad this is excellant.

 

[B-A-C]

The picture is set as field is the world.

From my perspective it doesn't matter if it is the "entire" world or not. Either way... it says some will be removed from the kingdom.
But I do notice but of these parables, seem to narrow "the world" down quite a bit. For example, it isn't all the tares in the world,
it's only the ones in this garden, that are specifically talked about.

The same with the bad fish, it isn't all the bad fish in the world that are mentioned, only the ones in this net.
So you can interpret as the "entire" world if you want to. But neither parable supports that.
But again, even if they did... some people will be removed from the kingdom.

 

[KingJ]

From my perspective it doesn't matter if it is the "entire" world or not. Either way... it says some will be removed from the kingdom.
But I do notice but of these parables, seem to narrow "the world" down quite a bit. For example, it isn't all the tares in the world,
it's only the ones in this garden, that are specifically talked about.

The same with the bad fish, it isn't all the bad fish in the world that are mentioned, only the ones in this net.
So you can interpret as the "entire" world if you want to. But neither parable supports that.
But again, even if they did... some people will be removed from the kingdom.

None of the good seeds are removed. That is why they are called the good seeds and not tares.

 

[KingJ]

@KingJJude 1:20-24 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22And have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garmentg stained by the flesh.

24Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all timeh and now and forever. Amen.

We see that it is only by the grace of God that we can be presented blameless before Him. But we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God - not a hard task but a walk of faith. We reach out in compassion to those who are in danger of backsliding.

Chad I feel you are dealing with vs 20 - 23. Paul doesn't want any of us to stop examining ourselves. But you are not properly dealing with / grasping vs 24-25. We have to consider both.

Paul preaches to all in attendance as though they are saved. He knows there are different people in the audience. Example: 1 Born again Christians, 2. unrepentant grievous sinners, 3. Unrepentant non grievous sinners, 4. those who repent but have not actually met Jesus, they kind of 50/50. Paul does not want any of them in attendance to think they are 100% saved and secure. As you quoted 1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. He wants us to daily examine ourselves in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. I agree with you, BAC and Bendito 100% here.

But we need to now examine things further. Paul knows there is no harm in a born again Christian examining themselves. He knows it is absolutely essential to preach as he does as most in attendance are not BA Christians. His message will go outside of the meeting and make its way to all unsaved. God is completely impartial and would not want a message preached to saved that is different to that preached to the unsaved.

Look at 1 Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. A ''Christian'' doing an act that not even pagans tolerate. Paul believed this guy was saved?

Notice how Paul says ''claims'' to be a brother in vs 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

Consider 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Do you believe a Christian can go on sinning a sin that not even pagans tolerate? Could Paul go on murdering Christians after he was knocked off his horse, met and accepted Jesus? Paul sinned after he was saved, no doubt about that. But he did not go on in a sin that not even pagans tolerate. I believe we need to first properly grasp what a Christian is.

A Christian is someone who has laid their life down for God Matt 16:24. Repented truthfully of sins Psalm 51:17 and most importantly passed God's judgement of their heart when they repented Jer 17:9-11. Does someone who does not truthfully repent get grafted in? Does God unite such a person with Christ Eph 2:13? Does God send such a person the Holy Spirit that they may be reborn, baptized and be made a new creation? I think not. God is not a fool. The only person that is united with Christ is the person that truthfully repents Psalm 51:17. The person that truthfully repents, can lay their life down for God. The person that can lay their life down for God, ''''cannot'''' go on and on and on in sin that not even pagans tolerate.

We are playing God when we push anti-OSAS teaching. We are saying '''God makes mistakes grafting some into His family''. We are speaking for God. Let's just speak for ourselves. God is not a human that makes mistakes. He did not make a mistake grafting us into His family. He did not make a mistake kicking the devil out of heaven. We, make mistakes. We assume we are saved when we are not. We must not overlook / ignore scripture like the one you quoted Jude 1:24 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy. Jesus is able to keep us from stumbling. He already has our heart. His seed is in us. We are His. He now keeps us. He can keep us. He does keep us.

 

[KingJ]

Yes we are truly saved, yet we still have free will. Being born again and becoming a child of God does not absolve you of the will to turn away from Him.

You are only grafted in because God has judged you as someone who will never turn away from Him.

You have free will before you are saved, to accept or reject the light. You have free will after you are saved as well. We never lose free will. There will be ranks in heaven among us as there are among the angels. Some people want to serve God more then others. We all want to serve God, that is why He judged us and grafted us in.

What you are in essence proposing is that we need to ensure our free will keeps us saved. Well that is only true for those who never truly made Jesus Lord of their lives when they got saved.

Does Jesus have to keep proving Himself to us or was the cross sufficient?

 

[KingJ]

We do not keep ourselves saved, but use the armor God provides us, utilize the grace He showers on us daily to follow Him, and return our love to Him as He has loved us.

The armor is for our protection, making us effective and victorious on earth. It has nothing to with losing our salvation.

We give troops armor to be good soldiers. If they don't wear it they will die to the enemy. We will give them a honorable funeral as one of our own died. They will not be guilty of treason.

 

[KingJ]

I would actually say it does the opposite - it magnifies the grace of God and His love and care for His children, who He richly blesses daily with grace and mercy, that we may walk in this life and "keep ourselves unspotted from the world". James 1:27 Even tho we have an enemy who is "seeking whom he may devour", 1 Peter 5:8-9 he has no power over us for we can easily resist him in the faith, as we are given instructions to do.

The cross is what God did for us. God has always reigned blessings on His people. God has always wanted His people to sacrifice and keep holy. The cross is a separate issue to this.

In one act, God revealed His love for us. The full depth of God's love is known to us. Something those prior to the cross could not easily / if even grasp.

John 15:13 'The greatest act of love is to lay one's life down'. There is no greater act of love.

God has done this for us. So from God's end there is no ''Him keeping faithful to us, to keep us''. Likewise us, when we lay our lives down for Him.

Him keeping faithful to us after the cross should be a given. Otherwise we will think He died by accident surely.

 

[KingJ]

"keep ourselves unspotted from the world".

We are told this, follow this because it makes us better ambassador's for God. Better soldiers. As Paul says in 1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Now consider 1 Cor 5:10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

If you aren't good soldiers for God, we will have to leave this world. Leave the world = go home to heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

None of the good seeds are removed. That is why they are called the good seeds and not tares.

Even so, the tares are being removed from the same field, the same net, the same kingdom.