The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[Last Things]

Good stuff, thanks for clarifying. The person who believes they can't lose salvation but keeps on sinning, and the person who believes they can lose salvation but strives to be saved by their own works, are both living in the same way - out of their self.

But you are ignoring the fact that there are people who believe they can lose their salvation but strives to maintain in through living the Christian faith, as opposed to sinning. I wonder why people are so insistent about this issue who believe you can't lose it. If they are right, then the issue is mute. We are saved no matter what and there is no point in talking about it.

I wonder if this pertains to a level of salvific insecurity. Without a doubt, there are people that believe they might not be good enough for salvation, so instead of fearing it, they simply think they'll never lose it.

 

[james1523]

But you are ignoring the fact that there are people who believe they can lose their salvation but strives to maintain in through living the Christian faith, as opposed to sinning. I wonder why people are so insistent about this issue who believe you can't lose it. If they are right, then the issue is mute. We are saved no matter what and there is no point in talking about it.

I wonder if this pertains to a level of salvific insecurity. Without a doubt, there are people that believe they might not be good enough for salvation, so instead of fearing it, they simply think they'll never lose it.

Both the sinning and the striving and any insecurities come from the same source - the self. This is the self which must die so that we can experience life and bear fruit. The problem is people attempt to address the sin or the insecurities, instead of dying to these things and then living to Christ. Once we die to self and are then resurrected (spiritually speaking), all these problems disappear.

 

[RJ]

This is good stuff!
Too many, I believe, are saved but don't understand what they have in God's grace. He said it is a "gift" and being a gift it is free! True hope is undertanding that God gives the believer "Eternal Security" and you have actually already been resurrected!

 

[B-A-C]

A common misconception is that it is God's faith that saves us. This is totally opposite of what the Bible teaches. Think about it, God has enough faith for everyone, but yet we know everyone isn't going to be saved.
Verses used here are commonly

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We see grace, we see salvation (saved), and we see faith. Some people take it that all three come from God. Yes, the grace and salvation come from God.
But is it God's faith also? About 40 times in the New testament we see that God works and moves in peoples lives according to their faith (not His). Here are a few examples.

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

In the verse above, was it God's faith that was too small? Or the disciples?

Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Our faith is what saves us.

Luke 8:25; And He said to them, "Where is your faith?" They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, "Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?"
Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."
Luke 22:32; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

In fact in Matthew 8 we see the story of the centurion with the paralyzed servant. Jesus told the man he would come to his house, but the centurion told Jesus he knew he had power to heal him from where he was.

Mat 8:10; Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.

Jesus marveled, some Bibles say Jesus was astonished. Now why would Jesus be astonished to know how much faith the man had if it came from him?

In Matt 9 Jesus asked another some men if they believed Jesus could do something.

Matt 9:28; When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus *said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They *said to Him, "Yes, Lord."

I'm sure Jesus already believed He could do it, so why did he ask them if they believed He could do it?

In Luke 8, we see some people "believed for a while".

Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Davy]

You are talking about a person who appears saved but clearly is not. The Bible says a truly saved person does not wilfully practice sin: 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

If a person does practice sin, and does not repent, they are not born of God to begin with. Judas Iscariot was one of those people. He followed Christ yet he did not belong to Christ. He sinned and was lost. Peter on the other hand, also sinned greatly by denying Christ, yet was restored, and kept saved, because Peter truly belonged to Christ.

Even outwardly good, genuine people in our churches, do follow after the shadow rather than the substance. So when they fall away, it appears that saved people are become unsaved. Yet many of these people may not be genuinely born of God to begin with.

Hi James1523. So you believe once a person is truly saved, then they can do nothing that will bar them from salvation. Then you quoted 1 John 3:9, (ESV): "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

The ESV is essentially a literal translation, or a word for word translation, this may sound very good, but sometimes the meaning of a verse can be corrupted by this approach. However a number of authoritive bibles use a thought for thought approach in order to catch the full meaning of what the original Greek language is saying. Notice how a number of other bibles render this verse, after considering the full context of meaning or intention of the Greek words.

Please note how the NLT renders this verse: "Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God."

The AMP renders this verse as: "No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God."

The Darby version says: "Whoever has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God."
The NASB says: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

The New Century Version states: "Those who are God’s children do not continue sinning, because the new life from God remains in them. They are not able to go on sinning, because they have become children of God."

The New Living Translation adds: "Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God."

The Living Bible says: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning because now God's life is in him; so he can't keep on sinning, for this new life has been born into him and controls him--he has been born again."

Notice the use of the word practice sinning and can't keep on sinning! There is a difference between practicing sin and some one who only periodically sins. Everyone commits sins periodically, but that is not the same as willfully practicing a sin. A saved person who is born in sin, will commit sins, but will not practice them. That is why Jesus died, so that our sins can, which we periodically commit, will be forgiven.

Furthermore, Matthew 16:27, (NLT) says: "For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds." Why would a baptized saved Christian need to be judged by Jesus, if they are once saved always saved? This to me clearly shows Christians are not once saved always saved!

 

[B-A-C]

This to me clearly shows Christians are not once saved always saved!

Indeed,
This entire thread makes little sense to me. If we cannot lose our salvation no matter what, then what is the danger?
The opening article gives reasons such as it leads to works... Well remember, we aren't saved BY works. We are saved to DO works.
There is nothing wrong with works after you are saved, in fact fruit is proof you are saved.

But even so, if I cannot lose my salvation, what difference does it make? This is illogical, if I can not lose my salvation, then why is any teaching (after I'm saved) dangerous at all?

 

[Glow]

Indeed,
This entire thread makes little sense to me. If we cannot lose our salvation no matter what, then what is the danger?
The opening article gives reasons such as it leads to works... Well remember, we aren't saved BY works. We are saved to DO works.
There is nothing wrong with works after you are saved, in fact fruit is proof you are saved.

But even so, if I cannot lose my salvation, what difference does it make? This is illogical, if I can not lose my salvation, then why is any teaching (after I'm saved) dangerous at all?

The problem comes from when well-meaning Christians who are saved think they can lose their salvation, and try to live their lives in a way that revolves around their own willpower and effort rather than resting in God alone. Although this thread was also to help unbelievers to realize that it doesn't take works to be saved (since some may take "losing salvation" and think it takes works to be saved as well), it's also to help true Christians to be freed from a works-based way of thinking, so that they can serve God with joy in the truth that they are saved. We were saved for good works, and when we are in bondage to works by thinking we have to "strive" for our salvation, there is no liberty to love God and want to serve Him. We are so busy being anxious, trying to be good people, trying on our own effort, when God is trying to get us to put our faith in Him and trust Him, not ourselves.

Also, our faith doesn't come from ourselves (in reference to your previous post), because we are all dead in our trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), and sinful creatures by nature. If we could force ourselves to have faith by our own willpower, then it wouldn't be of grace, but of works. We can't "conjure up" faith. We can't "force" faith. The bible makes it clear in Ephesians 2:8-9 that faith is a gift of God, and not from ourselves.

God wants us to rely on Him, to trust in Him. If we could make ourselves have faith, we would be in heaven boasting about how great our faith was; but in reality, God is the great gift giver of faith.

 

[RJ]

I am sorry but this is quite lenghty:
CAN YOU LOOSE YOUR SALVATION?
This question often comes up in discussions among Christians and there is a healthy debate on whether or not it is possible to lose your salvation. The question and the answer are important because they can affect your relationship with God. For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can't be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.
The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).
There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4-6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27-28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38-39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.
It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one's salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB). I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.
Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.
Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God's grace to be saved.
Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can't occur because of anything you do.
Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.

 

[Glow]

Hi James1523. So you believe once a person is truly saved, then they can do nothing that will bar them from salvation. Then you quoted 1 John 3:9, (ESV): "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."
The ESV is essentially a literal translation, or a word for word translation, this may sound very good, but sometimes the meaning of a verse can be corrupted by this approach. However a number of authoritive bibles use a thought for thought approach in order to catch the full meaning of what the original Greek language is saying. Notice how a number of other bibles render this verse, after considering the full context of meaning or intention of the Greek words.

Please note how the NLT renders this verse: "Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God."
The AMP renders this verse as: "No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God."
The Darby version says: "Whoever has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because his seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God."
The NASB says: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
The New Century Version states: "Those who are God’s children do not continue sinning, because the new life from God remains in them. They are not able to go on sinning, because they have become children of God."
The New Living Translation adds: "Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God."
The Living Bible says: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning because now God's life is in him; so he can't keep on sinning, for this new life has been born into him and controls him--he has been born again."

Notice the use of the word practice sinning and can't keep on sinning! There is a difference between practicing sin and some one who only periodically sins. Everyone commits sins periodically, but that is not the same as willfully practicing a sin. A saved person who is born in sin, will commit sins, but will not practice them. That is why Jesus died, so that our sins can, which we periodically commit, will be forgiven.
Furthermore, Matthew 16:27, (NLT) says: "For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds." Why would a baptized saved Christian need to be judged by Jesus, if they are once saved always saved? This to me clearly shows Christians are not once saved always saved!

The reason Jesus will judge us for our deeds is for levels of reward. You forget the scripture that says:

"...But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

Also, in reference to what you said about "practicing sinning" and "periodically sinning,"; we have all fallen short of the glory of God, and have no way of getting back to Him on our own effort. A truly saved person will walk in the light, according to the entire book of 1 John, which he wrote to assure Christians that they have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

Jesus wipes away our sins forever. It was finished at the cross. Sin is sin, and whether one periodically sins or sins deliberately, all who refuse to repent and turn to Jesus to receive eternal life have the wrath of God abiding on them. Those who are His can never be snatched out of His hand. Here are some more scriptures that I believe will help you:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” (John 6:39-40)

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28)

 

[RJ]

Please, one additional thing:

Jesus told Nicodemus that " You must be born again!". This is not a play on words, it is the simple truth: If being saved means being "born again", how can you be un-born? You can not be un-born from your mother and you can not be un-born from God's Spirit!

 

[eddieb]

hebrews 10:26- 30

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Is verse 26 is in agreement to once saved always saved???

 

[farout]

hebrews 10:26- 30

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Is verse 26 is in agreement to once saved always saved???

1 John 1:8,9.10. Are you saying your sinless? No one needs to hold on to their position to the point of lacking respect for those who don't agree. This has long been debated and is a "in house debate". No matter which side you stand with, the Holy Spirit is in genuine born again believers, it is He who speaks to our heart to tell us we are not in fellowship with the Godhead.

No one is going to change anyone's mind if they have been taught either way. That's the Holy Spirit' function to instruct and correct us. No one is without sin, until we are transformed when we enter the home Jesus Christ has prepared for us.

 

[RJ]

• Does the true believer have Eternal Security?...absolutely!
• Does he feel that he can just willfully sin? Never!
• Is he now sinless? Nope, not until he he dies and is perfected in the presence of God. ( see what St. Paul said about his sin in Romans 7)
• If you are "Saved", "Born Again", then there is nothing in scriptures that says anything about being "Un-born"! To be so, is to say that God's New Covenent is not sufficient and perfect.

 

[eddieb]

1 John 1:8,9.10. Are you saying your sinless? No one needs to hold on to their position to the point of lacking respect for those who don't agree. This has long been debated and is a "in house debate". No matter which side you stand with, the Holy Spirit is in genuine born again believers, it is He who speaks to our heart to tell us we are not in fellowship with the Godhead.

No one is going to change anyone's mind if they have been taught either way. That's the Holy Spirit' function to instruct and correct us. No one is without sin, until we are transformed when we enter the home Jesus Christ has prepared for us.

am I saying i am sinless? obviously you didnt read all my posts on this thread. if you had you would not be able to even ask that.
i wasnt disrespecting anyone, unless you call quoting verses disrespectful. trying to tell something I have experienced.
as far as changing minds, all i was doing is trying to show people what the word of God says and experiences i have had in my walk. nothing i have said has been disproven by anyone here with scripture to back up what they say. not once. instead any debate my way is ignored because there is nothing one can say to refute the scripture i provided.(avoidance) i have provided many scriptures thru this thread that say clearly once saved always saved is not biblical. and no one can say i have mis-interpreted or mis quoted or said out of context. instead they say i am religious minded or hint hint on that i am saying i am sinless. I wasnt really planning on posting here because i see now it is a fruitless exercise but since you quoted me i will yet once more provide another scripture that says exactly what every one of my posts in this thread has said. However, whats unique about this scripture choice is what you said above about being in fellowship with God and the God head and the Holy Spirit, well, its in this passage as well as what i am saying.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.


what i am saying i do say out of love. just as the above quoted words when Jesus spoke them were out of love.
I guess it is easier to say I am saying I am sinless when you dont have any other way to argue with what i have presented. I will not appologize if the Word of God offends you, but to offend anyone was never my goal. This will be my last post in this thread, not because i am out of material to prove my point, but because I am just spinning my wheels. but i do have one last thing. If you so zealously believe in once saved always saved, please use some of that zeal to ask God for the truth on what i am saying. I mean, if you will argue it so here why would you not pray about it? I mean what if I am right? and you teach once saved always saved to a new born and they start to live in unrepented sin due to your message? thinking, its ok Gods grace has got me. no worries. this is why i am so zealeous about it, because i WAS that newborn. the message OSAS in itself is a stumbling block.

 

[james1523]

Furthermore, Matthew 16:27, (NLT) says: "For the Son of Man will come with his angels in the glory of his Father and will judge all people according to their deeds." Why would a baptized saved Christian need to be judged by Jesus, if they are once saved always saved? This to me clearly shows Christians are not once saved always saved!

I believe they are judged for rewards, not salvation. Matt 16:27 is for rewards, not salvation: This is proven by Rev 22:12 which says "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. Other supporting scriptures are 2 Cor 5:10, Rom 14:10, 1 Cor. 4:5

 

[farout]

After thinking about this threads title, the real dangerous issue is...NOT BEING A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST !!!!!!.....

 

[RJ]

I made a typing mistake.......Of course, I meant to say that the New Covenant IS sufficient and perfect...sorry to all!

 

[brakelite]

I agree with farout's last comment. The real danger is not maintaining ones relationship with His Savior. A Christian does not all of a sudden decide to take up a career in crime, or to take up a drug habit, or take up a relationship with another's spouse. These things do happen to true Christians, but they are the result of losing touch with Jesus. Though Jesus promises to not let us go, this is conditional, contingent on our keeping our faith and maintaining our side of the relationship. We Christians take much store in our evangelical efforts in stating, correctly, that a relationship with God essential for salvation, and it is a two way street, and praising God for that, showing potential believers how wonderful God is that He would desire to know us as friends and children. But we forget the two way street when confronted with the idea of backsliding. All of a sudden the one way street, (God toward us) is sufficient for salvation. It is not.
Someone mentioned before the fact that branches can be broken off. According to John 15 we can certainly fall off (or away).
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
And according to Paul in Romans 11 we see that if the newly grafted branch does not continue in the goodness (or grace) of God, he will be cut off! (See Romans 11:17-22)
Here is the issue. If a man abide not in Me.....Jesus is here stating that it is possible for those who are saved, (they are branches attached to the vine) to lose contact with Jesus. That by their poor judgment or poor choices they can neglect their relationship and cease to be a part of the vine. They fall away and are cast forth to be burned.
Jesus genius as a master craftsman of language is here evident in this analogy. While we remain dependent upon the vine as the source for our life and power (without Me ye can do nothing) we are safe. But the moment we become proud or self willed or begin to trust in our own wisdom, strength, or riches to sustain our lives we lose contact with the Lifegiver.
Jeremiah 9:23 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

A study in the life of Saul ought to be enough to bring understanding that a born again believer can and does lose his salvation.

And here is a number of scriptures all of which reflect the idea that salvation is conditional on the abiding relationship with Christ.
Hebrews 10:38; John 15:6; John 8:51; Romans 11:22; 2 Peter 1:10; Hebrews 3:14; 2 Tim. 2:12; Hebrews 10:26; 1 John 2:15; John 15:14; Romans 8:13.

 

[RJ]

"A study in the life of Saul ought to be enough to bring understanding that a born again believer can and does lose his salvation."

• With all due respect, and for me, I think the above statement is very incorrect.
• Hebrews 10:26, 26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. This is supportive of and an addition to Hebrews 6:4 and both taken out of context and usually wrong.

1. Early in my Bible reading, these types of passages really upset and worried me ( consequently, worry and upset are both sinfull).They upset me because I thought, how can God's New Covenant be perfect, God living in me and I fall away and lose my just found salvation?
2. I thought, am I truly saved? When I sin, or stray in doubt ( more sin) am I now un-saved and lost?

After much study and praying, I found the answer to the above questions were a resounding NO!

1. In the above Hebrew verses, St. Paul was not talking about believers, he was talking to believers.
2. He was talking to believers about Temple spies that had infiltrated their ranks, proclaiming to be Christians, only to try and coax believers back to the Temple for sacrifices. Paul was telling the true believers to stand fast and don't listen to these Spies. "Falling away" was impossible for the believer. If it were true (to fall away), then you would be unsaved and, to come back, it would require Christ to come back and die on the cross again, which wasn't going to happen. He was fineshed and sat down at the right hand of the Father!... I Peter 3:18 For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,
3. A key word in the above Hebrews 10:26 is "deliberately".

• To sin deliberately is not the believer, not someone who has been placed in the body of Christ. Sinning deliberately is not "falling away", because you can't fall away from a place you have never been!

 

[brakelite]

Please don't ignore all the other references I offered showing that salvation is conditional on our faithfulness.

And salvation wasn't something that was fully completed at the cross. No-one will be saved if Jesus wasn't applying the blood of the covenant within the sanctuary, applying the merits of His blood in our sanctification. Yes, I was saved by the sacrifice upon Calvary...but I am being saved by Jesus' ongoing ministry as my High Priest in heaven...and I will be saved when He returns and changes me from mortal to immortality at His second coming. Salvation is not a one off event...it is an ongoing process during which I am required to play my role...trust, surrender, bear fruit, stay faithful, endure to the end.