The Law to Bear Arms, the law of the land

[TheWordIsOne]

The Law to Bear Arms​

Matthew 26:50-52 (NKJV) But Jesus said to him, "Friend, why have you come?" Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him.
And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Genesis 9:5-6 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast, I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother, I will require the life of man.
"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God, He made man.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 To everything there is a season, A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;
A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to throw away;
A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;
A time to love, And a time to hate; A time of war, And a time of peace.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Acts 17:31-32 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter."

2 Peter 3:9-10 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

[Andyindauk]

Hmmm.... most right thinking UK citizens look at the USA's psyche and fascination with guns including the church's muted support for the carrying and use of guns with something between bemusement and incredulity. The UK of course has the strictest gun control laws in the world, there's no hand guns, assault rifles of semi-automatics; you're only allowed single and double barrelled shot guns and to get one of those you have to go through background, psychological strict checks, and a visit from the police to check that you have a lockable gun cabinet and good levels of house security. Guns can only be used for hunting and target practice, to keep one for self protection is a no no. These laws are widely supported and there's no audible calls for any relaxation.

When we see gun death stats from over the pond, we're wondering what's going on there that people are so anti gun control and the arguments put forward seem to make no sense. What I can't grasp is why the church in the USA is so quiet on this subject. From the newsfeeds I see that the population is divided on the subject but if anything, the church tends to veer towards anti-gun control.

The most relevant verse that we can add to the OP's list is Matthew 5:38-40 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

What's your take on this debate, from a Christian perspective?

 

[Gregoryp]

Be aware Mathew 5:38 - 40 was aimed at the jews, as they were in exile with the romans. The romans were there master and they were to obey there commands and wishes. Otherwise there exile would have been even more difficult. In actuality you dont let people walk over you, you turn and walk away. Revenge however is not the answer, it just causes more strife.

 

[Andyindauk]

Be aware Mathew 5:38 - 40 was aimed at the jews, as they were in exile with the romans. The romans were there master and they were to obey there commands and wishes. Otherwise there exile would have been even more difficult. In actuality you dont let people walk over you, you turn and walk away. Revenge however is not the answer, it just causes more strife.

Hi Gregory, I'm really sorry mate but I really disagree with you on this one. I'd warn you to be really careful about dismissing any Bible passage as being written for someone else or another era or generation. If that's the conclusion you draw from a Bible passage, you've either misread it or misinterpreted it.

The audience to whom Jesus was addressing His sermon on the mount was you and I. It's even more relevant today than it was then.

Jesus was trying to explain that God's law was more than difficult, it's impossible. He reinterpreted the 10 commandments to scupper any idea that if you behaved yourself and kept your head down, you've kept them and will qualify for Heaven. Take for example-

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21‭-‬22 NKJV

In other words, you don't have to kill someone to commit murder, you just have to hate them without good cause. Again -

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:27‭-‬28 NKJV

You don't have to seduce and sleep with a married woman to commit adultery, you just need to look at her and fancy her. Now anyone with a libido has transgressed that one.

What's really amazing is that Jesus kept even to the letter this stricter interpretation of God's law. This was demonstrated at Calvary where He offered more than His left cheek to His enemies.

No, Jesus couldn't have been been less interested in the Roman occupation, He couldn't even be bothered speaking to Herod.

The lessons of the Sermon on the Mount are, if you truly want to be Christlike to the delight of the God we adore, then that's what you need to be like.

If you think that that bar's set too high, have a word with God and ask for His help by sending His Holy Spirit to help you.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hmmm.... most right thinking UK citizens look at the USA's psyche and fascination with guns including the church's muted support for the carrying and use of guns with something between bemusement and incredulity. The UK of course has the strictest gun control laws in the world, there's no hand guns, assault rifles of semi-automatics; you're only allowed single and double barrelled shot guns and to get one of those you have to go through background, psychological strict checks, and a visit from the police to check that you have a lockable gun cabinet and good levels of house security. Guns can only be used for hunting and target practice, to keep one for self protection is a no no. These laws are widely supported and there's no audible calls for any relaxation.

When we see gun death stats from over the pond, we're wondering what's going on there that people are so anti gun control and the arguments put forward seem to make no sense. What I can't grasp is why the church in the USA is so quiet on this subject. From the newsfeeds I see that the population is divided on the subject but if anything, the church tends to veer towards anti-gun control.

The most relevant verse that we can add to the OP's list is Matthew 5:38-40 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

What's your take on this debate, from a Christian perspective?

Did you know that in Switzerland it the law that every citizen has a gun? Do you know the crime statistics for that country? Less than the UK! Gun deaths? Less than the UK. The stats are always cooked to prove guns kill....What a crock! You anti gun people depend too much on lies to make your point

 

[Andyindauk]

Did you know that in Switzerland it the law that every citizen has a gun? Do you know the crime statistics for that country? Less than the UK! Gun deaths? Less than the UK. The stats are always cooked to prove guns kill....What a crock! You anti gun people depend too much on lies to make your point

Hi Admon, I looked it up. In 2022 so far (and we're only 1/2 way through the year) per 100,000 citizens USA records 12.21 gun related deaths, Switzerland is 3.05 and the UK is 0.26.

Not sure where you get your info that every Swiss has to have a gun?

I'm not anti-gun per se, I'm just questioning the logic behind countries with liberal gun laws and sky high death rates.

I note you didn’t get round to addressing my point, why would a believing born again Christlike Christian carry a gun given all the Biblical teaching on avoiding violence and retribution as quoted above? Put another way: if Jesus lived in Boston, would He carry a gun?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon, I looked it up. In 2022 so far (and we're only 1/2 way through the year) per 100,000 citizens USA records 12.21 gun related deaths, Switzerland is 3.05 and the UK is 0.26.

Not sure where you get your info that every Swiss has to have a gun?

I'm not anti-gun per se, I'm just questioning the logic behind countries with liberal gun laws and sky high death rates.

I note you didn’t get round to addressing my point, why would a believing born again Christlike Christian carry a gun given all the Biblical teaching on avoiding violence and retribution as quoted above? Put another way: if Jesus lived in Boston, would He carry a gun?

The right to bear arms is not liberal....Its common sense...If someone comes at you with a gun, will you defend yourself with a stick? A knife to a gunfight?

 

[Andyindauk]

The right to bear arms is not liberal....Its common sense...If someone comes at you with a gun, will you defend yourself with a stick? A knife to a gunfight?

This is what Jesus would do -

But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Matthew 26:52 NKJV

 

[PloughBoy]

The Whole world is evil, and lives in total darkness a biblical fact. “There is None Good No not One!

GOD is going to only save a few, by grace. Everybody deserves damnation whether they Carry a Gun or A Toothpick!

The Majority of This modern day Christianity do not believe in none of theses words! They have many avenues to escape simple biblical truths. And they have developed a Art to watered The Biblical Truths down with “Lukewarm”.

World English Bible
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

American King James Version
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness.

American Standard Version
We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the evil one.

 

[PloughBoy]

The right to bear arms is not liberal....Its common sense...If someone comes at you with a gun, will you defend yourself with a stick? A knife to a gunfight?

You tell them to “Shoot”! And make sure their aim is sure!

And you let them know that you fear no man! Pull The Trigger!

Let them know you are The Real Deal!

Paul proclaimed:

21For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22Philippians 1 New American Standard BibleBut if I am to liveon in the flesh, this will meanfruitful labor for me; and I do not know [v]which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from bothdirections, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for thatis very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is morenecessary for your sakes

“A Child of GOD’s death is “Glorious” and it seems the more Violent it is The More “Victorious” it is, So, let The Prepetrator know who you are by Claiming That “Jesus Christ” the Son of The Living GOD is Your LORD!

Pull The Trigger!

And we should Train up our Children in a way they Should Go!

And how to speak in dark Times!

 

[Waggles]

So when the Romans rounded up the Pentecostal Christians of the NT church and fed them to lions in the Colosseum for sport, these Christians took up swords and attacked their Roman persecutors ??

 

[Waggles]

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna.

1Peter 3:14 But even if ye should suffer for righteousness’ sake, blessed ye: and fear not their fear, neither be troubled;
15 but sanctify in your hearts the Christ as Lord: ready always with an answer to every one that asks you a reason concerning the hope in you, yet with meekness and fear:
16 having a good conscience; that, wherein ye are spoken against, they may be shamed who revile your good behaviour in Christ.

1Peter 4:14 If ye are reproached in Christ’s name, blessed ye; because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
15 For let none of you suffer as a murderer, or thief, or evil-doer, or as an inspector of others:
16 but if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God in this name.

 

[Waggles]

Romans 12:17 Render to none evil for evil. Take thought for things honourable in sight of all men.
12:18 If possible, as much as in you is, be at peace with all men.
12:19 Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will recompense, says the Lord.
12:20 But if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for doing thus thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.
12:21 Be not thou overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[MedicBravo]

@TheWordIsOne
People often misunderstand "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword." - This entire altercation says so much. For one, Peter (?) was trying to prevent prophesy by preventing his arrest. Likely all but Judas were overcome with emotions mostly fear.
A group of well trained soldiers vs untrained common people would have resulted in them all being killed or imprisoned.
The phrase does not condemn all violence. Jesus always spoke clearly and with authority. This was a warning to those soldiers and to anyone who lives a similar life. Police. Fire. EMS. Military. These groups are exposed to violence far more than those who don't work in these careers. If one is going into them it must be careful consideration.
It is also warning against living a life of violence. It is a warning about improper and ease of use of it. The context of the situation matters. Road rage does not warrant killing the offender. Revenge. Petty insults. Adultery. Sporting events.
Know when to and when not to engage. You will have to verbally and physically engage the enemy.

• David & Goliath. Self explanatory. Not only did he kill him with a rock/stone but he further instilled fear in the enemy by cutting off his head.
• Jewish people - Several times God used them and has used us in defense of others and to stop evil.
• Someone breaking into your home. He would never expect you to do nothing and any criminal with half a brain won't leave witnesses. Kidnap or kill is what they will do. You've every right to use violence here.
• Spouse physical abuse. Note: Both sexes abuse their spouses. God would never expect a woman to stay with an abusive husband.
• Child abuse. Most children are not mature or big enough to hold their own and the spouse may have to step in.
• Police. Fire. EMS. Military. As a Veteran myself I can assure you there are a lot of Christians of various denominations in our military. The Army has a Chaplain which is an officer only MOS. He is no t allowed to carry a weapon but the Chaplains Assistant (Enlisted) does for the Chaplain and his/her protection. Evil does not care if you are armed or not.
• Assault in public. Common sense people. The public far outnumber the combined number of police and military.

By all means it is your subjective choice to do nothing but all actions have consequences.

 

[PloughBoy]

@TheWordIsOne
People often misunderstand "Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword." - This entire altercation says so much. For one, Peter (?) was trying to prevent prophesy by preventing his arrest. Likely all but Judas were overcome with emotions mostly fear.
A group of well trained soldiers vs untrained common people would have resulted in them all being killed or imprisoned.
The phrase does not condemn all violence. Jesus always spoke clearly and with authority. This was a warning to those soldiers and to anyone who lives a similar life. Police. Fire. EMS. Military. These groups are exposed to violence far more than those who don't work in these careers. If one is going into them it must be careful consideration.
It is also warning against living a life of violence. It is a warning about improper and ease of use of it. The context of the situation matters. Road rage does not warrant killing the offender. Revenge. Petty insults. Adultery. Sporting events.
Know when to and when not to engage. You will have to verbally and physically engage the enemy.

• David & Goliath. Self explanatory. Not only did he kill him with a rock/stone but he further instilled fear in the enemy by cutting off his head.
• Jewish people - Several times God used them and has used us in defense of others and to stop evil.
• Someone breaking into your home. He would never expect you to do nothing and any criminal with half a brain won't leave witnesses. Kidnap or kill is what they will do. You've every right to use violence here.
• Spouse physical abuse. Note: Both sexes abuse their spouses. God would never expect a woman to stay with an abusive husband.
• Child abuse. Most children are not mature or big enough to hold their own and the spouse may have to step in.
• Police. Fire. EMS. Military. As a Veteran myself I can assure you there are a lot of Christians of various denominations in our military. The Army has a Chaplain which is an officer only MOS. He is no t allowed to carry a weapon but the Chaplains Assistant (Enlisted) does for the Chaplain and his/her protection. Evil does not care if you are armed or not.
• Assault in public. Common sense people. The public far outnumber the combined number of police and military.

By all means it is your subjective choice to do nothing but all actions have consequences.

Before I commented anything, I thought I would review the Threads Title:

“The Law to Bear Arms, the law of the land”​

Well, that’s says it all.

: “Then Enter The Law of GOD”

“when you entered The Neighboring Lands”

Any “Theologians” in The House or Religious Rulers or Biblical Scholars, if not, so what, not many wise men or Nobles were called anyhow. Let us all, state our case.

Because The World Will “Police and govern” it’s own. For Even “GOD” gave The Devil, His Power!

Is that not something; For even “Jesus Christ” is The Devil’s LORD!

“When Jesus told The Devil to do something, the devil and demons obeyed Him!

Jesus Christ has All power in Heaven and on Earth, Even The PowerThe Devil has was given to Him By Jesus, because It Was His Father’s will for Him to do so.

Even Pilate, got His Power from Jesus The Word of GOD, because it was The Will of The Father For Jesus To do so.

This is getting to be very Interesting, concerning This “Threads Title”.

“The Law to Bear Arms, the law of the land”​

American Standard Version
Jesus answered him, Thou wouldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above:

Jesus Always had all Power in Heaven and on Earth, He is The Creator of All creation:

Some think, that he received All power when He got up From The Grave. And That is sad


American Standard Version
And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.”

Only one way, one can come to that conclusion, is Not Understand “The Biblical Text” of “Holy Scripture” not understand Who “The WORD of GOD” is. The WORD became Flesh and dwell among us …ff.

Yes GOD is “SOVEREIGN” and All power is in His Hands. Even death and life. No one can die or be Killed unless The Death Angel has Been commission to Exercise its GOD given Power! And To carry out “GOD’s Command.

WOW,

“truly His Ways Are Not Our Ways, Niether are His Thoughts like our Thoughts”

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Luke 3:14
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

 

[MedicBravo]

@StewardoftheMystery
Luke 3 - The Work of John the Baptist. You can't leave out preceding and following verses. You can't open a book to any part and understand or enjoy any of it from a small part. When referencing you can use verses but without understanding the author, purpose, time period, and the rest of the book then those verses effectiveness is almost lost.
Verses 10-14 are "John's Message to specific individuals.
10 - 14 "John's message to specific individuals
"Do no more than what is appointed for you. Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
*The Romans taxed by auctioning the rights to collects taxes to the highest bidder. The tax collector would cover his costs AND make a profit by getting as much as he could and that is why they were hated so much.

Matthew 10 - The Sending of the Twelve (Twelve disciples chosen and commissioned.)
Verse 16 Jesus prepares the disciples for persecution. (It will come.)
"Behond I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Think before you act. Speak when you must and stay silent when you must.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Verses 10-14 are "John's Message to specific individuals.
10 - 14 "John's message to specific individuals
"Do no more than what is appointed for you. Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
*The Romans taxed by auctioning the rights to collects taxes to the highest bidder. The tax collector would cover his costs AND make a profit by getting as much as he could and that is why they were hated so much.

Matthew 10 - The Sending of the Twelve (Twelve disciples chosen and commissioned.)
Verse 16 Jesus prepares the disciples for persecution. (It will come.)
"Behond I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." Think before you act. Speak when you must and stay silent when you must.

I once had a debate in another forum with this guy, and if I quoted the OT or Jesus he would say that is not for us, it was only for the Jews. Same with the book of Hebrews, he said it was not for him, but only for the Hebrews.

So I said, well the book of Romans was written to those in Rome, and Corinthians written to those in Corinth etc. So if it is not addressing you “specifically” then you must have a very small Bible.

But we know this….

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

And this….

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

[MedicBravo]

This person needs to learn there is a difference.
What was not given to us is still relevant. It is all history except for Revelation.
The Civil and Ceremonial laws given to Israel were not for us. We don't kill animals on some altar in forgiveness for sins. We're not under the dietary restrictions as "all animals were made clean" and "It is not what goes into a person's mouth that makes him/her unclean but what comes out of it." Generally, given one's health and body that diet is relatively harmless. Making it a part of one's life doesn't add bonus Holy points and make them "better" nor us worse for not doing it. It was to separate Israel from the pagans and could be another way to show one's devotion to God.
Seeing the Bible as a historic and religious book we cannot ignore the mistakes of the past. It is all relevant. It shows where some churches were doing right but had done wrong less vs more churches who were so far off.
Look at the Christian churches of any denomination. A high majority of Christian churches and leaders are jacked up. That's a whole other topic.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

@StewardoftheMystery , @Admon Mikha'el , @Andyindauk , @MedicBravo , @PloughBoy , @Waggles ,

Great discussion, please allow me to jump into the mix and hopefully contribute as well as learn.
I'm replying to the point about if Christians should have arms to protect themselves.

Thinking about how our Lord and Savior would answer the question, often going to the heart of the issue.
This comes to mind.

I think the real question is not about if a Christian should or should not have a gun?
I think the real question is where is your faith, and who do you trust to protect you?

If the gun becomes an idol for protection and stops one from fully depending on God, than
that is a problem.

However I do believe that many can have a firearm for protection, and not put their
faith and trust in it, but just use out of wisdom and not total fear. For example, there
are times in the Bible when God instructed the children of Hebrew to attack other
nations (they did this with weapons). Or David to take up arms, against Goliath.

In Summary: I could see God telling a believer who has a gun and is trusting in the gun for safety to
get rid of it, and put their trust in God.

I can also see God telling a believer who does not have a gun to get one, because
God in His foresight, sees that they will be the victim of a home robbery soon.

So ultimately I think it is about where do you put your trust. With that said, for those
who have guns, similar to those who have a lot of money, it is very hard to not put your trust in it.
Which means that the route of not having a gun is likely best, unless God directs you to.