The gift of free will.

[PloughBoy]

I think one of the easiest ways to understand God's election, and our free will choice is to use a simple illustration.

Just make pretend that God wanted to start this own baseball team. So he goes and tells everybody that he is starting his own baseball team. God says to everybody "I am starting my own baseball team, whoever wants to be on my team raise up your hand."

He looks out to see who these people are and then says to them, "OK, Everyone with your hand raised up, I choose you to be on my team. Everyone else your on my opponent's team"

Nobody could ever choose to be on God's team until he told them he was starting his own team. We were given the free will choice to choose between life (God's team) or death (the devil's team). Who did God choose to be on his team? God chooses those who choose him.

So I see you have chosen a concept a way of the world as a illustration of how GOD might choose.
Interesting, illustration, when GOD has proclaim, my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not the ways of human mind. Neither can you imagine my ways and ways I do things.

So I would say no one can give a illustration or come near HIS Boundaries How GOD the FATHER does things neither can anyone attempt to approach how HE operates. For that I believe The Holy Scripture teaches.

maybe many of us should read the entire book of JOB again in its entirety.

For. A Refresher.
Course.

For I do think when man looks at words, of this world related to mankind, man seems to put the same limits and garments upon GOD. Who is beyond man’s words and and bound not by man’s thoughts neither is HE held prisoner to mans illustrations.

Far as I have observed through out The Bible He is GOD. And still many do not know what those 3 letters mean although they spell and say the name by reading but still have no concept what that means, you can tell by the words that comes out of the mouths of many.

Very interesting, In the praise report of many.

 

[Rhema]

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before (προ) the world began,

But the word "world" (cosmos) is not found in the Greek text of that verse at all. χρονων, which the KJV translates as "world" is plural so, ... before the WORLDS began? I don't think so. It's obvious then that the KJV cannot be trusted for this verse.

Let's start with the Young's literal:

who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before (προ) the times of the ages,​

(2 Timothy 1:9 YLT)​

YET: The Greek text reads... προ (PREPOSITION) χρονων (NOUN - PLURAL) αιωνιων (ADJECTIVE)

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for προ (pro) - A. I. 3. before, in front of, for the purpose of shielding or guarding, hence also, for, on behalf of

... that was given to us in Christ Jesus ... on behalf of eternal times.

Indeed, he did save us "pro" for the eternal times - Life Eternal.

Rhema

 

[PloughBoy]

But the word "world" (cosmos) is not found in the Greek text of that verse at all. χρονων, which the KJV translates as "world" is plural so, ... before the WORLDS began? I don't think so. It's obvious then that the KJV cannot be trusted for this verse.

Let's start with the Young's literal:

who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before (προ) the times of the ages,​

(2 Timothy 1:9 YLT)​

YET: The Greek text reads... προ (PREPOSITION) χρονων (NOUN - PLURAL) αιωνιων (ADJECTIVE)

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for προ (pro) - A. I. 3. before, in front of, for the purpose of shielding or guarding, hence also, for, on behalf of

... that was given to us in Christ Jesus ... on behalf of eternal times.

Indeed, he did save us "pro" for the eternal times - Life Eternal.

Rhema

Proper wording should have been: “Before all Creation” [GOD the FATHER so ordain it to be for it is of HIS will and not a wish of HIM” for GOD the FATHER is not a wisher But GOD.

So let us go beyond the word “world”and step into “Eternity” for we are and not them the “Creatures” who Have been so ordain of “The GOD ALMIGHTY”.

For we understand the wisdom of man and all his doctoral words and his printed materials and his inland works. And the babes and the special needs who are still excited concerning milk for I do understand the sweetness of its taste and the joy it brings while lying on one’s back with their heels in the sky pumping with Joy.

So in saying all of This, I am on “Curtis’s” side.

 

[Rhema]

Proper wording should have been:

Yeah, well good luck with that.

And no, the words within that verse never applied to "creation." It's just a figment up inside your head.

Rhema

(Ought I to have said a vain imagination?)

 

[PloughBoy]

Yeah, well good luck with that.

And no, the words within that verse never applied to "creation." It's just a figment up inside your head.

Rhema

(Ought I to have said a vain imagination?)

Only a worldly person could even think about. Verses and relate to verses in a Bible as if verses are authoritative or ordain by GOD. GOD gave us a “Book” but only a rogue would think HE gave us 3.14 to digest. And to think in those terms, “Hop Alone Cassidy”

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

But the word "world" (cosmos) is not found in the Greek text of that verse at all. χρονων, which the KJV translates as "world" is plural so, ... before the WORLDS began? I don't think so. It's obvious then that the KJV cannot be trusted for this verse.

Let's start with the Young's literal:

who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before (προ) the times of the ages,​

(2 Timothy 1:9 YLT)​

YET: The Greek text reads... προ (PREPOSITION) χρονων (NOUN - PLURAL) αιωνιων (ADJECTIVE)

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for προ (pro) - A. I. 3. before, in front of, for the purpose of shielding or guarding, hence also, for, on behalf of

... that was given to us in Christ Jesus ... on behalf of eternal times.

Indeed, he did save us "pro" for the eternal times - Life Eternal.

Rhema

@Rhema thanks for sharing your view.

When I look at the verse @Curtis referenced about before the creation of the world, that scripture is also cross-referenced
with Revelation 13:8 which reads "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written
in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. "

and also 1st Peter 1:19-20, which reads
" but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. "

I think your point mentioned is a good one @Rhema in the sense that you are thinking critically and looking to see
if it makes sense (before the world was created) for that word to be translated that way. However,
to take your critical analysis to the next level, I would say don't just look at if that translation makes
sense just within that verse, but see how it compares to the full Cannon of scripture.

One thing that helped me when I was studying this years ago, was to realize that God is eternal as @PloughBoy mentioned
and His ways are not like ours (they are far greater).

If I may give an illustration @Rhema . Look up. Look up at the night sky and see the stars in Job 38:6-7 speaking of creation
which reads
"On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? "

The light that you are seeing @Rhema , those stars that you are seeing, are you looking at them as they are now?
The answer is no, you are not. You are actually looking into the past. You are seeing stars some which don't even exist anymore (because they exploded).

So how is it that you are looking into the past when you look at stars? Well, we see with our eyes, and the light from many of these galaxies are millions
of light years away, which means you are seeing them how they looked a long time ago because it takes time for light to travel, 5.9 trillion miles is a light year.
And when you see the star, that is because the light has finally reached our planet; and by the time we finally see it, that is no longer how it is. You are looking into the
past which has just materialized in your space of the universe.

-- Similarly God set his plan in eternity past and we live in time, and we are just seeing the Salvation
of Jesus the great work, which happened before time was even created. It might be too much for some to grasp but that is ok, as @PloughBoy stated
our minds can't always grasp the magnitude of God's greatness and that is fine. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, Hear and believe.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

@Rhema thanks for sharing your view.

When I look at the verse @Curtis referenced about before the creation of the world, that scripture is also cross-referenced
with Revelation 13:8 which reads "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written
in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. "

and also 1st Peter 1:19-20, which reads
" but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. "

I think your point mentioned is a good one @Rhema in the sense that you are thinking critically and looking to see
if it makes sense (before the world was created) for that word to be translated that way. However,
to take your critical analysis to the next level, I would say don't just look at if that translation makes
sense just within that verse, but see how it compares to the full Cannon of scripture.

One thing that helped me when I was studying this years ago, was to realize that God is eternal as @PloughBoy mentioned
and His ways are not like ours (they are far greater).

If I may give an illustration @Rhema . Look up. Look up at the night sky and see the stars in Job 38:6-7 speaking of creation
which reads
"On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone— while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? "

The light that you are seeing @Rhema , those starts that you are seeing are you looking at them as they are now?
The answer is no, you are not. You are actually looking into the past. You are seeing stars some which don't even exist anymore (because they exploded).

So how is it that you are looking into the past when you look at stars? Well, we see with our eyes, and the light from many of these galaxies are millions
of light years away, which means you are seeing them how they looked a long time ago because the light has finally reached our planet, and by the time
we finally see it, that is no longer how it is. -- Similarly God set his plan in eternity past and we live in time, and we are just seeing the Salvation
of Jesus the great work, which happened before time was even created. It might be too much for some to grasp but that is ok, as @PloughBoy stated
our minds can't always grasp the magnitude of God's greatness and that is fine. Faith come by hearing and hearing the word of God, Hear and believe.

John tells us who that light is, we know the light is Jesus.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind."

So we ask, why were the angels shouting for joy in Job 38:6-7 was it because they marveled at the work of God's hands. Were they shouting
because they were amazing at the creation of the atom with its electrons and protons, were they amazed by the work of the planets forming?
Or perhaps it was the work of Jesus that marveled them. I believe it was Jesus, the true light that made them rejoice in the beginning
from before the creation of the world.

 

[Gregoryp]

So I see you have chosen a concept a way of the world as a illustration of how GOD might choose.
Interesting, illustration, when GOD has proclaim, my thoughts are not your thoughts, my ways are not the ways of human mind. Neither can you imagine my ways and ways I do things.

So I would say no one can give a illustration or come near HIS Boundaries How GOD the FATHER does things neither can anyone attempt to approach how HE operates. For that I believe The Holy Scripture teaches.

maybe many of us should read the entire book of JOB again in its entirety.

For. A Refresher.
Course.

For I do think when man looks at words, of this world related to mankind, man seems to put the same limits and garments upon GOD. Who is beyond man’s words and and bound not by man’s thoughts neither is HE held prisoner to mans illustrations.

Far as I have observed through out The Bible He is GOD. And still many do not know what those 3 letters mean although they spell and say the name by reading but still have no concept what that means, you can tell by the words that comes out of the mouths of many.

Very interesting, In the praise report of many.

As I have stated on these forums often, I am living evidence that some are indeed chosen from childhood. We simply have no choice in the matter, we belong to God from the day we came out of the womb. As I have stated previously, my journey has been long and ardous to this day. Yes I have stumbled and fallen, but due to Gods grace, mercy and perseverance, here I am today. Many are called, few are chosen. And yes some are ignored and he doesnt even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

As I have stated on these forums often, I am living evidence that some are indeed chosen from childhood. We simply have no choice in the matter, we belong to God from the day we came out of the womb. As I have stated previously, my journey has been long and ardous to this day. Yes I have stumbled and fallen, but due to Gods grace, mercy and perseverance, here I am today. Many are called, few are chosen. And yes some are ignored and he doesnt even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

Share more about your point that some are ignored and he[God] doesn't even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

I'm curious to hear more about this as it seems on the surface different from what Jesus taught.

Please expand upon that point. Thank you.

 

[Gregoryp]

Share more about your point that some are ignored and he[God] doesn't even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

I'm curious to hear more about this as it seems on the surface different from what Jesus taught.

Please expand upon that point. Thank you.

Rather than me sit here and write a 200 page essay, someone else has already done so, so here it is. What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

 

[Gregoryp]

Rather than me sit here and write a 200 page essay, someone else has already done so, so here it is. What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org

Who are the elect of God? Does God predestine who will be saved? Is God’s election based on His foreknowledge of who will believe?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Gregoryp]

Share more about your point that some are ignored and he[God] doesn't even bother offering them the gift of salvation.

I'm curious to hear more about this as it seems on the surface different from what Jesus taught.

Please expand upon that point. Thank you.

Romans 9:1–33 ESV - I am speaking the truth in… | Biblia

I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— that I have great sorrow and unceasing...

biblia.com

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Rather than me sit here and write a 200 page essay, someone else has already done so, so here it is. What is predestination? Is predestination biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Thanks for the resource.

However I desire to communicate with you and know what YOU think, not what someone else has articulated.
Hopefully I'm not being lazy.

However, we all read things, yes, and then we come up with our on beliefs.

If someone asked WHO IS JESUS, I could indeed write a 200 page essay, but I could also
summarize in my own words what I believe WHO JESUS IS to me.

We need to know for ourselves what we believe and be able to communicate it with words.

So I would like to know if you can migrated from the research stage on that topic to making it personally
yours by which you have owned it. And if you have owned it, it should be a part of you.

If someone asked me to explain Calculus I would give them a book to read. If they asked me to explain
addition, I could explain that myself. The reason I couldn't explain Calculus to them is because I don't
grasp it firmly enough to explain it. Is that the same reason for your response as such?

Just share briefly what that means to YOU. If you are unable to do so, no worries my friend.

 

[Gregoryp]

Thanks for the resource.

However I desire to communicate with you and know what YOU think, not what someone else has articulated.
Hopefully I'm not being lazy.

However, we all read things, yes, and then we come up with our on beliefs.

If someone asked WHO IS JESUS, I could indeed write a 200 page essay, but I could also
summarize in my own words what I believe WHO JESUS IS to me.

We need to know for ourselves what we believe and be able to communicate it with the word.

So I would like to know if you can migrated from the research stage on that topic to making it personally
yours by which you have owned it. And if you have owned it, it should be a part of you.

Just share briefly what that means to YOU. If you are unable to do so, no worries my friend.

well, I got that information/idea from Romans 9:1. He chooses who he chooses, and denies who he denies. I am and many others are proof of that. Being chosen from a young age and having the holy spirit with me from then has serious life long consequences. I know he chooses and doesnt choose, as I have met many evil people over the last 48 years, and hated me for no reason other than I belong to Christ.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

well, I got that information/idea from Romans 9:1. He chooses who he chooses, and denies who he denies. I am and many others are proof of that. Being chosen from a young age and having the holy spirit with me from then has serious life long consequences. I know he chooses and doesnt choose, as I have met many evil people over the last 48 years, and hated me for no reason other than I belong to Christ.

Thanks for the reply and scripture.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

well, I got that information/idea from Romans 9:1. He chooses who he chooses, and denies who he denies. I am and many others are proof of that. Being chosen from a young age and having the holy spirit with me from then has serious life long consequences. I know he chooses and doesnt choose, as I have met many evil people over the last 48 years, and hated me for no reason other than I belong to Christ.

I'm not debating whether you were chosen from a young age my friend.

Trust me, I look at my life and know exactly what you mean my brother.

We who know, know. There is just something about God's leading hand upon

your life and you see how He pulls you and guides you and is just there even

when you mess up. And you think about how His prevenient Grace has come before

you, I know what you are saying, I experience it too, I agree with you on this point.


--- However what I'm asking about if how you stated that God ignores others.

What are your thoughts that perhaps God does not ignore others but God has

reached out to them but they ignored God? Yes God pursues you and me, you

think that He doesn't pursue others?

I hear about people, drug addicts who get multiple multiple chances to turn

to Christ, they are saved from overdose, again and again, yet they choose

not to turn.


I see God pursuing them as well, not ignoring them.

But you say you think God ignores some, is that correct?

I define ignore in this context as not giving any attention to.

Imagine liking a girl and she "ignores you", meaning she does not

give you any attention or respond to your calls, etc, etc. You ask her

out on a date, but no answer. She IGNORES you -- So do you see God treating some in such a manner, is that what you are saying? God IGNORES some?

 

[Gregoryp]

How can I tell? Because of what is written in the bible. I understand how people would tremble in horror that there own daughter /son would never be offered the gift of salvation, but from my life experiences and scripture, it is indeed so.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

How can I tell? Because of what is written in the bible. I understand how people would tremble in horror that there own daughter /son would never be offered the gift of salvation, but from my life experiences and scripture, it is indeed so.
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.


19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Great scripture. Thanks for sharing. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

Did you find Jesus ignoring anyone? If so who?

I remember Jesus stated that All who the Father give to Him He would in no way cast out.

Perhaps the ones you are speaking of which are "ignored" are those whom the father does not "give" to Jesus?


A short point regarding the scripture about having Mercy on who God will have Mercy. When I think about mercy, I think about
someone pleading for help and God deciding who to say yes to and whom to say no to. That scripture does not speak of
all that has happened before, all the many times mercy was given before and God's Grace was trampled upon.
There are many factors in God's calculations not known to me or you that determines when God gets to the place where
He says No mercy for you. The whole of scripture does not support your position that God starts with this position of "No mercy for you"
at the beginning of His interactions with anyone.

Yes, people get there, like Pharaoh whom God harden His heart. But if you
read the text again, before God harden His heart, Pharaoh made choices and choose to harden his own heart multiple times before
God said, ok I'm done with you, you want to harden your heart, lets give you what you want.

I'm not arguing about the sovereignty of God and God's RIGHT to do as God pleases, we know that God's ways don't have
to make sense to us and God is sovereign. However what I'm exploring is the nature and character of God revealed in Scripture
and looking for a coherent image of our God.

We often pic certain verses and ignore others. For example those who are about love pick the verses on love but ignore judgment.
Those about judgment, pick the verses on judgment but ignore mercy. And you are picking the verses about God's sovereignty but
ignoring God's love and holiness.

Do you know what the Bible reveals as God's number one attribute? Yes God is Love, but it seems that the only attribute
repeated 3 times is God's attribute of Holiness. Holy , Holy, Holy, is the Lord God almighty. This Holy God is different from us, and
in trying to help us understand Him the way He saw fit, He sent Jesus. Jesus is the incarnation of God. God in the flesh.

The Scriptures talk about God, Jesus gives us flesh and bones and a in our face demonstration of who God is. Remember what Jesus
told the Pharisees, He told them that they study they scriptures because in them they thought they have eternal life, but these
were the scriptures that testified of Him. Let us not get lost in the Scriptures and miss Jesus.

So, back to my question. Who did Jesus ignore?

 

[Gregoryp]

Great scripture. Thanks for sharing. Yes, I'm familiar with it.

Did you find Jesus ignoring anyone? If so who?

I remember Jesus stated that All who the Father give to Him He would in no way cast out.

Perhaps the ones you are speaking of which are "ignored" are those whom the father does not "give" to Jesus?


A short point regarding the scripture about having Mercy on who God will have Mercy. When I think about mercy, I think about
someone pleading for help and God deciding who to say yes to and whom to say no to. That scripture does not speak of
all that has happened before, all the many times mercy was given before and God's Grace was trampled upon.

I'm not arguing about the sovereignty of God and God's RIGHT to do as God pleases, we know that God's ways don't have
to make sense to us and God is sovereign. However what I'm exploring is the nature and character of God revealed in Scripture
and looking for a coherent image of our God.

We often pic certain verses and ignore others. For example those who are about love pick the verses on love but ignore judgment.
Those about judgment, pick the verses on judgment but ignore mercy. And you are picking the verses about God's sovereignty but
ignoring God's love and holiness.

Do you know what the Bible reveals as God's number one attribute? Yes God is Love, but it seems that the only attribute given
repeated 3 times is God's attribute of Holiness. Holy , Holy, Holy, is the Lord God almighty. This Holy God is different from us, and
in trying to help us understand Him the way he saw fit, he sent Jesus. Jesus is the incarnation of God. God in the flesh.

The Scriptures talk about God, Jesus gives us flesh and bones and a in our face demonstration of who God is. Remember what Jesus
told the Pharisees, he told them that they study they scriptures because in them they thought they have eternal life, but these
were the scriptures that testified of Him. Let us not get lost in the Scriptures and miss Jesus.

So, back to my question. Who did Jesus ignore?

He ignores those who are not allocated/called. Feed MY sheep says Jesus, not all the sheep, the goats, the dogs, the cats, just HIS sheep. God is soveriegn. I like to share the parable of the purple living room wall we once came across in someones house. All the rest of the walls were painted beige with a white ceiling, except for the western wall which was painted purple. We stared at that wall in utter horror and amazement. WTF, who in there right mind would paint a living room deep purple?? The homeowners response? Just whose house do you think your standing in??!! This is my house and I can paint the house in whatever color I desire, it is of no concern to you.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

He ignores those who are not allocated/called. Feed MY sheep says Jesus, not all the sheep, the goats, the dogs, the cats, just HIS sheep. God is soveriegn. I like to share the parable of the purple living room wall we once came across in someones house. All the rest of the walls were painted beige with a white ceiling, except for the western wall which was painted purple. We stared at that wall in utter horror and amazement. WTF, who in there right mind would paint a living room deep purple?? The homeowners response? Just whose house do you think your standing in??!! This is my house and I can paint the house in whatever color I desire, it is of no concern to you.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic. I'll pray for more wisdom and to mediate on all that has been said thus far.

Good discussing it with you, it was pleasurable. Stay very blessed @Gregoryp .


--On an unrelated point. I like your new profile pic, looks nice.