The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[RJ]

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised the Messiah from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.

No, I did not ignore any of your references, they were well organized and usefull in your explanation process.
I just ask that you abide in my explanation also.

To be absent in the body is to be in the presence of the lord. In the verse above, your salvation was not at the cross. Your forgivness was at the cross and your salvation was sealed when God, soon after, placed you in the body of Christ and put his Holy Spirit in you. Yes you were saved by your faith but, your faith comes from God and is his free gift to you and not of your doing (Ephesians 2:8). Yes your are to trust, surrender, bear fruit, stay faithful, endure to the end but it is not a requirement of you. You do it because you are complelled to do these things because He is in you encouraging you onward. And like Paul in Romans 7; when you mess up and you will, God took care of that at the cross and Christ's blood washes you still!

 

[eddieb]

To sin deliberately is not the believer, not someone who has been placed in the body of Christ. Sinning deliberately is not "falling away", because you can't fall away from a place you have never been!

look more closely at the scripture:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

notice the word after? after what??? willfully sin after the knowledge of the truth, which is knowing something one is doing is sin. this can only come from Gods light, which is from having a relationship with God. this means someone has already accepted Jesus in their heart and THEN he tells you this is sin.
the next part of importance here is the word willfully. it basicly means unchecked. it means you wont stop doing it. it means you dont feel remorse and you dont care what God told you about it, you will keep on doing it anyway.
and now the last part there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. There is only one sacrifice for our sins and that is what Jesus did at the cross. I mean seriously if you are going to disrespect Jesus by willfully doing what he told you isnt right how can one expect anything diffrent than the last part of this scripture.

someone who hasnt recieved the knowledge of the truth is not saved, but thats not what the above scripture says. it says after. clearly this is someone who has already been saved. proverbs 1:7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[RJ]

I agree with everything you say, except who is Paul talking to and talking about.

• He is talking to believers in the church about pretenders (pretenders were never saved in the first place).
• These pretenders had infiltrated the chruch from the Temple ( it was still very active at this time) only to lie about their salvation and to work at pushing believers back to the Temple for sacrifices in order to be truly saved.
• Paul was essentially telling the believer that these spies cant "fall away" from where they have never been. Paul was also saying that you can not go in and out of salvation, recieve God's forgivess and Holy Spirit, only to repent and be saved again. Jesus died once and for all!
• If you could possibly be a "true" believer and then "fall away" to being un-saved, then there would be no more sacrifices for you, Jesus wasn't coming back , die on the cross and be resurrected again.
• Judas was another example of a false Christian, he was a lier and a theif from the begining, pretending to be a Christian but he never did change he never was. Judas wouln't have "fallen away", he was never a believer in the first place.
• A believer does not fall away to unbelief, it is not possible.

 

[eddieb]

I believe they are judged for rewards, not salvation. Matt 16:27 is for rewards, not salvation: This is proven by Rev 22:12 which says "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. Other supporting scriptures are 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 14:10, 1 Cor. 4:5

I think we are judged for what we do good or bad and we get rewards from it either way, good or bad. reading your post made me think about this rewards verse:

rev 18:4-6
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

I always have liked the above scripture because it shows God will do justice.

 

[eddieb]

I agree with everything you say, except who is Paul talking to and talking about.

• He is talking to believers in the church about pretenders (pretenders were never saved in the first place).
• These pretenders had infiltrated the chruch from the Temple ( it was still very active at this time) only to lie about their salvation and to work at pushing believers back to the Temple for sacrifices in order to be truly saved.
• Paul was essentially telling the believer that these spies cant "fall away" from where they have never been. Paul was also saying that you can not go in and out of salvation, recieve God's forgivess and Holy Spirit, only to repent and be saved again. Jesus died once and for all!
• If you could possibly be a "true" believer and then "fall away" to being un-saved, then there would be no more sacrifices for you, Jesus wasn't coming back , die on the cross and be resurrected again.
• Judas was another example of a false Christian, he was a lier and a theif from the begining, pretending to be a Christian but he never did change he never was. Judas wouln't have "fallen away", he was never a believer in the first place.
• A believer does not fall away to unbelief, it is not possible.

please provide scripture to back up your claim he is talking about pretenders. because i dont see that.
what I do see about the book of hebrews is this....
it was written before the destruction of the temple 70 a.d. 10:11; 13:11. the only evidence concerning the site of the books writing is a greeting in 13:24 "they of italy" this dosent however say either way, the author was either in rome or writing to christians in rome.
most early christians were jewish. and apparently they expected christ to return soon. but the delay caused them to consider if they made the right choice (10:32-34). they may have been in danger of returning to judiasim. this epistle was written to waivering jewish believers to stand fast in the faith.
here is a break down of the book of hebrews:
1:1-3 superiority of christ over the prophets
1:4-14 Christ is superior because He is deity
2:1-4 first warning, warning of neglect
2:5-18 Christ is superior due to his humanity/who he is
3:1-4 Christ superior to moses in His work.
3:5-6Christ superior to Christ in his person
3:7-19 Danger of unbelief
4:1-13 Challenge to enter into Gods rest
4:14-16 Christ is superior in his position
5:1-4 Aaronic priesthood
5:5-10 melchisedecian preisthood
5:11-14 dullness of hearing
6:1-8 Need for maturity
6:9-20 Exhortation to maturity
7:1-3 description of Melchisedec
7:4-10 superiority of melchisedec
7:11-28 imperfection of aarionic priesthood
8:1-6 a better covenant
8:7-13 a new covenant
9:1-5 old covenants sanctuary
9:6-10 Old covenants sacrifice
9:11 new covenants sanctuary
9:12- 10:18 New covenants sacrifice
10:19-25 Hold fast the proffession of faith
10:26-39 Danger of drawing back
11:1-40 faith
12:1-4 Christs endurance
12:5-24 exhortation to endure Gods chastening
12:25-29 warning about refusing God
13:1-6 Love is social realm
13:7-17 love in spiritual realm
13:18-25 conclusion and salutations.

where exactly does it talk about pretenders for a good portion of this epistle? I dont see that. what I do see tho is after accepting Jesus they continued to be zealous for temple rites and sacrifices. this epistle was written to explain to them that animal sacrifices, to which they where very attached to, were no longer of any use. and that they were to be an age-long picture of the coming sacrifice of christ. but I cant find any refrence that the book or even the tenth chapter which contains the verse i previously quoted was aimed at the topic of pretenders. please back up your claim with scripture.

 

[RJ]

O.K., you want find the word pretenders, let's just call it a non-believer who proclaims to be a believer, it is an attempt on my part as a commentary. Commentaries by nature are an explanation of certain facts of the time. Not everything that happened to all the people in the Bible is written down, just like Jesus in John 21:25, ( I am parahrasing) If everything that Jesus did was writteh down , even the Bible coldn't contain it!

Not all true Biblical thoughts or ideas are written exactly like the different ways it can be explained but it doesn't mean they are wrong. When I first started studying the scriptures after my salvation, Hebrews 6: 4-6 really disturbed me and challenged my feelings of eternal security.

From my studies and many Bible comentaries later, I was assured I couldn't loose my salvation or "fall away". You have to judge such things for yourself.

I feel that the believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5). If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

 

[eddieb]

O.K., you want find the word pretenders, let's just call it a non-believer who proclaims to be a believer, it is an attempt on my part as a commentary. Commentaries by nature are an explanation of certain facts of the time. Not everything that happened to all the people in the Bible is written down, just like Jesus in John 21:25, ( I am parahrasing) If everything that Jesus did was writteh down , even the Bible coldn't contain it!

Not all true Biblical thoughts or ideas are written exactly like the different ways it can be explained but it doesn't mean they are wrong. When I first started studying the scriptures after my salvation, Hebrews 6: 4-6 really disturbed me and challenged my feelings of eternal security.

From my studies and many Bible comentaries later, I was assured I couldn't loose my salvation or "fall away". You have to judge such things for yourself.

I feel that the believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5). If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.

I agree the word pretender is one who is not legit. I wasnt specificly asking to find the word pretender in scripture but evidence of you claim that whomever, many say hebrews was written by paul but it is not for certian could be barnabas or apollos, but anyway a scripture that would allow one to conclude thats what hebrews was addressing (pretenders). I am not saying you are wrong, just that I dont see it anywhere as my outline of hebrews in a previous post genericly outlined. The reason I ask for you to provide scriptual evidence is, not only is that a forum rule, but I have also refered to several commentaries as well as historical refrences, which in my earlier post was backed up with scripture, and I didnt find one instance of refrence to pretenders. perhaps I overlooked it. I am curious as to what commentary you refrenced and what scripture your commentary uses to back up the claim the hebrew epistle was about pretenders.
as for you scripture on plucking a christian out of Gods hand, it is correct. No external force can steal away your salvation.
Please provide a refrence backing up your claim to the book of hebrews being about pretenders. again, not looking for the actual word pretender, just scripture to back up your claim. If it is in there I would very much like to know about it.
for grins and giggles i went ahead and looked it up in my strongs. it goes from pretence to prevail, so the actual word pretender dosent appear at least in the KJV. but still perhaps you can show me where a refrence to it is located in hebrews? I would appreciate it.


hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

this scripture had troubled me too for a long time. I havent ever studied it in the greek. Perhaps there is something lost in translation, I dont know. But it does say the words "fallen away" in it. I can say personally I fell away and God forgave me. maybe it speaks in a sence that they dont want to repent. i will research this passage more.

 

[RJ]

Eddieb,

Everything is right in the scripture:
hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I don't know how to explain it more.
Let's say that Paul, Barnabas or who ever was talking about believers ( lets just forget pretenders), the outcome would be the same though.
Again, don't confuse pulling away ( or perhaps feeling seperate) to be confused with "falling away" in this verse, which "falling away" here means going from a believer to a non-believer.
Again: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand”
The writer of Hebrews 6: 4-6, knew this as well. In Hebrews 10:26. this concept of 6:4-6 is re-emphasized: in 10:26, "falling away" is explained again as "deliberately sinning". If you're a saved believer, and no matter how bad you may feel, or how far you have run from God, you are not deliberately sinning. If you do, it would mean that you reject the Holy Spirit and are sinning with no remorse or caring about the consequences for doing so.
If you deliberately sin, you were never saved in the first place. Remember no one is able to snatch you out of God's hand, not even yourself!

 

[james1523]

The elect (God's chosen) are saved no matter what they do (Peter, for example, who denied Christ 3 times, yet was still saved). The non-elect (God's not chosen), are not saved, no matter how hard they try (Judas Iscariot, for example, who betrayed Christ, yet was no opportunity for forgiveness).

 

[eddieb]

Eddieb,

Everything is right in the scripture:
hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I don't know how to explain it more.
Let's say that Paul, Barnabas or who ever was talking about believers ( lets just forget pretenders), the outcome would be the same though.
Again, don't confuse pulling away ( or perhaps feeling seperate) to be confused with "falling away" in this verse, which "falling away" here means going from a believer to a non-believer.
Again: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand”
The writer of Hebrews 6: 4-6, knew this as well. In Hebrews 10:26. this concept of 6:4-6 is re-emphasized: in 10:26, "falling away" is explained again as "deliberately sinning". If you're a saved believer, and no matter how bad you may feel, or how far you have run from God, you are not deliberately sinning. If you do, it would mean that you reject the Holy Spirit and are sinning with no remorse or caring about the consequences for doing so.
If you deliberately sin, you were never saved in the first place. Remember no one is able to snatch you out of God's hand, not even yourself!

so you cant provide a single refrence to pretenders in hebrews? I didnt think you would be able to. (because it isnt in there)

as far as what you are saying to if you dileberatly sinning you was never saved in the first place, that directly contridicts scripture, even scripture you have posted in this thread, as well as what I have experienced in my own dealings with God. (with me there was and i was definitly saved before i turned seeing as how thru me God interpreted dreams, and i spoke in tounges and even got interpretations, he would give me the words to say to someone who then prayed and recieved Christ, much scriptural knowledge was given, many dreams, and on and on.)
as I said in a previous post i would do some research on heb 6-4-6. I have refrenced several study guides, bible handbooks, and commentaries. it is speaking of apostasy. now I also consulted several dictionaries to find the definition of the word apostasy. it is defined as formal disaffiliation, form of abandonment, or renunciation(or to renounce) of a religion of a person. Now in this definition it says a form of abandonment. this IS simply turning from God and willfully sinning as it talks about in heb 10:26. And as far as what you say about not even us can snatch ourselfs out of Gods hand, I have seen many many former christians turned athiest on some form of TV programing and even on youtube videos. Go to the website for the freedom from religion foundation and you can find a link to "de-baptisim" where you denounce belief in and reject getting sprinkled or dunked with water. (i call it getting dunked) This IS happening in the world today. Now having said that, I want to say there is only one unpardonable sin, which is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. If you havent done that repentance is possible. a good example of this is king david in psalm 51 he said Lord take not thy Holy Spirit from me. now David was guilty of adultery and was responsible for an innocent mans life. But he WAS of a repentive heart.
what I am saying is as long as the apostasy is partial there may be hope. However when it becomes TOTAL(and we are free will beings who can choose) , recovery may be impossible, and these scriptures say this.
The sin here spoken of may be similar to the unpardonable sin(matt12:31-32 & mark 3:28-30 where implication is attributing miricles of Jesus to satan, and which in luke 12:9-10 is connected thru the denial of Jesus. That would be the sin of one outside the church, but the sin we are reffering to is the fall of a christian(since there are no actual verses in hebrews about pretenders). the essence of the fatal sin wether inside or outside of the church is the deliberate and Final rejection of Christ. (matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.)
the implication is of someone trapped down in a well and a rope is thrown down but the person cuts the rope above their reach thus cutting of thier only hope of escape.

 

[RJ]

I said that the use of the word pretender(s) was my comentary about ceratin non-beleivers and not in the Bible pre se; we should be able to let go of that!

• You should atleast agree that a person who says they believe and are a Christian but in fact, they do not beleive, a fare word to decribe their action is that they are pretending.
• You can look at all my threads about Hebrews 6: 4-6 ( at least 4 years worth). I have my interpretation of that and you have yours, let's just agree to disagree.

 

[eddieb]

I said that the use of the word pretender(s) was my comentary about ceratin non-beleivers and not in the Bible pre se; we should be able to let go of that!

• You should atleast agree that a person who says they believe and are a Christian but in fact, they do not beleive, a fare word to decribe their action is that they are pretending.
• You can look at all my threads about Hebrews 6: 4-6 ( at least 4 years worth). I have my interpretation of that and you have yours, let's just agree to disagree.

I agree what a pretender is. I agree we disagree and thats fine because i know Gods word says it will not return void, whomevers point is correct either way weather you are right or I am right, seeds have been planted.. But that still dont mean you should buck the rules of this forum. you have to provide scripture to your claim. you are in violation. If your commentary says it then re look it up. I mean you should want to provide that to prove your point. I have provided scripture for my claim. the rule is there to keep people from making bogus claims. and that is why I am pressing it so. God honors His word, and so should we.

edit: can your commentary not provide scripture to back up the claim either?

 

[RJ]

Look, let's please get this straight, I never once, not once said pretender was a quote out of scripture. I have explained the use of that term exhaustively.

• This dicussion is a part of the Bible Hall Study thread: The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation and I have listed substantial scrpiture to support my thoughts on this thread.
• If you think I have violated a rule, you have every right to report me to a Moderator for possible penalty.

 

[eddieb]

Look, let's please get this straight, I never once, not once said pretender was a quote out of scripture. I have explained the use of that term exhaustively.

• This dicussion is a part of the Bible Hall Study thread: The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation and I have listed substantial scrpiture to support my thoughts on this thread.
• If you think I have violated a rule, you have every right to report me to a Moderator for possible penalty.

No you didnt ever say the word pretender was in scripture, But you did say it was a letter to believers warning against pretenders and you said this to disprove what I said. I have no confusion in that you said that the word pretender is not a direct quote from scripture. IN fact in a past post of mine i showed that i looked up the word pretender and said the actual word does not appear in scripture anywhere. I said this to eliminate any confusion. I know the word isnt there before you ever wrote it in this thread. However this is not the issue. This is not what I am asking. I am only asking for you to provide any scripture from the book of hebrews that backs up your claim. i.e. that one can conclude thats what the letter was written about, which your claim was it was written to believers warning about pretenders. If thats what it is about then surely you can find one scripture that would imply your claim. again I already know the word "pretender isnt found in scripture. But if the book of hebrews implys what you claim then it should be easy for you to point that out. It should be easy for you to go to your commentary and quote whats in there that says its warning against pretenders. Or even just the name of your commentary, I will be happy to look it up for myself. I have even looked up in John Calvins commentary, and it is surprizing what he has to say about chapters 6&10 of hebrews compared to todays calvianist view. It is unfair of you to try to disprove what I said and then not back it up. Not only to me but for the sake of this being in the bible study hall, as you pointed out. I am not and have no intention of "reporting you" You should want to follow the rules without being persuaded. Please back up your claim.

 

[eddieb]

The elect (God's chosen) are saved no matter what they do (Peter, for example, who denied Christ 3 times, yet was still saved). The non-elect (God's not chosen), are not saved, no matter how hard they try (Judas Iscariot, for example, who betrayed Christ, yet was no opportunity for forgiveness).

That is a bold claim to say you know the heart of another man that lived 2000 some-odd years ago. Surely you have some sort of scripture to back this claim up. I have scripture that says otherwise tho.

Acts chapter one:

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples[c] (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. 19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;


and,
‘Let another take his office.’


21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”


notice how in verse 15 it says obtained part of this ministry. common sense says you cannot obtain ministry without obtaining the Spirit. to even futher illustrate this point it says in verse 20 let another take his office. This shows he had actually obtained an office of ministry. Even more evidence is found where it says in verse 23 Judas by transgression fell. Now once again its common sense that you cannot fall from something you have not obtained. and to be even more specific lets take a gander at the word transression in verse 23. the greek transliteration is the word parabaino (par-ab-ahee-no) it is a verb. Strong's # 3845 it is defined as abandoning a trust, stepping aside, rebellion or apostasy. whats even more interesting is one of the roots of this word means to walk or pace. in this instance walk away, as in, walk away from God. Judas abandoned his position amoung the twelve to go his own way.
this is evidence in scripture not just from the translations we have, but from the original language, in the original text of the original writing one can walk away from God. deep in the root of the words.

 

[RJ]

No you didnt ever say the word pretender was in scripture, But you did say it was a letter to believers warning against pretenders and you said this to disprove what I said. I have no confusion in that you said that the word pretender is not a direct quote from scripture. IN fact in a past post of mine i showed that i looked up the word pretender and said the actual word does not appear in scripture anywhere. I said this to eliminate any confusion. I know the word isnt there before you ever wrote it in this thread. However this is not the issue. This is not what I am asking. I am only asking for you to provide any scripture from the book of hebrews that backs up your claim. i.e. that one can conclude thats what the letter was written about, which your claim was it was written to believers warning about pretenders. If thats what it is about then surely you can find one scripture that would imply your claim. again I already know the word "pretender isnt found in scripture. But if the book of hebrews implys what you claim then it should be easy for you to point that out. It should be easy for you to go to your commentary and quote whats in there that says its warning against pretenders. Or even just the name of your commentary, I will be happy to look it up for myself. I have even looked up in John Calvins commentary, and it is surprizing what he has to say about chapters 6&10 of hebrews compared to todays calvianist view. It is unfair of you to try to disprove what I said and then not back it up. Not only to me but for the sake of this being in the bible study hall, as you pointed out. I am not and have no intention of "reporting you" You should want to follow the rules without being persuaded. Please back up your claim.

O.k., can we please stop using the word pretenders. And I have offered plenty of scripture. Let's start from here and lets call it a letter to believers about believers and non-believers. Lets do this a different way, let me quote some scripture that I have used on the subject before. Let's also agree that you can't not take scripture out of context, you have look at the over all big picture of salvation by grace and how a particular verse might apply.

First supportive verse:
1 Thesolonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast that which is good.

1. Take a verse and test it. Does it support the New Covenant that we live in and the alvation by grace that we live under?

Second supportive verse:
Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen
away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1. The writer of Hebrews was talking to believers, that un-like non-believers, that once saved, it was impossible for them to fall away to unbelief or not being saved.
2. If a believer could fall away and expect to later be able to be brought back into repentance, it couldn't happen because Christ wasn't going to come back and die on the cross and be humiliated again. In other words, if you are truly saved and you living in the body of Christ and He in you, then you are sealed having eternal security.
Third supportive verse
Ephesians 1: 13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

1. When saved your sealed with the Holy Spirit and God promise to never leave you and forsake you. You can not "fall away" from that!

Forth supportive verse(s)
John 10: 27-28 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand

1. No one, not even you can cause you to "fall away" to unbelief.

Again a believer can not fall away in the sense of Hebrew 6: 4-6. It also meant that a non-believer or a stated believer that was still a non-believer: could essentially not " fall away" either...for they can not fall away from a place they had never been.
I have studied this "falling away" and tested it by what I believe and know my proof is that God's perfect salvation by grace will not allow a born again Christian to revert back to a non-believer.
Again, you can still report me but I see no rule that I have broken. I am also respectively done with this conversation about pretenders

 

[eddieb]

I agree with everything you say, except who is Paul talking to and talking about.

• He is talking to believers in the church about pretenders (pretenders were never saved in the first place).
  
• These pretenders had infiltrated the chruch from the Temple ( it was still very active at this time) only to lie about their salvation and to work at pushing believers back to the Temple for sacrifices in order to be truly saved.
• Paul was essentially telling the believer that these spies cant "fall away" from where they have never been. Paul was also saying that you can not go in and out of salvation, recieve God's forgivess and Holy Spirit, only to repent and be saved again. Jesus died once and for all!
• If you could possibly be a "true" believer and then "fall away" to being un-saved, then there would be no more sacrifices for you, Jesus wasn't coming back , die on the cross and be resurrected again.
• Judas was another example of a false Christian, he was a lier and a theif from the begining, pretending to be a Christian but he never did change he never was. Judas wouln't have "fallen away", he was never a believer in the first place.
• A believer does not fall away to unbelief, it is not possible.

above is your claim. we have already agreed that we disagree. i do not want to and will not futher debate doctornal view with you until you either back up your claim with scripture or admit you made it up and you wont be able to back it up. those are the only two possibilities there are. If you are going to try to disprove me be ready to back it up. as far as the truth I am in it to win it. If you had put as much effort into backing up your claim as you have into avoiding the backing up your of claim this would have been over with already.

and as far as what you said about judas check out my next to last post in this thread on what i said a about Judas. or rather what the bible says about it.

now quit trying to dodge and squirm and either back up your claim or just dont reply to me about this anymore because frankly, its already gotten old.

 

[RJ]

above is your claim. we have already agreed that we disagree. i do not want to and will not futher debate doctornal view with you until you either back up your claim with scripture or admit you made it up and you wont be able to back it up. those are the only two possibilities there are. If you are going to try to disprove me be ready to back it up. as far as the truth I am in it to win it. If you had put as much effort into backing up your claim as you have into avoiding the backing up your of claim this would have been over with already.

and as far as what you said about judas check out my next to last post in this thread on what i said a about Judas. or rather what the bible says about it.

now quit trying to dodge and squirm and either back up your claim or just dont reply to me about this anymore because frankly, its already gotten old.

I have respectfully just backed up my claim with ample verse to that one can't fall away, no matter it be a believer, a non-believer or a person who pretends to be a believer but is not; the outcome is still the same. I have nothing here to win because I have won salvation. Maybe you have an agenda but, finally we find something to agree to, it has gotten old!

 

[farout]

I have respectfully just backed up my claim with ample verse to that one can't fall away, no matter it be a believer, a non-believer or a person who pretends to be a believer but is not; the outcome is still the same. I have nothing here to win because I have won salvation. Maybe you have an agenda but, finally we find something to agree to, it has gotten old!

Born Again: me too! Bless your heart, sometimes I feel alone in trying to say The Most Dangerous Doctrine is Believing God can't keep you in His eternal protection of your salvation ! That's Jesus' promise in John 10. Jesus don't lie.....ever!!!!!!!

 

[RJ]

Born Again: me too! Bless your heart, sometimes I feel alone in trying to say The Most Dangerous Doctrine is Believing God can't keep you in His eternal protection of your salvation ! That's Jesus' promise in John 10. Jesus don't lie.....ever!!!!!!!

I don't know why it is so hard for some to understand. I know that most are saved but what guilt and bondage they can live under, which, in its self is a sin.
I can appreciate and accept their belief but, I personally, thank God for what I know. For those who feel that God's grace is not sufficient and perfect, I pray for.