The Atheist Test

[dannibear]

An attack on Atheism? I don't see that at all.
What I DO see is another article providing
evidence as to why the world and everything in it
was made by an intelligent being and not just
from a random order. I would hope that when
someone asks me why I believe in Christ, I would
have evidence as well. Providing evidence
and knowledge is not an attack.

 

[BCRE8TVE]

An attack on Atheism? I don't see that at all.
What I DO see is another article providing
evidence as to why the world and everything in it
was made by an intelligent being and not just
from a random order. I would hope that when
someone asks me why I believe in Christ, I would
have evidence as well. Providing evidence
and knowledge is not an attack.

So the fact he insinuated that people who do not believe in intelligent design are fools, that he purposefully misquotes Darwin, and satirized evolution in a way to make people who believe in it look like fools is in no way an attack on atheism? I beg to differ. Chad's main purpose didn't seem to be mainly to provide evidence, but to paint atheists in a negative way. I can easily provide evidence without belittling people who disagree with me.

While he does make some interesting points, most of them can be refuted without too much effort. I would not use most of these against an intelligent person.

 

[Fraction]

The more I read, the more I see you truly are exceptional I'm not just flattering you because I want to win you over, but because I have hardly met any christian who was interested in reading more on evolution, and discussing so openly fear and religion and other topics.

I am not just a fan of Jesus Christ and life, but a fan of knowledge. With knowledge comes great power, and power comes the ability to change the world and influence it. Imagine if every single person on earth learned from the mistakes from past civilizations? In my personal opinion we have come a long way, but we NEED to go further. It is time we changed through knowledge and stopped senseless persecution and war.

To the fear reaction, I wonder why some people have that reaction and others don't. Is it the way they were raised? Is it the human condition? I wonder.

Why some do and others don't comes down to personality and personal strength. Take relationships for example. A relationship becomes a support system in most cases. Some people are okay without this, so when the relationship ends they are fine. The others however lose that support system that they hung onto so dearly, and are left with feeling like they have nothing. This is just an example, because not every single person falls into the categories listed above. I also think it could have something to do with both the human condition and how we are raised.

My own curiosity is piqued also If you openly admit you don't care about whether your beliefs are true or not, if it's just a placebo effect, then why believe? I'm not trying to deconvert you or anything, I'm just genuinely curious. I have never believed myself, despite 12 years in the catholic school.

I get this question a lot from friends actually. I follow Christianity because it is my first discovered religion, it is what I was raised with. I also want to be more like the traits mentioned in the bible, two mostly. I would like to become more patient, to control my emotions. I want to lash out in anger, sadness, and jealousy much much less then I currently do. I also want to love more than I do now, and eliminate a lot of hate and anger with others in my life. Personal goals that I have set, and my personal beliefs and faith help me progress to these goals.

If I may, the only thing an atheist would fear from Christians would be persecution, alienation, rejection, and threats of bodily harm. There is no reason to fear Christians themselves. What is to fear is their possible reaction to knowing someone in their town is an atheist. Think about it, how many openly atheist people have you met in the street vs how many openly christian?

I agree with you. Atheists do get treated like that, along with other belief systems and homosexuals. I personally don't think it matters where it started and who did what first, but it matters when it ends (off subject lol). I have met a lot of both. Most of it actually online, instead of in person or on the street. Which does make a lot of difference, people tend to be more shy in person about their beliefs.

If only the church could adopt this position as well. Unfortunately for them, that would mean people baptize, confirm, marry, and then live happily ever after without caring about their religion anymore, since they were already saved. That might be your belief, but it is not one the Holy See wants its converts to adopt.

I recently posted a video, and you can find the post or search google for it. Search for "Why I hate religion, but love Jesus". It might not be your thing, but it opened me up a little bit. To each their own, but I don't see a reason to fall in line with a denomination to live happy or be straight with my God. I refuse to follow blindly into line, I am my own person.

I completely agree. It is unfortunate though for some like the Jehova Witnesses who believe that this world is a dying one, and that it will son be ended, that the Rapture is imminent, etc. I find it sad that people are deluded into thinking that this world, this life doesn't matter, that their eternal (after)life is what really matters, such as the mormons.

I dislike end time talk SO much. Look at how much damage it has done and how many lives it has ruined. Just research Harold Camping, and it sums it all up. In whatever belief, when the world ends someone somewhere is going to suffer badly, why look forward to something like that? In Christianity God doesn't even look forward to the suffering of his enemies, why should we? When it comes to thing biblical, the end will be a bad time for everyone. I also agree with you that life here isn't meaningless either. We have a short time here, we should make the best of it and do what makes us happy. We should focus ourselves on doing great things. Inventing, discovering, breaking records, and so much more. So much to do, and so little time. Don't take power from yourself, just because there is something out there bigger than you.

If you have any questions about science, do ask! It would be my pleasure to help you! Science cannot explain our existence in a philosophical way, but evolution can account for our physical existence. It is simply because primates survived and some species evolved to be more intelligent. It eventually led to us.

Thanks for the offer! I have been out of school for so long now, so I'm still not used to research lol. I get some things confused. Lets just hope when I go back to school I can catch up again.

Well, actually, atheists do not believe in a higher power, and however much many would hate to admit it, it is impossible to disprove that some gods can exist, as many theists put God outside of science's reach. That however doesn't make God any more real than Bigfoot or Loch Ness however, so just because we can't disprove it doesn't mean it's worthy of our attention.



The main accepted term of agnostic is someone who is unsure of their belief. I'm an atheist, since I know I do not believe.



Are you saying that not believing in God is illogical because anything is possible? I'm not sure I follow you here, and I don't want to misrepresent your argument.

I need to clarify a little more, and stop targeting certain factions lol. It is illogical to deny possibility all together. The difference between open-minded and closed minded. Both of them have negative and positive benefits, but being open-minded has more of a chance to change others around you and slowly the world. We should always hold fast in what we believe in, but we cross the line when we demand viciously that our way is right and your way is wrong. This becomes more of an issue without proof or evidence, which atheists and all believers have none to show each other when it comes to the existence of a higher power.

Well, challenging someone's belief is certainly not something to do, unless such belief is obviously used for wrong or causing pain, etc, but then again for some theists merely discussing about lack of religion is perceived as an attack on their beliefs. Even to the friendliest of atheists, this person will get mad at them. I'm not saying it's everyone, but it does happen, and it seems to be mostly in the south of the States.
As for displaying beliefs in the open, I just want to make the distinction between displaying (wearing a cross on a necklace, etc) and imposing, such as preaching on the streets with a megaphone.
Speaking of maturing, someone else noticed how much religion seems to want to make people infantile. God is always a fatherly figure, and we behave like unruly children. Also, many many adult Christians seem to admit to being children of God...

It's easy for people to get so offended and go on the offensive. This is just one of those things that people should focus on changing. Not to mention the fact that arguments are no way to prove your point or to display your beliefs in an effective way. What part of "you're an idiot for believing in a higher power" sounds appealing? What part of "you're going to suffer an eternity in hell" sounds appealing? I wouldn't want to be influenced by any of those statements. I think it's okay for God to be a fatherly figure actually. There are a lot of good morals we can learn from the bible. I would never want to murder or steal from someone, or break the heart of someone I truly love on earth. I think everyone should not be afraid to openly state what they believe in and who they are. Beauty will forever be being true to yourself and real.

Oh ok, I get it. Hmmm, I wonder if this could somehow apply to creationists... No offence intended.

It applies to everyone, no matter how emotionally strong. Fear is the root for a lot of humanities decisions and emotions. This is a topic where we aren't separated but brought together as humans.

It wasn't, it was honest surprise. Now I do see what you mean. Many people who know a lot about microbiology and immunology (bugs, bacteria, viruses and our bodies) are very afraid about what some new unknown disease could do to us. Quite rightly so I must say.
I'm surprised though that people could worry over something so unlikely as an alien invasion though. If only they knew the distances involved in space, they would be a lot less afraid.
Also, let's not be afraid of terms, I'm an atheist There's nothing wrong with that. I am somewhat on the fence about words like Freethinker, Bright, etc, because I think they're mainly euphemisms for people who don't want to be associated with the negative connotation of the word 'atheist'

Another fantastic example IS unknown and strange diseases. Tons of movies have been made about this too! I targeted aliens because I am a big Halo and Mass Effect fan, so it's what I had more experience with in explaining. However, I have seen and met people who believed in the possibility of an alien invasion or hostile contact with alien lifeforms. It sounds a bit out there to me, but who really knows? The universe is massive! I'm more worried about more important things though, like living my life and not the end of it.

You push back? Does this mean you are a freethinker? Just curious.
I do agree when the push-baker becomes the pusher. However, sometimes it is necessary, as some will continue to push no matter what. So long as pushing and pushing back meet in the middle of what is right and fair, it isn't so bad.
I agree with you about the fear part. Many organized religions do seem to instill fear in their followers. Not saying atheists are immune to fear, but I do believe it's a much more immediate and real fear of possible harm and rejection.

I try to push back with rational arguments or debates. In a way I am somewhat of a free thinker, because I try not to allow the things that other people say to influence my views. At the same time I try to see their views and understand them as best as I can. I agree that pushing back is sometimes needed, but it's sad that the situation has gotten that far. Why feel the need to push people hard enough to where they demand you to leave them alone or to stop because they feel threatened? True at fear of harm and rejection, which is being seen a lot in the states lately. It's not just for beliefs either, but lifestyles as well.

An attack on Atheism? I don't see that at all.
What I DO see is another article providing
evidence as to why the world and everything in it
was made by an intelligent being and not just
from a random order. I would hope that when
someone asks me why I believe in Christ, I would
have evidence as well. Providing evidence
and knowledge is not an attack.

Why exactly do you not see it as an assault on atheism? The topic has a title with the word Atheist in it. Then, without knowing what the theories are it seems, the poster challenges them blindly. This accuses atheists of having the beliefs in logical theories, and then challenging both together. It is an assault. Why do you see the article as evidence, when it debunks itself by simple lack of knowledge that the poster has about the big bang theory and evolution? Close understanding of both theories will tell you that it is not "random order" it is a very slow process that took an unreal amount of time. Time that we can possibly put a number on, but can never comprehend. I would hope that if someone asked me why I believe in Christ I won't try to find evidence that doesn't exist, and declare why I actually do believe in Jesus. Providing evidence and knowledge isn't an attack, providing false or situational evidence is.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I would love to be laughing alongside you, but I seem to have missed the joke, in what you're referring to here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
The answer to the question that brings up in your mind is no.

It follows the last entry if you see it in worldly man to man sort of way (Go to last entry in this post, to tie it all together)

As for your "acid test" you would use to determine someone's eternal fate, I'm just not so sure it's all that simple. You throw out some yes/no questions, and then make your call. If that works for you, then I envy this simple resolution that you have adopted. But I don't actually believe it's quite that cut and dry from our perspective, as fellow human-beings. (for God, it may be that cut and dry, I suppose, as he knows everything in our hearts!)

No, you've got to actually enter into relationship, in a trusted way, to even begin to have that conversation, much less, make a judgement call on your fellow man's eternal destiny, in my opinion! And for starters, it's a good thing to realize you're in the same boat as those you purport to save. And floating in the same pond, too.

If you believe in the inerrancy of scripture it is quite simple and clear cut. Believe you are saved; don’t believe you are not. This “simple solution” I don’t take author ship of but do accept as truth as being in God’s word to man. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I determine no one’s eternal fate yet will not be shy about stating that unless they believe then it is pretty clear what their destiny will be. Who knows what tomorrow may bring in someone’s life? Therein is my hope as should yours be for all those who do not believe. That’s why we put ourselves out there as believers, every day for His Glory that none may perish. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yet if one were to die in the state they are in “in grace” or “in sin” then wouldn’t you say their end is determined as outlined in scripture?

Maybe I’m wrong here, but you seem to mention “relationship” as if this supersedes the truth of scripture when it comes to those saved or not and their “eternal destiny”. Is there scripture that states, once you have a “relationship” with God that scripture takes a back seat or somehow provides one with clarity which is different to what He has already given to us in scripture when it comes to salvation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
It won’t stop me from saying it from time to time, but because Jesus Christ is their Savior, as he is mine, I already know they do love me as I do them
That's interesting. I'm not sure whether I simply don't believe you, or whether to conclude that your experience with Church and fellow Christians is simply worlds-apart for that which I have have personally experienced and witnessed, and continue to on an ongoing basis.

Sometimes I’ve found it comes down to how we see love and how we ourselves communicate it. The best way I’ve seen it outside of John 3:16, is as a parent, brother and sister. The love I feel for them and hopefully them for me, is not driven by what is said or done. This doesn’t mean acceptance of wrongful behavior, rather in spite of that behavior I still will feel and attempt to communicate the love for them that I would have to a family member.

I can agree with you that the church and those who profess to be Christians as well as those who are, at times reflect something different. Remembering we’re not perfect (yet), I’m just not going to allow myself to be governed by their behavior or the behavior of the church. If I see it, I’ll speak out about it, or take it upon myself to go to the person and show, whether it’s with a smile, “Hi how are you?” or a hug, or just sit down and listen, that we’re really a loving people.

One of my favorite Christian books is Soul Survivor, by Phillip Yancey. The subtitle of that book reflects my own experience: "How my Faith Survived the Church".

It's a great read, if you have the time and inclination. Even made me cry. And that's saying something. Especially the chapter on Martin Luther King. Awesome stuff.

It's really the story of how Yancey saw Yahweh through 13 individuals, many of whom were not even professing Christians, yet God's handywork was plainly evident through these works of art, through the eyes of Yancey.

The eyes of Yancey? Is this the same person when asked about the ordaining gay and lesbian ministers stated the following: “When it gets to particular matters of policy, like ordaining gay and lesbian ministers, I’m confused, like a lot of people. There are a few---not many, but a few---passages of Scripture that give me pause. Frankly, I don’t know the answer to those questions.” Interview by Candace Chellew-Hode with Philip Yancy, “Amazed by Grace”

He might be confused, but anyone who knows a little of scripture, which I assume he does from his statement should not be. To state it as "policy" as well leaves me question what truth he holds to.

How about this one for moving away from the great commission into one that the world finds acceptable: “Perhaps our day calls for a new kind of ecumenical movement: not of doctrine, not even of religious unity, but one that builds on what Jews, Christians, and Muslims hold in common…Indeed, Jews, Christians, and Muslims have much in common." “Hope for Abraham’s Sons” (Christianity Today)

“Not of doctrine” he says? Why can’t we just focus on the good things in each other rather than the bad? He makes me cry as well! Cry for those he would mislead, by his watered downed doctrine which has no foundation in scripture.

Now that's a testimony that I can relate to!

We each have our own testimony, which should be about repentance, and salvation! I don’t need to “relate” to find great joy in one who believes testimony. That God’s Great Mercy has once again been manifested in the testimony is enough for me. I just pray that I may be the vessel by which testimonies of His Mercy and Love may also be spoken of by others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
Is the servant greater than the master?
No. Is this a trick question?

No trick question. Just a simple response to what you had replied to what I had said. To show the need to accept God’s will as foundational in my life. Can’t say I’m not like Jonah at times, but then you know what I’m saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christ4Ever View Post
And the answer to the unanswered question is yes I love you too.
I have no idea what you actually mean by this. I won't say thank you, because I don't really believe you know what you're talking about. But, perhaps, that's just me...

In case you doubted my intent, even if you or I don’t agree on everything.

 

[s.i.e.]

Maybe I’m wrong here, but you seem to mention “relationship” as if this supersedes the truth of scripture when it comes to those saved or not and their “eternal destiny”. Is there scripture that states, once you have a “relationship” with God that scripture takes a back seat or somehow provides one with clarity which is different to what He has already given to us in scripture when it comes to salvation?

I'm no apologist, or textual critic, but seems to me, that is essentially what the entire New Testament is about. That is what Jesus offered, which was so completely other than what we knew prior to Jesus coming down to this big blue marble we call earth.

So, yeah, definitely. Relationship is the point of things. No, Jesus did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it...but how is it fulfilled? All things are fulfilled, and come into place through Jesus. And, we know Him only through relationship.

I may not use the word "supersede", but truthfully, that might not be a bad description of it. Jesus, and relationship with Him, is the gate that we must pass in order for the Law to be fulfilled, obeyed, lived-out, and evident, in our lives. Scripture does not take a "back-seat", as you say, to all of this...but relationship is the only way, and only chance, we'll have -- EVER -- of making it relevant, to the lives we live.

Hope that clarifies for you.

If I see it, I’ll speak out about it, or take it upon myself to go to the person and show, whether it’s with a smile, “Hi how are you?” or a hug, or just sit down and listen, that we’re really a loving people.

I don't understand the "we're really a loving people" comment. Do you represent the Church, at large? Do you feel an obligation to cause the sinners and hypocrites (me included) that sit in the pews on any given Sunday morning, to be viewed in a favorable light? Do you work for the P.R. department of a denomination, or mega-church?

I would assume you intend to represent Christ, and in doing so, showing the glorious work He alone could have done through the wreck of your own life, and the course that you would be traveling down if you and you alone were in the control seat.

Those are the testimonies that touch me. Those are the ones that cause me to see Christ, and not the ego of the individual telling it.

Any time I see someone trying to put lipstick on a pig, it just looks like an uglier pig, to me...if you know what I mean.

The eyes of Yancey? [enter various op-ed comments surrounding how one might go about judging Yancey and his lack of truth and unscripturally unsupported stances on doctrine, etc., etc., etc.]

Oh, I see, Philip Yancey has become an invalid and unwelcome voice to you, because you have already judged him in such a way that causes you to believe you have nothing to learn there.

You either don't agree with him (and also conclude that you're right, and he's wrong), or you are too challenged by him, such that it's simply easier to stay in your box. The idea that Yancey may not be completely black-and-white when it comes to certain doctrinal beliefs, is perhaps offensive to you?

That, to me, is not a uniquely Christian response...yet, is fairly typical among Christians (in my experience), and sadly so.

Indeed, going ad-hominen on Yancey allows you to write-him-off, and not ask any secondary or tertiary questions of yourself. It is quite safe, for you.

But then again, you know the answers, and you know Yancey is wrong!

Let me re-cant my original recommendation to you, and I'll now say that I highly recommend that you don't read Soul Survivor. Not only is it written by someone you doctrinally have written off as some color of heretic, but also, he writes about these 13 individuals who have shaped his Faith in Jesus Christ, and many of those individuals are not even the kind of "Christians" who would fit nicely into your box, Christ4Ever.

Skip it, save yourself some grief, and stay in your safe box. You apparently seem to be fairly happy there.

We each have our own testimony, which should be about repentance, and salvation! I don’t need to “relate” to find great joy in one who believes testimony.

Please don't tell me about what my testimony should be about. You know, One Vine, many branches, and all? It's a good thing, actually...

That God’s Great Mercy has once again been manifested in the testimony is enough for me. I just pray that I may be the vessel by which testimonies of His Mercy and Love may also be spoken of by others.

So, your prayer is that you may be be the vessel that is spoken of in other people's testimonies? Makes me curious why this is a prayer of yours, and what motives lie behind this...but that aside, I've found in life that I often look back on things, and think it may have been a good idea to have been careful for what I wished for. Much of the time, I may actually get what I want...but in such a different way than I would have imagined! Usually, God's fingerprint is written all over it...but often, for the benefit of a lesson being taught to me that I needed the thing done!

May your lessons be learned with tenderness, grace, and love, and accepted willingly by you, with grateful response. Amen

In case you doubted my intent, even if you or I don’t agree on everything.

Doubted your intent? Well, of course, this is where I don't/can't truly know your heart, and you may only have a glimpse of it, on your best day. Hence, my question to you, of what you think you really mean by this, when you say something so bold and profound as I LOVE YOU, especially to someone like me, who you don't know, except for a few online interactions.

It's a wildly unimaginable thing for me to believe you know what you're talking about here. Either that, or, there's just something I simply don't get.

And knowing my history, I'll probably be well served to bet on the latter, not the former.

I've got a lot to learn.

 

[David777]

Hello dannibear.

Good to see you having a shot in a very tough area.

You used the term "random order".

If you study probability at a higher level the concept
of randomness is difficult to define. Science has been
unable to construct a random number generator.

There is always a sequence, order or repetition.

It may be impossible to devise such a device or program.

We have enough trouble even trying to understand
what randomness means.

 

[BCRE8TVE]

If I may, it is not impossible to build a true random generator. We just can not be 100% sure the generator is completely random. At other times, the random generator will at times generate a series of numbers, which taken on their own, is completely non-random, but in the whole, is random. I'm sure you've heard of monkeys typing on keyboards for infinity would write some Shakespeare, no?
ht tp:// ww w. bbc. co. uk/ news/technology-15060310
Notice the mathematician said that if the programmer held onto the evolutionary approach of holding on to the correct guesses, he would complete the task within a reasonable amount of time. But there is always a possibility, that with an infinite amount of keyboards and an infinite amount of time, one COULD recreate Shakespeare's work.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm no apologist, or textual critic, but seems to me, that is essentially what the entire New Testament is about. That is what Jesus offered, which was so completely other than what we knew prior to Jesus coming down to this big blue marble we call earth.

So, yeah, definitely. Relationship is the point of things. No, Jesus did not come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill it...but how is it fulfilled? All things are fulfilled, and come into place through Jesus. And, we know Him only through relationship.

I may not use the word "supersede", but truthfully, that might not be a bad description of it. Jesus, and relationship with Him, is the gate that we must pass in order for the Law to be fulfilled, obeyed, lived-out, and evident, in our lives. Scripture does not take a "back-seat", as you say, to all of this...but relationship is the only way, and only chance, we'll have -- EVER -- of making it relevant, to the lives we live.

Hope that clarifies for you.

Not new to us We really can’t even begin to feel that somehow we have experienced the change the people of that time felt, when Jesus arrived. We are already holders of His Words. They had an expectation of His arrival (some) but little else on what to expect, except for the throwing off of the chains of Rome that were binding them in those days. They were living it and knew nothing else except of the myriad of other gods the different nations had. No so for us. If we were to just look at Jesus historically then that is all we will get is a history lesson. Much of what they had in OT spoke of the very same concepts He spoke of. They just were never applied continuously from one generation to the next as originally communicated. They added to what God had given them, similar to what we are going through now in Christianity with the NT.

You never actually answered the prime question on this point which was. Yet if one were to die in the state they are in, those being “in grace” or “in sin” then wouldn’t you say their end is determined by scripture? I guess I should have said as stated “in” scripture?

Some of what you’ve written has given me pause and me curious. I wonder if you could answer a question if you don’t mind. Do you believe in a Christ consciousness that anyone can attain two way communications with God regardless of their belief system?

I don't understand the "we're really a loving people" comment. Do you represent the Church, at large? Do you feel an obligation to cause the sinners and hypocrites (me included) that sit in the pews on any given Sunday morning, to be viewed in a favorable light? Do you work for the P.R. department of a denomination, or mega-church?

LOL Sorry couldn’t help it. I get that reaction a lot even in my church! I truly believe in “love the sinner, hate the sin”. The ones in the pews I should hope are my brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers in Christ Jesus. However, even if they aren’t it doesn’t change my love for them. Should I view them or you as a pitiful creature deserving of damnation and eternal torment instead? I apologize for that, I have a hard time reconciling the first part of what you’ve written with this half.

You mean to have a Relationship with Christ, but none with those who are in the same boat as us? You question the ability to view sinners in a favorable light? Nope, as you, especially know where we came from, should soften our hearts to their plight. It’s kind of like “been there, done that”, and it wasn’t good, so I can appreciate in my case that one loving Christian took the time to invite me and a roommate to hear the word of God. There were others there who may or may not have been believers. As you say, can we see into the heart of person, to know for sure? Still this one believer stepped forward, when no one else did. Therein lays the true relationship with Christ, which is to do what He said, not just take a walk in the park with Him.

What revelation is it that you seek that He hasn’t already provided to us in scripture? Or is it guidance in everyday affairs? Like, Lord should I take this job or not? Is this the ministry for me or not? Is that what we’re talking about here? The monks isolated themselves in monasteries and dedicated their lives to knowing God on a different level. Were they doing God’s will by doing this? Deeper then I wanted to go and not quite sure it’s where you are, or where you’re heading.

Oh and by the way I don’t work for a P.R. Department of a denomination, or mega-church, or even an iddy biddy we hold services in some ones house church either

I would assume you intend to represent Christ, and in doing so, showing the glorious work He alone could have done through the wreck of your own life, and the course that you would be traveling down if you and you alone were in the control seat.

Horrible the way you describe it! Yikes I wouldn’t want that job, would you? To the unbeliever yes, because they might know how bad off they really are. To the believer I'd say no. They already know the price that was paid for them and the awfulness of their previous existence.

However, if I knew their testimony, I might remind them of it!

That moment when you are called! I would call that a “WOW” moment. Words fail to truly describe it. Thank-you my brother! For reminding me of my own testimony. It still boggles my mind that He choose me, an unworthy servant that I am!

Those are the testimonies that touch me. Those are the ones that cause me to see Christ, and not the ego of the individual telling it.

That’s why I ask people to write down their testimony. When one reads what they have said, it becomes clearer to them who has actually done the work here.

Any time I see someone trying to put lipstick on a pig, it just looks like an uglier pig, to me...if you know what I mean.

Yeah bacon! More times than not it just makes me sad, that somehow they believe that is what God wants of them.

Oh, I see, Philip Yancey has become an invalid and unwelcome voice to you, because you have already judged him in such a way that causes you to believe you have nothing to learn there.

His words speak for themselves. Just came across his name when I was doing some research on the Emergent Church, and Contemplative Spirituality movement about 3-4 years ago. I made a note on his comments, and figured someone who would be wishy washy on scripture and homosexuality, should be marked with “Handle with Care” warning label. You just happened to “crack the seal” that’s all.

You either don't agree with him (and also conclude that you're right, and he's wrong), or you are too challenged by him, such that it's simply easier to stay in your box. The idea that Yancey may not be completely black-and-white when it comes to certain doctrinal beliefs, is perhaps offensive to you?

It’s not about me being right and him being wrong. It’s about following a man who is supposed to be knowledgeable in scripture but accommodates what the interviewer or people want to hear instead of what scripture actually says. As far as being offensive to me, it should be offensive to anyone who believes in the inerrancy of scripture. Otherwise, we just pick and choose what is acceptable, and downplay the other stuff that doesn’t jive with our modern society and in so doing “get our ears itched”. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

I could understand if the concept in the question was deep as in attempting to explain the Trinity, but the immorality of homosexuality/lesbianism? When he states “a few passages that give him pause”. Egad S.I.E., enough passages to leave no doubt whether you look in the OT or NT, that God’s view on this is pretty consistent, unless it’s the individuals will that is important here and not God’s. In that case Mr. Yancy would be quite correct in what he stated.

That, to me, is not a uniquely Christian response...yet, is fairly typical among Christians (in my experience), and sadly so.

Indeed, going ad-hominen on Yancey allows you to write-him-off, and not ask any secondary or tertiary questions of yourself. It is quite safe, for you.

Typical, Typical! How dare you call me Typical! LOL (Sorry I’m on drugs for a sinus infection when I wrote this part which has a tendency to sense of humor go through the roof on these occasions.)

I don’t write him off at all, in fact as I’ve stated before “Handle with Care”. For someone who is a believer and trying to leave the homosexual/lesbian life style behind, it just makes it just that more difficult when you read a comment like Yancey made.

But then again, you know the answers, and you know Yancey is wrong!

When it comes to the two statements I relayed to you. YES! Be bold brother for God’s Word! Don’t let the perceived learning of folks hold you back from it. Knowledge doesn’t always translate to wisdom or truth. When in doubt, go to scripture. God does not lie. Unless you don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, in that case, pick what you will and follow the one who happens to tickle your fancy on any particular day. My suggestion, and suggestion only, is pray and hold to what scripture tells you is true. All else is vanity. Eccl 12:7-14

Let me re-cant my original recommendation to you, and I'll now say that I highly recommend that you don't read Soul Survivor. Not only is it written by someone you doctrinally have written off as some color of heretic, but also, he writes about these 13 individuals who have shaped his Faith in Jesus Christ, and many of those individuals are not even the kind of "Christians" who would fit nicely into your box, Christ4Ever.

Close call! I was afraid you were going to ask me to read the book! Thanks for not suggesting it.

My question would be is, why would I want to know about who shaped his faith when his faith in holding to the Word of God is so weak? Either I’ll learn that the 13 people mentioned either lead him the wrong way or he wasn’t listening and found what he wanted to find.

By the way if the box you say I’m in is created by God to His purpose then, I’m more than happy to be in it! Alleluia! Brother!

Skip it, save yourself some grief, and stay in your safe box. You apparently seem to be fairly happy there.

As you can tell I am more than happy in my God created box! “And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” Awesome! I wonder where MLK got that from? hummmm

Please don't tell me about what my testimony should be about. You know, One Vine, many branches, and all? It's a good thing, actually...

Was not telling you what your testimony should be about. Not at all brother. It’s your own, bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.

So, your prayer is that you may be be the vessel that is spoken of in other people's testimonies? Makes me curious why this is a prayer of yours, and what motives lie behind this...but that aside, I've found in life that I often look back on things, and think it may have been a good idea to have been careful for what I wished for. Much of the time, I may actually get what I want...but in such a different way than I would have imagined! Usually, God's fingerprint is written all over it...but often, for the benefit of a lesson being taught to me that I needed the thing done!

Maybe I kind of wrote that part in a way that made it seem that I wanted my name mentioned in the testimony. Actually, it was meant to convey to exact opposite.

When I bring something before God I ask for is normally that His will be done, but if He can make room to allow a healing, for someone else etc to be done, that would be awesome as well.

May your lessons be learned with tenderness, grace, and love, and accepted willingly by you, with grateful response. Amen

Thank-you and May I pray the same for you, if it is His will to be so. In the name of Jesus Christ I ask this. Amen, Amen, Amen!

Doubted your intent? Well, of course, this is where I don't/can't truly know your heart, and you may only have a glimpse of it, on your best day. Hence, my question to you, of what you think you really mean by this, when you say something so bold and profound as I LOVE YOU, especially to someone like me, who you don't know, except for a few online interactions.

It's a wildly unimaginable thing for me to believe you know what you're talking about here. Either that, or, there's just something I simply don't get.

And knowing my history, I'll probably be well served to bet on the latter, not the former.

I've got a lot to learn.

When it comes to love brother, I can only go by the example that Christ Jesus has given me and what changes the Holy Spirit has worked on me to date. We all have a lot to learn about a lot of things, and when it comes to God and Jesus, we who believe will have an eternity to do it!

When God who is Love told Moses when asked what He was to be called. He said what?

Love is not predicated on any exterior stimuli. Oh to Love like our Lord Loves!!!!!!

Love you Brother

 

[s.i.e.]

You never actually answered the prime question on this point which was. Yet if one were to die in the state they are in, those being “in grace” or “in sin” then wouldn’t you say their end is determined by scripture? I guess I should have said as stated “in” scripture?

Ok...sorry for not answering originally. I overlooked the question originally.

You're asking a question that touches on multi-century-old, if not multi millenium old theological debates. You know, the 5th point of Calvinism, etc: once saved / always saved? Can you lose your salvation? etc.

And to that end, I won't dare guess. If you're "in sin" on the day you die, but you've accepted Christ, where do you go? Ah...that's all above my pay grade.

But, if this helps: I do believe that Jesus Christ is the only gate by which one must enter in order to be saved. But even then, Matthew 7:21 adds a little ambiguity to even that: we don't simply get into Heaven by proclaiming the name of Jesus, right? You apparently have to do the will of the Father!

We all fall short. I do not dare even guess the eternal destiny of most human-beings. Again, that's far above my pay grade.

I wonder if you could answer a question if you don’t mind. Do you believe in a Christ consciousness that anyone can attain two way communications with God regardless of their belief system?

hmmm...I would like to answer your direct question with a direct answer, but "regardless of their belief system" leaves a lot of room, bro! I want to answer YES, but I'm not sure how widely you are wanting that phrase to be interpreted?

Yes, I believe God can be seen, and can speak to those around us, believers and non-believers alike. I also believe that anyone can talk to God (both believers and non-believers). If only believers could talk to God, then no one could ever be converted!! If God could only talk to believers, then no one would ever be able to have the chance of being drawn towards Him.

...but an ongoing, conversational, relational dialogue? This would generally be done by believers, in relational pursuit of their Maker.

Not sure if I've answered your question.

Still this one believer stepped forward, when no one else did. Therein lays the true relationship with Christ, which is to do what He said, not just take a walk in the park with Him.

That is awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I've had such folks in my life, from time to time, as well...and I have thanked God for them. I agree with you, this is demonstrative of a true relationship with Christ. They've been the hands and feet of Christ to me, over my years...

What revelation is it that you seek that He hasn’t already provided to us in scripture?

hmm...where are you wanting to go with this? Let's just say that between the scriptures and the Holy Spirit, we should have plenty...yet, we also need the input from others to help us see, hear, feel, believe...from time to time. As you eluded to, above.

So, we have it all...but we do not always see. We need others to help in this, God willing.

Thank-you my brother! For reminding me of my own testimony. It still boggles my mind that He choose me, an unworthy servant that I am!

You're welcome. Glad I could be of at least some help here!

I made a note on his comments, and figured someone who would be wishy washy on scripture and homosexuality, should be marked with “Handle with Care” warning label. You just happened to “crack the seal” that’s all.

I'm not sure what exact comment you read/heard Yancey say...but to chalk up the character of an individual based on a comment or two, I think, does a disservice to both you and the person in question.

I'm talking to myself as much as you or anyone else when I say this. I do this too. It's easy. It's human. It's easier to put folks into neat little boxes, and then choose to either ignore them, oppose them, or listen to them. Makes life work, you know?

But how much is missed / lost / skipped by this? Anyways...do what you will, but in Yancey's case, in my opinion, you're missing out on some very grand aspects of Christendom!

As far as being offensive to me, it should be offensive to anyone who believes in the inerrancy of scripture.

I believe the scriptures are inerrant also...but they are not static! The Word of God, and the Holy Spirit in our lives, are very dynamic, wouldn't you agree?

When he states “a few passages that give him pause”. Egad S.I.E., enough passages to leave no doubt whether you look in the OT or NT, that God’s view on this is pretty consistent,

This is but one problem I have with the Church: it has become a place where questions are not tolerated. Thoughts, challenged, personal hangups, or much that happens along the spiritual journey that we all are on, are simply not wanted. They are either vetted out and kicked to the sidewalk, or rejected outright. Regarded as heretical, or too dangerous to leave unaddressed.

I didn't read the transcript on Yancey that you seem to be able to recite...but in the quote above, it seems to me that Yancey has some outstanding questions on a few passages.

Haven't we all?

Is it ok to have a few questions outstanding, of God, our Faith, Jesus Christ, scriptural interpretations, etc? I can't know exactly what Yancey may be questioning here, when he says this...but you seem to feel you do? aarrgghhh.... I wish I knew as much as you on things...

For someone who is a believer and trying to leave the homosexual/lesbian life style behind, it just makes it just that more difficult when you read a comment like Yancey made.

I can totally respect and understand your wish to stay as far away from any "tolerance" on the issue of homosexuality, if this is a lifestyle you have come out of. That makes complete sense. And, if it's true, that Yancey is "soft" on this issue...then I can see why you would want to stay away from him.

I'm personally not so sure that he's "soft" on the issue, in the way that you may see him as...but of course, I may be wrong on that.

My suggestion, and suggestion only, is pray and hold to what scripture tells you is true. All else is vanity. Eccl 12:7-14

Great suggestion, and thanks for it. Love Eccl too...

Close call! I was afraid you were going to ask me to read the book! Thanks for not suggesting it.

Now hold on there a minute of two Christ4Ever, you're not off the hook yet: I've got an even better recommendation for you bro!

Go out TODAY, and run -- don't walk -- and buy and read Yancey's What's so Amazing About Grace.

Seriously. On this one, just lay down your Yancey hangups, and trust me on this one.

You can thank me later. And if you do happen to read it, I know you will.

My question would be is, why would I want to know about who shaped his faith when his faith in holding to the Word of God is so weak? Either I’ll learn that the 13 people mentioned either lead him the wrong way or he wasn’t listening and found what he wanted to find.

Ignoring your personal conclusion that Yancey's faith in God's Word is so weak (which I wholeheartedly will disagree with you on) --- why would someone want to know how Yancey's Faith was transformed by these 13 people?

Because it's his personal testimony, of how he could see God, find God, and strengthen his Faith in God....even in spite of the massive outright hypocrisy, abuse, pious self-righteousness, and personal degredation, that Yancey witnessed as a member of the Church(es) he grew up in, and the people that dressed the innards of those buildings.

And why would that speak to me? Because I can relate to that testimony too...as can, apparently, other massive constituencies of human-beings around you and I this very day.

The Church actually has a terrible record of showing grace, offering love, and showing Christ, to the world. Of course, it also has a side to it that shows the handiwork of Christ extremely well. So...it's both.

But, many in the Church vehemently opposed or even hated the likes of Martin Luther King, or Ghandi. Most Christians think Ghandi went to hell...and again, while I can't know this...the life Ghandi lived (whether or not he went to heaven or hell) has the essence of Christ all over it!! This is not an acceptable thought in traditional church folklore!!

It took those outside the Church to start the civil rights movement and free the slaves. But the Church authored the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and other various witch-hunts or heretic-torture methods, and numerous other holy wars.

Many people need to see the hand of God outside the Church, because the Church may be the single reason they are repelled from God. For these people, Soul Survivor is a jewel of a book. Perhaps this is so far from your own story, that you can't begin to relate. That may be a blessing for you.

By the way if the box you say I’m in is created by God to His purpose then, I’m more than happy to be in it! Alleluia! Brother!

Perhaps. But you know, we're sanctified daily, along the way. We die to ourselves, daily. And why? It's because we've brought alot of our own handiwork into these "boxes", that are our own. So...your box, or mine? They're the same, really. Both have some of our own crud inside of them that need to be dealt with by Christ, God willing.

At times, I'm also relatively pleased with my box...and at other times, I'm disgusted by where I find myself. Thank God for both responses, and may He finish the good work in me that He started!

“And you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” Awesome! I wonder where MLK got that from? hummmm

uhh...the Church. Why do you act like he "ripped it off" from the Church? MLK was a pastor. That said, he was largely rejected if not despised by the Church at-large, especially those in the Baptist Churches, especially in the South.

Again, Yancey has much to say about this in the MLK chapter of Soul Survivor, if you want to get a better sense for Church history as it relates to the Civil Rights movement. And the Church should be embarrassed about this. MLK got this from the Bible, because he preached fromt he Bible. Not sure why you act surprised by this.

Thank-you and May I pray the same for you, if it is His will to be so. In the name of Jesus Christ I ask this. Amen, Amen, Amen!

Yes, you may, and thank you...

Love you Brother

You're killin' me. Ah...ok...if I can: love you too!?!

 

[eddieb]

well that explains the coke can. what about the coke bottle?

 

[californiasun]

without going into detail, evolution explains exactly why a banana is a banana. evolution is not blind chance, it is a convergence algorithm iterating away to changing boundary conditions.

 

[David777]

Yo.

Dear eddieb, that is one of the funniest lines I have seen to date.

I am still laughing as I am writing, well said.

 

[David777]

Hello Californiasun.

I noticed brother you used the term "blind chance".

Please read the following from the Stanford Encyclopedia,

This small survey of determinism's status in some prominent physical theories, as indicated above, does not really tell us anything about whether determinism is true of our world. Instead, it raises a couple of further disturbing possibilities for the time when we do have the Final Theory before us (if such time ever comes): first, we may have difficulty establishing whether the Final Theory is deterministic or not—depending on whether the theory comes loaded with unsolved interpretational or mathematical puzzles. Second, we may have reason to worry that the Final Theory, if indeterministic, has an empirically equivalent yet deterministic rival (as illustrated by Bohmian quantum mechanics.)


The theory of evolution of course is a subset of a Final Theory.


Chance and determinism have been debated for a very long time.


You are perhaps exhibiting way too much confidence in chance.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

I find it utterly surprising that these types of arguments are convincing to anyone at all. Do people know that bananas were selectively bred and cultivated by humans? Look up a wild banana on google and you'll see exactly what "god intended" with "his creation". Eat that, Christians.

Hilariously,

Traverse

 

[BCRE8TVE]

I am not just a fan of Jesus Christ and life, but a fan of knowledge. With knowledge comes great power, and power comes the ability to change the world and influence it. Imagine if every single person on earth learned from the mistakes from past civilizations? In my personal opinion we have come a long way, but we NEED to go further. It is time we changed through knowledge and stopped senseless persecution and war.

Knowledge is power, and with great power comes great responsibility. Well said my friend! I find the more we discuss, the less there is to discuss, because I agree with you on so many of these topics

Why some do and others don't comes down to personality and personal strength. Take relationships for example. A relationship becomes a support system in most cases. Some people are okay without this, so when the relationship ends they are fine. The others however lose that support system that they hung onto so dearly, and are left with feeling like they have nothing. This is just an example, because not every single person falls into the categories listed above. I also think it could have something to do with both the human condition and how we are raised.

And again I can say nothing but that I agree

I get this question a lot from friends actually. I follow Christianity because it is my first discovered religion, it is what I was raised with. I also want to be more like the traits mentioned in the bible, two mostly. I would like to become more patient, to control my emotions. I want to lash out in anger, sadness, and jealousy much much less then I currently do. I also want to love more than I do now, and eliminate a lot of hate and anger with others in my life. Personal goals that I have set, and my personal beliefs and faith help me progress to these goals.

If it helps you attain those goals, how can I disagree with you? You seem down-to-earth enough that would would be able to see if you are misguided, so I trust you to not be lead astray when you say you rely on Christianity to teach you morals.

I agree with you. Atheists do get treated like that, along with other belief systems and homosexuals. I personally don't think it matters where it started and who did what first, but it matters when it ends (off subject lol). I have met a lot of both. Most of it actually online, instead of in person or on the street. Which does make a lot of difference, people tend to be more shy in person about their beliefs.

To me, it also matters when it is continuing, and I suppose we both agree that the earlier it stops, the better As for me, I haven't met a LGBT person 'in the flesh' so to speak, although I've befriended a few on the 'net Outwardly I suppose they are no different than anybody else, so it's not like we can pick them out from a crowd. And when people must remain silent in public, they can speak out their mind much more vehemently on the internet. It is a good thing I believe.

I recently posted a video, and you can find the post or search google for it. Search for "Why I hate religion, but love Jesus". It might not be your thing, but it opened me up a little bit. To each their own, but I don't see a reason to fall in line with a denomination to live happy or be straight with my God. I refuse to follow blindly into line, I am my own person.

And for that last sentence I respect you even more. You are bbal1989 on youtube, yes? If so, in response to the 'what if I told you' question in the beginning, I would tell you evangelists and mormons wouldn't like you very much Honestly, that was an excellent video, very very well done and executed! It's not the kind of video I would go searching for, because usually those kinds of videos tend to be preachy, but yours was open-minded, a statement of opinion, and that was a beautifully expressed opinion. I understand much better why people believe in Jesus so much now Thank you for sharing!

I dislike end time talk SO much. Look at how much damage it has done and how many lives it has ruined. Just research Harold Camping, and it sums it all up. In whatever belief, when the world ends someone somewhere is going to suffer badly, why look forward to something like that? In Christianity God doesn't even look forward to the suffering of his enemies, why should we? When it comes to thing biblical, the end will be a bad time for everyone. I also agree with you that life here isn't meaningless either. We have a short time here, we should make the best of it and do what makes us happy. We should focus ourselves on doing great things. Inventing, discovering, breaking records, and so much more. So much to do, and so little time. Don't take power from yourself, just because there is something out there bigger than you.

I don't dislike those discussions so much as I dislike the close-mindedness of people who try to justify it. It's fairly easy to punch holes in their logic, but they do not respond to logic, therefore any argument whatsoever is doomed to fail.
Well, it'll be a bad time except for the people who will be 'raptured' I guess (is that even a word?). And upon reading that last line, I could literally hear you reciting a poem again

Thanks for the offer! I have been out of school for so long now, so I'm still not used to research lol. I get some things confused. Lets just hope when I go back to school I can catch up again.

No problem! What's important is that you try, and of course that you can discern between what is good information and what is bad information. If you do wish to have details clarified, send me a message

I need to clarify a little more, and stop targeting certain factions lol. It is illogical to deny possibility all together. The difference between open-minded and closed minded. Both of them have negative and positive benefits, but being open-minded has more of a chance to change others around you and slowly the world. We should always hold fast in what we believe in, but we cross the line when we demand viciously that our way is right and your way is wrong. This becomes more of an issue without proof or evidence, which atheists and all believers have none to show each other when it comes to the existence of a higher power.

It is illogical to deny possibility altogether, but many atheists who say that God doesn't exist pronounce themselves based on the attributes religious people give God. To them, in a way, it's sort of like disproving something that doesn't exist in real life (say zombies) because the way that thing is described we know it doesn't exist in real life (eg: a zombie who even when pulverized to the sub-atomic level would still not die). We know that some attributes give some limits if you will in the real world, and atheists are saying "Look, the attributes you give transcend real-world limits, therefore it's not possible." They still can't say with 100% certainty there is nothing at all out there, but the more specific one is with deity, the easier it is to disprove.
I agree about open-mindedness. You can also change the world when you are close-minded though. I don't believe the Führer was very terribly open-minded, but he still changed the world. Sad example, but still. What I think is the difference is you can be close-minded all you want, however when you demand other people believe in the same close-minded way as you, when you impose your mindset on others, that is when you lose the moral high ground.
I still find it funny though that religious people somehow claim the absence of evidence for God is in some way actually evidence FOR Him

It's easy for people to get so offended and go on the offensive. This is just one of those things that people should focus on changing. Not to mention the fact that arguments are no way to prove your point or to display your beliefs in an effective way. What part of "you're an idiot for believing in a higher power" sounds appealing? What part of "you're going to suffer an eternity in hell" sounds appealing? I wouldn't want to be influenced by any of those statements. I think it's okay for God to be a fatherly figure actually. There are a lot of good morals we can learn from the bible. I would never want to murder or steal from someone, or break the heart of someone I truly love on earth. I think everyone should not be afraid to openly state what they believe in and who they are. Beauty will forever be being true to yourself and real.

Again, I can only agree with the last part of your statement. However, in modern society, people often forget that the true key to happiness is within, not without. Be it zealous belief in religion, materialistic buying of material, or obtaining power, people need to stop thinking they need to do something to be happy, when they have to learn to be themselves and accept themselves, even if and especially if others don't accept who they are. Living in denial never made anyone happy.
Also, I don't object to God being protrayed as a fatherly figure, I object to it when it is used to portray adults, grown men and women, as children. I personally think it's an insult to their intelligence.

It applies to everyone, no matter how emotionally strong. Fear is the root for a lot of humanities decisions and emotions. This is a topic where we aren't separated but brought together as humans.

I was just wondering, that fear can be hard-wired into our brains by evolutionary means, ie fear of snakes, but if creationists don't believe in evolution... Anyhow, mean joke aside, I agree also. Fear is part of the universal human psyche.

Another fantastic example IS unknown and strange diseases. Tons of movies have been made about this too! I targeted aliens because I am a big Halo and Mass Effect fan, so it's what I had more experience with in explaining. However, I have seen and met people who believed in the possibility of an alien invasion or hostile contact with alien lifeforms. It sounds a bit out there to me, but who really knows? The universe is massive! I'm more worried about more important things though, like living my life and not the end of it.

I neer understood why Halo was so popular, but Mass Effect I can relate to, even though I never played it
As for alien invasions, the distances involved are so vast, we are so insignificantly small, it would be akin to finding a microscopic needle in an entire continent covered in straw fields. If they do find us, and they do decide to invade us, we're pretty much screwed anyways In which case, why worry about remote but inevitable death when there is a whole life to be lived?
Although some people seem oddly expectant of a zombie apocalypse...

I try to push back with rational arguments or debates. In a way I am somewhat of a free thinker, because I try not to allow the things that other people say to influence my views. At the same time I try to see their views and understand them as best as I can. I agree that pushing back is sometimes needed, but it's sad that the situation has gotten that far. Why feel the need to push people hard enough to where they demand you to leave them alone or to stop because they feel threatened? True at fear of harm and rejection, which is being seen a lot in the states lately. It's not just for beliefs either, but lifestyles as well.

By pushing back, I meant pushing back against the majority of a society who does not share the views of a minority, and wishes that minority would either go back in the closet or that the godless minority get out of their God-fearing nation. What do you mean by pushing back, because it seems we don't have the same definition here.
If only more people were like you my friend, if only. Sadly though, many many people are not so independent, and can be influenced like sheep. I suppose that is part of human nature also, to act differently in a crowd than acting alone.
Is it that bad in the States? I'm wondering, because here in Canada, religion is a non-issue, and while most older folks (25 and up I'd say) are very uncomfortable with gays, they do not openly protest against them. It's more of the "we don't like what you do, but we'd rather just not see it" kind, as in 'just don't act obnoxious in our faces and we'll agree to disagree'. How is it in the states?

Why exactly do you not see it as an assault on atheism? The topic has a title with the word Atheist in it. Then, without knowing what the theories are it seems, the poster challenges them blindly. This accuses atheists of having the beliefs in logical theories, and then challenging both together. It is an assault. Why do you see the article as evidence, when it debunks itself by simple lack of knowledge that the poster has about the big bang theory and evolution? Close understanding of both theories will tell you that it is not "random order" it is a very slow process that took an unreal amount of time. Time that we can possibly put a number on, but can never comprehend. I would hope that if someone asked me why I believe in Christ I won't try to find evidence that doesn't exist, and declare why I actually do believe in Jesus. Providing evidence and knowledge isn't an attack, providing false or situational evidence is.

Bravo on the very well written response! Much better than mine was

 

[BCRE8TVE]

I find it utterly surprising that these types of arguments are convincing to anyone at all. Do people know that bananas were selectively bred and cultivated by humans? Look up a wild banana on google and you'll see exactly what "god intended" with "his creation". Eat that, Christians.

Hilariously,

Traverse

Now now Traverse, belittling people of other faiths is hardly a good way to connect with them and influence their opinion!








Though I do agree for the great majority of anti-scientific claims made by young-earth creationists They are either maddeningly inane, or hilariously inept

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Now now Traverse, belittling people of other faiths is hardly a good way to connect with them and influence their opinion!

No one needs to belittle anyone using that argument, because the argument does that just fine. :wink:

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[David777]

Question Atheist(s).

Statement: An Atheist does not believe in God.

Why?

(Please provide your answer in ten lines or less.)

 

[Fraction]

And for that last sentence I respect you even more. You are bbal1989 on youtube, yes? If so, in response to the 'what if I told you' question in the beginning, I would tell you evangelists and mormons wouldn't like you very much Honestly, that was an excellent video, very very well done and executed! It's not the kind of video I would go searching for, because usually those kinds of videos tend to be preachy, but yours was open-minded, a statement of opinion, and that was a beautifully expressed opinion. I understand much better why people believe in Jesus so much now Thank you for sharing!

Oh no, I am not the person in the video or the poster on youtube. I actually brought it to the forum is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[David777]

Hello again.

Christianity is a spiritual entity.

2 Corinthians 3:16-18

Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit;
and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Our revelation of Jesus Christ is from the Spirit.

It is not a theism, not an intellectual manifestation, not a logical construction. It is a Spiritual revelation.

Again it is written,

1 Corinthians 12:3

So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

By the Holy Spirit and only by the Holy Spirit can we say "Jesus is God".

An atheist is powerless against the Holy Spirit.
An atheist cannot gain traction in the field of Revelation.
An atheist can only operate in the engine room of thoughts.

We do not say "Jesus is God" unless we are given the Spirit of God.

But, if you are a theist, then an atheist may open his tool box.
What is the outcome of the clash between theism and atheism?
There is no outcome, it is just a never ending debate.
Why? Because neither side can prove anything, it is intangible.
It has no evidence, no argument, it never existed.

Revelation provided by the Holy Spirit is what powers a Christian.

Christianity is not theism, it is not an intellectual claim.

There are no assumptions made by a Christian.

We are from above, we are not of the flesh.

Our tools are not of this World. They are not of the flesh.