The Atheist Test

[Chad]

The theory of evolution of the Coca Cola can


Billions of years ago, a big bang produced a large rock. As the rock cooled, sweet brown liquid formed on its surface. As time passed, aluminum formed itself into a can, a lid, and a tab. Millions of years later, red and white paint fell from the sky, and formed itself into the words "Coca Cola 12 fluid ounces."[/SIZE]

Of course, my theory is an insult to your intellect, because you know that if the Coca Cola can is made, there must be a maker. If it is designed, there must be a designer. The alternative, that it happened by chance or accident, is to move into an intellectual free zone.[/SIZE]

The banana-the atheist's nightmare.

Note that the banana:[/SIZE]

1. Is shaped for human hand
2. Has non-slip surface
3. Has outward indicators of inward content:
   Green-too early,
   Yellow-just right,
   Black-too late.
4. Has a tab for removal of wrapper
5. Is perforated on wrapper
6. Bio-degradable wrapper
7. Is shaped for human mouth
8. Has a point at top for ease of entry
9. Is pleasing to taste buds
10. Is curved towards the face to make eating process easy

To say that the banana happened by accident is even more unintelligent than to say that no one designed the Coca Cola can.[/SIZE]

TEST ONE
The person who thinks the Coca Cola can had no designer is:[/SIZE]
A. Intelligent[/SIZE]
B. A fool[/SIZE]
C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious[/SIZE]



Did you know that the eye has 40,000,000 nerve endings, the focusing muscles move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells?[/SIZE]

Charles Darwin said, [/SIZE]

"To suppose that the eye...could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." (For full quote see the [/SIZE]footnote[/SIZE] at the end of the page.) [/SIZE]
​

If man cannot begin to make a human eye, how could anyone in his right mind think that eyes formed by mere chance? In fact, man cannot make anything from nothing. We don't know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop . . . but we cannot create even one grain of sand from nothing. Yet, the eye is only a small part of the most sophisticated part of creation-the human body.

[/SIZE] George Gallup, the famous statistician, said, [/SIZE]

"I could prove God statistically; take the human body alone; the chance that all the functions of the individual would just happen, is a statistical monstrosity."[/SIZE]​

http://www.sbea.mtu.edu/users/slstonge/a4.jpg

Albert Einstein said,[/SIZE]

"Everyone who is seriously interested in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe;a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of which our modest powers must feel humble."[/SIZE]
​

TEST TWO
A. Do you know of any building that didn't have a builder?[/SIZE]
___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
B. Do you know of any painting that didn't have a painter?[/SIZE]
___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
C. Do you know of any car that didn't have a maker?[/SIZE]
___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]

If you answered "YES" for any of the above, give details:[/SIZE]
_____________________________________________[/SIZE]
_____________________________________________

[/SIZE]
Could I convince you that I dropped 50 oranges onto the ground and they randomly fell into 10 columns and 5 rows? The logical conclusion is that someone with an intelligent mind put them there. The odds that ten oranges would fall by accident into a straight line are mind-boggling, let alone five rows of ten.[/SIZE]

TEST THREE
A. From the atom to the universe, is there order?[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
B. Did it happen by accident?[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
C. Or, must there have been an intelligent mind?[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
D. What are the chances of 50 oranges falling by chance[/SIZE]
into ten rows of five oranges? ______________________ [/SIZE]

If you answered "YES" for any of the above, give details:[/SIZE]
_____________________________________________[/SIZE]
_____________________________________________[/SIZE]


The declaration "There is no God" is what is known as an absolute statement. For an absolute statement to be true, I must have absolute knowledge. [/SIZE]

Here is another absolute statement: "There is no gold in China."
[/SIZE]
TEST FOUR
What do I need to have for that statement to be true? [/SIZE]
A. No knowledge of China.[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
B. Partial knowledge of China.[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]
C. Absolute knowledge of China.[/SIZE]

___ YES ___ NO[/SIZE]

"C" is the correct answer. For the statement to be true, I must know that there is no gold in China, or the statement is incorrect. To say "There is no God," and to be correct in the statement, I must be omniscient.[/SIZE]

I must know how many hairs are upon every head, every thought of every human heart, every detail of history, every atom within every rock...nothing is hidden from my eyes...I know the intimate details of the secret love-life of the fleas on the back of the black cat of Napolean's great-grandmother. To make the absolute statement "There is no God." I must have absolute knowledge that there isn't one.[/SIZE]

Let's say that this circle represents all the knowledge in the entire universe, and let's assume that you have an incredible 1% of all that knowledge. Is it possible, that in the knowledge you haven't yet come across, there is ample evidence to proved that God does indeed exist?[/SIZE]

If you are reasonable, you will have to say, "Having the limited knowledge that I have at present, I believe that there is no God." In other words, you don't know if God exists, so you are not an "atheist," you are what is commonly known as an "agnostic." You are like a man who looks at a building, and doesn't know if there was a builder.
[/SIZE]
TEST FIVE
The man who sees a building and doesn't know if there was a builder is:
A. Intelligent
B. A fool
C. Has an ulterior motive for denying the obvious[/SIZE]

Perhaps you have questions that hold you back from faith. First, almost every question you have about suffering humanity etc., can be adequately answered.[/SIZE]

Second, we have faith in plenty of things we don't understand. Did you understand the mechanics of television before you turned it on? Probably not. You took a step of faith, turned it on, and after it worked, understanding how it worked wasn't that important. We accept that there are unseen television waves right in front of our eyes. We can't see them because they are invisible. For them to manifest, we need a receiver, then we can enjoy the experience of television.[/SIZE]

God is not flesh and blood. He is an eternal Spirit-immortal and invisible. Like the television waves, He cannot be experienced until the "receiver" is switched on. Here is something you will find hard to believe: Jesus said, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21).

[/SIZE] Either that is true or it isn't. Jesus Christ says that He will manifest Himself to anyone who obeys Him. Approach the subject the same way you approached your first television set. Just take a small step of faith.[/SIZE]

Or have you an ulterior motive? Could it be that the "atheist" can't find God, for the same reason a thief can't find a policeman? Could it be that your love for sin is clouding your good judgment? If the Bible is true, and Jesus Christ has "abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel," then you owe it to yourself just to check it out. Here is how to do that:[/SIZE]

TEST SIX
With a tender conscience, answer yes or no to this list of the Ten Commandments:[/SIZE]

1. Have I always loved God my Creator with all my heart, mind, soul and strength?[/SIZE]
2. Have I made a god in my own image—a god to suit myself?[/SIZE]
3. Have I ever used God's name in vain?[/SIZE]
4. Have I kept the Sabbath holy?[/SIZE]
5. Have I always honored my parents implicitly?[/SIZE]
6. Have I murdered (God considers hatred as murder)?[/SIZE]
7. Have I committed adultery (including premarital sex and lust)?[/SIZE]
8. Have I stolen (the value is irrelevant)?[/SIZE]
9. Have I lied (including fibs and these questions)?
10. Have I coveted (been greedy or materialistic)?[/SIZE]

If you have even broken one Law, then you have sinned against God and therefore will "surely die," for the "wages of sin is death."[/SIZE]

We are all guilty of breaking the Commandments. Listen to the voice of your conscience, and let it remind you of some of the sins of the past. We are not perfect as we are commanded to be (Matthew 5:48), neither is our heart pure. On Judgment Day our transgressions will be evidence of our shame. Think of it: God has seen every sin we have ever committed. We share our thought-life with Him.[/SIZE]
We are guilty of violating His Law a multitude of times, yet if we repent, God can forgive us because Jesus stepped into the courtroom 2.000 years ago and paid the fine for us.[/SIZE]

His death on the cross satisfied the Law we so blatantly transgressed, and at the same time demonstrated how much God loves us—"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." His shed blood on the cross can make you clean in the sight of a holy God...as though you have never sinned.[/SIZE]

God doesn't want you to go to Hell. Please, forget your arguments, repent and put your trust in Jesus and be saved from God's wrath. Make Psalm 51 your prayer, then read your Bible daily and always obey what you read; God will never let you down. Thank you for taking the time to read this booklet.

[/SIZE] AtheistTest.com footnote
Darwin's full quote: "To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." Darwin continues, "Yet reason tells me..."

Darwin goes on to explain in the Origin of Species that he believed he could justify the idea of the eye forming through natural selection by reason. Ask yourself if it is really reasonable for an eye with 40,000,000 nerve endings, focusing muscles that move an estimated 100,000 times a day, and a retina that contains 137,000,000 light sensitive cells to form without a designer.You decide.

Adapted from How To Make An Atheist Backslide
by Ray Comfort ([/SIZE]Bridge-Logos Publishers )
available through your Christian bookstore.[/SIZE]

 

[BCRE8TVE]

Oh, I see your point! For there to be a watch, one needs a watch-maker. For there to be a plate, there has to be a plate-maker. For there to be a pan, there has to be a pan-maker. Therefore, for there to be a god, one needs...

Also, I would like to post the quote from Darwin, in full.

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real."
Essentially, what Darwin was really saying that while the evolution of the eye must seem so absolutely incredible, that the odds of having 40,000,000 nerve endings, focusing muscles moving at an estimated 100,000 times a day, and the retina containing 137,000,000 light sensitive cells, evolving all at once, is completely insane! However, if the eye had evolved slowly over millions of years, a small change every hundred years say, then is it so unreasonnable to assume that a slow build-up of change might lead to the massive complexity we see today?

I could pull up numbers about buildings too, and say that it is just so incredible, so unreasonable that structures can exist that are hundreds of meters tall cannot have [/SIZE]been built! If you have a building without electricity, without water, without its structure, then it's not a full building. Does this mean that the building appeared all at once? Absolutely not, a building was built one brick at a time. Same with the eye, it was made one change at a time.[/SIZE]

 

[farout]

BECRE8TVE: Have you ever just read any of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? Do you think there was anam who said He was God, Jesus Christ?

What happens when we die? Is there life after death.

I read your profile and thought your might be a seeker. Have you already made up your mind?:embarasse

 

[BCRE8TVE]

BECRE8TVE: Have you ever just read any of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? Do you think there was anam who said He was God, Jesus Christ?

Hello! No, I have not read the Gospels, in fact I have practically not read the Bible at all. I was just not interested in it. Now sadly I don't have enough time

What happens when we die? Is there life after death.

I don't believe so. Everything shows that our minds are not separate from our bodies. Brain damage translates to changed personalities, mental problems, neurological problems, etc. Whatever affects the brain affects us, affects the way we think. And at death, the brain stops working and starts degrading.
Now the soul might be some ethereal breath of life which really does go to paradise, I can't disprove that, but I don't think that soul is really 'us', if you know what I mean.

I read your profile and thought your might be a seeker. Have you already made up your mind?:embarasse

I am a seeker as to why other people believe. I am comfortable with my belief (or unbelief, as may be the case ), but I am open to the idea that I may one day convert. I do think however that is unlikely.

 

[Fraction]

Another attack on atheists? Really?

The Big Bang theory does not deny the existence of God or any other higher power or deity. Evolution does not deny the existence of God or any other higher power or deity. To use or consider them as evidence against a higher power would be highly illogical. To believe or assume these theories are impossible, is even more illogical. I suppose I could get specific.

The Big Bang theory and coca cola.

The Big Bang theory is NOT something from nothing, proper research would explain this. In this theory, at one time, the entire universe was in a highly compressed state. This compressed state would obviously be very large, or even more compressed than one would think. It was also very hot, beyond your possible imagination. When all of the compression, heat, friction, etc etc built up, it created a massive explosion. The remains from this explosion is the universe. This is The Big Bang theory in simple terms. In NO WAY does this theory even begin to explain where the universe in it's compressed state actually came from. That is obviously unknown and the only theory is, is "it's always been there". To compare a natural phenomena with a man made creation is not a valid argument or debate. It would be turned over easily by the explanation of the rain or even photosynthesis. Natural phenomenons and man made creations are in completely different areas, just like creations of God and creations of man.

The eye and how it is impossible to be by mere chance.

When you said mere chance, it's obvious your target was evolution. Evolution has a few different meanings when looked at from afar. The two most popular are: An explanation of how we were made/created/appeared. Another is an explanation for gradual changes over long periods of time. Evolution as an explanation of how we appeared has yet to actually be proven (the theory of how we pretty much evolved from monkies or some other lesser life-form. It is our most developed scientific explanation, and should not be looked at as "NOT possible". However, in this subject it would be easier to deal with the second belief of evolution that HAS been proven. It can be seen through historical evidence that things constantly change over time. Whether it be when adapting to world or climate changes, environment changes, etc etc etc. Our eyes are examples of this evolution. This is NOT mere chance, and it is not random. Evolution happens over a large amount of time, it is the same exact thing as the learning process from school or other activities. 2000 years ago, our eyes were probably less efficient and complex then they are now. Evolution is real and proven, just not to the point where it explains our existence.

The banana.

1. Anything that can fit in the human hand, is shaped for the human hand. We are obviously the center of the world/universe.
2. So does anything with sand paper wrapped around it.
3. So does a mood ring...
4. Doesn't feel like a tab, still feels like force entry.
5. That is where it grows, would you try to open up an apple from it's apple stem?
6. A lot of things, even man made things, are bio degradable.
7. Anything that can fit in the human mouth is for the human mouth. Even pennies.
8. This is the third time it is mentioned.
9. So are a lot of other things...that could kill you.
10. Anything at a proper angle could fit this description, even a caterpillar.

These are all responses of equal logic, so what is your point? Some higher power had to create the banana? Then they took extra special care to single this fruit out above all others? The banana...proves NOTHING. It will convince people of nothing but craziness.

Onto the logical tests, awesome. I will however not single them out, but I will start my closing.

The truth is:

Atheists can't prove that there is no higher power, it would be illogical to firmly believe in NOTHING. At the very least, consider the fact that the actual universe is a living cycle that we are a part of. Strict and blind atheism, is in fact illogical. Agnostics stand on much more stable ground than Atheists.

Believers can't prove that there is a higher power. Any type of evidence or claim you could possibly bring up will forever be personal opinion or experience. You will never be able to prove it to another person in your life time without divine aid.

It's simple:
Atheists have no ammo against your faith, unless you buy into them. Believers have no ammo against atheists, unless they buy into you. No matter how much you argue or how many stupid questions are asked or stupid points that are attempted to be made, everyone loses in the end. It's time you have wasted, and will never get back.

I hope this isn't taken offensively.

 

[s.i.e.]

Atheists have no ammo against your faith, unless you buy into them. Believers have no ammo against atheists, unless they buy into you. No matter how much you argue or how many stupid questions are asked or stupid points that are attempted to be made, everyone loses in the end. It's time you have wasted, and will never get back.

This is a great point, Fraction.

What is it about Atheists that threatens Christians? Their's is built on faith, just as the Christian.

 

[Kaibeto]

Another attack on atheists? Really?

The Big Bang theory does not deny the existence of God or any other higher power or deity. Evolution does not deny the existence of God or any other higher power or deity. To use or consider them as evidence against a higher power would be highly illogical. To believe or assume these theories are impossible, is even more illogical. I suppose I could get specific.

The Big Bang theory and coca cola.

The Big Bang theory is NOT something from nothing, proper research would explain this. In this theory, at one time, the entire universe was in a highly compressed state. This compressed state would obviously be very large, or even more compressed than one would think. It was also very hot, beyond your possible imagination. When all of the compression, heat, friction, etc etc built up, it created a massive explosion. The remains from this explosion is the universe. This is The Big Bang theory in simple terms. In NO WAY does this theory even begin to explain where the universe in it's compressed state actually came from. That is obviously unknown and the only theory is, is "it's always been there". To compare a natural phenomena with a man made creation is not a valid argument or debate. It would be turned over easily by the explanation of the rain or even photosynthesis. Natural phenomenons and man made creations are in completely different areas, just like creations of God and creations of man.

The eye and how it is impossible to be by mere chance.

When you said mere chance, it's obvious your target was evolution. Evolution has a few different meanings when looked at from afar. The two most popular are: An explanation of how we were made/created/appeared. Another is an explanation for gradual changes over long periods of time. Evolution as an explanation of how we appeared has yet to actually be proven (the theory of how we pretty much evolved from monkies or some other lesser life-form. It is our most developed scientific explanation, and should not be looked at as "NOT possible". However, in this subject it would be easier to deal with the second belief of evolution that HAS been proven. It can be seen through historical evidence that things constantly change over time. Whether it be when adapting to world or climate changes, environment changes, etc etc etc. Our eyes are examples of this evolution. This is NOT mere chance, and it is not random. Evolution happens over a large amount of time, it is the same exact thing as the learning process from school or other activities. 2000 years ago, our eyes were probably less efficient and complex then they are now. Evolution is real and proven, just not to the point where it explains our existence.

The banana.

1. Anything that can fit in the human hand, is shaped for the human hand. We are obviously the center of the world/universe.
2. So does anything with sand paper wrapped around it.
3. So does a mood ring...
4. Doesn't feel like a tab, still feels like force entry.
5. That is where it grows, would you try to open up an apple from it's apple stem?
6. A lot of things, even man made things, are bio degradable.
7. Anything that can fit in the human mouth is for the human mouth. Even pennies.
8. This is the third time it is mentioned.
9. So are a lot of other things...that could kill you.
10. Anything at a proper angle could fit this description, even a caterpillar.

These are all responses of equal logic, so what is your point? Some higher power had to create the banana? Then they took extra special care to single this fruit out above all others? The banana...proves NOTHING. It will convince people of nothing but craziness.

Onto the logical tests, awesome. I will however not single them out, but I will start my closing.

The truth is:

Atheists can't prove that there is no higher power, it would be illogical to firmly believe in NOTHING. At the very least, consider the fact that the actual universe is a living cycle that we are a part of. Strict and blind atheism, is in fact illogical. Agnostics stand on much more stable ground than Atheists.

Believers can't prove that there is a higher power. Any type of evidence or claim you could possibly bring up will forever be personal opinion or experience. You will never be able to prove it to another person in your life time without divine aid.

It's simple:
Atheists have no ammo against your faith, unless you buy into them. Believers have no ammo against atheists, unless they buy into you. No matter how much you argue or how many stupid questions are asked or stupid points that are attempted to be made, everyone loses in the end. It's time you have wasted, and will never get back.

I hope this isn't taken offensively.

I got lost with all the big words and scientific stuff

 

[Christ4Ever]

It can be seen through historical evidence that things constantly change over time.

Not within the same category unless it has mutated.

The Big Bang theory does not deny the existence of God or any other higher power or deity.

I agree with you here. My personal take on it is that it does confirm the possibility of God, which should be enough for the scientist to go hunting The Bible does say that the person who searches with all his heart to find God will be the one who does (Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.)

but I don't think that soul is really 'us'

That you acknowledge the existence of “soul” would mean you do have the ability to believe in the unseen and as of yet not quantified by man's science. There is hope for you yet

I am a seeker as to why other people believe. I am comfortable with my belief (or unbelief, as may be the case ), but I am open to the idea that I may one day convert. I do think however that is unlikely.

It’s not about converting at all. Don’t believe that science and God are not compatible. There are scientists’ out there who do believe in a God and whose science is not affected by this belief. Normally, the scientist that excludes “a possibility” from their science will be the one who may come to a flawed conclusion.

Also, I do believe in hope, which allows for “a possibility” that Jesus as seen through the eyes of a scientist, is very much possible, which also allows for the changing of your heart in believing

unreasonnable to assume that a slow build-up of change might lead to the massive complexity we see today?

Perhaps, however what about the complexity of a system that is already in place? Would I be wrong in stating that Darwin was of the belief that “simple to complex” was exactly what the evolutionary process was about and when our technology/knowledge increased this would be found to be so? Yet talk to a microbiologist and you will find that what you find is anything but simple, but rather a complex system already in place with no explanation on how this end was achieved since each piece requires the other pieces to function? Similar to the mouse trap theory except with increased complexity.

What is it about Atheists that threatens Christians? Their's is built on faith, just as the Christian.

No threat at all! Yet I would be of the belief that if I were unaware that I was walking towards a cliff instead of to the beach, that you would at least attempt to show me the error of my path. This would mean that you’d be doing it not for your own benefit (all things being equal), but for mine.

An old preacher once said that we should be throwing ourselves at the feet of the unbeliever as they walk themselves towards hell. My hope is that you don't trip over me.......Love you man, in fact I love everyone that calls himself an atheist.

 

[Fraction]

This is a great point, Fraction.

What is it about Atheists that threatens Christians? Their's is built on faith, just as the Christian.

There are a few factors or explanations as to why people feel threatened or challenged by atheism.

Persecution.

If atheists controlled the world and nearly everything in it (government wise, not by divine sources). Religious believers of all faiths would probably be laughed at and possibly even tormented. This is actually true for all religious beliefs as well. It is NOT the faith, but the actual person. So none of what I said relates to any teaching from the bible. I am pretty sure God would be against all kinds of persecution.

Fear of the unknown.

Since the beginning of time, man has sought for information about life after death and incarnation. We have achieved these goals through our faith and religious beliefs. However, what if atheists could debunk religion entirely? Currently with our scientific knowledge, we have no explanation for life after death and incarnation. We would have to just deal with it and constantly think about death and what happens afterwards. Everyone is a little afraid of the unknown, which is why everyone has their limits in it. An example of that is alien life on other planets in the universe. Some are afraid of that.

There are so many other factors I could include or think up, but I am sure with just these two you can see where I am going. I don't believe that it is a "hate" thing when it comes to religion vs atheism. It is fear, from both sides. This explains why they can't really live in peace together.

I got lost with all the big words and scientific stuff

Not to mention it was a huge post lol.

Not within the same category unless it has mutated.

Correct, mutations are usually by force or by chance or randomness. I know that cancer cells are just mutated human cells. The cells can mutate randomly or be given a push by an outside force. UV rays provoke skin cancer and smoking provokes lung cancer. Just two examples. Evolution is natural phenomena.

Exactly. I find science to be proof of a higher power. To me that higher power is God. I believe that God is the creator, but He also created science. With all his creations so far are explanations. The rainbow is the perfect example of this. If we can explain how the rainbow works, who is to say that we can't explain how God created us or the universe?

 

[David777]

Hello Faction.

You said,

"Exactly. I find science to be proof of a higher power. To me that higher power is God. I believe that God is the creator, but He also created science."

How do you arrive at the idea that God created Science?

 

[Fraction]

You said,

"Exactly. I find science to be proof of a higher power. To me that higher power is God. I believe that God is the creator, but He also created science."

How do you arrive at the idea that God created Science?

The ultimate goal of science and it's purpose is to explain how and why something operates the way that it does. Also, it is designed to prove existence of a ton of things in the universe from atoms to actual planets and stars (astronomy). We can safely assume that God creates in one of these two ways: First: God imagines a goal, the produces this goal with whatever makes it possible in between without thinking of minor details producing an instant end result. Second: God imagines a goal and then build from the bottom up starting with every minor thing that is in the creation. Both of which still contain a why and how, one is simply an instant end result and the other is building to an end result. It doesn't matter which one is actually the way God creates because the end result will always be the same.

To rush to the point of what I am trying to explain directly, God made everything so that it works. God created everything down to the smallest building blocks. So in a way, God created the elements of science that we all learn about and use everyday. Some of our science are only theories and not ironclad, but a lot of it is actually proven.

I will give an example:

Science explains the rainbow as simple light reflecting off water and it making pretty colors (in simple terms lol). God created the rainbow in Genesis as a promise in the story of Noah and the Ark. Now, when God created the rainbow he either just did it or altered the actual cause and effect of light against water directly. Either way, something detailed changed and had an effect which was caused by Gods actions.

I hope this clears it up and explains a bit.

 

[s.i.e.]

Love you man, in fact I love everyone that calls himself an atheist.

I'm sorry: you love who? Also, you're saying I've called myself an atheist?

It is fear, from both sides. This explains why they can't really live in peace together.

I think you're right: it's fear. I'm just not entirely sure what there is to be fearful of, Christian to Atheist, or Atheist to Christian.

As for your idea of persecution, I'm not so sure. Firstly, it's unreasonable to think that either the Atheist or the Christian would "entirely" take over the world, and secondly, whatever persecution may be prevelant, it's already there (if it is at all) between the Christian and the Atheist. As for fear-of-the-unknown, you could be onto something there...but then again, what is the risk to the Christian who believes in something, when it may not be? If it turns out not to be, they have risked nothing...and in the mean time, the Faith of the Christian has other benefits, even if it be a placebo.

As for me, when it comes to the Atheist, I'm driven more by curiosity than fear.




edit: adding this..........

An old preacher once said that we should be throwing ourselves at the feet of the unbeliever as they walk themselves towards hell. My hope is that you don't trip over me

This is curious. I can't say I've never met such a person, but it's very fair to say I have nearly never met such a purely benevolent individual, whether Christian, or not. I mean, did Christ ever show such "desperation" like this, throwing ourselves at the feet of unbelievers, and all? He "laid his fleece out", that's for sure...but wasn't it out of faith and obedience to the Father, not matter what may come? No matter who may end up tripping, or not?

And what does this kind of desperate "saviour-like" action say? In my view, it says more about the believer than the unbeliever. And what drives such a believer, I'm not sure.

Think of Christ with the Pharisees: I don't think I ever saw him "throwing himself at their feet" in desperate attempt to save them. He simply called out their complete b.s., and left them in radio-silence afterwards. For them to decide. Or not.

We are only vessels. We cannot save. It's up to you if you want to trip over me, or not. I can't, and won't, own that.

 

[BCRE8TVE]

Fraction

Another attack on atheists? Really?

Thank you Fraction, for being an open and honest Christian. I can honestly say that from what internet forums I have read, to hear a Christian say this is most certainly an exception.

Evolution as an explanation of how we appeared has yet to actually be proven (the theory of how we pretty much evolved from monkies or some other lesser life-form. It is our most developed scientific explanation, and should not be looked at as "NOT possible". However, in this subject it would be easier to deal with the second belief of evolution that HAS been proven. It can be seen through historical evidence that things constantly change over time. Whether it be when adapting to world or climate changes, environment changes, etc etc etc. Our eyes are examples of this evolution. This is NOT mere chance, and it is not random. Evolution happens over a large amount of time, it is the same exact thing as the learning process from school or other activities. 2000 years ago, our eyes were probably less efficient and complex then they are now. Evolution is real and proven, just not to the point where it explains our existence.

Well, evolution doesn't attempt to explain where we came from in the very beginning. For that we have to look to abiogenesis. Evolution merely states that at some time in the past (I'm no anthropologist and don't know the exact dates, but the information is out there) that man and apes shared a common ancestor, whose population split. The plain-dwelling apes eventually evolved into Homo sapiens.
Also, evolution cannot and will never explain our existence. Science cannot explain our existence. That question is the domain of philosophy.

The banana...proves NOTHING. It will convince people of nothing but craziness.

THANK YOU!

Atheists can't prove that there is no higher power, it would be illogical to firmly believe in NOTHING. At the very least, consider the fact that the actual universe is a living cycle that we are a part of. Strict and blind atheism, is in fact illogical.

Atheists cannot prove there is no higher being. Correct.
However, atheists don't believe in nothing, they just don't believe in god.
I would like to know why you think strict and blind atheism is illogical. How is a purely natural explanation, devoid of supernatural, in any way illogical?



s.i.e.

What is it about Atheists that threatens Christians? Their's is built on faith, just as the Christian.

Actually s.i.e., theirs is built on lack of faith. Atheists don't believe something purely on faith.




Christ4ever

Not within the same category unless it has mutated.

I think it's safe to assume you are not the same as your parents. You have inherited their genetic material, but you are not the same. Some things change by mutations (on the long run it's the decisive factor) but on short notice the environment and your development are actually much more noticeable.

That you acknowledge the existence of “soul” would mean you do have the ability to believe in the unseen and as of yet not quantified by man's science. There is hope for you yet

Actually my point was I don't believe in souls, because it's extremely unlikely souls are as described by the Church. And even if souls did exist, the Church would be wrong, as souls would not contain our personality.

It's not about converting at all. Don’t believe that science and God are not compatible. There are scientists’ out there who do believe in a God and whose science is not affected by this belief. Normally, the scientist that excludes “a possibility” from their science will be the one who may come to a flawed conclusion.

Also, I do believe in hope, which allows for “a possibility” that Jesus as seen through the eyes of a scientist, is very much possible, which also allows for the changing of your heart in believing

Oh no, science and God are perfectly compatible. Science takes care of the material world, and God takes care of the spiritual realm. Absolutely no overlap or conflict.
Well, usually scientists exclude the very unlikely solutions. It's possible someone messed with their results to make it appear as though they do have results, but really, how likely is that?
I'm not denying Jesus' existence either. I'm just skeptic as to his claims and of his miracles, is all. Still, conversion is possible.

Perhaps, however what about the complexity of a system that is already in place? Would I be wrong in stating that Darwin was of the belief that “simple to complex” was exactly what the evolutionary process was about and when our technology/knowledge increased this would be found to be so? Yet talk to a microbiologist and you will find that what you find is anything but simple, but rather a complex system already in place with no explanation on how this end was achieved since each piece requires the other pieces to function? Similar to the mouse trap theory except with increased complexity.

What system was already in place with incredible complexity? Something cannot suddenly appear naturally incredibly complex, we will both agree it's so unlikely as to be impossible.
Talk to a microbiologist, and he will show you the incredible complexity of even simple organisms. Yet he will also show you how much more complex more advanced life forms are, along with an explanation of how you can go from complex to complex-er. The origin of the DNA and of the very simple mechanisms is an area overlapped both by abiogenesis and by evolution. Abiogenesis works from the very beginning, from simple chemicals, and evolution works backwards from the present day. One day, they might reach in the middle, and when they do, then we'll know.
Until then, saying 'We don't know how it happened, therefore God' is not an option. Intelligent design is no more science than astrology.

No threat at all! Yet I would be of the belief that if I were unaware that I was walking towards a cliff instead of to the beach, that you would at least attempt to show me the error of my path. This would mean that you’d be doing it not for your own benefit (all things being equal), but for mine.

Except for the fact the atheist knows he is on a beach with no cliffs. No 'atheist' map shows any cliff, and if there were, he would be able to see it, wouldn't it?
And of course, if the believer is rewarded with heaven for throwing himself at atheists, warning of the cliff, can we really assume he is really doing it out of the goodness of his heart?




Fraction

If atheists controlled the world and nearly everything in it (government wise, not by divine sources). Religious believers of all faiths would probably be laughed at and possibly even tormented. This is actually true for all religious beliefs as well. It is NOT the faith, but the actual person. So none of what I said relates to any teaching from the bible. I am pretty sure God would be against all kinds of persecution.

Why would atheists persecute believers? So long as believers do their things in private, and behave as any good citizen would, what reason would there be to persecute Christians? In Canada there is no such debate about atheists vs Christians, because it is such a non-issue. The only reason atheists lash out at believers in the States is because they are living under pressure from an incredibly faithful society.

However, what if atheists could debunk religion entirely? Currently with our scientific knowledge, we have no explanation for life after death and incarnation. We would have to just deal with it and constantly think about death and what happens afterwards.

I am an atheist, and yet I do not think about it constantly. I know one day I will die, and I will cease to exist. My organs will be donated to help save lives, as I would no longer need organs, and the rest of my body will be put to rest naturally, with no chemicals, to return to the earth the nutrients I have consumed.

An example of [the fear of the unknown] is alien life on other planets in the universe. Some are afraid of that.

You know, I had never thought about it that way. Some people are genuinely afraid of what's out in space? I never knew.

I don't believe that it is a "hate" thing when it comes to religion vs atheism. It is fear, from both sides. This explains why they can't really live in peace together.

Well, some Christians seem to hate atheists with a passion, even though atheists have never done anything to them. Can we blame atheists for pushing back?
They can live in peace. They do in most of the civilized world. Outside of the US, there is virtually NO atheist vs theist conflict.




s.i.e.

As for your idea of persecution, I'm not so sure. Firstly, it's unreasonable to think that either the Atheist or the Christian would "entirely" take over the world, and secondly, whatever persecution may be prevelant, it's already there (if it is at all) between the Christian and the Atheist. As for fear-of-the-unknown, you could be onto something there...but then again, what is the risk to the Christian who believes in something, when it may not be? If it turns out not to be, they have risked nothing...and in the mean time, the Faith of the Christian has other benefits, even if it be a placebo.

As for me, when it comes to the Atheist, I'm driven more by curiosity than fear.

^^This
Also, if you are curious, I have started a thread entitled 'Questions for atheists' in the morality and ethics section, if you would be interested to drop by and ask questions


Also, sorry all for the uber long post, I didn't have enough time to respond one at a time.
Peace, and take care!

 

[Christ4Ever]

you're saying I've called myself an atheist?

I must apologize that I inferred you to be atheist. By your profile that would be incorrect. Maybe, something which is not a Christian perhaps?

This is curious. I can't say I've never met such a person, but it's very fair to say I have nearly never met such a purely benevolent individual, whether Christian, or not. I mean, did Christ ever show such "desperation" like this, throwing ourselves at the feet of unbelievers, and all? He "laid his fleece out", that's for sure...but wasn't it out of faith and obedience to the Father, not matter what may come? No matter who may end up tripping, or not?

And what does this kind of desperate "saviour-like" action say? In my view, it says more about the believer than the unbeliever. And what drives such a believer, I'm not sure.

Think of Christ with the Pharisees: I don't think I ever saw him "throwing himself at their feet" in desperate attempt to save them. He simply called out their complete b.s., and left them in radio-silence afterwards. For them to decide. Or not.

We are only vessels. We cannot save. It's up to you if you want to trip over me, or not. I can't, and won't, own that.

You consider it “desperation” to throw oneself at the feet of another in the hope of saving them? If only more would be willing to do so! Would you do less for a family member or any loved one knowing that as a vessel it might be the avenue by which they are saved?

Christ may not have thrown Himself at the feet of the Pharisees, yet He died on the Cross for those same ones. Remember there were people who threw themselves at the feet of Jesus for relief! We should be more like the woman in Mark 7:25-30 or the man in Luke 9:38 to safe those we love. To be His children we should communicate that same love that took Him to the Cross and a willingness to do the same if called. That is what it says about a believer and hopefully communicates to the unbeliever this same love.
C4E

 

[s.i.e.]

Actually s.i.e., theirs is built on lack of faith. Atheists don't believe something purely on faith.

(I started responding here, but I'm going to respond in your other thread, because where I'm going with my response, really is a "question of atheists", which you've started a thread on!)

 

[s.i.e.]

Ok Christ4Ever: we can talk all day about the would-be's and should-be's...but tell me, do you lay down your life for those unbelievers on their ways towards hell? And also, how can you be so sure that they are, indeed, on their ways towards said feiry pit?

You are right: there were those who cast themselves at Jesus feet for relief. You or I would do the same, would you not? I know I would. At times, we'll do anything for relief. But you weren't talking about relief, you were referencing the idea of throwing yourself in the road to save a heretic from eternal damnation. This does not bring you any personal relief, seems to me.

Can you or I know, or judge, where one is headed in the afterlife?

Regarding your reference of the Greek Syrophoenician woman, or the begging man lobbying Jesus on behalf of his son: yes, I would do this any day for my own daughter or son, and that is something I can't explain except for Love. That said, these examples were to save a son or daughter from either personal or emotional/spiritual infirmities. They weren't based on someone making a judgement call on the eternal destiny of someone's soul. They were to bring relief to one's own family.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Can you or I know, or judge, where one is headed in the afterlife?

Do you believe in Jesus? Have you repented of your sins? That He died on the Cross and rose again on the third day? Can you say yes? If your answer is no, then it's pretty straight forward on where that person is heading. Takes almost the same amount of time I took to write this, to ask a person where they stand. Am I judging them? No. If you believe in the word of God as I do, then you already know all are guilty without exception. You might call that the arrogance of Christianity, but it’s not when it happens to be true.

Regarding your reference of the Greek Syrophoenician woman, or the begging man lobbying Jesus on behalf of his son: yes, I would do this any day for my own daughter or son, and that is something I can't explain except for Love. That said, these examples were to save a son or daughter from either personal or emotional/spiritual infirmities. They weren't based on someone making a judgement call on the eternal destiny of someone's soul. They were to bring relief to one's own family.

So how much greater is the need to warn, when it’s as you say their “eternal destiny” which is involved and not only passing afflictions? I tried to show that the love these family members were showing by their actions, must be ones shown by every Christians to all people, be they believers or not.

I don’t have to tell another Christian that I love them, nor am I in the expectation to hear the same from them. It won’t stop me from saying it from time to time, but because Jesus Christ is their Savior, as he is mine, I already know they do love me as I do them That’s the case even in the heated back and forth postings that occur from time to time. For someone who is not a believer, it’s easier to show this concept through family, because loving a stranger or even one who would do you harm is a foreign concept today, as it was over 2,000 years ago.

Ok Christ4Ever: we can talk all day about the would-be's and should-be's...but tell me, do you lay down your life for those unbelievers on their ways towards hell?

Is the servant greater than the master?

And the answer to the unanswered question is yes I love you too.
C4E
PS The answer to the question that brings up in your mind is no.

 

[Fraction]

I think you're right: it's fear. I'm just not entirely sure what there is to be fearful of, Christian to Atheist, or Atheist to Christian.

As for your idea of persecution, I'm not so sure. Firstly, it's unreasonable to think that either the Atheist or the Christian would "entirely" take over the world, and secondly, whatever persecution may be prevelant, it's already there (if it is at all) between the Christian and the Atheist. As for fear-of-the-unknown, you could be onto something there...but then again, what is the risk to the Christian who believes in something, when it may not be? If it turns out not to be, they have risked nothing...and in the mean time, the Faith of the Christian has other benefits, even if it be a placebo.

As for me, when it comes to the Atheist, I'm driven more by curiosity than fear.

When it comes to not knowing what exactly there is to fear, it then comes down to individuals. I think it is more about the question "What if" than any individual topic. The question of "what if" can spark a desire to understand, but it can also spark fear. Example: What if a meteorite hit the earth and ended life on it? At first this question seems a little harmless, but to much thought into it can strike fear of "the end" into people. I believe it works like this with thousands of topics, including belief in the divine.

When I spoke of persecution it was just an example, it was a thought, a "what if" that could scare. Persecution already exists and every faction is guilty of it. I once met a Pagan who was emotionally abused, harassed, and beaten by people of another faith including Christianity. Persecution is wrong no matter what side you're on, not just because it's cruel and unfair, but also because it is ineffective in proving your point and belief system. I also agree with you 100% when it comes to the placebo effect. I don't honestly care if my beliefs are real or not, because they aid me in becoming who I truly want to be. In a nutshell, I want to love MORE. I want to not judge people, and love my enemy.

I am also driven by curiosity.

Fraction
Thank you Fraction, for being an open and honest Christian. I can honestly say that from what internet forums I have read, to hear a Christian say this is most certainly an exception.


Well, evolution doesn't attempt to explain where we came from in the very beginning. For that we have to look to abiogenesis. Evolution merely states that at some time in the past (I'm no anthropologist and don't know the exact dates, but the information is out there) that man and apes shared a common ancestor, whose population split. The plain-dwelling apes eventually evolved into Homo sapiens.
Also, evolution cannot and will never explain our existence. Science cannot explain our existence. That question is the domain of philosophy.


THANK YOU!


Atheists cannot prove there is no higher being. Correct.
However, atheists don't believe in nothing, they just don't believe in god.
I would like to know why you think strict and blind atheism is illogical. How is a purely natural explanation, devoid of supernatural, in any way illogical?


Fraction Why would atheists persecute believers? So long as believers do their things in private, and behave as any good citizen would, what reason would there be to persecute Christians? In Canada there is no such debate about atheists vs Christians, because it is such a non-issue. The only reason atheists lash out at believers in the States is because they are living under pressure from an incredibly faithful society.


I am an atheist, and yet I do not think about it constantly. I know one day I will die, and I will cease to exist. My organs will be donated to help save lives, as I would no longer need organs, and the rest of my body will be put to rest naturally, with no chemicals, to return to the earth the nutrients I have consumed.


You know, I had never thought about it that way. Some people are genuinely afraid of what's out in space? I never knew.

I don't believe that it is a "hate" thing when it comes to religion vs atheism. It is fear, from both sides. This explains why they can't really live in peace together.

Well, some Christians seem to hate atheists with a passion, even though atheists have never done anything to them. Can we blame atheists for pushing back?
They can live in peace. They do in most of the civilized world. Outside of the US, there is virtually NO atheist vs theist conflict.


Also, sorry all for the uber long post, I didn't have enough time to respond one at a time.
Peace, and take care!

Check this out: In my personal belief my eternal security is locked in place. However, I am still her on this planet with everyone else. Let's face it, life IS NOT easy to get through all the way. There are constant struggles that we won't always be able to get through alone. It's 2012, it's about time that we learn from humanities errors in the past. We need to come together regardless of religious beliefs, race, and personality. It is nonsense to argue or fight over these things when we all have one thing in common: We are all in this together.

Very good point on evolution. I actually should be doing a little more research on it, because I only know the basics. I do agree and can see it doesn't try to explain our existence. Science can't explain this, at least not in humanities current stage.

I was actually going by definition, and don't mean to offend anyone. I actually probably over shot it. To say an atheist believes in no possibility of higher power was a bit much. I just separated it both by Atheism and Agnostic standings. So let me correct myself without branding people with titles and putting them in groups. It is illogical to strictly believe in nothing "bigger". Minus all of the situational and personal beliefs, I will explain why: Anything is possible. It is that simple. Don't doubt the mysteries of the universe, because there are probably billions of them.

I agree that this may be the case in the US actually. To be honest, there is NO reason for persecution. I actually don't think it's a good idea to even challenge directly someone else's beliefs. We should ask questions out of curiosity and display ours out in the open (if we want to), and respect others who do that. It is possible to live in peace, we just have to let the old ways of humanity die. We need to mature past this stage.

Oh "thinking about it constantly" was just an example that could be thrown into the fear category. This example wouldn't apply to everyone, but probably does exist somewhere in someone. You are not afraid, but the ones that have persecuted you or your friends and loved ones could and probably are. It originates with fear, of some or any type.

I didn't know if your response to my alien comment was sarcasm or not. I am going to address it as if it isn't though. Yes, a lot of people are afraid of what could possibly be out there. What if there is an alien race bend on supreme conquest? There would be war, a bad one. This is only an example of the unknown, there are so many more. You do seem like a free thinker, so I am more than positive you could think of some almost instantly.

I think it's all to blame sadly, the pusher and the push backer. I push back a lot, so I can't really say all too much lol. It's not who is right or wrong, but to me it's a bigger picture. The bigger picture says who cares who is right and wrong? Stop fighting! I also believe that the hate you speak of, originated with fear somewhere. It doesn't change the fact that there is hate, but it gives the hate a source.

I hope you could understand everything I said lol, it seems a bit jumbled.

 

[s.i.e.]

I would love to be laughing alongside you, but I seem to have missed the joke, in what you're referring to here:

The answer to the question that brings up in your mind is no.

Anyways...

As for your "acid test" you would use to determine someone's eternal fate, I'm just not so sure it's all that simple. You throw out some yes/no questions, and then make your call. If that works for you, then I envy this simple resolution that you have adopted. But I don't actually believe it's quite that cut and dry from our perspective, as fellow human-beings. (for God, it may be that cut and dry, I suppose, as he knows everything in our hearts!)

No, you've got to actually enter into relationship, in a trusted way, to even begin to have that conversation, much less, make a judgement call on your fellow man's eternal destiny, in my opinion! And for starters, it's a good thing to realize you're in the same boat as those you purport to save. And floating in the same pond, too.

It won’t stop me from saying it from time to time, but because Jesus Christ is their Savior, as he is mine, I already know they do love me as I do them

That's interesting. I'm not sure whether I simply don't believe you, or whether to conclude that your experience with Church and fellow Christians is simply worlds-apart for that which I have have personally experienced and witnessed, and continue to on an ongoing basis.

One of my favorite Christian books is Soul Survivor, by Phillip Yancey. The subtitle of that book reflects my own experience: "How my Faith Survived the Church".

It's a great read, if you have the time and inclination. Even made me cry. And that's saying something. Especially the chapter on Martin Luther King. Awesome stuff.

It's really the story of how Yancey saw Yahweh through 13 individuals, many of whom were not even professing Christians, yet God's handywork was plainly evident through these works of art, through the eyes of Yancey.

Now that's a testimony that I can relate to!

Is the servant greater than the master?

No. Is this a trick question?

And the answer to the unanswered question is yes I love you too.

I have no idea what you actually mean by this. I won't say thank you, because I don't really believe you know what you're talking about. But, perhaps, that's just me...

 

[BCRE8TVE]

When it comes to not knowing what exactly there is to fear, it then comes down to individuals. I think it is more about the question "What if" than any individual topic. The question of "what if" can spark a desire to understand, but it can also spark fear. Example: What if a meteorite hit the earth and ended life on it? At first this question seems a little harmless, but to much thought into it can strike fear of "the end" into people. I believe it works like this with thousands of topics, including belief in the divine.

When I spoke of persecution it was just an example, it was a thought, a "what if" that could scare. Persecution already exists and every faction is guilty of it. I once met a Pagan who was emotionally abused, harassed, and beaten by people of another faith including Christianity. Persecution is wrong no matter what side you're on, not just because it's cruel and unfair, but also because it is ineffective in proving your point and belief system. I also agree with you 100% when it comes to the placebo effect. I don't honestly care if my beliefs are real or not, because they aid me in becoming who I truly want to be. In a nutshell, I want to love MORE. I want to not judge people, and love my enemy.

I am also driven by curiosity.

The more I read, the more I see you truly are exceptional I'm not just flattering you because I want to win you over, but because I have hardly met any christian who was interested in reading more on evolution, and discussing so openly fear and religion and other topics.

To the fear reaction, I wonder why some people have that reaction and others don't. Is it the way they were raised? Is it the human condition? I wonder.

My own curiosity is piqued also If you openly admit you don't care about whether your beliefs are true or not, if it's just a placebo effect, then why believe? I'm not trying to deconvert you or anything, I'm just genuinely curious. I have never believed myself, despite 12 years in the catholic school.

I don't believe that it is a "hate" thing when it comes to religion vs atheism. It is fear, from both sides. This explains why they can't really live in peace together.

If I may, the only thing an atheist would fear from Christians would be persecution, alienation, rejection, and threats of bodily harm. There is no reason to fear Christians themselves. What is to fear is their possible reaction to knowing someone in their town is an atheist. Think about it, how many openly atheist people have you met in the street vs how many openly christian?

Check this out: In my personal belief my eternal security is locked in place.

If only the church could adopt this position as well. Unfortunately for them, that would mean people baptize, confirm, marry, and then live happily ever after without caring about their religion anymore, since they were already saved. That might be your belief, but it is not one the Holy See wants its converts to adopt.

However, I am still her on this planet with everyone else. Let's face it, life IS NOT easy to get through all the way. There are constant struggles that we won't always be able to get through alone. It's 2012, it's about time that we learn from humanities errors in the past. We need to come together regardless of religious beliefs, race, and personality. It is nonsense to argue or fight over these things when we all have one thing in common: We are all in this together.

I completely agree. It is unfortunate though for some like the Jehova Witnesses who believe that this world is a dying one, and that it will son be ended, that the Rapture is imminent, etc. I find it sad that people are deluded into thinking that this world, this life doesn't matter, that their eternal (after)life is what really matters, such as the mormons.

Very good point on evolution. I actually should be doing a little more research on it, because I only know the basics. I do agree and can see it doesn't try to explain our existence. Science can't explain this, at least not in humanities current stage.

If you have any questions about science, do ask! It would be my pleasure to help you! Science cannot explain our existence in a philosophical way, but evolution can account for our physical existence. It is simply because primates survived and some species evolved to be more intelligent. It eventually led to us.

I was actually going by definition, and don't mean to offend anyone. I actually probably over shot it. To say an atheist believes in no possibility of higher power was a bit much.

Well, actually, atheists do not believe in a higher power, and however much many would hate to admit it, it is impossible to disprove that some gods can exist, as many theists put God outside of science's reach. That however doesn't make God any more real than Bigfoot or Loch Ness however, so just because we can't disprove it doesn't mean it's worthy of our attention.

I just separated it both by Atheism and Agnostic standings. So let me correct myself without branding people with titles and putting them in groups.

The main accepted term of agnostic is someone who is unsure of their belief. I'm an atheist, since I know I do not believe.

It is illogical to strictly believe in nothing "bigger". Minus all of the situational and personal beliefs, I will explain why: Anything is possible. It is that simple. Don't doubt the mysteries of the universe, because there are probably billions of them.

Are you saying that not believing in God is illogical because anything is possible? I'm not sure I follow you here, and I don't want to misrepresent your argument.

I agree that this may be the case in the US actually. To be honest, there is NO reason for persecution. I actually don't think it's a good idea to even challenge directly someone else's beliefs. We should ask questions out of curiosity and display ours out in the open (if we want to), and respect others who do that. It is possible to live in peace, we just have to let the old ways of humanity die. We need to mature past this stage.

Well, challenging someone's belief is certainly not something to do, unless such belief is obviously used for wrong or causing pain, etc, but then again for some theists merely discussing about lack of religion is perceived as an attack on their beliefs. Even to the friendliest of atheists, this person will get mad at them. I'm not saying it's everyone, but it does happen, and it seems to be mostly in the south of the States.
As for displaying beliefs in the open, I just want to make the distinction between displaying (wearing a cross on a necklace, etc) and imposing, such as preaching on the streets with a megaphone.
Speaking of maturing, someone else noticed how much religion seems to want to make people infantile. God is always a fatherly figure, and we behave like unruly children. Also, many many adult Christians seem to admit to being children of God...

Oh "thinking about it constantly" was just an example that could be thrown into the fear category. This example wouldn't apply to everyone, but probably does exist somewhere in someone. You are not afraid, but the ones that have persecuted you or your friends and loved ones could and probably are. It originates with fear, of some or any type.

Oh ok, I get it. Hmmm, I wonder if this could somehow apply to creationists... No offence intended.

I didn't know if your response to my alien comment was sarcasm or not. I am going to address it as if it isn't though. Yes, a lot of people are afraid of what could possibly be out there. What if there is an alien race bend on supreme conquest? There would be war, a bad one. This is only an example of the unknown, there are so many more. You do seem like a free thinker, so I am more than positive you could think of some almost instantly.

It wasn't, it was honest surprise. Now I do see what you mean. Many people who know a lot about microbiology and immunology (bugs, bacteria, viruses and our bodies) are very afraid about what some new unknown disease could do to us. Quite rightly so I must say.
I'm surprised though that people could worry over something so unlikely as an alien invasion though. If only they knew the distances involved in space, they would be a lot less afraid.
Also, let's not be afraid of terms, I'm an atheist There's nothing wrong with that. I am somewhat on the fence about words like Freethinker, Bright, etc, because I think they're mainly euphemisms for people who don't want to be associated with the negative connotation of the word 'atheist'

I think it's all to blame sadly, the pusher and the push backer. I push back a lot, so I can't really say all too much lol. It's not who is right or wrong, but to me it's a bigger picture. The bigger picture says who cares who is right and wrong? Stop fighting! I also believe that the hate you speak of, originated with fear somewhere. It doesn't change the fact that there is hate, but it gives the hate a source.

You push back? Does this mean you are a freethinker? Just curious.
I do agree when the push-baker becomes the pusher. However, sometimes it is necessary, as some will continue to push no matter what. So long as pushing and pushing back meet in the middle of what is right and fair, it isn't so bad.
I agree with you about the fear part. Many organized religions do seem to instill fear in their followers. Not saying atheists are immune to fear, but I do believe it's a much more immediate and real fear of possible harm and rejection.

I hope you could understand everything I said lol, it seems a bit jumbled.

No problem!

Although if you wish to organize your posts like I do mine, you can type the quote function manually.
Just type QUOTE in square brackets [], like [ QUOTE ], but without the spaces, then [ /QUOTE ] to end the quote.

This is what it looks like without the spaces

Just type QUOTE in square brackets [], like

, but without the spaces, then

to end the quote.

Hope this helps, and take care!