The gift of free will.

[PloughBoy]

May I say this to many, For many in this world are religious people but not the same kind of Creatures we are for we are few in number and our being is different from those of this world and our furnace is this world and GOD our Father who is not theirs but ours is shaping and molding us into The Image of HIS only begotten Son whom HE loves and it must be done by a certain kind of heat “Anthropomorphically called Fire. A natural human can not go through this but will cast off such a garment and will refused it like a unruly Ox.

 

[*Lavender]

I want to avoid any labels that attach themselves to the appearance of views, where they may appear to fit in part ,or may not fit in another way.

Such as detachment from Calvinism or Armenian. For a child of God belongs to Him, and how He describes.

Not to the limitations of man, who categorises accordingly to their perceptions.

They need to be active to listen and slow in answering, relying on God, and to clothe themselves in gentleness, if they are lacking this and demonstrating this if this is there as a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Coming back to freewill. There is no freewill in the bondage of sin . Yet there is freewill in accepting or rejecting the way out of the bondage of sin, in Jesus the redeemer.

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Romans 11:32

 

[Rockerduck]

Putting in a couple of quotes of Charles Spurgeon and Martin Luther for this discussion.

"It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense".

"Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous".

"Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven".

Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God's purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God's will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.
Charles Spurgeon

"God foreknows nothing by contingency, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His immutable, eternal, and infallible will. By this thunderbolt, "Free-will" is thrown prostrate, and utterly dashed to pieces."

"This error of free will is a special doctrine of the Antichrist"

"All the passages in the Holy Scriptures that mention assistance are they that do away with "free-will", and these are countless...For grace is needed, and the help of grace is given, because "free-will" can do nothing"

"He that will maintain that man's free will is able to do or work anything in spiritual cases, be they never so small, denies Christ".
Martin Luther

 

[*Lavender]

While it's true that all are,or have been in the bondage of sin, there is still the gift of righteousness. Romans 5:17 Through Jesus.
Is a gift forced or offered?

 

[complete]

@Lavender Peace
@PloughBoy
@Rockerduck
@Hekuran

Hello there,

Eve was beguiled by Satan, and consequently chose to act in direct disobedience to God's known will, on the strength of what Satan said: and Adam chose to take of the fruit from her hand, though knowing, firsthand, what God had spoken and the outcome of so doing.

They had the freedom to choose .

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

delete

 

[complete]

While it's true that all are, or have been, in the bondage of sin. There is still the gift of righteousness, Romans 5:17, Through Jesus.
Is a gift forced or offered?

Hello @Lavender Peace,

For a gift to become ours, we have to believe that it exists, and that it is ours for the taking. That requires 'the hearing of faith' (Galatians 3:2 & 5), and not all have ears that will hear, not all have the faith to believe.

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
.. and that not of yourselves:
.... it is the gift of God:
...... Not of works,
........ lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
.. created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
.... which God hath before ordained
...... that we should walk in them.'
(Eph. 2:8-10)

These are just thoughts. For I realise that I have not thought this issue of 'free will' through, with an open Bible, as thoroughly as it requires to reach a conclusion that is not flawed by my own human reasoning.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello complete,
You said - "Eve was beguiled by Satan, and consequently chose to act in direct disobedience to God's known will, on the strength of what Satan said: and Adam chose to take of the fruit from her hand, though knowing, firsthand, what God had spoken and the outcome of so doing.

They had the freedom to choose ".

Man has always had the choice to disobey God and that is rebellion against God's will. Thus consequences will be paid for by the disobedient. Just like Adam and the woman ( her name wasn't Eve yet) and their banishment from Eden (then Adam named her Eve.). Satan is still whispering in the ears of Christian's, saying you have freedom to choose your own path.

There is only God's will and the rebellion against God's will. It will not be free.

 

[complete]

Hello complete,
You said - "Eve was beguiled by Satan, and consequently chose to act in direct disobedience to God's known will, on the strength of what Satan said: and Adam chose to take of the fruit from her hand, though knowing, firsthand, what God had spoken and the outcome of so doing.

They had the freedom to choose ".

Man has always had the choice to disobey God and that is rebellion against God's will. Thus consequences will be paid for by the disobedient. Just like Adam and the woman ( her name wasn't Eve yet) and their banishment from Eden (then Adam named her Eve.). Satan is still whispering in the ears of Christian's, saying you have freedom to choose your own path.

There is only God's will and the rebellion against God's will. It will not be free.

Hello there, @Rockerduck,

Yes, sin has it's consequences, I agree.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[*Lavender]

All to do with how things are worded, at times.
Sometimes people are in agreement but word things differently.

There is a consequence of sin " wages".

Yet by faith, with receiving redemption in Jesus the sin is paid for. Through the covering (garment) of Christ and also the work of God who began the good work but will bring to completion.

Surely this is the gift of righteousness . What comes to mind is Colossians 3:12 Nkjv Therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering. In other bible versions "put on" is replaced by clothe yourself.

Does this refer to the uncrucified parts of a child of God, since it takes time to be perfected, in reference to clothe yourself? Until these fruits are truely there and ripened in the child of God. This makes me think that this behaviour is better than the opposite and is a guidance for conduct, before transformation takes place, providing that hearts are fixed onto God.

 

[Curtis]

No one would be able to choose between life and death if they did not know there was a choice. Man in his spiritual death condition does not know there is a God.

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

You can not seek or believe in what you do not know. You can not experience what you do not believe.

We love God because he "first" loved us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Now that God's grace has appeared to ALL men, ALL men know that God exists and he has a choice to make between life and death.

When did this grace appear to ALL men?

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

In other words the very first act of God in the beginning (let there be light) was to reveal himself to all creation, and mankind before he created it.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Rhema]

Theres a lot of scripture on the foundation of the world and before the foundation of the world.

I posit for your consideration:

The word "foundation" is a noun, not a verb. And yet when people read these "lots" of scriptures they think - the founding of the world (as a verb).

Consider this as well:

The word "before" can mean "prior to" (connoting time value) or "in front of" (connoting spacial value, or location) in both English and Greek.

Prior to an action (verb). -- Brush your teeth before going to bed.
In front of an object (noun). -- Put the horse before the cart.

A cornerstone is laid in the Foundation of a building.

So do these passages mean prior to the act of creation? Or do they mean in front of the Foundation / Cornerstone of the World.

And just who might that Cornerstone be?

Thanks,
Rhema

I personally believe that God gave the gift of freewill.

Indeed, Adam and Eve were created with perfect Freewill. Since the Fall of Man, that Freewill has been damaged beyond recognition - mutated into a thing truly to be pitied.

 

[Rhema]

' Faithful are the wounds of a friend;
but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.'
(Pro 27:6)

The possibility comes to mind that he may think "wounds of a friend" means wounds a friend gives you rather than takes on for you.

(Lost my PloughBoy decoder ring awhile back.)

Rhema

 

[complete]

The possibility comes to mind that he may think "wounds of a friend" means wounds a friend gives you rather than takes on for you.

(Lost my PloughBoy decoder ring awhile back.)

Rhema

Hello @Rhema,

I had good friend, who was much older than myself, who was also a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, and she 'wounded' me on more than one occasion for my good, in speaking truth to me, I valued that for the results was long lasting and pure, It was like the chastening of the Lord to me:-

'Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us,
and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure;
but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous:
nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness
unto them which are exercised thereby.'
(Heb 12:9-11)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I posit for your consideration:

The word "foundation" is a noun, not a verb. And yet when people read these "lots" of scriptures they think - the founding of the world (as a verb).
Consider this as well:
The word "before" can mean "prior to" (connoting time value) or "in front of" (connoting spacial value, or location) in both English and Greek.

Prior to an action (verb). -- Brush your teeth before going to bed.
In front of an object (noun). -- Put the horse before the cart.

A cornerstone is laid in the Foundation of a building.
So do these passages mean prior to the act of creation? Or do they mean in front of the Foundation / Cornerstone of the World.
And just who might that Cornerstone be?

Thanks,
Rhema

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Eph 1:3-6)

Hello again, @Rhema,

In regard to the word 'foundation' that you have highlighted with @Lavender Peace, you will be aware that there are two Greek words translated, 'Foundation' and it is worth looking at the difference in their usage:-

G2602 =' katabole' (meaning:- 'a deposition', ie., 'founding', and figuratively :- 'conception' [ from G2598 ( 'kataballo' ) meaning 'to cast down' ],
Translated:- 'conceive' and 'foundation'.
Usage:- Matthew 13:35; Matthew 25:34; Luke 11:50; John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; Hebrews 4:3;
................ Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 11:11*; 1 Peter 1:20; Revelation 13:8; Revelation 17:8.

* In each case, except for Hebrews 11:11, the words employed are, 'the foundation of the world'. In Hebrews 11:11, it is, 'to conceive seed'.

G2310 = 'Themelios' (meaning:- 'something put down', that is, 'a substruction' (of a building etc.,), literally or figuratively [ a derivative of G5087]
Translated:- 'foundation'.
Usage:- Luke 6:48-49; Luke 14:29; Acts 16:26; Romans 15:20; 1 Corinthians 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:20;
............... 1 Timothy 6:19; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 11:10; Revelation 21:14; Revelation 21:19 (2)

* This word has different applications, referring to the foundation of a building; to the foundation of another man's work; of life; the foundation of God; foundation principles,

* It is the first ( G2606) which @Lavender Peace referred to in her quotation from Ephesians 1:4. Referring to a time 'before' the foundation of the world.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rhema]

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,

Indeed.... chosen us in Him ... in front of the foundation (noun), that is the Cornerstone - Jesus.

Depicting this phrase as a Time Referent action is pure speculative interpretation chosen by the translator in accordance with his religious tradition.

If the text meant ... "Prior to creating the world," then why weren't those words used ?? It is truly a stretch of the imagination to take "in front of a foundation" (or cornerstone) and flip it into meaning "prior to creating."

Look again, reading with context, "The blessing that the God and Father (of our Lord Jesus Christ) chose for us to be in Him was done so in front of Jesus - the Foundation of our Faith - the Cornerstone of our Confession. Why? One might think this was done because Jesus is our mediator and was mediating this "choice" made by the Father. No? How could Jesus be our mediator if choices are not made in front of him?

you will be aware that there are two Greek words translated, 'Foundation'

Indeed I am.

Referring to a time 'before' the foundation of the world.

No, not a time.

Again please note, the word "before" can mean either "prior to" or "in front of." The first does indeed denote a referent of time value, but the second denotes a referent of place value (location).

As a matter of grammar, then, time value referents are attached to actions (written as verbs). Yet oundation is a noun, not a verb.

Place value referents (or locations) are attached to objects (written as nouns). For example, "Park the car before the building," although I will grant that the use of "before" to indicate location (in English) has become obsolete over the last few decades, so much to the point where "before" is nearly automatically changed up inside one's head to mean "prior to." Why the recent change in English? To remove any confusion caused by use of the word "before." We now automatically say "in front of" (the building) instead of "before." But we do say "Before the altar..." to mean "in front of."

So, to remove confusion, either "foundation" needs to be translated as "founding" (or creating), or "before" ought to be written "in front of." Unfortunately the first option changes a noun into a verb, which is not a good thing.

RE: Heb. 11:11
... σαρρα (SARA) δυναμιν (POWER) εις (INTO) καταβολην (FOUNDATION - conception - noun) σπερματος (SEED - spermm) ελαβεν (TOOK HOLD)

The trouble with translation is that poor practices of selecting words and changing nouns into verbs, creates artifacts of nuance that are just NOT in the actual written text. Look at the word "receive." That implies a passive voice, but the actual written text in Greek is 'active' to mean TAKE, not 'passive' to mean RECEIVE, and so another artifact of nuance is created.

In addition, please note, the word "before" is not present in this text, so I don't see how looking at a verse in which the word "before" doesn't exist can help better present the aktionsart of the other verses in question.

Might I ask which Lexicon you are using ??

Having predestinated us unto the adoption

Indeed, the method of adoption was "determined beforehand" as God's plan for the salvation of us. But when? At the formation of the New Covenant.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

(Matthew 16:17 KJV)​

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Curtis]

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

The Bible never in any hole or dot implicitly or explicitly mention any thing about a gift of freewill or the freewill of mankind anywhere.
If you knew your Bible from front to back you would not even make such concerns and your opinion on freewill.
Mankind lost the freedom to choose when he fell in The Garden. And since then He has been in The BONDAGES to Sin. And those who Jesus has purchase by His Blood now have become bond slaves and now they have another Master and Lord who name is Jesus. Until that Coronation Day, when we received our full inheritance of sonship.

For you have proclaim yourself by your own words you have used as a full blown “semi- pelagian” or better yet a “Arminian “ Christian.

our GOD is more powerful than want you think HE Is. For some parts of your text has declared HIM as a little GOD and not Sovereign.

Although our friend in Christ @Lavender Peace seemed a bit sensitive to the tone of your response (I'm not so sure the content),
I agree with you @PloughBoy regarding that point you are making that sinners on their own do not "choose" God. Well said.
You are correct again on that point.

I'm not going to comment on tone because much can be read into text that is not there, but just mentioning for what it is worth
how the originator of the post received it.

 

[Curtis]

did God give us the gift of freewill. Or did He choose His own people regardless of free will?

I think one of the easiest ways to understand God's election, and our free will choice is to use a simple illustration.

Just make pretend that God wanted to start this own baseball team. So he goes and tells everybody that he is starting his own baseball team. God says to everybody "I am starting my own baseball team, whoever wants to be on my team raise up your hand."

He looks out to see who these people are and then says to them, "OK, Everyone with your hand raised up, I choose you to be on my team. Everyone else your on my opponent's team"

Nobody could ever choose to be on God's team until he told them he was starting his own team. We were given the free will choice to choose between life (God's team) or death (the devil's team). Who did God choose to be on his team? God chooses those who choose him.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I think one of the easiest ways to understand God's election, and our free will choice is to use a simple illustration.

Just make pretend that God wanted to start this own baseball team. So he goes and tells everybody that he is starting his own baseball team. God says to everybody "I am starting my own baseball team, whoever wants to be on my team raise up your hand."

He looks out to see who these people are and then says to them, "OK, Everyone with your hand raised up, I choose you to be on my team. Everyone else your on my opponent's team"

Nobody could ever choose to be on God's team until he told them he was starting his own team. We were given the free will choice to choose between life (God's team) or death (the devil's team). Who did God choose to be on his team? God chooses those who choose him.

I love it