The Beginnings of Understanding the Book of Revelations

[Charlie24]

From Rev. 6 through 19 concerns "The Day of the Lord" which means "the Day of God's wrath." This is actually the subject of the Book of Revelations.

In order to begin to understand it's contents there must be an understanding of Matthew 24, as Christ explains it. So what do we need to know from Matthew 24?

We need to know that the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ. God uses the Gentile world under the leadership of the Anti-Christ to accomplish this. The rest of the world is effected by God's dealings with Israel indirectly.

Matthew 24 is Christ telling His disciples what will befall Israel at "The day of the Lord." It concerns Israel but effects the rest of the world as His wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel. Killing 2 birds with one stone, you might say.

The most often misunderstood verse in Matthew 24 is vs 31,

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"His elect" who are they? Christ is addressing Israel in this entire chapter and His elect is Israel.

Isaiah 45:4

"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Once this is understood, that God is dealing with Israel, then the puzzle begins to take shape. If not, then the pattern of interpreting Revelations will be misconstrued.

 

[B-A-C]

Isaiah 45:4

Ok, that's the elect in the OT. But it seems to encompass more people in the NT.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

You already mentioned Matt 24, which pretty much goes along with Mark 13.

Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luke 18:7; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

So if Romans was written to Gentiles, who are the elect in Rom 8:33 ?

We need to know that the main purpose of the Great Tribulation is to bring Israel to Christ. God uses the Gentile world under the leadership of the Anti-Christ to accomplish this. The rest of the world is effected by God's dealings with Israel indirectly.

That may be correct, but why do you believe this? Where does it specifically say this?
Do you believe there are two raptures? One for the Gentiles and one for the Jews?

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

A great multitude of people here. Not just Jews. It specifically says people of every tribe, nation, tongue .. and people... the word used for people here is ...

laos
lah-os'
Apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from G1218, which denotes one’s own populace): - people.

So we know it isn't just Jews.

 

[Charlie24]

Ok, that's the elect in the OT. But it seems to encompass more people in the NT.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

You already mentioned Matt 24, which pretty much goes along with Mark 13.

Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Luke 18:7; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?
Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

So if Romans was written to Gentiles, who are the elect in Rom 8:33 ?



That may be correct, but why do you believe this? Where does it specifically say this?
Do you believe there are two raptures? One for the Gentiles and one for the Jews?

The word "elect" in the Greek carries a different meaning according to context. Let me see if I can explain this.

You and I have been born-again, so we are the elect of God, this is the meaning projected in Rom. 8:33. So Paul is speaking of all who are in Christ (salvation).

In Matt. 24:22 we have a totally different meaning in the word "elect."

Israel is the "elect" of God not in the sense of salvation but of being "elected/chosen" for the purpose of bringing the Messiah into the world.

Matt. 24:22 and Isa. 45:4 carry this meaning. It is the context that includes Israel that determines this.

Israel as a nation is not saved and they are not the elect of God in the sense of salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

This is the same word in Matt 24:22; Matt 24:31; Mark 13:20; and Mark 13:27; ... as well as as Romans 8:33;

But according to you, even though it's a same word in the same language. It's talking about two different groups of people.
I think we have to do better than.. "because I think so" here.

Israel as a nation is not saved and they are not the elect of God in the sense of salvation.

Not yet, but they will be...

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

So then, let me get this straight... they aren't the "elect.. in the sense of salvation"... but all of Israel will be saved? Does that make sense to you?

 

[Charlie24]

ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

This is the same word in Matt 24:22; Matt 24:31; Mark 13:20; and Mark 13:27; ... as well as as Romans 8:33;

But according to you, even though it's a same word in the same language. It's talking about two different groups of people.
I think we have to do better than.. "because I think so" here.



Not yet, but they will be...

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

So then, let me get this straight... they aren't the "elect.. in the sense of salvation"... but all of Israel will be saved? Does that make sense to you?

What makes sense to me that if Israel is in a verse with the word "elect/chosen" you will have to determine in that particular verse if Israel has been saved yet. It takes careful examination to see this.

But if you have chosen to discount the difference in meaning of the word "elect" as I have laid out, then that's ok with me.

It effects the entire interpretation of Revelations and we will not see eye to eye on it.

 

[B-A-C]

It changes more than that. It changes who gets "gathered up" in Matt 24:31; and Mark 13:27; Because according to those verses only the "elect" get gathered up.
So then, that let's you believe that 1Thess 4:17; is a different separate event, a different trumpet? A different rapture?

Admittedly it is two different words.

harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Total KJV occurrences: 13

and

episunagō
ep-ee-soon-ag'-o
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).
Total KJV occurrences: 7

But both are translated as "gather up" or "gather together" in most English translations.

 

[Charlie24]

It changes more than that. It changes who gets "gathered up" in Matt 24:31; and Mark 13:27; Because according to those verses only the "elect" get gathered up.
So then, that let's you believe that 1Thess 4:17; is a different separate event, a different trumpet? A different rapture?

Admittedly it is two different words.

harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Total KJV occurrences: 13

and

episunagō
ep-ee-soon-ag'-o
From G1909 and G4863; to collect upon the same place: - gather (together).
Total KJV occurrences: 7

But both are translated as "gather up" or "gather together" in most English translations.

No, Matt. 24:31 is when Christ gathers all of the Jews (His elect) in the world, "from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other" and places them all in Israel.

 

[Charlie24]

No, Matt. 24:31 is when Christ gathers all of the Jews (His elect) in the world, "from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other" and places them all in Israel.

We know that Paul said, "and all Israel shall be saved.

We know that Zechariah said, and they shall see Him (Second Coming) and they shall weep and wail over Him.

So we know Israel is saved, all of Israel is saved at the Second Coming.

Then is when every Jew in the world will be gathered in Israel for the Kingdome Age to begin.

 

[Charlie24]

We know that Paul said, "and all Israel shall be saved.

We know that Zechariah said, and they shall see Him (Second Coming) and they shall weep and wail over Him.

So we know Israel is saved, all of Israel is saved at the Second Coming.

Then is when every Jew in the world will be gathered in Israel for the Kingdome Age to begin.

Zech. 12:9-11

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

[Samson2020]

Not yet, but they will be...

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Correct
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: BUT RATHER THROUGH THEIR FALL SALVATION HAS COME UNTO THE GENTILES,
FOR TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved..............

Can we agree that God had chosen the Hebrew people for His own and referred to them as Israel?
Has God changed who Israel is in that the nation of Israel is not the sum of Israel but rather the Jews who believed and the Gentiles who believed as well?

26- states that all Israel will be saved. Is this national Israel? Or the elect of God Israel who believe? Seeing that all the blinded mentioned here were of the
nation of Israel, and who of the Gentiles is also blinded at this time? Knowing that eventually all those blinded, of Israel, shall be saved it would suggest that
all are the elect of God but not at this moment in time.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willith, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Not pushing anything here just pointing out that Israels definition has changed when it comes to the spiritual definition. The new Israel is the elect and
as 9:16 points out the elect are not the elect except by the mercy of God. No man makes himself part of the elect group. Otherwise they would not
be the elect of God.

So we know Israel is saved, all of Israel is saved at the Second Coming.

Then is when every Jew in the world will be gathered in Israel for the Kingdome Age to begin.

Wish it were that easy but as Jesus has made the two (Gentiles and Jews) ONE NEW MAN there is no difference in the spirit, in the flesh yes.
As noted above ALL ISRAEL is the spiritual elect of God.
The flesh Jews are not gonna be saved at the second coming, they will be made alive in Christ during the second death time dispensation. And I cannot
say that all will be at that time for I cannot see past that.
Salvation is the beginning of a disciples journey back to the Father, it requires God to start the process by giving faith to believe, and the supply of the HG.
Once the initial has begun there is a time of growth or maturity for each of us, "renewing of the mind", "going from glory to glory" "being transformed into
the Image of the first born Son" These things take time thus one is able to simply be saved by the grace of God, but if allowed to stay at the starting line
what race were they allowed to run and what overcoming prizes were they allowed to obtain. In that state they would remain as least in the kingdom.

 

[Charlie24]

Correct
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: BUT RATHER THROUGH THEIR FALL SALVATION HAS COME UNTO THE GENTILES,
FOR TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved..............

Can we agree that God had chosen the Hebrew people for His own and referred to them as Israel?
Has God changed who Israel is in that the nation of Israel is not the sum of Israel but rather the Jews who believed and the Gentiles who believed as well?

26- states that all Israel will be saved. Is this national Israel? Or the elect of God Israel who believe? Seeing that all the blinded mentioned here were of the
nation of Israel, and who of the Gentiles is also blinded at this time? Knowing that eventually all those blinded, of Israel, shall be saved it would suggest that
all are the elect of God but not at this moment in time.


Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willith, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Not pushing anything here just pointing out that Israels definition has changed when it comes to the spiritual definition. The new Israel is the elect and
as 9:16 points out the elect are not the elect except by the mercy of God. No man makes himself part of the elect group. Otherwise they would not
be the elect of God.


Wish it were that easy but as Jesus has made the two (Gentiles and Jews) ONE NEW MAN there is no difference in the spirit, in the flesh yes.
As noted above ALL ISRAEL is the spiritual elect of God.
The flesh Jews are not gonna be saved at the second coming, they will be made alive in Christ during the second death time dispensation. And I cannot
say that all will be at that time for I cannot see past that.
Salvation is the beginning of a disciples journey back to the Father, it requires God to start the process by giving faith to believe, and the supply of the HG.
Once the initial has begun there is a time of growth or maturity for each of us, "renewing of the mind", "going from glory to glory" "being transformed into
the Image of the first born Son" These things take time thus one is able to simply be saved by the grace of God, but if allowed to stay at the starting line
what race were they allowed to run and what overcoming prizes were they allowed to obtain. In that state they would remain as least in the kingdom.

Yes, Israel will be saved at the Second Coming. Notice how both John and Zechariah say, "they who pierced Him." Both are at the Second Coming.

Then notice how John said "they will wail because of Him."

Zechariah said how the Jews shall "mourn for Him" and "be in bitterness for Him"

This is when Israel shall actually see Christ at His Second Coming and know without a doubt He is their Messiah.



Revelation 1:7

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Zechariah 12:10-11

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

 

[Samson2020]

Then notice how John said "they will wail because of Him."

Zechariah said how the Jews shall "mourn for Him" and "be in bitterness for Him"

This is when Israel shall actually see Christ at His Second Coming and know without a doubt He is their Messiah.

I'm good with what you wrote there but it doesn't mean or say that anyone is saved at that time. You have implied thats what it means.

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

They will all know that what they were told, assuming they actually heard, was true concerning Gods salvation and who it would come through.
But again this does not mean that anyone will at that moment be saved. It is implied by you.
We see here that EVERY EYE shall see Him. Does this mean even the dead that are not in Christ, I would have to say most likely as even they which pierced Him
shall see Him.
But yet the dead who are not in Christ are not resurrected until after the millenial reign, the second resurrection.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm good with what you wrote there but it doesn't mean or say that anyone is saved at that time. You have implied thats what it means.

They will all know that what they were told, assuming they actually heard, was true concerning Gods salvation and who it would come through.
But again this does not mean that anyone will at that moment be saved. It is implied by you.
We see here that EVERY EYE shall see Him. Does this mean even the dead that are not in Christ, I would have to say most likely as even they which pierced Him
shall see Him.
But yet the dead who are not in Christ are not resurrected until after the millenial reign, the second resurrection.

So you have doubts about Israel recognizing their Messiah after He has just descended from heaven and destroyed the Anti-Christ" armies beforre their very eyes?

Come on now, you know they will accept Him and be saved after that!

 

[Samson2020]

Come on now, you know they will accept Him and be saved after that!

And right there is the problem.
God does the calling and the choosing, not man.
Will they see and wail and howl? Sure but that does not mean that God at that very instant is gonna call them.

It is NOT of him that wills, nor of Him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. Rom 9:16

 

[Samson2020]

So you have doubts about Israel recognizing their Messiah after He has just descended from heaven and destroyed the Anti-Christ" armies beforre their very eyes?

By that reasoning everyone at the Great Judgement will be saved at that time as well because they confess that Jesus is Lord and obviously believe it for they see
Him too.
But we know that those not found written in the book of life of the Lamb are cast into the Lake of fire, the second death. There has to be another time frame
in which ALL Israel is saved.

Here is where the dispensationalist or fundamentalist would actually believe it is a lake of fire simply because the understanding is literal.
The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit so when spiritual language is used to hide a matter the natural man is understandably confused.
Figurative language.

 

[Charlie24]

And right there is the problem.
God does the calling and the choosing, not man.
Will they see and wail and howl? Sure but that does not mean that God at that very instant is gonna call them.

It is NOT of him that wills, nor of Him that runs, but of God that shows mercy. Rom 9:16

This is one of the reasons that dispensationalism sees God dealing separately with Israel and in a different way than with the Church.

But don't take my word for it.

 

[Charlie24]

By that reasoning everyone at the Great Judgement will be saved at that time as well because they confess that Jesus is Lord and obviously believe it for they see
Him too.
But we know that those not found written in the book of life of the Lamb are cast into the Lake of fire, the second death. There has to be another time frame
in which ALL Israel is saved.

Here is where the dispensationalist or fundamentalist would actually believe it is a lake of fire simply because the understanding is literal.
The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit so when spiritual language is used to hide a matter the natural man is understandably confused.
Figurative language.

Seems

By that reasoning everyone at the Great Judgement will be saved at that time as well because they confess that Jesus is Lord and obviously believe it for they see
Him too.
But we know that those not found written in the book of life of the Lamb are cast into the Lake of fire, the second death. There has to be another time frame
in which ALL Israel is saved.

Here is where the dispensationalist or fundamentalist would actually believe it is a lake of fire simply because the understanding is literal.
The natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit so when spiritual language is used to hide a matter the natural man is understandably confused.
Figurative language.

We are so far apart that there is no bridge in sight where we can intersect.

 

[Samson2020]

Seems


We are so far apart that there is no bridge in sight where we can intersect.

That seems to be a common thread with you and most all you post to.

I pray you get past that someday.

PS it is the book of THE REVELATION , not revelations.

 

[Bill]

I think that people have been trying to figure out Revelations ever since the day it was written.

Unless the Lord is specifically told you something, more than likely you will not know anything. Because you just plainly don't know when it starts. There are so many different interpretations of the very first seal for instance, that it makes it difficult to figure things out.

But I will put my two cents worth in, if you read the very last line of the six seal. You will see that people realize, that when that day comes, they will know it is the Great Day of the Lord