And @KittyLinda -- I Am someone you can talk to -- hopefully you've clicked into the 'conversation' area that I mentioned. And , hopefully, you're around on Forum reading what we're sharing.
The church vs LGBQT community
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While I can understand why you are angry, but we do have to know that many of our problems are caused by our own bad choices. Even I was angry at God at one point in time, it is alright to be angry, just that we need to also be honest about who is responsible for our current ordeal. Emotions will pass, don't let it eat you up.
Regarding your current marital situation, seek for as much help as you can from those around you. If you do need to migrate, do it. Since we make mistakes with our choices, it is best that we accept the results, no matter how unpleasant. It is not easy, but it is the path that is good for you. Holding onto your pain is only going to hurt you further and for longer periods. Let your emotions out through some healthy outlet, like exercising, hiking etc. All bad things in this life will pass away. Seek God and His righteousness, we might have ruined and devastated life in this current age, but if our faith in God is unwavering and we seek to have the righteous character of God, then we have a future that nothing in this world can compare.
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Dear KittyLinda,
You can call me whatever makes you comfortable Christ4Ever, C4E, Nick, Brother etc.
First I'll keep on referencing the verse in question, and since you use the NKJV that will be the one I use. Not that I'll be quoting scripture here.
Rom 1:27 NKJV - Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Secondly, I understand what a person who defines themselves as bi-sexual is. Since the reality is that words may have differed in their uses during different times, and cultures, but humanity has not in their behavior as it pertains to morality. Any number of variations of how humanity co-mingled sexually today was evident even during the times of Jesus. The different levels of acceptance were determined by the cultures one were to look at. As far as I know the Jewish Nation of Israeli was the only one that had a moral code that forbid certain interactions because it was given to them by God, and not determined by the Cultures of the day. No different than today. Otherwise, even what we would consider abnormal, pedophilia, was not unknown, nor from what I could tell not practiced. Now you and I in this day might think it wrong, but then again, we’re talking about nations/cultures that had no problem with sacrificing their own children. So, even such abominations as bestiality would not have been unheard of. We really are not so removed from yesteryear as it pertains to morality, as we'd like to think we are.
What you need to realize is that moral codes/behavior have only been dictated by cultures, and their religious beliefs. You self-identifying as a Christian also adhere, or I say should adhere to the moral dictates written by the Prophets (OT&NT), and what we believe to be the Word of God as found in the Bible and translated from the original autographs of which we only have copies of, but still more than adequate to know exactly what God wants us to know, and not from what we believe is natural or unnatural in our understanding of nature or even self-actualization. (Long sentence I know, sorry.) As Christians, we don’t/shouldn’t carry forward behaviors that are contrary to what the Word of God says, is wrong. These moral codes, are given by God, for our own benefit, and because He loves us. No matter how difficult it may seem to be or even how impossible it may appear to be to put into practice. As you know what Scripture says what God told Paul “in your weakness I Am Strong.”
Now, if we were to go by just this one verse in Scripture, the point you are stating could be valid and argued is one possible understanding. However, Scripture is used to explain Scripture, so we have more than just this one verse in place to determine what God would want us to understand if there appears to be conflicts. Here what we are seeking to understand since as you have said “natural” as it pertains to homosexuality/lesbianism cannot be found scripturally, is almost the opposite, which is what is not acceptable to God for us to do. Knowing full well their awareness of moral behaviors of their day, and ones that are still practiced in this day.
We could go further, but I believe you’ve been here before, and I’m sure it’s not something you’d want to go through again. However, I would pose a series of questions at you as to when you first received Jesus Christ as your Savior. We repent of our sins, and I know for me they were many, and I still repent of some that have stayed on me like a fly to fly paper, but I’m not giving up on the change in Christ Jesus that we all must go through, to His Glory! Try, looking back and recalling what they were, and through the light of Holy Spirit, you now realize how sinful they were as seen through the Words of God in Scripture. Now look to the sins that you might not even have been aware of initially or seen them as sins, and how you've repented of them once you became aware of what they were. No need to tell me, I’m no priest at a confessional
but we know that the Holy Spirit in us, convicts us, and unless we turn away from Him, He will continue to remind us, with gentle prodding of the Spirit that we need to repent and do a 180 from them. That striving/changing into Holiness, to be Sanctified, can be and I know for me is a process which is not always easy. I'll stop here, since much of this I'm sure, as I said earlier, is not new to you.Oh, to end this on a good note I hope! What name do you like to go by? Kitty, Linda, KittyLinda, Kat (Kitty), Pretty (Linda) or another?
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Jesus_is_LORD
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Just a question. Asked respectfully and in love.
First I will say that I would be uncomfortable hosting a BnB if I lived there. However I don't think that God would hold me in judgement if I did.
My question is would you also not rent (BnB) to an unmarried couple who would clearly be fornicating(sin)?
My thoughts are whatever the answer we should be consistent.
Obviously I'm not being silly and asking would you rent to a liar or someone who curses. Just keeping it to the abomination of sexual sins.
I think about what Jesus said about judging. We should do so after looking at ourselves and knowing that we will be judged by our own standard. So I think refusing service to someone because they are gay has support if you would do the same for people who are fornicating.
I don't have the right answer yet, still reflecting but I think the ability to be consistent points to the state or our heart.
What are your thoughts?
With Love, WNL
KittyLinda
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Dear KittyLinda,
You can call me whatever makes you comfortable Christ4Ever, C4E, Nick, Brother etc.
First I'll keep on referencing the verse in question, and since you use the NKJV that will be the one I use. Not that I'll be quoting scripture here.
Rom 1:27 NKJV - Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Secondly, I understand what a person who defines themselves as bi-sexual is. Since the reality is that words may have differed in their uses during different times, and cultures, but humanity has not in their behavior as it pertains to morality. Any number of variations of how humanity co-mingled sexually today was evident even during the times of Jesus. The different levels of acceptance were determined by the cultures one were to look at. As far as I know the Jewish Nation of Israeli was the only one that had a moral code that forbid certain interactions because it was given to them by God, and not determined by the Cultures of the day. No different than today. Otherwise, even what we would consider abnormal, pedophilia, was not unknown, nor from what I could tell not practiced. Now you and I in this day might think it wrong, but then again, we’re talking about nations/cultures that had no problem with sacrificing their own children. So, even such abominations as bestiality would not have been unheard of. We really are not so removed from yesteryear as it pertains to morality, as we'd like to think we are.
What you need to realize is that moral codes/behavior have only been dictated by cultures, and their religious beliefs. You self-identifying as a Christian also adhere, or I say should adhere to the moral dictates written by the Prophets (OT&NT), and what we believe to be the Word of God as found in the Bible and translated from the original autographs of which we only have copies of, but still more than adequate to know exactly what God wants us to know, and not from what we believe is natural or unnatural in our understanding of nature or even self-actualization. (Long sentence I know, sorry.) As Christians, we don’t/shouldn’t carry forward behaviors that are contrary to what the Word of God says, is wrong. These moral codes, are given by God, for our own benefit, and because He loves us. No matter how difficult it may seem to be or even how impossible it may appear to be to put into practice. As you know what Scripture says what God told Paul “in your weakness I Am Strong.”
Now, if we were to go by just this one verse in Scripture, the point you are stating could be valid and argued is one possible understanding. However, Scripture is used to explain Scripture, so we have more than just this one verse in place to determine what God would want us to understand if there appears to be conflicts. Here what we are seeking to understand since as you have said “natural” as it pertains to homosexuality/lesbianism cannot be found scripturally, is almost the opposite, which is what is not acceptable to God for us to do. Knowing full well their awareness of moral behaviors of their day, and ones that are still practiced in this day.
We could go further, but I believe you’ve been here before, and I’m sure it’s not something you’d want to go through again. However, I would pose a series of questions at you as to when you first received Jesus Christ as your Savior. We repent of our sins, and I know for me they were many, and I still repent of some that have stayed on me like a fly to fly paper, but I’m not giving up on the change in Christ Jesus that we all must go through, to His Glory! Try, looking back and recalling what they were, and through the light of Holy Spirit, you now realize how sinful they were as seen through the Words of God in Scripture. Now look to the sins that you might not even have been aware of initially or seen them as sins, and how you've repented of them once you became aware of what they were. No need to tell me, I’m no priest at a confessional
Oh, to end this on a good note I hope! What name do you like to go by? Kitty, Linda, KittyLinda, Kat (Kitty), Pretty (Linda) or another?
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Nick. I am sure you knew what Bi-sexual means. I just wanted to make sure you understand that it is not 50/50. Nearly all my past relationships were same-sex. I have way more gay tendencies. Again, I do not like the term homosexual. That does not apply to me anyway. Are you talking about being born gay here? I am only addressing those who are ‘born’ gay or who are born bi-sexual like me.
There are more than 500 Churches here in NY alone that support gays/lesbians and they disagree with you. They received Jesus Christ as their Savior. Some of these churches are reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Episcopal, or Non-denominational.
If you look at this 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
In the Geneva Bible (1599), it says this:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God.
The King James Version (1611) says this:
neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Many translations lost the accuracy of the actual meaning. As I said before we do not know much about the term. The further back we go, the less clear, but today people seem to think this has been decided already, but that is not true. The terms “malakoi” or “arsenekotoi” refer to men who have sex with men. It does not say anything about women. Do not tell me it is not ok with a woman to marry another woman because that is nowhere in the bible. Also, the term “Malakoi” is translated in the Vulgate by the Latin adjective “mollis“, meaning “soft” and the term “malakoi“ is also written as “catamites”, which means “boy prostitutes” or slave “pet” boys. From the wiki: “In ancient Greece and Rome, a catamite (Latin: catamitus) was a pubescent boy who was the intimate companion of a young man, usually in a pederastic relationship.”
We don’t know a lot about these words in 1 Corinthians 6 or what they really refer to – but we are very sure that they do not refer to equality, or sex in loving relationships as we know them today. The bible does not address gay marriage, or gay relationships anywhere, and these verses do not say anything about women, too. Gay/lesbian marriage is not in any way contrary to what the Word of God says, and as I said there are at least 500 Churches here where I live that agree with me, and these are lots of Christians.
Again here a quote from Kevin DeYoung (PhD, University of Leicester) :
Oh, to end this on a good note I hope! What name do you like to go by? Kitty, Linda, KittyLinda, Kat (Kitty), Pretty (Linda) or another?
I prefer just Linda. I could not register Linda when I came to this site, because it was already taken, and only my close friends call me Kitty.
KittyLinda
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It takes time to quit smoking, or any bad habit, right? This is no different. I never thought much about having sex, or having intimate relationships in the past, because I was living in disobedience. I am a changed person today, but it is still a struggle, because I was already in a relationship, and as you know my partner did not know me as a practicing Christian, and he is the father of my child. I made a mistake, and I pushed him away. I can't promise I won't have the sex, if we manage to get back together. It is what it is.
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Sorry to hear about your parents and how they treated you. I am still learning from those who are more mature in Christ. I am sure there are spiritual battles in my life, and I often experience panic attacks, nightmares, and the paranormal, but this is not because I am gay, or because I was in same-sex relationships. I think they come from any sinful acts, in general. The bible does not say anything about lesbian relationships.
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Thank you so much. It really helps talking to people like you, but sometimes I feel that you are a bit not fair about gays/lesbians, but that is not strange from those who actually feel gay inside. I preached against gays/lesbians in the past despite how I actually felt. I was just trying to be loyal to my family.
What about Romans 1 which talked about both same sex desires from both women and men? Paul wrote the book of Romans too, and he called same sex desires from both women and men "shameful lusts" (Romans 1:26 NIV). Just to show you the consistency of the fact that Paul disapproved of same sex desires from both genders:
Romans 1:26 NLT That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
Romans 1:26 ESV For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Romans 1:26 BSB For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 1:26 BLB Because of this, God gave up them to passions of dishonor. For even their females changed the natural use into that contrary to nature.
Romans 1:26 NASB For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Romans 1:26 NKJV For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Romans 1:26 KJV For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:26 CEV God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural.
Cherrypicking verses to suit what one believes is exactly what the religious does, and you have yourself admitted that these religious people do not have the truth. So why are you following what they do?
As for the many people who were born with these unnatural desires and call themselves Christians, it is not their fault that they were born into spiritual bondage, because we are at the end of the age and evil had multiplied. Many babies are born with even physical deformities which is the result of sin's effect on the genetics of mankind. They can be freed by God's grace, but they first need to change their attitude of acceptance to that of rejection of their desires, not out of guilt, but out of an eagerness to become holy. If they do not seek to be free, they will be stuck in their desires and be destroyed by it.
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Proverbs 16:25
Whatever I am saying, I am saying it because I want to see you freed from spiritual bondage, along with all the rest of you who share the same bondage. Being in bondage is not your fault, but if you accept this bondage, then it will be to your detriment.
Satan has been very crafty in destroying souls, he sends fake Christians to condemn people for their sins, and make them feel hopeless so they give up on the faith. At the same time, using this tactic of condemnation, the devil drives some people to believe in the lie that since fake Christians make them feel guilty and hopeless when they had no power to overcome their sin, they need not believe what the Bible says and just accept their sins as who they are. Satan has not just done this to people with same sex desires, but to people with all kinds of sins, even to murderers. Even some murderers will say "this is just who I am" but all of that is a lie they have believed in about themselves.
KittyLinda
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Romans 1:24-27
New King James Version
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
1) Lusts of their hearts is not love or marriage.
2) worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator which means IDOLATRY .
3) again vile passions; LUST.
4) They gave up natural use ; they are straight by nature.
The verb is the Greek word afenteV : to leave behind, forsake, neglect, or divorce. This is not a loving gay relationship. It hurts me how you can't see how we make families and live just like any straight couple.
@KittyLinda -- a person can rationalize God's Word as much as they want to -- go into the original languages -- but God's Word Still says that neither two men or two women are to lay together as a man and woman lay together.
Romans 1:26 and 27 are very specific. And it's true that you don't recognize your feelings in that way. But your attitudes Do come through.
The Levituc passage refers to men lying with other men - so what the Old Testament Doesn't include the New Testament Does.
Romans 1:26 and 27 are very specific. And it's true that you don't recognize your feelings in that way. But your attitudes Do come through.
The Levituc passage refers to men lying with other men - so what the Old Testament Doesn't include the New Testament Does.
It breaks God's heart even more that you have believed in a lie about yourself, my heart is heavy because you refuse to forsake the lies of the evil one. Why are you arguing with me about something that will harm you in the end? If I am wrong, I lose nothing. But if you are wrong, your soul is at stake and you will lose everything.
I believe I have already explained why people like you are born with those desires, it is because of spiritual bondage. But you have believed in something else entirely, that all this is somehow your nature - this is a lie from the devil. Do you think it makes sense that God has made some of us with heterosexual desires but some of you with same sex desires? No, God made everyone the same, with the same sexual desires. There was no same sex desires from the time of Adam and Eve for generations, why did that change? Romans explained that change as a result of mankind's rebellion against God, but you rejected what Romans wrote.
Some babies have demons in them from birth, and these can cause issues like birth deformities (physical) or unnatural desires (spiritual). Even in Jesus' time, there was a boy that had demons inside him at a very young age and he had abnormal behavior for many years, but that was not who he is. So reject the lie that abnormal behavior or desires is who you are, because the truth is it is not who you are.
I also told you that you need to seek freedom from your spiritual bondage, not because of guilt or feeling condemned (these things don't come from God anyway), but because you want to be holy. Love does not exclude holiness, God is both love and holy.
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KittyLinda -- your comment "It hurts me now you can't see how we make families and live just like any straight couple." It's because two women being together cannot make a child together. It's biologically not possible. Now, maybe to You and your partner see yourselves as just another straight couple -- but you're NOT.
@KittyLinda - Let me just expose what the devil is trying to do to ruin you, and you can then decide for yourself what you want to do about it. God will not force you to seek freedom from spiritual bondage and lies, and neither can I.
The first tactic the devil used against you was to set you in spiritual bondage to same sex desires, then send fake Christians into your life, using biblical truth to guilt-trip and make you feel condemned and hopeless. Biblical truth was used in an evil way so that people like you will not believe in it anymore, even if the truth will save you eventually. After the devil has successfully convinced you to reject the truth after how you were condemned and guilt-tripped by fake Christians, the next tactic the devil used against you is to make you believe in his lies that your sin is a part of who you are and you can never change - this way you remain in bondage to sin till the day you die - and then the devil has convinced you to destroy yourself by not seeking freedom. I have seen this kind of demonic schemes done in Christian cults in my own country.
Seeking righteousness should have been done willingly with a heart of joy after you have come to the realization of the kind of sacrifice God has done for you, so out of gratitude for Him you seek His righteousness so you can be with Him forever. God then sends His Spirit to dwell in you after you willingly repent, and you struggle against sin because you love God and you know sin caused God's Son to die for you. This is the biblical motivation for rejecting sin and seeking God's righteousness.
But Christian cults set up by the devil make people seek righteousness out of fear, out of guilt and feeling condemned. And since in cults people are actually under the oppression of the devil, they seek righteousness in vain and remain stuck in their sins (how can the devil free you from your sin, he won't), so they feel hopeless when they don't change and blame God and give up on faith. Or they reject the truth entirely and go after lies, lies which often make them feel ok in their sins. But all of this is the insidious way the devil used to dissuade people from seeking the truth and discourage people from seeking freedom from sinful desires.
The devil used condemnation and fearmongering in his preaching of the Gospel because he wants you and the others who are deceived to believe that God's way of righteousness makes you feel condemned and guilty and hopeless, so that you will see God as a tyrant, reject His truth and instead choose to die in sin. This is the reality of what many of you are going through, and you need to reject him and his lies because these lies will destroy you.
The Gospel said we are not to be ignorant of the devil's schemes.
The first tactic the devil used against you was to set you in spiritual bondage to same sex desires, then send fake Christians into your life, using biblical truth to guilt-trip and make you feel condemned and hopeless. Biblical truth was used in an evil way so that people like you will not believe in it anymore, even if the truth will save you eventually. After the devil has successfully convinced you to reject the truth after how you were condemned and guilt-tripped by fake Christians, the next tactic the devil used against you is to make you believe in his lies that your sin is a part of who you are and you can never change - this way you remain in bondage to sin till the day you die - and then the devil has convinced you to destroy yourself by not seeking freedom. I have seen this kind of demonic schemes done in Christian cults in my own country.
Seeking righteousness should have been done willingly with a heart of joy after you have come to the realization of the kind of sacrifice God has done for you, so out of gratitude for Him you seek His righteousness so you can be with Him forever. God then sends His Spirit to dwell in you after you willingly repent, and you struggle against sin because you love God and you know sin caused God's Son to die for you. This is the biblical motivation for rejecting sin and seeking God's righteousness.
But Christian cults set up by the devil make people seek righteousness out of fear, out of guilt and feeling condemned. And since in cults people are actually under the oppression of the devil, they seek righteousness in vain and remain stuck in their sins (how can the devil free you from your sin, he won't), so they feel hopeless when they don't change and blame God and give up on faith. Or they reject the truth entirely and go after lies, lies which often make them feel ok in their sins. But all of this is the insidious way the devil used to dissuade people from seeking the truth and discourage people from seeking freedom from sinful desires.
The devil used condemnation and fearmongering in his preaching of the Gospel because he wants you and the others who are deceived to believe that God's way of righteousness makes you feel condemned and guilty and hopeless, so that you will see God as a tyrant, reject His truth and instead choose to die in sin. This is the reality of what many of you are going through, and you need to reject him and his lies because these lies will destroy you.
The Gospel said we are not to be ignorant of the devil's schemes.
@KittyLinda - there is a Chinese wise saying that good medicine is bitter to the taste. The truth may be hard to accept, but it will prove itself right with time. I suspect that as I expose the schemes of the evil spiritual forces behind your bondage, there will be negative feelings against me. Even my own parents harbored negative feelings against me when I told them the truth about demons (and they were atheists who don't even believe in a spiritual world), so I know demons will drive people to have negative feelings towards those who speak the truth. I hope you do know the source of those feelings now (if you do have them) that I tell you they come from demons. I look forward to seeing you freed from these evil entities like I was, but you have to be willing to be freed first.
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