The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[New Legacy]

One cannot be assured of salvation in this life, nor understand it sufficiently until this is Scripturally settled and comprehended.

Are you actually arguing that unless you agree with this particular doctrine, you aren't saved? Where does the bible say that?

Lacking the proper understanding here will result is misunderstanding and deficient learning in many doctrinal areas of Scripture, until the Spirit eventually resolves this in the believer.

This has nothing to do with not understanding scripture. People with almost no knowledge of the bible, to scholars of the bible believe this. This is something which is taught - someone put together scriptures in order to put forward this doctrine. This doctrine and how to extrapolate this conclusion is then taught if anyone is interested. Other people point out other scriptures which disagree with it.

I must confess I find the idea that God will teach you what you need to know to be a bit absurd and unscriptural. Absurd because every Christian has a different view. If this was true then all Christians would believe the same things. Unscriptural because it isn't in the bible.

 

[Glow]

Salvation has different aspects:
Salvation from eternal hellfire- this cannot be lost, because when a person is born again they are delivered from death to life, and become God's child. The lake of fire is for the devil and his children.
Salvation of the soul - this can be lost, e.g. being cast out into outer darkness, disobedient servants etc.
Salvation of the body - this can be lost. (Phil 3:11 - resurrection was something Paul strived to attain)

What do you mean by salvation of the soul and salvation of the body?

 

[Glow]

Are you actually arguing that unless you agree with this particular doctrine, you aren't saved? Where does the bible say that?



This has nothing to do with not understanding scripture. People with almost no knowledge of the bible, to scholars of the bible believe this. This is something which is taught - someone put together scriptures in order to put forward this doctrine. This doctrine and how to extrapolate this conclusion is then taught if anyone is interested. Other people point out other scriptures which disagree with it.

I must confess I find the idea that God will teach you what you need to know to be a bit absurd and unscriptural. Absurd because every Christian has a different view. If this was true then all Christians would believe the same things. Unscriptural because it isn't in the bible.

There is a scripture that says that God teaches us all we need to know. 1 John 2:27 says:

"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him."

 

[New Legacy]

There is a scripture that says that God teaches us all we need to know. 1 John 2:27 says:

"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him."

The passage is referring to what is taught by the Holy Spirit through the apostles, not private revelation. The concern is that men are introducing a new Gospel (Gnosticism) which denies the relationship between the Father and the Son. If your interpretation was corrected he would not need to say it in the first place.

He is not a man saying to ignore any teachings that comes from the mouths of men. That makes no sense. He is a man inspired by God telling them to continue in the faith they have taught. As is said a few verses early - they already know the faith, so they have no need of 'relearning' it.

My proof that this is the correct interpretation? Reality. No one would believes in this concept agrees with everyone else who does. Also, there would be no need of the bible.

 

[Glow]

The passage is referring to what is taught by the Holy Spirit through the apostles, not private revelation. The concern is that men are introducing a new Gospel (Gnosticism) which denies the relationship between the Father and the Son. If your interpretation was corrected he would not need to say it in the first place.

He is not a man saying to ignore any teachings that comes from the mouths of men. That makes no sense. He is a man inspired by God telling them to continue in the faith they have taught. As is said a few verses early - they already know the faith, so they have no need of 'relearning' it.

My proof that this is the correct interpretation? Reality. No one would believes in this concept agrees with everyone else who does. Also, there would be no need of the bible.

If your interpretation were correct, then that would mean that the apostles were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit into all knowledge, while other believers are not. They are guided by the Holy Spirit into knowledge, and all other Christians are not? That doesn't make sense to me, and scripture doesn't support it. John 14:26 says:

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

 

[New Legacy]

If your interpretation were correct, then that would mean that the apostles were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit into all knowledge, while other believers are not. They are guided by the Holy Spirit into knowledge, and all other Christians are not? That doesn't make sense to me, and scripture doesn't support it. John 14:26 says:

"But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

Yes, but in different ways, which is WHY there is a bible in the first place. The Holy Spirit helps the apostles to teach what is to be believed, while the Holy Spirit helps protect the faithful in what is to be believed. That is why the bible exists- because the apostles taught.

If the Holy Spirit did the same for the apostles as did the faithful, then there would be no bible - no need for apostles even. Having the apostles, having an authority that cannot be claimed by the average Christian safeguards the faith from false teachers. The epistles are almost all written BECAUSE the faithful got something wrong and needed their guidance.

 

[NetChaplain]

Are you actually arguing that unless you agree with this particular doctrine, you aren't saved? Where does the bible say that?

Not that you're not saved but that you "will not be assured" that you are, even though you are. I believe if one cannot be assured of being saved he cannot be strong in the faith, but yet still be saved, just oppressed more than should be.

Faith in Grace is eternal salvation, and salvation is evinced by one walking in the Father's "good pleasures" (Phil 2:13). The desire of His will is due to Him working it in you, by the Spirit opposing the old man (flesh--sinful nature) in you, so that you cannot do what you would otherwise do (Gal 5:17).

 

[farout]

Yes, but in different ways, which is WHY there is a bible in the first place. The Holy Spirit helps the apostles to teach what is to be believed, while the Holy Spirit helps protect the faithful in what is to be believed. That is why the bible exists- because the apostles taught.

If the Holy Spirit did the same for the apostles as did the faithful, then there would be no bible - no need for apostles even. Having the apostles, having an authority that cannot be claimed by the average Christian safeguards the faith from false teachers. The epistles are almost all written BECAUSE the faithful got something wrong and needed their guidance.

I have asked for scriptural proof of your statements, but so far you have give one reference in Matthew that really was not related to your opinions. Here is my point, the average Christian really has heard a message from the TV or on the radio, or maybe at church. The person who preached that you have no security, may or may not do much study, may or may not have any formal training in Biblical studies, may or may not know how to even look up words in the Bible to do a word study in the Biblical languages. Therefore, a average person needs to spend some money and get some basic word tools that altogether would be less than $ 100. US. But unless a person is homeless 95% of Christians can afford to do get these tools. However, with only 10% of Christians who even read he Bible just a few times a month, I doubt there is much interest, after all it is so much easier to take the word of someone else and just repeat what they have told you.

A person who does no study on their own has no reason to have any reason to believe in eternal security. However, IF a person has done their own study and honestly can support their view with Scripture then it becomes a matter o HONEST difference of opinion, and real genuine OLLOWERS of Christ can still love, respect and be kind to each other. Unless we support our view with several chapters of Scripture, and keep it in context, it is only a personal opinion.

 

[New Legacy]

I have asked for scriptural proof of your statements, but so far you have give one reference in Matthew that really was not related to your opinions.

What specifically do you want - or do you just say you want something from scripture without stating it for the purpose of making the person seem to be outside of scripture?

Here is my point, the average Christian really has heard a message from the TV or on the radio, or maybe at church. The person who preached that you have no security, may or may not do much study, may or may not have any formal training in Biblical studies, may or may not know how to even look up words in the Bible to do a word study in the Biblical languages.

NO ONE HAS SECURITY. PERIOD. If you believe in once saved always saved, then you may or may not be saved, you have no idea. People get saved and then leave the faith - so they are said to have never been saved. If you believe that faith is something you can walk away from then you too have no security other than to maintain and strive in your faith - which is heck of a lot better than thinking you are saved and not knowing if you really are. One saved always saved has no method to determine if you are saved, That is because ultimately, somehow will fail.

Therefore, a average person needs to spend some money and get some basic word tools that altogether would be less than $ 100. US. But unless a person is homeless 95% of Christians can afford to do get these tools. However, with only 10% of Christians who even read he Bible just a few times a month, I doubt there is much interest, after all it is so much easier to take the word of someone else and just repeat what they have told you.

A person who does no study on their own has no reason to have any reason to believe in eternal security. However, IF a person has done their own study and honestly can support their view with Scripture then it becomes a matter o HONEST difference of opinion, and real genuine OLLOWERS of Christ can still love, respect and be kind to each other. Unless we support our view with several chapters of Scripture, and keep it in context, it is only a personal opinion.

That isn't how scripture study works. Money is never an issue - because people, as this forum demonstrates, freely give verses and opinions. People hear ideas, notions and philosophies within society. People get ideas for free among preachers and other Christians. Every Christian has their own beliefs and they are more than happy to share it.

A person will subscribe to views that suit them. One person is very insecure - so they want to think their salvation is secure - so they learn from those that have that belief. Another person is a homosexual and he learns how to interpret the bible to make it okay. Another person wants a divorce, so they learn how it is okay to have several wives. Another wants an abortion, so they find scripture for it. Another hates abortion, so they find scripture for it.

 

[New Legacy]

Not that you're not saved but that you "will not be assured" that you are, even though you are.

No one is assured of salvation, even people that believe in once saved always saved- because they all admit that there are people that believe they are saved but really aren't.

No one is assured of salvation. Either you are saved and you have no idea if you really are - or you are saved, being saved, and will be saved, so long as you maintain your faith. The latter sounds a lot better to me.

I believe if one cannot be assured of being saved he cannot be strong in the faith, but yet still be saved, just oppressed more than should be.

According to once saved always saved, no one has any means to understand if they are really saved. The reason is that the minute they come up with a standard for determining if you are really saved - you will find someone that fits that standard - and leaves the faith

Faith in Grace is eternal salvation,

Salvation is eternal in death.

[qupte\and salvation is evinced by one walking in the Father's "good pleasures" (Phil 2:13). The desire of His will is due to Him working it in you, by the Spirit opposing the old man (flesh--sinful nature) in you, so that you cannot do what you would otherwise do (Gal 5:17).[/QUOTE]

That's all well and good, but there are plenty of people that are no different than you or I, perhaps even more evident of being 'saved' who leave the faith./

 

[New Legacy]

btw netchapalin - how many units of chaplaincy do you have?

 

[NetChaplain]

btw netchapalin - how many units of chaplaincy do you have?

I didn't realize you were offended. Sorry and wish you His best!

 

[New Legacy]

I am not offended.

 

[Fenn]

What specifically do you want - or do you just say you want something from scripture without stating it for the purpose of making the person seem to be outside of scripture?

The point of posting scripture is not just @farout personal preference, but a rule of this forum. The reason it is a rule is because we treat the Bible, the Word, as authority and we compare things to it. If it contrasts the Word, then we know it for false. If you are posting without the Word, then it is just your words which, no offense, have no authority over us. However, if you are able to post your words backed by the Word's of God showing that your opinion is in line with God's, then we can judge the value.

1 Thessalonians 5

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

NO ONE HAS SECURITY. PERIOD. If you believe in once saved always saved, then you may or may not be saved, you have no idea. People get saved and then leave the faith - so they are said to have never been saved. If you believe that faith is something you can walk away from then you too have no security other than to maintain and strive in your faith - which is heck of a lot better than thinking you are saved and not knowing if you really are. One saved always saved has no method to determine if you are saved, That is because ultimately, somehow will fail.

I believe the Bible is very clear about how to become saved, what life looks like after salvation, and whether or not you can be secure.

1 John 2

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


It is very clear that if they leave the faith, then they never truly believed and never truly gave God authority over theirs lives. This means everyone is responsible for themselves. It means that we can be secure in our salvation. It also means that we cannot be secure in someone else's salvation.

A person will subscribe to views that suit them. One person is very insecure - so they want to think their salvation is secure - so they learn from those that have that belief. Another person is a homosexual and he learns how to interpret the bible to make it okay. Another person wants a divorce, so they learn how it is okay to have several wives. Another wants an abortion, so they find scripture for it. Another hates abortion, so they find scripture for it.

I left out the part about the money and stuff. I have nothing to say about that.

This last quote is disturbing. True in part. There will be people who twist the Word to their way of thinking. They will always exist. That does not change the fact that there is an actual Absolute Truth in God's Word.

 

[NetChaplain]

The point of posting scripture is not just @farout personal preference, but a rule of this forum. The reason it is a rule is because we treat the Bible, the Word, as authority and we compare things to it. If it contrasts the Word, then we know it for false. If you are posting without the Word, then it is just your words which, no offense, have no authority over us. However, if you are able to post your words backed by the Word's of God showing that your opinion is in line with God's, then we can judge the value.

1 Thessalonians 5

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.



I believe the Bible is very clear about how to become saved, what life looks like after salvation, and whether or not you can be secure.

1 John 2

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


It is very clear that if they leave the faith, then they never truly believed and never truly gave God authority over theirs lives. This means everyone is responsible for themselves. It means that we can be secure in our salvation. It also means that we cannot be secure in someone else's salvation.




I left out the part about the money and stuff. I have nothing to say about that.

This last quote is disturbing. True in part. There will be people who twist the Word to their way of thinking. They will always exist. That does not change the fact that there is an actual Absolute Truth in God's Word.

Good instruction! And NL, I'm glad I misinterpreted you and that you're not offended!

God Be Blessed!!

 

[eddieb]

First off i would like to say it is possible to backslide because i have done it, and when I did God wouldnt speak to me in any various form He had previously. (Also it speaks of this in the bible how Gods people backslid. God even said it to his people they had backslid.) before I was a stout calvinist, which is where the belief once saved always saved flows freely from. I do not believe this way anymore. However any who believe you cannot fall away from God or His grace i urgently challenge you to examine this scripture which is the scripture God showed me as i was trying to receive grace once more. pray about this. ask to know the truth. and if you do as it says in 2nd proverbs, to seek as tho it is gold or silver, God will give it. read the following verses carefully.

this is out of Ezekiel 33
12 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

keep in mind it does speak of "the law" here, however the fufilment of the law is to love God and your neighbor. If you Love God you will obey his commands. it is true, you dont earn salvation from keeping the law as it says clearly above, but if you do Love God then you do what he commands.
i would like to say also i dont want to argue about it. if after you read this post and you do some reading and praying you still believe differently as I do, thats ok. The important thing is Jesus Christ, not specific doctorine. What i mean more specificly is that neither doctorine says you loose your salvation due to doctorinal beliefs. but both do say That name, Jesus Christ, the name above all other names, is the one to believe on and the only name in which salvation is found. The only reason i say this is I know first hand how lonely it is with no comforter(even tho when i had fallen i could still speak in tounges and did so just to see if he had left or forsaken me, which obviously he didnt), or with no feeling as tho you are heard when you pray. I urge any believer to keep your robe spotless. either way you believe weather its once saved always saved or that you can fall away, God says be Holy as He Is holy. it is pleasing to God to do so. and to this date I have experienced nothing worse than the feeling you get when you know because of your sin, you have walked away from God or that when he looks upon you he is not pleased.
romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

God is Love.

 

[james1523]

What do you mean by salvation of the soul and salvation of the body?

Human beings are created in the image of the Trinity, a human being has 3 parts - spirit , soul and body. All three parts were affected by sin. God desires to save all 3 parts. Once time accepting Christ as Savior saves our spirit and gives us entry to Heaven but does not save our soul and our bodies. For this reason we need to be saved in soul and body also. God wants to save our whole being, not just our spirit:

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit salvation is by faith in Christ alone.

Salvation of soul requires our effort to love the Lord, obey His Word, put off the sinful flesh, and cooperate with the Spirit of God:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

The spirit is saved by faith in Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Christ.

Salvation of the body is when our mortal bodies take on immortality.


1 Corinthians 15:52-53: “ In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” Philippians 3:21 also speaks of our transfiguration: “Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory.

 

[New Legacy]

The point of posting scripture is not just personal preference, but a rule of this forum. The reason it is a rule is because we treat the Bible, the Word, as authority and we compare things to it. If it contrasts the Word, then we know it for false. If you are posting without the Word, then it is just your words which, no offense, have no authority over us. However, if you are able to post your words backed by the Word's of God showing that your opinion is in line with God's, then we can judge the value.

1 Thessalonians 5

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

This is a strawman because you are arguing against that which I never said. I never said we should not refer to the scriptures.

I asked you what you felt I needed to support through scripture. You refuse to do this. Your argument is rhetoric - games with language, rather than going over the facts and scripture. If you feel that I have neglected to properly quote scripture in one of my posts, then tell me what you want scriptural evidence for.
Saying 'you need to post scripture' isn't useful.

I believe the Bible is very clear about how to become saved, what life looks like after salvation, and whether or not you can be secure.

1 John 2

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

This passage suggests that a group of people never were part of the faith, which as a bible believer, I agree with. This says nothing about people being unable to leave the faith, only that some people were never part of the faith.

Again - also, were is the security? How does one know they are truly Christian and never leave the faith?

It is very clear that if they leave the faith, then they never truly believed and never truly gave God authority over theirs lives. This means everyone is responsible for themselves. It means that we can be secure in our salvation. It also means that we cannot be secure in someone else's salvation.

That's a logical contradiction - you can't leave what you didn't belong to.

You cannot be secure in your salvation unless you have a way of knowing you are saved. Even if you believe in once saved always saved, then you have to admit there are some people who, though believing and acting in every way as a believer, were never truly believers. So in what way do you know which group you belong to?

I left out the part about the money and stuff. I have nothing to say about that.

This last quote is disturbing. True in part. There will be people who twist the Word to their way of thinking. They will always exist. That does not change the fact that there is an actual Absolute Truth in God's Word.

No, God's word is absolute truth. BTW - most people capitalize Word when referring to Christ and use word when referring to scripture. That is because God's revelation of Himself is through His Word (which is a FULL revelation) which is different from his Word, which is a partial revelation. That is because the bible is finite and cannot fully contain something infinite (Christ). John 21 speaks of this.

 

[New Legacy]

Human beings are created in the image of the Trinity, a human being has 3 parts - spirit , soul and body. All three parts were affected by sin. God desires to save all 3 parts. Once time accepting Christ as Savior saves our spirit and gives us entry to Heaven but does not save our soul and our bodies. For this reason we need to be saved in soul and body also. God wants to save our whole being, not just our spirit:

1 Thess 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit salvation is by faith in Christ alone.

Salvation of soul requires our effort to love the Lord, obey His Word, put off the sinful flesh, and cooperate with the Spirit of God:

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1 Peter 1:9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

The spirit is saved by faith in Christ, while the soul is saved by faithfulness to Christ.

Salvation of the body is when our mortal bodies take on immortality.


1 Corinthians 15:52-53: “ In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” Philippians 3:21 also speaks of our transfiguration: “Who will transfigure the body of our humiliation to be conformed to the body of His glory.

The bible's use of the words soul, spirit, and body refer to Greek concepts. The body is the material thing, the flesh. The spirit is the principle of the thing - what something does that defines what it is. That is, an ape has an ape spirit and so does ape things. The soul is the power of something. Lifeless objects have no power - no action. All living things have a soul which takes in food or energy and growths and repairs. Animals have a soul of locomotion in which they can freely move around. Humans have a soul of intellect which provides them reasons and immortality.

 

[james1523]

The bible's use of the words soul, spirit, and body refer to Greek concepts. The body is the material thing, the flesh. The spirit is the principle of the thing - what something does that defines what it is. That is, an ape has an ape spirit and so does ape things. The soul is the power of something. Lifeless objects have no power - no action. All living things have a soul which takes in food or energy and growths and repairs. Animals have a soul of locomotion in which they can freely move around. Humans have a soul of intellect which provides them reasons and immortality.

Where do you get your definition of spirit, soul and body from? A soul cannot take in food or energy, it is the immaterial part of man - mind, emotions, will. The spirit is more than a principle, a spirit is something which God gives Ecc 12:7, and can be embittered (psalm 73:21). A principle cannot be embittered or given or taken back to God.