The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[farout]

What specifically do you want - or do you just say you want something from scripture without stating it for the purpose of making the person seem to be outside of scripture?



NO ONE HAS SECURITY. PERIOD. If you believe in once saved always saved, then you may or may not be saved, you have no idea. People get saved and then leave the faith - so they are said to have never been saved. If you believe that faith is something you can walk away from then you too have no security other than to maintain and strive in your faith - which is heck of a lot better than thinking you are saved and not knowing if you really are. One saved always saved has no method to determine if you are saved, That is because ultimately, somehow will fail.



That isn't how scripture study works. Money is never an issue - because people, as this forum demonstrates, freely give verses and opinions. People hear ideas, notions and philosophies within society. People get ideas for free among preachers and other Christians. Every Christian has their own beliefs and they are more than happy to share it.

A person will subscribe to views that suit them. One person is very insecure - so they want to think their salvation is secure - so they learn from those that have that belief. Another person is a homosexual and he learns how to interpret the bible to make it okay. Another person wants a divorce, so they learn how it is okay to have several wives. Another wants an abortion, so they find scripture for it. Another hates abortion, so they find scripture for it.

Well I just guess Jesus was just talking, and not knowing what He was saying when in John 10 He aid no man can be plucked out o His Fathers hand,. peaking about genuine FOLLOWES. of Jesus. I am asking, is that what you mean?

I asked you, for scripture that you draw your doctrine of unsecurity" from. I guess I was asking too much, or being too nosy. Sorry, I thought this was a dialogue, and Scripture was our source.

 

[Chad]

I asked you what you felt I needed to support through scripture.

This entire thread you have not provided a single Scripture. You're disregarding the forum rules. I suggest you provide Scripture, not your opinions from now on. You have a discord spirit from your posts and lack of Scripture. Plus, from your profile as well.

Are you Born Again?:
Define Born Again

You seem to just want to air your opinions instead of preach the gospel accordingly. You cannot preach without the bible.

NO ONE HAS SECURITY. PERIOD.

John 3:15
Romans 8:30-34

Cap it off with...

Romans 8:38-39

 

[New Legacy]

Where do you get your definition of spirit, soul and body from? A soul cannot take in food or energy, it is the immaterial part of man - mind, emotions, will. The spirit is more than a principle, a spirit is something which God gives Ecc 12:7, and can be embittered (psalm 73:21). A principle cannot be embittered or given or taken back to God.

Socratic philosophy, which was the basis of Greek thought of the time which dominated the thinking of the area. The soul is the 'power' of the material. There is material which is lifeless, such as a rock, and there is material which has life and what makes it living is some power - which they called souls. A deer appears to have some kind of power, which compels it to drink from streams and eat plants. When something dies, it no longer has a soul powering it. It becomes a lifeless material which decays.

A spirit can absolutely be embittered. The spirit, in Greek thought, is what makes us what we are. For Socratics, the principle is what makes something unique, what makes it it.

 

[New Legacy]

Well I just guess Jesus was just talking, and not knowing what He was saying when in John 10 He aid no man can be plucked out o His Fathers hand,. peaking about genuine FOLLOWES. of Jesus. I am asking, is that what you mean?

We both agree, no one can be taken. That does not mean someone can't choose to leave.

I asked you, for scripture that you draw your doctrine of unsecurity" from. I guess I was asking too much, or being too nosy. Sorry, I thought this was a dialogue, and Scripture was our source.

You didn't ask what you wanted specifically. Logically, we can arrive at a lack of security because there are people that believe and act as if they are saved, but then leave. How then, does one know they are saved and thus feel secure? Unless you can answer that, you have no security - you may or may not be saved and you have no way of knowing.

In terms of scripture in support of my view- there is the parable of the sower (Mark 4, Matthew 13, Luke 8), which is found in all three synoptic Gospels. Some seeds are devoured, some grow, and then die, some grow and make it. How can some seeds grow? If nothing we ever there, then the young plants could never exist.

Some seeds hear the word, but never take it in.
Some seeds take the word, but only accept it slightly - they leave the faith when things get difficult.
Some seeds take the word, but become obsessed with other things (things of the world) and lose faith.
Some seeds take the world, and keep it in their heart for life.

In all examples, life existed, the seed was planted. The plant or faith died later on due to conditions. The once saved always saved ignores the second and third. It says something was never there or it was always there, and this is not what Jesus taught us in the parable.

 

[New Legacy]

This entire thread you have not provided a single Scripture.

Hi Chad, please note that I asked repeatedly what they wanted scripture support for, which I am happy to provide.

You're disregarding the forum rules.

I guess I misunderstood. It was my understanding the rules ask that you provide scriptural evidence when making a biblical point. I have been inquiring about the points of others. I participated in a topic which supported what they believed was a biblical point. I pointed out the logical inconsistencies. I did not create the topic to posit a particular point, someone else did.

I notice in the Gospels that Jesus offers reason and scripture. Jesus did not get followers simply by quoting scripture and demanding they accept His views. This is the model I try to follow.
It was the Pharisees that used power and their views of scripture alone to condemn Jesus. If what they said was right, then the truth would be seen. A person who is in and of the truth has no fear of someone they believe is wrong. A person who has no truth within Him will rattle on endlessly with condemnations and do everything in their power to quiet another. They do not love the truth, the love their truth.
That is the model I follow.

I suggest you provide Scripture, not your opinions from now on.

I thought I had been pointing out the logic of arguments, not offering opinions. So that I do not do it in the future, can you let me know what I offered opinions?

You have a discord spirit from your posts and lack of Scripture. Plus, from your profile as well.

Not sure in what I have shown a discord? What is wrong with my profile?

You seem to just want to air your opinions instead of preach the gospel accordingly. You cannot preach without the bible.

It hasn't been my goal to 'preach', it has been my goal to understand and get at the arguments of others logically (and theologically).
Christians can quote scripture all day. They end up talking past each other because on person quotes this, another that, and another another thing.
So then, how do we know which is an authentic interpretation of scripture? If it makes sense. God is not the author of confusion, is He?
Do you believe in only quoting scriptures - or also getting at the logic and argument of what is being said, to discern the truth?

John 3:15

I don't see how this suggests that one can never lose faith. If you persist in your faith, then surely you will gain eternal life. I don't see how this can be interpreted as if you have faith, you can never lose it, and so once you have faith, you will have eternal life.

Romans 8:30-34

I am not seeing the doctrine of once saved always saved. This scripture does not say faith cannot be lost, does it?

Romans 8:38-39

Again, nothing but ourselves can separate us from God. Where does this say we cannot walk away?

 

[farout]

"One thing is certain: It is not our grip on God that keeps us safe, but the power of Jesus' grasp. No one can take us out of His grasp. No one can take us out of His grasp----not the devil, not even ourselves. Once we're in His hands, He will not let go."
by
David Roper
OUR DAILY BREAD
December 31, 2013

 

[DHC]

Your salvation is conditional and is based on the belief in Jesus Christ.

That is the Gospel that was preached by the apostles.

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in".
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

As the scripture above declares you must continue to believe in Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

not even ourselves.

That is wrong and is the most dangerous thing said in this thread. It reminds me of the lie, "Ye shall surely not die." but twisted to say, "Ye shall surely never lose your salvation."

 

[eddieb]

I think it is dangerous to teach once saved always saved. why? because salvation is not simply a one time deal. the "once saved" part is the born again, weight lifted off your shoulders experience. this is known as justification or being justified. as in just-if-I'd never sinned. however salvation dosent stop here. The next part is sanctification. It is the putting off of the old man and the putting on of the new. dont believe it??? then read what The Word of God says in philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It instructs to work out your salvation. This is an action, a verb. It tells you there is something you must be doing. it dose not imply the deed is done and over with. and this action is the way you live. Evenmore, by doing this you absolutly do not "earn" salvation, and this is where doctorines twist and cause strife because people think by doing what God/the bible says to do is earning salvation, which it is not. the third part is Glorification. It is where we recieve a spiritual body and become "like christ" in eternity.

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (but...but...but..... what if you dont endure??? Hmmmm)

salvation is past, you have been saved. Present, you are being saved, and future, you will be saved. once saved always saved overlooks the sanctification part and jumps to eternal bliss. [h=3][/h]

edit: keep your lamps burning.

 

[farout]

That is wrong and is the most dangerous thing said in this thread. It reminds me of the lie, "Ye shall surely not die." but twisted to say, "Ye shall surely never lose your salvation."

So are you saying that a genuine FOLLOWER on Jesus would want to turn their back on Christ Jesus? If s where in Scripture would you draw the proof a real born again believer would reject Christ? I stress real, genuine, and born again.

Am I wrong is thinking you believe the security of the believer is not taught in the Bible? If o can you quote me a Scripture that says that?

I think a kinder more respectful tone is called for in a dialogue where there are differences of opinion. No one who is a follower of Jesus needs to insult or slam a brother or sister. There is room to allow for differences of understanding. When rude or harsh words come out the dialogue has lost any worthiness of Christians to make remarks scripture is our authority, and referencing a scriptural text is a solid place to base our opinion on. No one knows it all and no one is always correct. Being human I sure miss perfection by a huge miss, Blessings.

 

[farout]

I think it is dangerous to teach once saved always saved. why? because salvation is not simply a one time deal. the "once saved" part is the born again, weight lifted off your shoulders experience. this is known as justification or being justified. as in just-if-I'd never sinned. however salvation dosent stop here. The next part is sanctification. It is the putting off of the old man and the putting on of the new. dont believe it??? then read what The Word of God says in philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It instructs to work out your salvation. This is an action, a verb. It tells you there is something you must be doing. it dose not imply the deed is done and over with. and this action is the way you live. Evenmore, by doing this you absolutly do not "earn" salvation, and this is where doctorines twist and cause strife because people think by doing what God/the bible says to do is earning salvation, which it is not. the third part is Glorification. It is where we recieve a spiritual body and become "like christ" in eternity.

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (but...but...but..... what if you dont endure??? Hmmmm)

salvation is past, you have been saved. Present, you are being saved, and future, you will be saved. once saved always saved overlooks the sanctification part and jumps to eternal bliss. [h=3][/h]

edit: keep your lamps burning.

Who keeps us? Who has given us the Hoy Spirit a deposit as guarantee that we are HIS? Is our salvation based on our continuing to be acceptable? hat sins would cause us to loose our salvation? Is it our effort or our goodness that holds us in salvation? Does that mean is it our goodness that keeps us Secure in Christ? When Paul say's it is by RAC we have been saved by GRACE and not of our selves, what does that mean?

Please I am saying unless we become genuine FOLLWERS od Jesus we ARE NOT saved! We no longer can live like unregenerate heathen, we need to repent, and confess our sins. 1 John 1:9 is very clear on that. people who base their salvation on a prayer they said but never became a FOLLOWER are sadly lost.

 

[ewq1938]

I said nothing harsh or wrong. You did by claiming salvation cannot be lost. It's wrong and dangerous. If a true believer decides to "switch sides" their original promise of salvation is revoked, a loss of that salvation promise.

No one has salvation until the day of judgment when salvation is given. You either stay on the narrow path to life, or you leave it.

So are you saying that a genuine FOLLOWER on Jesus would want to turn their back on Christ Jesus? If s where in Scripture would you draw the proof a real born again believer would reject Christ? I stress real, genuine, and born again.

Am I wrong is thinking you believe the security of the believer is not taught in the Bible? If o can you quote me a Scripture that says that?

I think a kinder more respectful tone is called for in a dialogue where there are differences of opinion. No one who is a follower of Jesus needs to insult or slam a brother or sister. There is room to allow for differences of understanding. When rude or harsh words come out the dialogue has lost any worthiness of Christians to make remarks scripture is our authority, and referencing a scriptural text is a solid place to base our opinion on. No one knows it all and no one is always correct. Being human I sure miss perfection by a huge miss, Blessings.

 

[james1523]

matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (but...but...but..... what if you dont endure??? Hmmmm)

To the contrary, there is no "if" here in this verse, Christ is encouraging the believers, that having endured to the end (of their lives, or persecution), they will surely (shall) be saved.
Christ is not making a conditional law or command, that one will face God's wrath and judgement should they not be able to endure persecution. Such an interpretation is not in keeping with the heart of the (kind, merciful and compassionate) Savior nor the context and purpose of the passage. I suppose a religious mind will often interpret verses of scripture as black and white, right and wrong, religious duties, laws or commands to be obeyed, with consequences, rather than gaining the true meaning of the passage. That's what happens when the Bible is thought of as a book of rules, principles and instructions to live by, rather than a book of life.
The wrong assumption is that "saved" here refers to salvation from God's judgement. The wrong implication is that salvation from God's judgement is by our endurance rather than Christ's blood. However I believe the context of Matt 24:13, and reading together with Matt 10:21-23, is to be saved from the end-time persecution on the earth, and "enduring unto the end" refers to enduring the period of persecution, even unto death if necessary, after which they shall be saved.

 

[james1523]

In support of eternal security, we have the encouraging words of the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians, written to an immature fleshly church of confusion and disorder, who lacked love and misused spiritual gifts, yet did not lack in God's grace, spiritual gifts, or awaiting the return of Christ. Where Paul affirmed that God will keep them firm unto the end, to be blameless in the day Christ returns, and who states that "God is faithful". The Christian can always testify that "God is faithful". Our eternal security is based upon God's faithfulness, not our own. We should never think or say "I am faithful", and make that a basis of our eternal security.

1 Corinthians 1:
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then we have 1 Peter 5:10, which states with confidence, how the Lord will confirm and strengthen and establish His people:
[h=3]10 And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. 11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.[/h]
And then we have Luke 22:32, where the Lord Himself is praying , that Peter's faith would not fail, even though Peter denied Christ 3 times, and Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died - more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Since we have such great and wonderful promises from our Father who is faithful, and from the Son who is interceding for us and praying that our faith would not fail, how can anyone not believe their souls are secure in the potter's hand?

 

[ewq1938]

Hebrews also speaks about those who might leave the faith and what will come of them so while I assume most will stay in the faith and receive salvation, there is the possibility of some leaving and not making it. OSAS is a lie, the promise of salvation CAN be lost if you choose to reject it after receiving it.


UOTE=james1523;234870]In support of eternal security, we have the encouraging words of the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians, written to an immature fleshly church of confusion and disorder, who lacked love and misused spiritual gifts, yet did not lack in God's grace, spiritual gifts, or awaiting the return of Christ. Where Paul affirmed that God will keep them firm unto the end, to be blameless in the day Christ returns, and who states that "God is faithful". The Christian can always testify that "God is faithful". Our eternal security is based upon God's faithfulness, not our own. The moment we think or say "I am faithful", and make that a basis of our eternal security, is the moment our souls are in danger.

1 Corinthians 1:
4 I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. 5 For in him you have been enriched in every way—with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge— 6 God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. 7 Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. 8 He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.[/QUOTE]

 

[Davy]

Once saved always saved, is that really scriptural? Here is a few of my thoughts on this subject.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:13, (NASB) "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." So if a person does not endure to the end, will they still be saved? Obviously not, otherwise it would be pointless to make such a statement. This reminded me of the account of king Solomon, who started out being faithful to God, and built God a great temple. But he was warned by God in 1 Chronicles 28:9, (NASB): "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever." And that is what happened to Solomon, 1 Kings 11:7-10, (NASB) says: "Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon. Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods. Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice." God Then rejected Solomon and split his kingdom in two. (1 Kings 11:11)

This was not the first time God had rejected so called saved people. Jude 1:5, 6, (NASB) says: "Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day." God repeatedly punished and destroyed rebellious Israelites, and even angels who once walked among him in heaven are now awaiting to be cast off forever. Solomon, the rebellious Israelites and the once faithful angels have been rejected by God, because they all have free will! So how can they be once saved, always saved?

Finally, Paul wrote in Hebrews 10:26, 27, (NASB) states: "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." So when a person is saved, but willfully practices sin and does not repent, they will face the fury of a fire which will consume the adversary, Satan. Not be once saved and always saved!

 

[eddieb]

Who keeps us? Who has given us the Hoy Spirit a deposit as guarantee that we are HIS? Is our salvation based on our continuing to be acceptable? hat sins would cause us to loose our salvation? Is it our effort or our goodness that holds us in salvation? Does that mean is it our goodness that keeps us Secure in Christ? When Paul say's it is by RAC we have been saved by GRACE and not of our selves, what does that mean?

Please I am saying unless we become genuine FOLLWERS od Jesus we ARE NOT saved! We no longer can live like unregenerate heathen, we need to repent, and confess our sins. 1 John 1:9 is very clear on that. people who base their salvation on a prayer they said but never became a FOLLOWER are sadly lost.

you misunderstood what i said. what i said was we DO NOT earn it. Its by grace thru faith. Again, I said we dont earn it. What my point is is that we arent merely speaking of salvation from eternal torment here. The bible says the gift of God is eternal life. And life is for the living. The bible has been called "instructions on how to live" or a "manual" now when you have a car adventually it will "break down" and need to be "fixed". so you look in "the manual" on how to fix it, or a better way to say it would be "keep your motor running". The bible is the manual on how we "keep our spiritual motor running" . We are actualy in agreement on whats being said here and i can prove it by your own words. look to the end of your above quoted post. this is where you said "is very clear on that. people who base their salvation on a prayer they said but never became a FOLLOWER are sadly lost" but when you accept Jesus in your heart at the time of this prayer, did you not recieve Jesus? Is God a liar? Will He not honor his word? Does he not stand at the door and knock? And after this what is to stop one from turning to sin instead of Following on with The Lord? since the scripture is clear we are a free will being(deuteronomy 30:19).... nothing is stoping us. Is it not in your power to sin at this moment? not that i reccomend it, but still what is stopping you? it is by this "work" we can be confident in we are redeemed. because faith without works is dead. (by grace thru faith) All i am merly saying is that teaching once saved always saved is dangerous and i base this on my own experience and walk with God. I am not speaking of a little sin here and there. I am speaking of sinning so much that it rules your life. So much that when i had allowed it God told me he was weary with my repenting before he quit talking to me. One can draw the conculsion by "once saved always saved" that i have achieved all there is to achive and it dosent matter how I live or how much sin i do, I am still saved(your words said FOLLOWER which is actively doing it). And yet your own words confirm what i was saying, which is we must live it. What I am saying is it is possible for us to walk away from God. and i know this because when i was introduced to calvanist view I ate it up like a kid does chocolate chip cookies. And later i found out when i had sinned and sinned and sinned that God wasnt going to put up with it.
now allow me to give you history on me. I never said any salvation prayer. I never sought God. I was apprehended of God in jail. on my head i have the devils star tattooed, and elsewhere on my body i have 666 and other symbols that represent every fallen angel. before i read it in the bible, when asked my name by a stranger i would reply, I am legion for we are many. I was not kidding. I played with fire, the kind of fire God calls in the bible "a strange fire to him" I know what it means to be converted. very well. and I also know very well what it means to go from being converted to...being as a dog returning to its vomit. (pro 26:11)
the answer to your question what sins would cause us to loose our salvation? is not specific sin, but the continuing on in the sin. allowing it to control your life. before God quit talking to me before i had backslidden completly this is the scripture he gave me: jeremiah 15:6
Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting. God is patient but at some point he will let you know enough is enough. What i speak on brings shame to one and thats why i speak on it, to be a warning against making the same mistake i did.

 

[eddieb]

To the contrary, there is no "if" here in this verse, Christ is encouraging the believers, that having endured to the end (of their lives, or persecution), they will surely (shall) be saved.
Christ is not making a conditional law or command, that one will face God's wrath and judgement should they not be able to endure persecution. Such an interpretation is not in keeping with the heart of the (kind, merciful and compassionate) Savior nor the context and purpose of the passage. I suppose a religious mind will often interpret verses of scripture as black and white, right and wrong, religious duties, laws or commands to be obeyed, with consequences, rather than gaining the true meaning of the passage. That's what happens when the Bible is thought of as a book of rules, principles and instructions to live by, rather than a book of life.
The wrong assumption is that "saved" here refers to salvation from God's judgement. The wrong implication is that salvation from God's judgement is by our endurance rather than Christ's blood. However I believe the context of Matt 24:13, and reading together with Matt 10:21-23, is to be saved from the end-time persecution on the earth, and "enduring unto the end" refers to enduring the period of persecution, even unto death if necessary, after which they shall be saved.

you say the bible is not Gods instructions to live by? Seriously? lets examine your words futher. you say The Book is a book of life, and yet it is NOT principals and instructions to live by????? and i ask you what is life if not for the living? you clearly dont know what the bible speaks on as well as what you speak on so please before you accuse me of having a religious mind/spirit please get a better grasp on the dialoge you use before attempting to rail me. It isnt appreciated.

 

[james1523]

you say the bible is not Gods instructions to live by? Seriously? lets examine your words futher. you say The Book is a book of life, and yet it is NOT principals and instructions to live by????? and i ask you what is life if not for the living? you clearly dont know what the bible speaks on as well as what you speak on so please before you accuse me of having a religious mind/spirit please get a better grasp on the dialoge you use before attempting to rail me. It isnt appreciated.

Regardless of this side topic about uses of the Bible, my point still stands: the context of the passage about endurance, is an encouragement to believers that they will be saved at the end (of death, martyrdom, persecution). Christ is not making a law or condition that a person must endure to be saved. This would make salvation conditional upon our endurance, and not conditional upon our faith in Christ.

 

[james1523]

So when a person is saved, but willfully practices sin and does not repent,

You are talking about a person who appears saved but clearly is not. The Bible says a truly saved person does not wilfully practice sin: 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

If a person does practice sin, and does not repent, they are not born of God to begin with. Judas Iscariot was one of those people. He followed Christ yet he did not belong to Christ. He sinned and was lost. Peter on the other hand, also sinned greatly by denying Christ, yet was restored, and kept saved, because Peter truly belonged to Christ.

Even outwardly good, genuine people in our churches, do follow after the shadow rather than the substance. So when they fall away, it appears that saved people are become unsaved. Yet many of these people may not be genuinely born of God to begin with.